Update 37 Wall of Frost Changes

ESO_Nightingale

Hi everyone! It's me again with another post, (though this time quite short) regarding changes for frost wardens. As always it's directed towards @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_GinaBruno.

We've received 1 small change to wall of frost this patch (in addition to seeing a lovely change to cutting dive to see it drop it's silly off-balance condition).

Wall of Frost and its morphs will now apply Minor Breach and reduce the movement speed of enemies by 40% for 4 seconds when damaging a Chilled target, rather than Immobilized them for 4 seconds.

Developer Comment:

In efforts to help reduce the amount of passive crowd control in the game, we’re shifting the power of Wall of Frost’s control to a snare, rather than an immobilize, while helping it gain some more use cases in PvE parts of the game.

I think this change is certainly nice for players playing against the skill in pvp environments and for tanks and supports in pve environments, but i still feel that damage dealers would be better off with a different chilled based effect on unstable wall of elements, one that is more effective for damage dealing directly. As is, an increased cost for so many supportive based effects on our wall is relatively unhelpful when focused on being a damage dealer. I think it would be more beneficial to split up blockade and unstable wall of frost to each have a different focus. I believe that Blockade of Frost should retain these buffs, while Unstable Wall of Frost should have it's damage shields removed and cost reverted to match the other wall of element variations, while having it's chilled based effect swapped to deal more damage in some way. This way you could choose to either be more supportive, or to deal as much damage as possible. We have seen the massive success with having frost skill morphs focusing on either damage dealing or tanking/support. As this way, both types of players can get to have their cake and enjoy it too!

Thanks everyone. Enjoy the patch cycle.

Araneae6537

Might applying brittle be good for a damage morph of ice wall?

ESO_Nightingale

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Might applying brittle be good for a damage morph of ice wall?

Brittle is already applied by applying chilled. So it would basically read like "when you deal damage to an enemy affected by chilled you also apply minor brittle" which seems a little redundant. You want some sort of damage bonus to it unrelated to some sort of minor debuff as minor debuffs don't stack.

thadjarvis

Fissure's purpose is the AOE minor breach. Isn't this change essentially removing a Warden debuff as supports run frost staffs.

Soarora

I quite liked the immobilize, I’ll miss it. But I understand the usefulness in the slow. I don’t understand why the cost has to be higher for ice at all, though. No one’s going to use it apart from supports and brittledens anyways, despite the defensive capabilities.

thadjarvis wrote: »

Fissure's purpose is the AOE minor breach. Isn't this change essentially removing a Warden debuff as supports run frost staffs.

Out of all the PvE content I’ve done, I’ve only had to use fissure once and it was for major breach because the tank didn’t have caltrops. While it is taking away from the uniqueness of fissure, I don’t think it’ll actually make a difference.

ESO_Nightingale

thadjarvis wrote: »

Fissure's purpose is the AOE minor breach. Isn't this change essentially removing a Warden debuff as supports run frost staffs.

in a way, yes, but i personally still use sub assault in pve content. it's technically a buff for me in solo content, but it'd be much better if unstable wall of frost gained some sort of damage benefit from chilled instead of remaining supportive since a snare and minor breach can't exactly stack in trials. tanks and supports are using frost staves too so you'll have 100% uptime on the snare and minor breach making the effect relatively the same thing as it is on live for dps. frost reach/frost clench, arctic blast/polar wind and winter's revenge/gripping shards have all shown that having 1 morph focus on tanking and 1 morph to focus on dps is a fantastic way to get both morphs to be used. no-one likes dead morphs.

selig_fay

Soarora wrote: »

I quite liked the immobilize, I’ll miss it. But I understand the usefulness in the slow.

From what I understand they are just trying to destroy the frost warden tank in pvp. Previously, it was possible to make a big status chance and control the area, because permanent immobilization is a problem for melee characters. At the same time, you defended well against ranged combat with an ice shield. Now it's literally all pointless, but tanks save their soft control in pve.

ESO_Nightingale

selig_fay wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I quite liked the immobilize, I’ll miss it. But I understand the usefulness in the slow.

