Important Needed Economy Changes for ESO!

VaranisArano · December 2022

To weigh in on the Guild Trader bid gold sink vs a Centralized Listing, I'm not sure it would be all that detrimental to the Status Quo.

The current value of the "hub" towns (Mournhold, Rawlkha, etc.) is that most casual players don't typically want to travel all over the place searching for bargains. They want to go to one place, hit those 5-6 traders, do their crafting writs, and be on their way. The big guilds fill that need by gathering a lot of stuff (partly by flipping) in one place for relatively convenient shopping compared to going around 5+ smaller zones.

And conversely, the value of TTC is that for the players who have the time to surf the site looking for bargains, they can rush around picking up bargains, then bring them back to their "hub" guild and relist for a higher price, knowing that players will come there to buy it. This works with rare and relatively common materials alike - my Potent Nirncrux and Alchemy Reagents were all bought in bulk by people who resold/flipped them. Moreover, when casual players use TTC, trying to bargain hunt at far-flung traders often results in disappointment, since it's already been sniped by a player who has the time to watch TTC more closely. So many casual players end up doing their shopping in the central hubs anyway, because that's where they can reliably find goods, even at a flipped price.

Now let's consider an In-Game Centralized Listing that's effectively the same as TTC. i.e. you can see where items are listed and their prices, but to buy, you have to go to the trader where it's listed. We will presume that ZOS has snapped their fingers and magically solved all the performance issues years ago with TTC calling on the server too often, so everyone has mostly-real time info. We will also assume that ZOS has magicked up the ability to list every item for sale in the game with all the info the OP wants without much lag, including which guild trader its for sale at.

Point 1: Player behavior using TTC and in other games with Auction Houses suggests that players who have the time to watch the Centralized Listing will rush around snapping up bargains. (We'll assume that these are all real players and no bots.)

Point 2: As with TTC, casual players who don't watch the Centralized Listing will struggle to collect bargains because they are frequently gone before they get there. After a while, the disappointment means they just revert back to type: shopping at places where they know they can get most of the items they want at a reasonable price.

I think it's very probable that with active traders watching the Centralized Listing, grabbing bargains, and flipping in their own guilds, we would still have "hubs" made up of active traders. It might not be the same hubs. However, I suspect that as long as players have to go to a specific guild trader to get an item, convenience will keep the big trading guilds in the current hubs and will keep casual players going to those guilds to get their items. After all, that's exactly what's happening now! Big guilds pay big dues for the convenience of the hubs, knowing players come for the convenience of not searching through five+ smaller zones for what they need. Since TTC didn't lessen the Guild Trader bid situation on PC, I don't think that a Centralized Listing would either.

Meanwhile, most PC players fall into the casual category. They don't generally watch TTC for bargains (usually having been disappointed when they did.) Instead, they typically use TTC infrequently to figure out where a less common item is or to figure out a price range. For those players, a Centralized Listing might not change anything at all.

Conclusion: TTC didn't hurt the Guild Trader bid situation or kill the hubs on PC. Quite the opposite. So I think a Centralized Listing that's more or less identical to TTC wouldn't impact it much either.

King_Jude · December 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wayshrine fees must be kept because they are a gold sink. Gold sinks aren't flaws, they are necessary part of combating inflation.

I wasn't talking about wayshrine fees. Why bring them up?

Because you asked this question...

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

What other system must be kept because it is a gold sink?

So, I answered it. Wayshrine fees are another system that must be kept because it is a gold sink.

I didn't ask about wayshrine fees. I only noted that requiring a gold sink in the form of bidding for guild vendors each week was not a good design decision. Some gold sinks are better than others.

The game needs gold sinks. I can think of nine off the top of my head and quite frankly I think it needs more.

1 - Repairs, which is off set by repair kits.

2 - Bag space improvements.

3 - Wayshrines.

4 - Buying houses (off set by crown purchase option).

5 - Furniture lux vendor.

6 - Home and achievement furniture vendors.

7 - Golden (monster gear) vendor (off set by alliance points [I think]).

And more on point for this thread…

8 - The games “cut” on sold items through guild store.

9 - Guild’s “bid” on the guild vendors.

This last one is a big deal, it pulls a lot of gold out of circulation. And that extra gold stops inflation in a major way. The more gold a player has the less the price for things matter. Having a major gold sink helps.
(The problem though is that there are so many guild vendors now that price for each vendor could go down if there is not enough new guilds who want vendors around to offset it.)

I am still a bit baffled about what this thread is really about. A centralized hub (if that is the idea here) is just a bad idea in an economic sense, RP sense, and a game engine stand point.

The first two problems have already been touched on but let me elaborate on that third point.

Think of a standard guild vendor now, the amount of items posted allowed is 30 per guild member. Guilds are limited to 500 accounts max. So at most there can only be (30x500=)15,000 posted items at any one time.
Think about the delay it takes to search for something right now. Now multiply that by how many guilds will be “attached” to this centralized listing. Now think of all the people posting things and buying things constantly. Now let’s add for the game to determine what the average price should be of everything posted? (Do things that don’t sell count?) And you can already see where the wheels are starting to come off.

The guild vendor system we have now is fine. Guilds compete for better higher traffic areas so that increases gold sinks as the bidding gets higher. If where those guilds post things becomes less important through a centralized listing, than the need for “better locations” goes away, which decreases the gold sink on prime locations, which puts more gold in circulation, and which makes everything more expensive for rare items, while making cheaper (common) items pointless to post due to massive amounts of competition.

The current system promotes a healthy balance.

If you read the thread, I never once talkee about doing away with the guild traders gold sinks. I spoke on a way to improve the current system without scrapping how guild traders are obtained, so why do you guys keep talking about gold sinks if those post doesn't affect it?

Just reread the post, I did explain it. In fact, with my suggestions, more gold would be sinked, but you didn't see that did you?

"Player's should be able to find Market Boards in every country or a central trading Country/Island area that all guild traders in the game are linked too displaying all listed items in one place giving steady consistent pricing, and competitive prices."

That change would end guild traders as we know them. There would be zero reason to compete for heavy traffic locations. It would allow for easier market manipulation and it would drive many who play the economy like end game away from the game all together.
You didn't say you wanted to remove trade guilds or the gold sink but that is exactly what would happen if this change was made.

