skill line resets NEED to happen

rotatorkuf · May 2014

edit:

user erlinder makes a good point about being able to respec per skill point but only at a higher cost, say respecing 1 skill point only for 500g, or 1k, something to that effect

main reason/thought:

first and foremost, this is not a thread to argue for being able to spec into tank or spec into heals or spec into dps, or respeccing from blacksmithing to clothing....having 300+ skill points accomplishes this (allows you to pretty much spec into almost everything useful)....this is a thread FOR respeccing for morphs and playing how we want, while maintaining a more efficient gold sink in respeccing

zenimax marketed/markets this game as "play as you want"

the huge, and inefficient, gold cost for respeccing 200-300+ skill points is the exact opposite of this

probable questions/concerns that might arise:

QC1. why do you want this? it doesn't cost much to respec

A. considering how many points are attainable/usable, 300+ skill points becomes a RIDICULOUS amount to not only pay to reset, but reassign....sure you can "farm" for gold, but not everyone has copious amounts of time to farm gold, or farm methods of obtaining gold

QC2. just read the tooltip and figure out which morph is better

A2. with all the poorly worded, or mislabeled tooltips, morphs sometimes become total busts because you thought it did something it implied, but as you find out with testing, it doesn't do it or the does opposite (ex: molten armaments crit %only affects light/heavy attacks, but doesn't say this directly)

QC3. so just deal with it

AC3. there are so many bugged abilities, even zenimax acknowledges this, that it becomes a total bust when you morph into something and have to respec YOUR ENTIRE LINE in order to "fix" a bugged morph by choosing the one you didn't want only because it's the morph that works (sometimes entire skill lines become useless, see nightblade dual wielding)

QC4. i don't care, i can deal with not respeccing and use the morph i got even though it sucks

AC4. there are SO MANY MORPHS!!! zenimax designed this game around morphs and playing how you want....how does it make sense to be able to play how you want at the expense of 20 or 30k per respec only to try or test another morph?....MORPHS MORPHS MORPHS, they were put in the game so you could have fun with all of them, not be forced to use one if you don't have the money to respec your entire amount of skill points

QC5. but it's a gold sink! where else are you gonna waste your gold

AC5. right now, repairing items is eating up a lot of gold....also, it would still be a gold sink, probably even more so, especially with all the tinkering that people do to "perfect" specs or builds, but, it would be a more efficient gold sink, you don't have to reset and rebuy every skill only to change 1 single morph

QC6. if you let ppl respec lines, they can abuse it and just get another line!!!

AC6. no, just no, there is no abuse, there would be no abuse, there can be no abuse, you can ALREADY spec into every crafting line, spec into heals + tank + dps and pvp, there are 300+ skill points in the game (iirc, dev said ~346). so no, you can already spec into almost everything (more specifically, you can spec into all crafting lines and max them)

all constructive comments welcome

honestly, there is NO reason why this shouldn't happen

for those of you that think you don't need it, fine, why should your lack of needing it affect other players that will use/need it? it doesn't affect you negatively in ANY way

Taleof2Cities · May 2014

Well, people aren't going to like this, but ...

... my humble opinion is that you live with the decisions you've made for your char.

It's a nice privilege to change your skills. Why should that not cost something?

Myself? Totally enjoying my char and have spent zero gold on respecc. Not even sure where the shrine is to get respecc and skill changes. Sure, I've had a couple of bad morphs myself, but there's plenty of other skills to suit my playstyle.

I imagine when I am unhappy with my char build I will just start a new char ... but I don't see that happening soon.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

sigh...actually read the post, i can tell you didn't

Noswell · May 2014

The main reason I see them not wanting respecs to be cheap or targeted as things stand now is because you could just switch around points in the crafting trees to take advantage of all the perks in rotation.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Noswell wrote: »

The main reason I see them not wanting respecs to be cheap or targeted as things stand now is because you could just switch around points in the crafting trees to take advantage of all the perks in rotation.

no, you can already get all the crafting skills you want with all the skill points available

besides this wouldn't be taking "advantage" of anything

they put in 300+ skill points so you could play/buy whatever you want, and like i mentioned in my OP, not the point of this request

htoncic · May 2014

I fully support this, mainly because of misleading tooltips. If they were accurately worded and provided all the details, I imagine there wouldn't be so many poorly chosen morphs. Also, it's a good idea to provide free respecs any time they change abilities.

Erlindur · May 2014

Forget resets. Just give us the option to remorph one skill at a time and put the price at (for example) 1K gold. The option applies only to skills that can be and are morphed and will not give you the skill point back but it will simply change the morphed skill into the alternate version of it. No passives are affected.