From what I understand they are just trying to destroy the frost warden tank in pvp. Previously, it was possible to make a big status chance and control the area, because permanent immobilization is a problem for melee characters. At the same time, you defended well against ranged combat with an ice shield. Now it's literally all pointless, but tanks save their soft control in pve.

destroy is a strong word, but they're definitely trying to rein it back. builds focused on mass aoe cc are notoriously annoying to fight against so i understand why they're doing it.

selig_fay

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I quite liked the immobilize, I’ll miss it. But I understand the usefulness in the slow.

From what I understand they are just trying to destroy the frost warden tank in pvp. Previously, it was possible to make a big status chance and control the area, because permanent immobilization is a problem for melee characters. At the same time, you defended well against ranged combat with an ice shield. Now it's literally all pointless, but tanks save their soft control in pve.

destroy is a strong word, but they're definitely trying to rein it back. builds focused on mass aoe cc are notoriously annoying to fight against so i understand why they're doing it.

Well it's destroued for me. Slow is still useful and as far as I remember they can be combined, but I'm not interested in that. Perhaps if it also slowed down actions for players and non-bosses, it would be interesting even at the 30% level. But I think people will hate it more than rooting, because it means you hit slower, your opponents block more often, you end up with less damage, and you may not have time to use a certain ability.
I'll just reorient myself to a healer and try to catch all the projectiles to generate an ult for the life giver, since zos wants it)

ESO_Nightingale

selig_fay wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I quite liked the immobilize, I’ll miss it. But I understand the usefulness in the slow.

From what I understand they are just trying to destroy the frost warden tank in pvp. Previously, it was possible to make a big status chance and control the area, because permanent immobilization is a problem for melee characters. At the same time, you defended well against ranged combat with an ice shield. Now it's literally all pointless, but tanks save their soft control in pve.

destroy is a strong word, but they're definitely trying to rein it back. builds focused on mass aoe cc are notoriously annoying to fight against so i understand why they're doing it.

Well it's destroued for me. Slow is still useful and as far as I remember they can be combined, but I'm not interested in that. Perhaps if it also slowed down actions for players and non-bosses, it would be interesting even at the 30% level. But I think people will hate it more than rooting, because it means you hit slower, your opponents block more often, you end up with less damage, and you may not have time to use a certain ability.
I'll just reorient myself to a healer and try to catch all the projectiles to generate an ult for the life giver, since zos wants it)

Well I'm sorry to hear that. It should hopefully be less frustrating to deal with on the recieving end, which i believe is a good thing as no-one likes to be showered with immobilizations. But i hope that you enjoy your healer.

Whiskey_JG

That cutting dive change - OMG finally!!!

I spent 2 years trying out every single spammable out there, just to avoid using cutting dive. It was nearly impossible to keep track of off-balance in trials/dungeons. You could say that it was definitely not beginner friendly, so this was a much needed change.

Although I understand that wall of elements is still not a good option for Frost DPS, but this change is a good one. the ability to apply minor breach in AOE is significant. Honestly this mini change is getting me excited to play warden tank again.

It's a step in the right direction that was sorely needed.

Let's see how things develop

MashmalloMan

I concur!

Mr_Stach

Hey Y'all another PTS cycle another look at Warden, more not-so-hot takes from me.
Wall of Frost

• My monkey brain thoughts on wall of frost things, Wall of frost losing imob isn't the end of the world, slow is still useful, we still have a hard CC. But the Imob on chilled targets was just a nice flair aspect. but ultimately the slow will probably be more useful. Also making people randomly CC immune vs choosing the CC immunity timing has it's perks, it will ultimately be better I think.
• Wall of Frost doing minor Breach however, I think a universal source of Minor Breach is fine, the issue. Frost Staff is also glued to Warden through passives, Deep Fissure also has Minor Breach. I think this level of redundancy should be looked at. some people last PTS cycle were very vocal about how overloaded Deep Fissure is with both Minor and Major Breach, this could be an opportunity to remove Minor Breach and add something different to take it's place that adds to the flavor of Warden.

Deep Fissure
If nothing else at least I'm consistent, with Frost Wall having Minor Breach, we could remove it from Deep Fissure and do that thing we talked about last time:

Frost Shalks. yeah yeah. One Trick pony. I get it. But an additional source of Brittle would be nice.