Actually every location is worth grabbing and so many guilds are still trying to get them. It doesn't many any location worthless. But yes no location would be a prime location as just having one makes it essential still. So obtaining one won't lose any value and it brings value to the countless guild traders nobody ever looks at.

Northwold · December 2022

I think it's worth remembering that not every player's taste is the same and that this forum tends to lean towards hardcore players who think "casual" play is multiple logins per week or, indeed, logging in every single day.

In particular, some of the descriptions of why the current system is "fine" don't ring true in any sensible description of reality.

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently. Really? I'm sorry, did someone find a magical way for ESO not to have loading screens and loading waits? Do you have any idea how long it would take to check every trader? This is supposed to be a game. Not a job.

(And to people who say "lazy players don't get rewards" the answer has got to be: "if players find a game sufficiently tedious they will go play something else". It's not really a badge of honour that someone, somewhere, spends their days checking out the listings of every trader in the game by visiting every trader in turn.)

The gold sinks point, so regularly trotted out as the answer to everything. Even if this thread were arguing for a central auction house (and it isn't), if you lose the trader gold sink, *just make another one*. Selling fees, bank fees, whatever. There is literally no reason why, just because the big gold sink now is X, it must forever and always be X. It is a strawman and a non-point.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't. And then people argue that they're "lazy" etc and we go round in circles again. No, they're not lazy, they just don't enjoy the same things you do.

Really, there is no point in even participating in these discussions if people are not prepared to accept that different players have different tastes and the way the trading system has been set up really does rub a lot of players up the wrong way. In a way that, speaking for myself only, I have never seen in any other MMO. It is bizarre and drives people away from the game, and it is perfectly legitimate for people to feel this way about it.

It simply is not normal for a system fundamental to the functioning of an MMO to be gated behind so many unnecessary hoops. And it simply is not credible for people to be pretending that trading is a "mini game" with no relevance to the wider MMO.

You can wish that everyone liked the same things you do. They don't. You can pretend that everyone who doesn't like the same things you do is lazy. They aren't. You can claim that central system X isn't important to an MMO because you can do everything you could do with central system X by living in the game, not having a job, and never sleeping. No one sensible will agree with you. You can pretend that even the slightest change to a system you are fine with but other people dislike will break the entire game and the apocalypse shall be upon us. It won't.

A discussion involves trying to understand other points of view and admitting they exist. Not dismissing everything you don't like as "laziness" or with points that summarise to "just be more like me and be less like you".

VaranisArano · December 2022

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wayshrine fees must be kept because they are a gold sink. Gold sinks aren't flaws, they are necessary part of combating inflation.

I wasn't talking about wayshrine fees. Why bring them up?

Because you asked this question...

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

What other system must be kept because it is a gold sink?

So, I answered it. Wayshrine fees are another system that must be kept because it is a gold sink.

I didn't ask about wayshrine fees. I only noted that requiring a gold sink in the form of bidding for guild vendors each week was not a good design decision. Some gold sinks are better than others.

The game needs gold sinks. I can think of nine off the top of my head and quite frankly I think it needs more.

1 - Repairs, which is off set by repair kits.

2 - Bag space improvements.

3 - Wayshrines.

4 - Buying houses (off set by crown purchase option).

5 - Furniture lux vendor.

6 - Home and achievement furniture vendors.

7 - Golden (monster gear) vendor (off set by alliance points [I think]).

And more on point for this thread…

8 - The games “cut” on sold items through guild store.

9 - Guild’s “bid” on the guild vendors.

This last one is a big deal, it pulls a lot of gold out of circulation. And that extra gold stops inflation in a major way. The more gold a player has the less the price for things matter. Having a major gold sink helps.
(The problem though is that there are so many guild vendors now that price for each vendor could go down if there is not enough new guilds who want vendors around to offset it.)

I am still a bit baffled about what this thread is really about. A centralized hub (if that is the idea here) is just a bad idea in an economic sense, RP sense, and a game engine stand point.

The first two problems have already been touched on but let me elaborate on that third point.

Think of a standard guild vendor now, the amount of items posted allowed is 30 per guild member. Guilds are limited to 500 accounts max. So at most there can only be (30x500=)15,000 posted items at any one time.
Think about the delay it takes to search for something right now. Now multiply that by how many guilds will be “attached” to this centralized listing. Now think of all the people posting things and buying things constantly. Now let’s add for the game to determine what the average price should be of everything posted? (Do things that don’t sell count?) And you can already see where the wheels are starting to come off.

The guild vendor system we have now is fine. Guilds compete for better higher traffic areas so that increases gold sinks as the bidding gets higher. If where those guilds post things becomes less important through a centralized listing, than the need for “better locations” goes away, which decreases the gold sink on prime locations, which puts more gold in circulation, and which makes everything more expensive for rare items, while making cheaper (common) items pointless to post due to massive amounts of competition.

The current system promotes a healthy balance.

If you read the thread, I never once talkee about doing away with the guild traders gold sinks. I spoke on a way to improve the current system without scrapping how guild traders are obtained, so why do you guys keep talking about gold sinks if those post doesn't affect it?

Just reread the post, I did explain it. In fact, with my suggestions, more gold would be sinked, but you didn't see that did you?

"Player's should be able to find Market Boards in every country or a central trading Country/Island area that all guild traders in the game are linked too displaying all listed items in one place giving steady consistent pricing, and competitive prices."

That change would end guild traders as we know them. There would be zero reason to compete for heavy traffic locations. It would allow for easier market manipulation and it would drive many who play the economy like end game away from the game all together.
You didn't say you wanted to remove trade guilds or the gold sink but that is exactly what would happen if this change was made.

Actually every location is worth grabbing and so many guilds are still trying to get them. It doesn't many any location worthless. But yes no location would be a prime location as just having one makes it essential still. So obtaining one won't lose any value and it brings value to the countless guild traders nobody ever looks at.

Question: would you say that TTC brings value to the countless guild traders nobody ever looks at?

From my perspective, TTC shows when those far-flung traders have bargains, which are usually snagged by players who have the time to watch TTC, not casual players. Those bargain items are then resold at hubs, for hub prices.