Is there a problem with something like that?

rotatorkuf · May 2014

htoncic wrote: »

I fully support this, mainly because of misleading tooltips. If they were accurately worded and provided all the details, I imagine there wouldn't be so many poorly chosen morphs. Also, it's a good idea to provide free respecs any time they change abilities.

based on the patch notes for 1.1, they're only resetting the skill points for any abilites that are being nerfed/changed/fixed

Erlindur wrote: »

Forget resets. Just give us the option to remorph one skill at a time and put the price at (for example) 1K gold. The option applies only to skills that can be and are morphed and will not give you the skill point back but it will simply change the morphed skill into the alternate version of it. No passives are affected.

Is there a problem with something like that?

seems a kafkaesque way of handling a simple matter

reset the skill line, and it will cost you whatever skill points you have in it

ex: reset destro staff, have 16 points in it, costs 1.6k to reset that line

simple and efficient

Erlindur · May 2014

rotatorkuf wrote: »

seems a kafkaesque way of handling a simple matter

reset the skill line, and it will cost you whatever skill points you have in it

ex: reset destro staff, have 16 points in it, costs 1.6k to reset that line

simple and efficient

Well, the solution depends on the problem you are trying to solve. My problem is that I would like to try different versions of some skills into my builds and maybe go back if I'm not happy with them. A full respec is out of the question.

Your solution allow us to drop desto staff for example and go to resto staff. I have no problems with that, ONLY if we exclude the crafting skill trees from that option. I can see a lot of abuse if we are allowed to change craft specializations that cheap.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Erlindur wrote: »

rotatorkuf wrote: »

seems a kafkaesque way of handling a simple matter

reset the skill line, and it will cost you whatever skill points you have in it

ex: reset destro staff, have 16 points in it, costs 1.6k to reset that line

simple and efficient

Well, the solution depends on the problem you are trying to solve. My problem is that I would like to try different versions of some skills into my builds and maybe go back if I'm not happy with them. A full respec is out of the question.

Your solution allow us to drop desto staff for example and go to resto staff. I have no problems with that, ONLY if we exclude the crafting skill trees from that option. I can see a lot of abuse if we are allowed to change craft specializations that cheap.

1st part:
no, i'm not saying respec skill line destro staff to be able to respec resto staff, read it again carefully, i made it a point to specify being able to respec skill lines to be able to try out different morphs, so respec destro staff, to be able to use different morphs in destro staff, however, i see your point, but i don't think "abuse" applies in any situation (read 2nd part)

2nd part:
again, i don't know in what world "abuse" applies to having all crafting abilities, anyone can do it right now as is, right now i have all crafting lines with only 200 skill points, so, no, no "abuse" will happen...also, "play how you want to play", emphasis on that remains, they want us to be able to do whatever we want with one toon, or so they made it seem

more over, my proposition wouldn't change any of this (see: 300+ skill points, able to spec all crafting skill lines)

great comments, but invalid points imo

raglau · May 2014

Until such time as the skill descriptions are properly written and that the skills are not bugged, I support that we should only pay for a points we respec, not the whole lot.

For instance, I have some NB skills that are simply not working as described - or even at all - and I believe I should not be grossly penalised for an error on the part of the developer.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

squicker wrote: »

Until such time as the skill descriptions are properly written and that the skills are not bugged, I support that we should only pay for a points we respec, not the whole lot.

For instance, I have some NB skills that are simply not working as described - or even at all - and I believe I should not be grossly penalised for an error on the part of the developer.

there is a BIG problem with tooltip wording, i think either because they had a department that didn't know the full and actual extent of abilites created in another department

or zenimax simply wanted to be purposely vague

in either case, it's a fact of the matter that tooltips are for the most part, somewhat ambiguous

although being able to respec per point would be incredible, i think it would defeat the purpose of a "gold sink", which is why i propose skill line resets

or as the guy above suggested, perhaps a higher cost for per point respecs

Skeksi · May 2014

I agree that skill resets should be more targeted. At the moment I have 64 skill points in Crafting, and I don't want them back, but I wouldn't mind playing around with points in my class, weapon and armour skill lines.

An all or nothing approach seems clunky given the way skill lines work and there is no divide between crafting and active skills.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Skeksi wrote: »

I agree that skill resets should be more targeted. At the moment I have 64 skill points in Crafting, and I don't want them back, but I wouldn't mind playing around with points in my class, weapon and armour skill lines.

exactly, having to go back and put each point back where it was is unnecessarily tedious...