Cutting Dive
A very good change, I've ALWAYS disliked the off-balance hoop. Now remove it from the other morph.

Slab & Shield

• Generally making the morphs more distinct and making each cast more important is good.
• More Ult for Shield is Great
• The Nerf for Slab damage is fine, BUT I'm not and never will be a fan of large damage nerfs or buffs. I would rather smaller increments. hopefully throughout the cycle we can work with this so it's still feels good to use and is still something to worry about for ranged attackers.

ESO_Nightingale

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

That cutting dive change - OMG finally!!!

I spent 2 years trying out every single spammable out there, just to avoid using cutting dive. It was nearly impossible to keep track of off-balance in trials/dungeons. You could say that it was definitely not beginner friendly, so this was a much needed change.

Although I understand that wall of elements is still not a good option for Frost DPS, but this change is a good one. the ability to apply minor breach in AOE is significant. Honestly this mini change is getting me excited to play warden tank again.

It's a step in the right direction that was sorely needed.

Let's see how things develop

Yeah the cutting dive change is awesome. My argument for frost wall is that having both morphs do minor breach is kinda redundant when there could be a dps and support morph in unstable wall and blockade respectively.

The tank/dps morph choice works extremely well.

OBJnoob

@Mr_Stach Well I have one major disagreement with you and it's about two things you said. Number one... Wall of Frost is not a Warden skill. So whatever was done to it really doesn't matter much in a Warden discussion.

Now I'm not trying to be oblivious-- I'm aware a TON of wardens used it. But not only wardens use it. Ice staves has become a lot more popular for everyone (this is from a pvp perspective btw,) as a back bar weapon. Because of elemental susceptibility, really, but Wall of Elements just happens to be a way to keep your back bar weapon enchant proccing even when you're on front bar.

That's why people were complaining about being immobilized constantly. If wardens ONLY wanted an AoE immobilize well guess what they already have one. It's called gripping shards and it's what I was using on my warden.

But so... Getting to my ACTUAL point. Since Wall isn't a Warden skill, there is absolutely no reason to remove minor breach from the warden toolkit just because it got added to some weapon ability. Having major and minor breach on their delayed burst skill IS a Warden thing. What could you possibly add to be "more warden"??

I get that the breach might not be very useful for PvE (if you're not a tank,) but so don't they use the other morph instead? Minor breach (without sacrificing an existing bar space for it,) is very useful in PvP. Wardens don't exactly need help in PvP, but their damage isn't as good as their survivability. Don't remove minor breach. It will be a nerf.

Mr_Stach

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

That cutting dive change - OMG finally!!!

I spent 2 years trying out every single spammable out there, just to avoid using cutting dive. It was nearly impossible to keep track of off-balance in trials/dungeons. You could say that it was definitely not beginner friendly, so this was a much needed change.

Although I understand that wall of elements is still not a good option for Frost DPS, but this change is a good one. the ability to apply minor breach in AOE is significant. Honestly this mini change is getting me excited to play warden tank again.

It's a step in the right direction that was sorely needed.

Let's see how things develop

Yeah the cutting dive change is awesome. My argument for frost wall is that having both morphs do minor breach is kinda redundant when there could be a dps and support morph in unstable wall and blockade respectively.

I think having morphs really differentiate what Wall of Elements do would be a good step forward. Breach is great for Barricade as a Utility skill for a Tanky/Healer for Brittle/Slow/Breach, it's great. But Unstable could really have a different spice, maybe enemies hit by the unstable explosion are knocked off balance or are dealt more damage if they are chilled.

Mr_Stach

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Mr_Stach Well I have one major disagreement with you and it's about two things you said. Number one... Wall of Frost is not a Warden skill. So whatever was done to it really doesn't matter much in a Warden discussion.

Now I'm not trying to be oblivious-- I'm aware a TON of wardens used it. But not only wardens use it. Ice staves has become a lot more popular for everyone (this is from a pvp perspective btw,) as a back bar weapon. Because of elemental susceptibility, really, but Wall of Elements just happens to be a way to keep your back bar weapon enchant proccing even when you're on front bar.