So I'd say that TTC brings sales to countless guild traders nobody ever looks at because of bargain hunter-flippers, but I think I'd be hard pressed to say that those far-flung locations have gotten more valuable because of it. The average Thieves Outpost guild trader usually isn't a good trading guild with a full store, you know?

spartaxoxo · December 2022

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items usually cost way more money than a casual players can afford. Someone who can buy something like the Sixth House Banner is already making money in this game just fine. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst. I've had to actually hunt for an item that was both rare and cheap really hard only a couple of times in the multiple years I've played this game.

I won't deny a central hub would make it easier to find. But, upending an entire economy over a very rare occurrence isn't a compelling argument to me personally.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

Northwold · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wayshrine fees must be kept because they are a gold sink. Gold sinks aren't flaws, they are necessary part of combating inflation.

I wasn't talking about wayshrine fees. Why bring them up?

Because you asked this question...

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

What other system must be kept because it is a gold sink?

So, I answered it. Wayshrine fees are another system that must be kept because it is a gold sink.

I didn't ask about wayshrine fees. I only noted that requiring a gold sink in the form of bidding for guild vendors each week was not a good design decision. Some gold sinks are better than others.

I didn't state you asked about wayshrine fees. When you ask "what's another gold sink' the person answering can choose any other gold sink that they feel like picking. I chose wayshrine fees. I chose them because they are generally considered a good gold sink in this game. I then used to that as a jumping off point to explain why I think having gold sinks, such as the guild traders fees, are a necessary function of the game.

I should have added "significant". Wayshrine fees are tiny compared to that. Sorry I wasn't specific. I should have spelled it out more.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Northwold wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.

Northwold · December 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.

It's a pointless suggestion (because as a selling mechanic it is worthless) that is used to dismiss without thought any complaint or productive idea re trading and has been deployed as such in every discussion of trading I've participated in on this forum. So I'm probably going to check out of the discussion here it's not productive.

Vulkunne · December 2022

Northwold wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.

It's a pointless suggestion (because as a selling mechanic it is worthless) that is used to dismiss any complaint or productive idea re trading and has been deployed as such in every discussion of trading I've participated in on this forum. So I'm probably going to check out of the discussion here it's not productive.

For a number of years I sold exclusively in zone chat. Mostly commodities, especially things like Alchemy ingredients, including other things such as motifs. Had my own issues with Guilds as many I had run across during that time were kind of arrogant and selfish.

Eventually I was invited to several really good trade guilds and now sell from there. One reason to go with a Guild is many of these Guilds spend an enormous amount of gold on Kiosks for each week and the tax money helps them with maint costs.

Something I wouldn't mind seeing however is the implementation of a chat channel solely dedicated for the purpose of trade, like New World has and it works great. Guilds could use this to advertise from as well. Just one minor change that doesn't ruin the ESO experience and could provide some incentive for expanding trade a bit.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

I have made a lot of money selling in zone chat during times where I had no guild traders. I went through the collapse of a trading guild multiple times, and afterwards I didn't have one. So, I sold in zone chat. One of my biggest sells ever (multi million coin item) was sold in zone chat. I know a lot of people who also use it when their slots are full even though they have a guild traders. It is a viable form of trade.

Billium813 · December 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.

It would be nice if there was a separate "buy/sell" zone chat; similar to /yell or /emote. Perhaps it could be called [snip]? I dislike players selling in zone chat only because it clutters up the chat window.

[edited for profanity bypass]

heaven13 · December 2022

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

Zos has other more functional issues to worry about. Primarily they need to focus on replacing servers and fixing combat issues while also making money.

The type of upgrades we are talking is going to be very costly on the hardware end. For no guarantee that the system will improve.

So please explain exactly why zos should make this change at massive expense and possible loss of playerbase for almost no financial return, when the current system works.

Personally, if I were in charge and forced to consider something like this I would look at revamping loot tables and item drop rates, gold sinks, inventory options.

I would also go as far as making everything bind on pickup as the resulting loss of player base would be the same and it would cost the company less to implement.

Simple because it would bring more players back to the game. You gotta understand that the vast majority of the player base quit of frustration due to being broke, another vast majority of the game quits because of nerfs, another vast majority of players quit because of broken game machnics such as the block bug in combat and various other bugs. Don't try to sweep known issues under the rug because you find it less important than other issues that the game has. They have to address them all, and the economy is just as important if not more important.

That’s not how vast majority works.

kargen27 · December 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wayshrine fees must be kept because they are a gold sink. Gold sinks aren't flaws, they are necessary part of combating inflation.

I wasn't talking about wayshrine fees. Why bring them up?

Because you asked this question...

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

What other system must be kept because it is a gold sink?

So, I answered it. Wayshrine fees are another system that must be kept because it is a gold sink.

I didn't ask about wayshrine fees. I only noted that requiring a gold sink in the form of bidding for guild vendors each week was not a good design decision. Some gold sinks are better than others.

The game needs gold sinks. I can think of nine off the top of my head and quite frankly I think it needs more.

1 - Repairs, which is off set by repair kits.

2 - Bag space improvements.

3 - Wayshrines.

4 - Buying houses (off set by crown purchase option).

5 - Furniture lux vendor.

6 - Home and achievement furniture vendors.

7 - Golden (monster gear) vendor (off set by alliance points [I think]).

And more on point for this thread…

8 - The games “cut” on sold items through guild store.

9 - Guild’s “bid” on the guild vendors.

This last one is a big deal, it pulls a lot of gold out of circulation. And that extra gold stops inflation in a major way. The more gold a player has the less the price for things matter. Having a major gold sink helps.
(The problem though is that there are so many guild vendors now that price for each vendor could go down if there is not enough new guilds who want vendors around to offset it.)

I am still a bit baffled about what this thread is really about. A centralized hub (if that is the idea here) is just a bad idea in an economic sense, RP sense, and a game engine stand point.

The first two problems have already been touched on but let me elaborate on that third point.

Think of a standard guild vendor now, the amount of items posted allowed is 30 per guild member. Guilds are limited to 500 accounts max. So at most there can only be (30x500=)15,000 posted items at any one time.
Think about the delay it takes to search for something right now. Now multiply that by how many guilds will be “attached” to this centralized listing. Now think of all the people posting things and buying things constantly. Now let’s add for the game to determine what the average price should be of everything posted? (Do things that don’t sell count?) And you can already see where the wheels are starting to come off.