ElSlayer · May 2014

Erlindur wrote: »

Well, the solution depends on the problem you are trying to solve. My problem is that I would like to try different versions of some skills into my builds and maybe go back if I'm not happy with them. A full respec is out of the question.

Your solution allow us to drop desto staff for example and go to resto staff. I have no problems with that, ONLY if we exclude the crafting skill trees from that option. I can see a lot of abuse if we are allowed to change craft specializations that cheap.

Craft specializations are not defined by skillpoints spent or skill line level as it, indeed, quickly obtainable through spending gold, but by which and how many traits you've researched. So I don't see any possibility for abuse here. Could you elaborate, please?

rotatorkuf · May 2014

ElSlayer wrote: »

Erlindur wrote: »

Well, the solution depends on the problem you are trying to solve. My problem is that I would like to try different versions of some skills into my builds and maybe go back if I'm not happy with them. A full respec is out of the question.

Your solution allow us to drop desto staff for example and go to resto staff. I have no problems with that, ONLY if we exclude the crafting skill trees from that option. I can see a lot of abuse if we are allowed to change craft specializations that cheap.

Craft specializations are not defined by skillpoints spent or skill line level as it, indeed, quickly obtainable through spending gold, but by which and how many traits you've researched. So I don't see any possibility for abuse here. Could you elaborate, please?

i'm just thinking some people haven't reached the vet ranks

or haven't seen / aren't aware of the huge amount of skill points available

i cannot stress that enough, there's so many points that allow you to get all crafting lines and still have points for abilites to spec tank/heal/dps...and still have points left over!

i'm doing this myself right now

and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, not the point of this thread, it's an argument (re: respeccing to abuse diff skill lines) that has no merit

Saerydoth · May 2014

I think they need to go with respec costs the way WOW does. Have it start out cheap (at least for the first one), increase, and then decay with time back to cheap again. So if you do a lot of respecs it's expensive but if you only do it very occasionally it's not.

Noswell · May 2014

Except that this wouldn't apply to only people with 300+ skill points. I think the potential for abuse most certainly exists for rolling tons of alts/accounts with just a few skill points and cycling them.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

I think they need to go with respec costs the way WOW does. Have it start out cheap (at least for the first one), increase, and then decay with time back to cheap again. So if you do a lot of respecs it's expensive but if you only do it very occasionally it's not.

interesting, but i think they're trying to evolve, so idk

Noswell wrote: »

Except that this wouldn't apply to only people with 300+ skill points. I think the potential for abuse most certainly exists for rolling tons of alts/accounts with just a few skill points and cycling them.

no man, just no lol, stop trying

this isn't because i disagree with you (even though i do disagree)

it's just nonsense, you can only have up to 8 characters, and you can already level them up to respec into all the craft lines....so, no argument for you there

you even invalidate your own argument by saying you can roll multiple alts, why would you ever need to respec crafting lines? have one do blacksmith, one do clothing, etc...

you can buy multiple accounts of the game and accomplish the same thing, nothing is stopping you

argument rendered invalid

i don't know how anyone can disagree with the proposition i'm making...it amazes me that "abuse" keeps being brought up by the few people....it's very short-sighted imo

Noswell · May 2014

rotatorkuf wrote: »

no man, just no lol, stop trying

Well, you make a good point there, I guess I can't argue with it. I'm not really getting why you're so defensive about it, I'm trying to posit why they would have put the system in as is, that's all. The purpose of a forum post is presumably to have a discussion. If all you can do is say lol no, then perhaps the /feedback option is best suited to your request to the development team.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Noswell wrote: »

rotatorkuf wrote: »

no man, just no lol, stop trying

Well, you make a good point there, I guess I can't argue with it. I'm not really getting why you're so defensive about it, I'm trying to posit why they would have put the system in as is, that's all. The purpose of a forum post is presumably to have a discussion. If all you can do is say lol no, then perhaps the /feedback option is best suited to your request to the development team.

i elaborated after an edit

a lot of things they've done in this game show they didn't really flesh things out, deadlines can cause you to do that, a game of this magnitude will do that, i don't blame them, i don't hate them for doing it, i'm just trying to get them to see something they may not have seen yet

i'm not saying what they're doing is wrong, i'm just saying, this would be a more efficient way of handling things, and it doesn't affect anyone negatively, at all, i (and even yourself) invalidated the point you were trying to make, unless you can legitimately argue against the flaws i expose in your argument, it's a moot point

Noswell · May 2014

Well, all the specious quasi-logic claims aside, the point I'm trying to make is that it's not the legitimate players who would be gaming the system, and the cost is so high that it seems to me they must be trying to keep players from being able to switch back and forth in certain trees without a huge barrier, and the only one I can think of that would be most likely to lead to gold creation is the crafting trees. Hireling mail/dupe bugs spring to mind for example.