That's why people were complaining about being immobilized constantly. If wardens ONLY wanted an AoE immobilize well guess what they already have one. It's called gripping shards and it's what I was using on my warden.

But so... Getting to my ACTUAL point. Since Wall isn't a Warden skill, there is absolutely no reason to remove minor breach from the warden toolkit just because it got added to some weapon ability. Having major and minor breach on their delayed burst skill IS a Warden thing. What could you possibly add to be "more warden"??

I get that the breach might not be very useful for PvE (if you're not a tank,) but so don't they use the other morph instead? Minor breach (without sacrificing an existing bar space for it,) is very useful in PvP. Wardens don't exactly need help in PvP, but their damage isn't as good as their survivability. Don't remove minor breach. It will be a nerf.

You can disagree with, I won't even be mad. My point is Last Patch Zos took some very large steps to staple Frost Staff to Warden. Then this Patch they introduce a change that introduces something makes the Frost Staff Stapled Warden have some redundancy.

I personally think that slapping major & minor buffs onto abilities is boring as a mechanical feature when you could make more interesting things happen with abilities. But your Point 100% has merit. Frost Staff isn't technically Warden specific, so it getting Minor Breach doesn't immediately mean that Minor Breach on Deep Fissure is redundant. It just feels that way with how they have been pushing warden lately, for me.

yadibroz

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hi everyone! It's me again with another post, (though this time quite short) regarding changes for frost wardens. As always it's directed towards @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_GinaBruno.

We've received 1 small change to wall of frost this patch (in addition to seeing a lovely change to cutting dive to see it drop it's silly off-balance condition).

Wall of Frost and its morphs will now apply Minor Breach and reduce the movement speed of enemies by 40% for 4 seconds when damaging a Chilled target, rather than Immobilized them for 4 seconds.

Developer Comment:

In efforts to help reduce the amount of passive crowd control in the game, we’re shifting the power of Wall of Frost’s control to a snare, rather than an immobilize, while helping it gain some more use cases in PvE parts of the game.

I think this change is certainly nice for players playing against the skill in pvp environments and for tanks and supports in pve environments, but i still feel that damage dealers would be better off with a different chilled based effect on unstable wall of elements, one that is more effective for damage dealing directly. As is, an increased cost for so many supportive based effects on our wall is relatively unhelpful when focused on being a damage dealer. I think it would be more beneficial to split up blockade and unstable wall of frost to each have a different focus. I believe that Blockade of Frost should retain these buffs, while Unstable Wall of Frost should have it's damage shields removed and cost reverted to match the other wall of element variations, while having it's chilled based effect swapped to deal more damage in some way. This way you could choose to either be more supportive, or to deal as much damage as possible. We have seen the massive success with having frost skill morphs focusing on either damage dealing or tanking/support. As this way, both types of players can get to have their cake and enjoy it too!

Thanks everyone. Enjoy the patch cycle.

I can't complain anymore finally ice warden can have a ice breach skill.

ESO_Nightingale

yadibroz wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hi everyone! It's me again with another post, (though this time quite short) regarding changes for frost wardens. As always it's directed towards @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_GinaBruno.

We've received 1 small change to wall of frost this patch (in addition to seeing a lovely change to cutting dive to see it drop it's silly off-balance condition).

Wall of Frost and its morphs will now apply Minor Breach and reduce the movement speed of enemies by 40% for 4 seconds when damaging a Chilled target, rather than Immobilized them for 4 seconds.

Developer Comment:

In efforts to help reduce the amount of passive crowd control in the game, we’re shifting the power of Wall of Frost’s control to a snare, rather than an immobilize, while helping it gain some more use cases in PvE parts of the game.

I think this change is certainly nice for players playing against the skill in pvp environments and for tanks and supports in pve environments, but i still feel that damage dealers would be better off with a different chilled based effect on unstable wall of elements, one that is more effective for damage dealing directly. As is, an increased cost for so many supportive based effects on our wall is relatively unhelpful when focused on being a damage dealer. I think it would be more beneficial to split up blockade and unstable wall of frost to each have a different focus. I believe that Blockade of Frost should retain these buffs, while Unstable Wall of Frost should have it's damage shields removed and cost reverted to match the other wall of element variations, while having it's chilled based effect swapped to deal more damage in some way. This way you could choose to either be more supportive, or to deal as much damage as possible. We have seen the massive success with having frost skill morphs focusing on either damage dealing or tanking/support. As this way, both types of players can get to have their cake and enjoy it too!