The guild vendor system we have now is fine. Guilds compete for better higher traffic areas so that increases gold sinks as the bidding gets higher. If where those guilds post things becomes less important through a centralized listing, than the need for “better locations” goes away, which decreases the gold sink on prime locations, which puts more gold in circulation, and which makes everything more expensive for rare items, while making cheaper (common) items pointless to post due to massive amounts of competition.

The current system promotes a healthy balance.

If you read the thread, I never once talkee about doing away with the guild traders gold sinks. I spoke on a way to improve the current system without scrapping how guild traders are obtained, so why do you guys keep talking about gold sinks if those post doesn't affect it?

Just reread the post, I did explain it. In fact, with my suggestions, more gold would be sinked, but you didn't see that did you?

"Player's should be able to find Market Boards in every country or a central trading Country/Island area that all guild traders in the game are linked too displaying all listed items in one place giving steady consistent pricing, and competitive prices."

That change would end guild traders as we know them. There would be zero reason to compete for heavy traffic locations. It would allow for easier market manipulation and it would drive many who play the economy like end game away from the game all together.
You didn't say you wanted to remove trade guilds or the gold sink but that is exactly what would happen if this change was made.

Actually every location is worth grabbing and so many guilds are still trying to get them. It doesn't many any location worthless. But yes no location would be a prime location as just having one makes it essential still. So obtaining one won't lose any value and it brings value to the countless guild traders nobody ever looks at.

Question: would you say that TTC brings value to the countless guild traders nobody ever looks at?

From my perspective, TTC shows when those far-flung traders have bargains, which are usually snagged by players who have the time to watch TTC, not casual players. Those bargain items are then resold at hubs, for hub prices.

So I'd say that TTC brings sales to countless guild traders nobody ever looks at because of bargain hunter-flippers, but I think I'd be hard pressed to say that those far-flung locations have gotten more valuable because of it. The average Thieves Outpost guild trader usually isn't a good trading guild with a full store, you know?

You might be giving more credit to TTC than is due. There are entire guilds built around nothing but trading. These players spend as much time getting good at trading as a progression guild does going for trial trifectas. Bargains are often gone before they get to TTC. TTC is not a current and live representation of what items are available.

Responding to something else the current system allows for many levels of participating in the market. Players that only occasionally want to sell things can use zone chat. Guild members can sell to other guild members through a trader that is seen only by that guild. Many guilds get public traders and charge no dues. That works well for players that want to start selling items more frequently. And then you have the end game traders that pool together to get the prime spots and make millions each week. It is a dynamic market that allows all to participate at the level they feel comfortable.

Buying a particular item can take time but compare the time to visit some traders to the time it might take to obtain the item yourself and being able to purchase even with jumping to different traders is a time saver. Again a few quality of life changes would be welcome but we don't need a drastic change.

heaven13 · December 2022

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

Zos has other more functional issues to worry about. Primarily they need to focus on replacing servers and fixing combat issues while also making money.

The type of upgrades we are talking is going to be very costly on the hardware end. For no guarantee that the system will improve.

So please explain exactly why zos should make this change at massive expense and possible loss of playerbase for almost no financial return, when the current system works.

Personally, if I were in charge and forced to consider something like this I would look at revamping loot tables and item drop rates, gold sinks, inventory options.

I would also go as far as making everything bind on pickup as the resulting loss of player base would be the same and it would cost the company less to implement.

Simple because it would bring more players back to the game. You gotta understand that the vast majority of the player base quit of frustration due to being broke,

I don't believe that for a second. Gold is easy to come by in game. Just by playing the game you can afford everything you need and a good amount of things you want. That aside there is no way we as players can know why the majority of players that left the game did so. The vast majority never posts here.

That's absolutely false but humor me this, how much money can you consistently make in an hour as profit and elder scrolls online and what exactly are you doing to make that cash? what are you selling?

All my toons have Jewelry lv50, so any intricate drops from the writs go on the free market All upgrade mats that I do not need. Surplus items with value, like hot overland drops in good traits Companion gear in purple Valuable stuff from all kinds of dailies Or high value ingredients for potion making, like corn flower, for example I even sell repair kits, because I get a free stack of 200 every week from writs [\list] A million per week is always possible and I am not even farming the valuable stuff, like the latest furnishing recipes or anything that is rare, valuable and in demand.

I gotcha, a million a week. But what do you make an hour guaranteed? If you decided you wanted to make some money, how much can you make an hour at a guaranteed rate that does not involve carries?

Carries? I play SOLO now, always.
Please do not insinuate anything. That keeps the forum civil. 🤨

The gold per hour thinking is not fitting to measure your success. ☝️
That thinking is totally 2010. 😂
The return in gold is often not happening straight away. I mean, it is not gold drops we are talking about, that make the profit.

You should look up your total income per week. Or even better per month.
Sales are often better at weekends, because of more population. And grinding is easier during graveyard time in the week, mondays to thursdays, because of a lot less population. You've got to bring these two together.
If not, you are just lying to yourself by creating a random and misleading number.

Gold per hour... 😞

And the true Masters of commerce know when to sell and when to keep/store.
You do not want to sell at low prices when you can expect them to rise again in the near future. Or at/before events. Good traders know that and utilise ESOplus, Alt accounts, storage mules and the craftbag to maximise storage and profit respectively.

And all these can be pruchased with RL money, which is why I see that critically. It's unlikely to change and I've made my peace with that.
But still, one can purchase himself an advantage, if one desires it.

And btw, that one million is considered "not even trying" in many trading guilds. It really comes in almost passively.
The GM of a partner guild made 300 millions in the first week of Zeal of Zenithar event. I am not kidding. He's very public about it. You can easily find him on YouTube, if you search. And before you ask, I will not call him out by name, because I do not know if it is against his will or even community rules on the forums. Okay?

If you feel you know nothing about trading, start by joining a trading guild with a discord. Most advertise in Zone Chat of the trading hubs they are in: Mournhold, Vivec City, Belkarth, etc.
Pay their fees and talk to them. Ask them. Learn from them. That is the best way. Youtubers rarely know what is what and are mostly clickbaiting you.

I believe I understand your line of thinking, you're not used to playing an MMO where you have plenty of products you can get as a guaranteed drop that can sell for a decent rate of cash. For example in RuneScape, you can sell dragon ones for 3k each, and green dragon hide for 1.5k each around the time I was playing many years ago. My character was strong so I calculated how much I could kill, how much I could profit an hour. That's common in MMORPGs.