The truth is I would also like cheaper targeted respecs, I'm just trying to figure out WHY they have the current huge costs, because I'm sure they have a reason.

Erlindur · May 2014

rotatorkuf wrote: »

no man, just no lol, stop trying

this isn't because i disagree with you (even though i do disagree)

it's just nonsense, you can only have up to 8 characters, and you can already level them up to respec into all the craft lines....so, no argument for you there

you even invalidate your own argument by saying you can roll multiple alts, why would you ever need to respec crafting lines? have one do blacksmith, one do clothing, etc...

you can buy multiple accounts of the game and accomplish the same thing, nothing is stopping you

honestly i don't even know what your point is anymore, if there even is one....just stop

i don't know how anyone can disagree with the proposition i'm making...it amazes me that "abuse" keeps being brought up by the few people....it's very short-sighted

Yes, one can do all of the above. You just want to make it easy and cheap. If someone had a problem with combat skills, he would easily accepted my suggestion and leave the crafting lines out. If someone just wants to freely relocate his crafting skill points at will, is another story.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Noswell wrote: »

Well, all the specious quasi-logic claims aside, the point I'm trying to make is that it's not the legitimate players who would be gaming the system, and the cost is so high that it seems to me they must be trying to keep players from being able to switch back and forth in certain trees without a huge barrier, and the only one I can think of that would be most likely to lead to gold creation is the crafting trees. Hireling mail/dupe bugs spring to mind for example.

The truth is I would also like cheaper targeted respecs, I'm just trying to figure out WHY they have the current huge costs, because I'm sure they have a reason.

you seem to keep losing sight of the fact that you can already do what you are suggesting (which renders your point invalid)

ex:

i'm a gold farmer, i buy a game account, i don't care about playing the game, i just make a bunch of alts, level each of them up so that i can have a blacksmith, a clother, an enchanter, etc.

i'm done, i can farm all the hirelings i want, i never need to respec, if i do respec, i lose my hirelings if i switch to another craft, why would i do that? (even if i do, i'm a gold farmer, i have all the gold to respec the 40 or so points i have in crafting, cheap 4k)

*respec is changed so that i can respec skill lines*
oh good i can respec all my alts now....wait, i lose the hirelings, unless i have them specced into, i won't benefit from them, why would i want to respec?

why would i ever even need to touch respec? this has almost nothing to do with the point of this thread, nor does it make a point for the purpose of having a high cost to respeccing

tengri · May 2014

On the tool-tip issue: Yes, those are confusing and sometimes even misleading and need work.
On the broken skills issue: Yes, needs fixing, too.
Both points bugs are not a valid reason for changing how respec mechanics work though.

On the other issues: respec is fine as is.
It should not be a free pass to fool around as often and as long as one wants until you finally "get it right".
Or adapt to a different skill layout to be able to abuse which ever skill line exploit is currently popular every other day; and the high gold barrier is a rather good show stopper here.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Erlindur wrote: »

rotatorkuf wrote: »

no man, just no lol, stop trying

this isn't because i disagree with you (even though i do disagree)

it's just nonsense, you can only have up to 8 characters, and you can already level them up to respec into all the craft lines....so, no argument for you there

you even invalidate your own argument by saying you can roll multiple alts, why would you ever need to respec crafting lines? have one do blacksmith, one do clothing, etc...

you can buy multiple accounts of the game and accomplish the same thing, nothing is stopping you

honestly i don't even know what your point is anymore, if there even is one....just stop

i don't know how anyone can disagree with the proposition i'm making...it amazes me that "abuse" keeps being brought up by the few people....it's very short-sighted

Yes, one can do all of the above. You just want to make it easy and cheap. If someone had a problem with combat skills, he would easily accepted my suggestion and leave the crafting lines out. If someone just wants to freely relocate his crafting skill points at will, is another story.

they are not different stories

i have 15 points in dual wielding, i don't like this line, or it's underperforming because of bugs or bad morphs

i should spend those 15 points in two handed

what exactly is the problem with that? it doesn't affect YOU negatively if someone wants to do this....why should they have to reset the ENTIRE skill line

i have 15 points in clothing, damnit i ran out of points (i can go get some more skill points) or i can just respec the line into blacksmithing (but i lose clothing)

how does that affect you negatively?

but like i said, i see your point about only respeccing morphs, which is a neat idea...and i wouldn't be against it

AlexDougherty · May 2014

Respeccing should be free, it was in SWTOR and there was very little abuse of it. A few people respecced before they did PVP, then Respecced back when they did PVE, but most of us just used it when our builds became stupid.