Thanks everyone. Enjoy the patch cycle.

I can't complain anymore finally ice warden can have a ice breach skill.

I'm honestly happy that they took the 2 most obnoxious parts of frost warden and scaled them back significantly without negatively effecting pve dps at all. i think the changes to the immobilise spam and crysallized shield skill+morphs were extremely reasonable. my only issue, however small it may seem is that unstable wall of frost is still so supportive when we've got 2 morphs for the skill.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

Mr_Stach

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I concur!

yep. the changes are good, but there are still some underlying problems with frost dps skills.

There are definitely things to work on, and I'd like to unhinge Warden from Frost Staff (Which I doubt Zos will do at this point), but it's a weird thing, like Frost Warden is in a Goodish Spot, But I feel like the big gaps come from things like Destro Staff still being weak as a weapon.

• Wall of Frost should have a larger divide between the morphs, one for Utility and one for DPS. having Breach and Slows on Unstable is pretty pointless as a damage dealer.
• Impulse - Pulsar providing Minor Protection is fine but for Elemental Ring, the "AoE DPS Morph" Minor Protection is useless. Maybe Frost Ring leaves frozen puddles on the ground that do continual damage for 3 seconds or something. That would be interesting
• Then there's the Passives: Equipping an Ice Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%. // While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina. I still think that the "Tanking" Passives should be disconnected from Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge and have it's own dedicated Tanking Passive that people can Toggle on and off. Call it Mystic Sentinel or Something
• Also just as a flavor thing, Brittle still should be added to the Elemental force passive so it's in the game so people who aren't aware, know how to get Brittle

Anyways just some thoughts on Frost Staff

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

That cutting dive change - OMG finally!!!

I spent 2 years trying out every single spammable out there, just to avoid using cutting dive. It was nearly impossible to keep track of off-balance in trials/dungeons. You could say that it was definitely not beginner friendly, so this was a much needed change.

Although I understand that wall of elements is still not a good option for Frost DPS, but this change is a good one. the ability to apply minor breach in AOE is significant. Honestly this mini change is getting me excited to play warden tank again.

It's a step in the right direction that was sorely needed.

Let's see how things develop

Yeah the cutting dive change is awesome. My argument for frost wall is that having both morphs do minor breach is kinda redundant when there could be a dps and support morph in unstable wall and blockade respectively.

I think having morphs really differentiate what Wall of Elements do would be a good step forward. Breach is great for Barricade as a Utility skill for a Tanky/Healer for Brittle/Slow/Breach, it's great. But Unstable could really have a different spice, maybe enemies hit by the unstable explosion are knocked off balance or are dealt more damage if they are chilled.

i don't think off balance is needed at all. it's already applied by lightning wall and not generally that helpful. an increased damage proc against chilled enemies would mean a lot more.

FantasticFreddie

I hate frost staff costing magicka instead of stam being hooked to the other passives for fire and lightning. I'd like all tanking choices for staves to be a separate passive, AND affect all staves. Ie, your staff deals 25% less damage, but converts heavy attacks to a taunt and clench into a PULL.
All of the shields and minor protection nonsense frost staves get is bundled into that passive, and and without it, frost staff get its own unique benefit... something that makes them a viable option for ALL dps.

Caribou77

From a PvP perspective, I really don’t want deep fissure to lose minor breach. The 9 second delay and reduced damage at the 3 sec make it a Very Mediocre burst skill (hello NB/DK toolkit), and for me the major/minor breach is 90% of its usefulness. I almost always just use the weak 3 second shot and recast in PvP, which isnt a very cost effective skill.

WrathOfInnos

Caribou77 wrote: »

From a PvP perspective, I really don’t want deep fissure to lose minor breach. The 9 second delay and reduced damage at the 3 sec make it a Very Mediocre burst skill (hello NB/DK toolkit), and for me the major/minor breach is 90% of its usefulness. I almost always just use the weak 3 second shot and recast in PvP, which isnt a very cost effective skill.