This issue with ESO is the only thing you can kill for a close to a guaranteed drop is animals for hide, and it's not even always guaranteed, also it's not worth enough to make the average player want to farm it. It simply isn't worth enough. ESO doesn't have any product that you can farm at a guaranteed hourly rate for profit. You say it's not realistic to farm at an hourly rate, but that's just because ESO doesn't offer a proper reward loot system for players to utilize, however you can farm XP for an hourly rate, just not products for profit... If this has been your only MMORPG, just say that. Lol

Lol the point I'm getting at is that this is a game, not IRL, and also technically irl would have the features if you're doing online shopping.

Lol that's cute how you're going on about not knowing anything about trading as I merch in other MMORPGs. Your buddy made 300m by flipping. For example. The rare thesis recipe item used to make 150% xp pvp food is being flipped all the time where people might buy it for as low as 150m and re sell it for 300m. You need loads of gold to be able to flip like this and you can make a lot of money at a fast rate.

Getting there is an issue. Earning gold per hour isn't something you can fathom cause you're not used to it cause this game does it badly while other games do it flawlessly. During this event, powering leveling CP has got me casual rate of 9m XP an hour which could be raised to 9.5-10m an hour depending how try hard we want to be.

Just because you may not know much about trading doesn't mean you should dismiss the other side of trading. Lol

I dunno. It seems like there are a lot of assumptions you are making.

Here is the thing about eso, you are not required to trade to play. The trade system is a time saver nothing more. You can in fact bypass the entire system and still play just fine. Afterall there isn't anything that you can buy or trade that you can not obtain with time, effort, and/or skill. The trade system is a shortcut to those ends and rewards players who dedicate their time to fill those that don't want to do the above.

You don't need a lot of gold to actually play the game.

If you can point me to a single gameplay aspect that 100% requires gold expenditures that is debilitating to gameplay please let me know.

My friend was just complaining to me to where she often has a plan to that costs about 13 or more heartwood, and she might need like 30+ of that particular furniture for her housing project, and she's tried farming it, which takes her about an hour to just get 30 which isn't even close to a stack... She doesn't want to farm that long for so little...

That’s a problem with furnishings and drop rates, not with how trade works. ZoS makes everything take an inordinate amount of heartwood and mundane runes, even things that are not enchanting or woodworking plans. Some of the recipes are nonsensical. Just look at the comparison of those mats with things like bast and regulus and it’s easy to see that ZoS has skewed these recipes very unfavorably. That’s a fix that should absolutely take place but, again, has nothing to do with trading.

BlueRaven · December 2022

heaven13 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

Zos has other more functional issues to worry about. Primarily they need to focus on replacing servers and fixing combat issues while also making money.

The type of upgrades we are talking is going to be very costly on the hardware end. For no guarantee that the system will improve.

So please explain exactly why zos should make this change at massive expense and possible loss of playerbase for almost no financial return, when the current system works.

Personally, if I were in charge and forced to consider something like this I would look at revamping loot tables and item drop rates, gold sinks, inventory options.

I would also go as far as making everything bind on pickup as the resulting loss of player base would be the same and it would cost the company less to implement.

Simple because it would bring more players back to the game. You gotta understand that the vast majority of the player base quit of frustration due to being broke,

I don't believe that for a second. Gold is easy to come by in game. Just by playing the game you can afford everything you need and a good amount of things you want. That aside there is no way we as players can know why the majority of players that left the game did so. The vast majority never posts here.

That's absolutely false but humor me this, how much money can you consistently make in an hour as profit and elder scrolls online and what exactly are you doing to make that cash? what are you selling?

All my toons have Jewelry lv50, so any intricate drops from the writs go on the free market All upgrade mats that I do not need. Surplus items with value, like hot overland drops in good traits Companion gear in purple Valuable stuff from all kinds of dailies Or high value ingredients for potion making, like corn flower, for example I even sell repair kits, because I get a free stack of 200 every week from writs [\list] A million per week is always possible and I am not even farming the valuable stuff, like the latest furnishing recipes or anything that is rare, valuable and in demand.

I gotcha, a million a week. But what do you make an hour guaranteed? If you decided you wanted to make some money, how much can you make an hour at a guaranteed rate that does not involve carries?

Carries? I play SOLO now, always.
Please do not insinuate anything. That keeps the forum civil. 🤨

The gold per hour thinking is not fitting to measure your success. ☝️
That thinking is totally 2010. 😂
The return in gold is often not happening straight away. I mean, it is not gold drops we are talking about, that make the profit.

You should look up your total income per week. Or even better per month.
Sales are often better at weekends, because of more population. And grinding is easier during graveyard time in the week, mondays to thursdays, because of a lot less population. You've got to bring these two together.
If not, you are just lying to yourself by creating a random and misleading number.

Gold per hour... 😞

And the true Masters of commerce know when to sell and when to keep/store.
You do not want to sell at low prices when you can expect them to rise again in the near future. Or at/before events. Good traders know that and utilise ESOplus, Alt accounts, storage mules and the craftbag to maximise storage and profit respectively.

And all these can be pruchased with RL money, which is why I see that critically. It's unlikely to change and I've made my peace with that.
But still, one can purchase himself an advantage, if one desires it.

And btw, that one million is considered "not even trying" in many trading guilds. It really comes in almost passively.
The GM of a partner guild made 300 millions in the first week of Zeal of Zenithar event. I am not kidding. He's very public about it. You can easily find him on YouTube, if you search. And before you ask, I will not call him out by name, because I do not know if it is against his will or even community rules on the forums. Okay?

If you feel you know nothing about trading, start by joining a trading guild with a discord. Most advertise in Zone Chat of the trading hubs they are in: Mournhold, Vivec City, Belkarth, etc.
Pay their fees and talk to them. Ask them. Learn from them. That is the best way. Youtubers rarely know what is what and are mostly clickbaiting you.

I believe I understand your line of thinking, you're not used to playing an MMO where you have plenty of products you can get as a guaranteed drop that can sell for a decent rate of cash. For example in RuneScape, you can sell dragon ones for 3k each, and green dragon hide for 1.5k each around the time I was playing many years ago. My character was strong so I calculated how much I could kill, how much I could profit an hour. That's common in MMORPGs.