Plenty of Gold sinks in game already, if they need more just add pets, or allow us to convert gear from one type to another (like the imperial bonus but excluding Imperial style)

Erlindur · May 2014

rotatorkuf wrote: »

how does that affect you negatively?

Nothing you do in game can affect me negatively, at least not directly. But it is like someone cheating the IRS and avoid paying his taxes. It doesn't affect me negatively directly. If you see the whole picture though, it will affect me negatively in the long run.

rotatorkuf · May 2014

tengri wrote: »

On the tool-tip issue: Yes, those are confusing and sometimes even misleading and need work.
On the broken skills issue: Yes, needs fixing, too.
Both points bugs are not a valid reason for changing how respec mechanics work though.

On the other issues: respec is fine as is.
It should not be a free pass to fool around as often and as long as one wants until you finally "get it right".
Or adapt to a different skill layout to be able to abuse which ever skill line exploit is currently popular every other day; and the high gold barrier is a rather good show stopper here.

part 1
i half agree they're not entirely valid reasons for changing how respec works in the LONG-TERM, but as it is right now, it's a pain in the butt that shouldn't be forcing us to respec the entire amount of points, if anything, because they are invalid reasons for changing how the mechanic works, they should give reduced cost respecs because of their own bugged/poorly worded tooltips (for the time being until they update/fix them), but that's frankly my opinion, and probably a stretch

part 2
i don't know where it was implied that it would become a "free pass", especially with, as you said, "fool around as often" would become the case, and thus, probably result in as much if not more than the cost of respeccing the entire set of skill points at once (which is a point i made)

ex: i have 250 skill points, i wanna try out all the morphs in dual wielding (why would you NOT want to be able to or allow people to do this? did zenimax not put all those morphs into the game for variety?)

so, i can spec only points into dual wielding to avoid having to pay a high cost (but i'm not really getting all the numbers or stats that i would if i wanted to do real-world testing, because of lack of passives/class buffs, etc., nor would i even be able to test the spec in dungeons or pvp)

or,*with skill line resets/ morph resets* i can try out all the morphs to see which suits me better, or which abilities currently work for my build, i'll gladly pay about 1-1.5k each time to reset the skill line and try other morphs (probably end up totalling around 10-20k if you do a lot of "fooling around"

so, why would you want to penalize this? the game wants you to explore (as made evident by the lack of quest pointers, aka explore the world and find quests or don't find them)

why should you have to spend 20k each time to see the various morphs, as opposed to spending a total of 20k or 30k to see ALL the morphs in a skill line? it is inefficient and a "dumb" gold sink

rotatorkuf · May 2014

Erlindur wrote: »

rotatorkuf wrote: »

how does that affect you negatively?

Nothing you do in game can affect me negatively, at least not directly. But it is like someone cheating the IRS and avoid paying his taxes. It doesn't affect me negatively directly. If you see the whole picture though, it will affect me negatively in the long run.

i can do things in the game that can affect you negatively, look at the bots camping bosses or camping areas, look at the guild groups camping vampire/werewolf spawns so that no one else can get them and thus have to pay for a bite

i don't know what 'whole picture' you are seeing, but this is quite the outrageous analogy....but i'll bite, say some guy doesn't pay his taxes, or a group of ppl don't, what will happen? throw the economy out of whack? no....cause you to pay more taxes? no......what WILL happen? person will be thrown in jail or the government will garnish a portion of their earnings....let's consider the extreme situation, no one pays their taxes, what then? it doesn't relate to ESO because of the following....

(related to eso)say i don't pay as much for a respec as if i had to pay for the whole amount of skill points......well, wait, you don't have to either!, we both just saved a lot of money....economy is intact, your monies are intact.....and zenimax won't penalize either of us because it's now part of the game (no one avoided anything illegally, you can do what i can do without suffering any different consequences)

and thus, analogy is not applicable

at this point i think you're disagreeing or arguing for the sake of it

Erlindur · May 2014

The "whole picture" is that it affects the entire economy as a whole. If we include craft lines in your suggestion, we simply make 3 professions irrelevant. What's the point in spending points in alchemy, when I can cheaply take my points from clothing, put them in alchemy, craft a few stacks of potions, and then put the points back at clothing. If everyone does it, we simply collapsed the potion market. Same for provisioning and enchanting.