I'd like to see Deep Fissure returned to a good damage skill. Maybe removing Minor Breach would allow for the raw power to be increased. It also needs a much shorter duration. I don't understand why this class
defining skill was sucked into the DoT extending patch. Shalks are not a DoT, they are a semi-spammable delayed direct damage skill, much like blastbones, and set the rhythm of the class.

At the very least the 2 ticks should be swapped so the large one is at 3s and we're not punished for recasting early and skipping the 9s tick. Ideally the damage would also be increased by ~10% to bring it closer to Stalking Blastbones (which gets a damage boost for range as well as Encratis + Engulfing Flames bonus).

As for the Minor Breach on Frost Wall, I think that is a good change for tanks. It effectively adds Minor Breach to Frost Clench given the guaranteed proc, as long as the enemy is within the area of Wall. This allows Clench to be a truly viable Pierce Armor replacement. Even if it is run on a DPS warden build that is beneficial, and can be combined with Frost Reach for single target or winter's revenge + pulsar for AoE breach.

ESO_Nightingale

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

From a PvP perspective, I really don’t want deep fissure to lose minor breach. The 9 second delay and reduced damage at the 3 sec make it a Very Mediocre burst skill (hello NB/DK toolkit), and for me the major/minor breach is 90% of its usefulness. I almost always just use the weak 3 second shot and recast in PvP, which isnt a very cost effective skill.

I'd like to see Deep Fissure returned to a good damage skill. Maybe removing Minor Breach would allow for the raw power to be increased. It also needs a much shorter duration. I don't understand why this class
defining skill was sucked into the DoT extending patch. Shalks are not a DoT, they are a semi-spammable delayed direct damage skill, much like blastbones, and set the rhythm of the class.

At the very least the 2 ticks should be swapped so the large one is at 3s and we're not punished for recasting early and skipping the 9s tick. Ideally the damage would also be increased by ~10% to bring it closer to Stalking Blastbones (which gets a damage boost for range as well as Encratis + Engulfing Flames bonus).

As for the Minor Breach on Frost Wall, I think that is a good change for tanks. It effectively adds Minor Breach to Frost Clench given the guaranteed proc, as long as the enemy is within the area of Wall. This allows Clench to be a truly viable Pierce Armor replacement. Even if it is run on a DPS warden build that is beneficial, and can be combined with Frost Reach for single target or winter's revenge + pulsar for AoE breach.

i agree 100% on deep fissure

But, while the frost wall changes are nice, they also don't really directly lead to a damage increase since tanks and supports would run it anyway while using our chilled for the breach and snare, and we still have to deal with a cost increase while getting nothing directly from it since if 1 person is using it then it is redundant for the other players using it. while it's better than an immobilise especially for solo, but could be a lot better if they seperated supportive effects and kept them on blockade, while making a solid damage related effect for unstable wall. frost dps wardens are a legitimate thing now and so it makes sense to have 1 morph actively help frost dps and another that focuses on support since that's been proven to work wonders.

OBJnoob

I mean if PvE wardens want beetles that pop more frequently and don't apply breach they already have exactly that, don't they?

I'm not strictly against the idea of replacing minor breach with something else, but just raising the tooltip would ultimately be the same. Either your beetles hit harder or, due to breach, whatever you combo it with hits harder. Not worth changing IMO. In a PvP scenario the minor breach is arguably even more useful because your target may be taking damage from other people as well.

Penetration is a big deal in PvP you cant really get enough. Wardens having it so readily available to them is sortve an identity trait. Because they come with major+minor, and perhaps run balorghs, they really need no further investment. And this is a massive boon when choosing gear sets.

ESO_Nightingale

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean if PvE wardens want beetles that pop more frequently and don't apply breach they already have exactly that, don't they?

I'm not strictly against the idea of replacing minor breach with something else, but just raising the tooltip would ultimately be the same. Either your beetles hit harder or, due to breach, whatever you combo it with hits harder. Not worth changing IMO. In a PvP scenario the minor breach is arguably even more useful because your target may be taking damage from other people as well.