This issue with ESO is the only thing you can kill for a close to a guaranteed drop is animals for hide, and it's not even always guaranteed, also it's not worth enough to make the average player want to farm it. It simply isn't worth enough. ESO doesn't have any product that you can farm at a guaranteed hourly rate for profit. You say it's not realistic to farm at an hourly rate, but that's just because ESO doesn't offer a proper reward loot system for players to utilize, however you can farm XP for an hourly rate, just not products for profit... If this has been your only MMORPG, just say that. Lol

Lol the point I'm getting at is that this is a game, not IRL, and also technically irl would have the features if you're doing online shopping.

Lol that's cute how you're going on about not knowing anything about trading as I merch in other MMORPGs. Your buddy made 300m by flipping. For example. The rare thesis recipe item used to make 150% xp pvp food is being flipped all the time where people might buy it for as low as 150m and re sell it for 300m. You need loads of gold to be able to flip like this and you can make a lot of money at a fast rate.

Getting there is an issue. Earning gold per hour isn't something you can fathom cause you're not used to it cause this game does it badly while other games do it flawlessly. During this event, powering leveling CP has got me casual rate of 9m XP an hour which could be raised to 9.5-10m an hour depending how try hard we want to be.

Just because you may not know much about trading doesn't mean you should dismiss the other side of trading. Lol

I dunno. It seems like there are a lot of assumptions you are making.

Here is the thing about eso, you are not required to trade to play. The trade system is a time saver nothing more. You can in fact bypass the entire system and still play just fine. Afterall there isn't anything that you can buy or trade that you can not obtain with time, effort, and/or skill. The trade system is a shortcut to those ends and rewards players who dedicate their time to fill those that don't want to do the above.

You don't need a lot of gold to actually play the game.

If you can point me to a single gameplay aspect that 100% requires gold expenditures that is debilitating to gameplay please let me know.

My friend was just complaining to me to where she often has a plan to that costs about 13 or more heartwood, and she might need like 30+ of that particular furniture for her housing project, and she's tried farming it, which takes her about an hour to just get 30 which isn't even close to a stack... She doesn't want to farm that long for so little...

That’s a problem with furnishings and drop rates, not with how trade works. ZoS makes everything take an inordinate amount of heartwood and mundane runes, even things that are not enchanting or woodworking plans. Some of the recipes are nonsensical. Just look at the comparison of those mats with things like bast and regulus and it’s easy to see that ZoS has skewed these recipes very unfavorably. That’s a fix that should absolutely take place but, again, has nothing to do with trading.

The thing though with me is that I am always farming for mats because I know better than to buy them at a vendor. I just store them up for when I want to furnish a home, then I don't have to run around looking for mats. I don't do a ton of sales, but I make my money really by spending my gold wisely.

The guy you quoted said he had a friend who had to run all over for heartwood. Well, I am really into housing yet..,

And while we are at it.

(etc.)

Just plan ahead for what you want to do. Stop relying on a vendor to fix emergencies for you.

This is the second time in this thread I see a simple example of just how planning ahead can save a person a lot of problems.

Billium813 · December 2022

BlueRaven wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

Zos has other more functional issues to worry about. Primarily they need to focus on replacing servers and fixing combat issues while also making money.

The type of upgrades we are talking is going to be very costly on the hardware end. For no guarantee that the system will improve.

So please explain exactly why zos should make this change at massive expense and possible loss of playerbase for almost no financial return, when the current system works.

Personally, if I were in charge and forced to consider something like this I would look at revamping loot tables and item drop rates, gold sinks, inventory options.

I would also go as far as making everything bind on pickup as the resulting loss of player base would be the same and it would cost the company less to implement.

Simple because it would bring more players back to the game. You gotta understand that the vast majority of the player base quit of frustration due to being broke,

I don't believe that for a second. Gold is easy to come by in game. Just by playing the game you can afford everything you need and a good amount of things you want. That aside there is no way we as players can know why the majority of players that left the game did so. The vast majority never posts here.

That's absolutely false but humor me this, how much money can you consistently make in an hour as profit and elder scrolls online and what exactly are you doing to make that cash? what are you selling?

All my toons have Jewelry lv50, so any intricate drops from the writs go on the free market All upgrade mats that I do not need. Surplus items with value, like hot overland drops in good traits Companion gear in purple Valuable stuff from all kinds of dailies Or high value ingredients for potion making, like corn flower, for example I even sell repair kits, because I get a free stack of 200 every week from writs [\list] A million per week is always possible and I am not even farming the valuable stuff, like the latest furnishing recipes or anything that is rare, valuable and in demand.

I gotcha, a million a week. But what do you make an hour guaranteed? If you decided you wanted to make some money, how much can you make an hour at a guaranteed rate that does not involve carries?

Carries? I play SOLO now, always.
Please do not insinuate anything. That keeps the forum civil. 🤨

The gold per hour thinking is not fitting to measure your success. ☝️
That thinking is totally 2010. 😂
The return in gold is often not happening straight away. I mean, it is not gold drops we are talking about, that make the profit.

You should look up your total income per week. Or even better per month.
Sales are often better at weekends, because of more population. And grinding is easier during graveyard time in the week, mondays to thursdays, because of a lot less population. You've got to bring these two together.
If not, you are just lying to yourself by creating a random and misleading number.

Gold per hour... 😞

And the true Masters of commerce know when to sell and when to keep/store.
You do not want to sell at low prices when you can expect them to rise again in the near future. Or at/before events. Good traders know that and utilise ESOplus, Alt accounts, storage mules and the craftbag to maximise storage and profit respectively.

And all these can be pruchased with RL money, which is why I see that critically. It's unlikely to change and I've made my peace with that.
But still, one can purchase himself an advantage, if one desires it.

And btw, that one million is considered "not even trying" in many trading guilds. It really comes in almost passively.
The GM of a partner guild made 300 millions in the first week of Zeal of Zenithar event. I am not kidding. He's very public about it. You can easily find him on YouTube, if you search. And before you ask, I will not call him out by name, because I do not know if it is against his will or even community rules on the forums. Okay?

If you feel you know nothing about trading, start by joining a trading guild with a discord. Most advertise in Zone Chat of the trading hubs they are in: Mournhold, Vivec City, Belkarth, etc.
Pay their fees and talk to them. Ask them. Learn from them. That is the best way. Youtubers rarely know what is what and are mostly clickbaiting you.

I believe I understand your line of thinking, you're not used to playing an MMO where you have plenty of products you can get as a guaranteed drop that can sell for a decent rate of cash. For example in RuneScape, you can sell dragon ones for 3k each, and green dragon hide for 1.5k each around the time I was playing many years ago. My character was strong so I calculated how much I could kill, how much I could profit an hour. That's common in MMORPGs.

This issue with ESO is the only thing you can kill for a close to a guaranteed drop is animals for hide, and it's not even always guaranteed, also it's not worth enough to make the average player want to farm it. It simply isn't worth enough. ESO doesn't have any product that you can farm at a guaranteed hourly rate for profit. You say it's not realistic to farm at an hourly rate, but that's just because ESO doesn't offer a proper reward loot system for players to utilize, however you can farm XP for an hourly rate, just not products for profit... If this has been your only MMORPG, just say that. Lol

Lol the point I'm getting at is that this is a game, not IRL, and also technically irl would have the features if you're doing online shopping.

Lol that's cute how you're going on about not knowing anything about trading as I merch in other MMORPGs. Your buddy made 300m by flipping. For example. The rare thesis recipe item used to make 150% xp pvp food is being flipped all the time where people might buy it for as low as 150m and re sell it for 300m. You need loads of gold to be able to flip like this and you can make a lot of money at a fast rate.

Getting there is an issue. Earning gold per hour isn't something you can fathom cause you're not used to it cause this game does it badly while other games do it flawlessly. During this event, powering leveling CP has got me casual rate of 9m XP an hour which could be raised to 9.5-10m an hour depending how try hard we want to be.

Just because you may not know much about trading doesn't mean you should dismiss the other side of trading. Lol

I dunno. It seems like there are a lot of assumptions you are making.

Here is the thing about eso, you are not required to trade to play. The trade system is a time saver nothing more. You can in fact bypass the entire system and still play just fine. Afterall there isn't anything that you can buy or trade that you can not obtain with time, effort, and/or skill. The trade system is a shortcut to those ends and rewards players who dedicate their time to fill those that don't want to do the above.

You don't need a lot of gold to actually play the game.

If you can point me to a single gameplay aspect that 100% requires gold expenditures that is debilitating to gameplay please let me know.

My friend was just complaining to me to where she often has a plan to that costs about 13 or more heartwood, and she might need like 30+ of that particular furniture for her housing project, and she's tried farming it, which takes her about an hour to just get 30 which isn't even close to a stack... She doesn't want to farm that long for so little...

That’s a problem with furnishings and drop rates, not with how trade works. ZoS makes everything take an inordinate amount of heartwood and mundane runes, even things that are not enchanting or woodworking plans. Some of the recipes are nonsensical. Just look at the comparison of those mats with things like bast and regulus and it’s easy to see that ZoS has skewed these recipes very unfavorably. That’s a fix that should absolutely take place but, again, has nothing to do with trading.

The thing though with me is that I am always farming for mats because I know better than to buy them at a vendor. I just store them up for when I want to furnish a home, then I don't have to run around looking for mats. I don't do a ton of sales, but I make my money really by spending my gold wisely.
The guy you quoted said he had a friend who had to run all over for heartwood. Well, I am really into housing yet..,

And while we are at it.

(etc.)

Just plan ahead for what you want to do. Stop relying on a vendor to fix emergencies for you.

This is the second time in this thread I see a simple example of just how planning ahead can save a person a lot of problems.

These numbers look very similar to mine and I don't even farm mats THAT often. I may run around Craglorn for 10 minutes maybe... 2-3 times a week when queued for stuff or waiting on a group, but really I just DONT SELL MATS and I never seem to want for any mats either. I have decorated multiple houses, make pots for myself and friends, and am currently doing Imperial Writs. No issues personally.

I think one issue is that players tend to throw away Woodworking Surveys and/or skip over lumber nodes (same with Alchemy surveys/nodes). I get it, Rosin and Kuta aren't worth as much as Tempering Alloy or Dreugh Wax, but the Heartwood and Mundane Rune are worth it.

Additionally, as someone who doesn't purchase mats, doesn't sell mats, and passively farms mats, it does seem like Heartwood is a bit rarer than other mats. I farm all the lumber nodes I find and I still seem to have less Heartwood than other resources. It may just be that most of the more common furnishings USE Heartwood... but I think it would be good if ZOS bumped that resource drop rate just a bit to compensate.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask ZOS to rebalance drop rates for mats to coincide with recipe demands! I seriously doubt that they have done that since 2015...

*EDIT: Oh, it may be worth noting that I run the Plentiful Harvest passive on all my PvE characters

King_Jude · December 2022

BlueRaven wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

Zos has other more functional issues to worry about. Primarily they need to focus on replacing servers and fixing combat issues while also making money.

The type of upgrades we are talking is going to be very costly on the hardware end. For no guarantee that the system will improve.

So please explain exactly why zos should make this change at massive expense and possible loss of playerbase for almost no financial return, when the current system works.

Personally, if I were in charge and forced to consider something like this I would look at revamping loot tables and item drop rates, gold sinks, inventory options.

I would also go as far as making everything bind on pickup as the resulting loss of player base would be the same and it would cost the company less to implement.

Simple because it would bring more players back to the game. You gotta understand that the vast majority of the player base quit of frustration due to being broke,

I don't believe that for a second. Gold is easy to come by in game. Just by playing the game you can afford everything you need and a good amount of things you want. That aside there is no way we as players can know why the majority of players that left the game did so. The vast majority never posts here.

That's absolutely false but humor me this, how much money can you consistently make in an hour as profit and elder scrolls online and what exactly are you doing to make that cash? what are you selling?

All my toons have Jewelry lv50, so any intricate drops from the writs go on the free market All upgrade mats that I do not need. Surplus items with value, like hot overland drops in good traits Companion gear in purple Valuable stuff from all kinds of dailies Or high value ingredients for potion making, like corn flower, for example I even sell repair kits, because I get a free stack of 200 every week from writs [\list] A million per week is always possible and I am not even farming the valuable stuff, like the latest furnishing recipes or anything that is rare, valuable and in demand.

I gotcha, a million a week. But what do you make an hour guaranteed? If you decided you wanted to make some money, how much can you make an hour at a guaranteed rate that does not involve carries?