Penetration is a big deal in PvP you cant really get enough. Wardens having it so readily available to them is sortve an identity trait. Because they come with major+minor, and perhaps run balorghs, they really need no further investment. And this is a massive boon when choosing gear sets.

i think one of the animal companions passives should be updated to also increase penetration against bleeding targets instead of pumping us with every named buff in the game. as the frost and bleed class, i think at least one of our passives should have a bonus against bleeding enemies.

OBJnoob

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean if PvE wardens want beetles that pop more frequently and don't apply breach they already have exactly that, don't they?

I'm not strictly against the idea of replacing minor breach with something else, but just raising the tooltip would ultimately be the same. Either your beetles hit harder or, due to breach, whatever you combo it with hits harder. Not worth changing IMO. In a PvP scenario the minor breach is arguably even more useful because your target may be taking damage from other people as well.

Penetration is a big deal in PvP you cant really get enough. Wardens having it so readily available to them is sortve an identity trait. Because they come with major+minor, and perhaps run balorghs, they really need no further investment. And this is a massive boon when choosing gear sets.

i think one of the animal companions passives should be updated to also increase penetration against bleeding targets instead of pumping us with every named buff in the game. as the frost and bleed class, i think at least one of our passives should have a bonus against bleeding enemies.

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that. Obviously we both remember the very short stint where slotting animal companion abilities granted penetration instead of crit damage. THAT was nice, imo, but was apparently bad for PvE.

There is also a CP star that increases penetration per status effect. Not exclusive to bleeds, I know, but applicable.

Also, since the magic morph of beetles has the minor breach, but bleed is on stam abilities, I don't think putting it there makes much sense either.

Maybe you have a recommendation on how to implement it?

ESO_Nightingale

OBJnoob wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean if PvE wardens want beetles that pop more frequently and don't apply breach they already have exactly that, don't they?

I'm not strictly against the idea of replacing minor breach with something else, but just raising the tooltip would ultimately be the same. Either your beetles hit harder or, due to breach, whatever you combo it with hits harder. Not worth changing IMO. In a PvP scenario the minor breach is arguably even more useful because your target may be taking damage from other people as well.

Penetration is a big deal in PvP you cant really get enough. Wardens having it so readily available to them is sortve an identity trait. Because they come with major+minor, and perhaps run balorghs, they really need no further investment. And this is a massive boon when choosing gear sets.

i think one of the animal companions passives should be updated to also increase penetration against bleeding targets instead of pumping us with every named buff in the game. as the frost and bleed class, i think at least one of our passives should have a bonus against bleeding enemies.

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that. Obviously we both remember the very short stint where slotting animal companion abilities granted penetration instead of crit damage. THAT was nice, imo, but was apparently bad for PvE.

There is also a CP star that increases penetration per status effect. Not exclusive to bleeds, I know, but applicable.

Also, since the magic morph of beetles has the minor breach, but bleed is on stam abilities, I don't think putting it there makes much sense either.

Maybe you have a recommendation on how to implement it?

well, i'd think we'd trade the minor breach on fissure, for gaining a unique penetration bonus back on a passive. savage beast could gain it. the issue we had with penetration on advanced species was that it completely replaced a raw damage bonus, but if it was added to an existing passive with a condition then it'd probably be welcomed.

something like this would be very thematic and on point.

OBJnoob

I think the problem with the PvE side of things is that it's just too easy to reach the pen cap and they don't really need/want it. But yes, I'm sure this addition would be received much better than the other replacement was. More is more. Trade two pieces of LA for MA-- good to go.

I still wouldn't like it TBH it would be a nerf of 900 penetration to bleed wardens and a loss of 2900 to me. And this is from a PvP perspective now, where I'm not necessarily gonna get minor breach from anywhere else because of bar space.

Of course I could just use WoF, but I'd rather not. I think it's a much better backbar skill than a frontbar skill because it procs weapon enchants. Kinda ironic, right? I wouldn't want to use it BECAUSE I use a frost staff. Better skills available for front bar-- especially if it doesn't immobilize anymore.

Honestly I think 2H wrecking blow wardens are gonna be the thing next patch though. It was always a halfway silly idea to make frost staffs their thing... But it was kinda balanced in a way. The flat damage done on frost staves roughly equalled the better damage passives and executes available on stam variants. Major berserk will make that go away.