Carries? I play SOLO now, always.
Please do not insinuate anything. That keeps the forum civil. 🤨

The gold per hour thinking is not fitting to measure your success. ☝️
That thinking is totally 2010. 😂
The return in gold is often not happening straight away. I mean, it is not gold drops we are talking about, that make the profit.

You should look up your total income per week. Or even better per month.
Sales are often better at weekends, because of more population. And grinding is easier during graveyard time in the week, mondays to thursdays, because of a lot less population. You've got to bring these two together.
If not, you are just lying to yourself by creating a random and misleading number.

Gold per hour... 😞

And the true Masters of commerce know when to sell and when to keep/store.
You do not want to sell at low prices when you can expect them to rise again in the near future. Or at/before events. Good traders know that and utilise ESOplus, Alt accounts, storage mules and the craftbag to maximise storage and profit respectively.

And all these can be pruchased with RL money, which is why I see that critically. It's unlikely to change and I've made my peace with that.
But still, one can purchase himself an advantage, if one desires it.

And btw, that one million is considered "not even trying" in many trading guilds. It really comes in almost passively.
The GM of a partner guild made 300 millions in the first week of Zeal of Zenithar event. I am not kidding. He's very public about it. You can easily find him on YouTube, if you search. And before you ask, I will not call him out by name, because I do not know if it is against his will or even community rules on the forums. Okay?

If you feel you know nothing about trading, start by joining a trading guild with a discord. Most advertise in Zone Chat of the trading hubs they are in: Mournhold, Vivec City, Belkarth, etc.
Pay their fees and talk to them. Ask them. Learn from them. That is the best way. Youtubers rarely know what is what and are mostly clickbaiting you.

I believe I understand your line of thinking, you're not used to playing an MMO where you have plenty of products you can get as a guaranteed drop that can sell for a decent rate of cash. For example in RuneScape, you can sell dragon ones for 3k each, and green dragon hide for 1.5k each around the time I was playing many years ago. My character was strong so I calculated how much I could kill, how much I could profit an hour. That's common in MMORPGs.

This issue with ESO is the only thing you can kill for a close to a guaranteed drop is animals for hide, and it's not even always guaranteed, also it's not worth enough to make the average player want to farm it. It simply isn't worth enough. ESO doesn't have any product that you can farm at a guaranteed hourly rate for profit. You say it's not realistic to farm at an hourly rate, but that's just because ESO doesn't offer a proper reward loot system for players to utilize, however you can farm XP for an hourly rate, just not products for profit... If this has been your only MMORPG, just say that. Lol

Lol the point I'm getting at is that this is a game, not IRL, and also technically irl would have the features if you're doing online shopping.

Lol that's cute how you're going on about not knowing anything about trading as I merch in other MMORPGs. Your buddy made 300m by flipping. For example. The rare thesis recipe item used to make 150% xp pvp food is being flipped all the time where people might buy it for as low as 150m and re sell it for 300m. You need loads of gold to be able to flip like this and you can make a lot of money at a fast rate.

Getting there is an issue. Earning gold per hour isn't something you can fathom cause you're not used to it cause this game does it badly while other games do it flawlessly. During this event, powering leveling CP has got me casual rate of 9m XP an hour which could be raised to 9.5-10m an hour depending how try hard we want to be.

Just because you may not know much about trading doesn't mean you should dismiss the other side of trading. Lol

I dunno. It seems like there are a lot of assumptions you are making.

Here is the thing about eso, you are not required to trade to play. The trade system is a time saver nothing more. You can in fact bypass the entire system and still play just fine. Afterall there isn't anything that you can buy or trade that you can not obtain with time, effort, and/or skill. The trade system is a shortcut to those ends and rewards players who dedicate their time to fill those that don't want to do the above.

You don't need a lot of gold to actually play the game.

If you can point me to a single gameplay aspect that 100% requires gold expenditures that is debilitating to gameplay please let me know.

My friend was just complaining to me to where she often has a plan to that costs about 13 or more heartwood, and she might need like 30+ of that particular furniture for her housing project, and she's tried farming it, which takes her about an hour to just get 30 which isn't even close to a stack... She doesn't want to farm that long for so little...

That’s a problem with furnishings and drop rates, not with how trade works. ZoS makes everything take an inordinate amount of heartwood and mundane runes, even things that are not enchanting or woodworking plans. Some of the recipes are nonsensical. Just look at the comparison of those mats with things like bast and regulus and it’s easy to see that ZoS has skewed these recipes very unfavorably. That’s a fix that should absolutely take place but, again, has nothing to do with trading.

The thing though with me is that I am always farming for mats because I know better than to buy them at a vendor. I just store them up for when I want to furnish a home, then I don't have to run around looking for mats. I don't do a ton of sales, but I make my money really by spending my gold wisely.

The guy you quoted said he had a friend who had to run all over for heartwood. Well, I am really into housing yet..,

And while we are at it.

(etc.)

Just plan ahead for what you want to do. Stop relying on a vendor to fix emergencies for you.

This is the second time in this thread I see a simple example of just how planning ahead can save a person a lot of problems.

Personally, I believe that varies, also the screenshots of the materials you've posted isn't a lot. For example say someone is creating something that takes up 60 housing spaces, that heartwood would only make 42 of them, so you don't even have enough but you took your time and prepped out plenty. Thats just one type of item too, housing takes up a lot more than you think. You gotta understand just because something might work for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone else. This is an MMORPG with the freedom to play as you want and not everyone plays the same way.

You say to just plan ahead but people maybe planning for other things, multiple things, you really cannot plan for everything. People do housing, people do trials, people do trifectas, people do PvP, people farm, there's just so much for people to do, you can't stop and do everything, but you can pick and choose what you prep for and what you buy so you can get tasks done sooner. That's absolutely realistic when you think about it.

King_Jude · December 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wayshrine fees must be kept because they are a gold sink. Gold sinks aren't flaws, they are necessary part of combating inflation.

I wasn't talking about wayshrine fees. Why bring them up?

Because you asked this question...

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

What other system must be kept because it is a gold sink?

So, I answered it. Wayshrine fees are another system that must be kept because it is a gold sink.

I didn't ask about wayshrine fees. I only noted that requiring a gold sink in the form of bidding for guild vendors each week was not a good design decision. Some gold sinks are better than others.

The game needs gold sinks. I can think of nine off the top of my head and quite frankly I think it needs more.

1 - Repairs, which is off set by repair kits.

2 - Bag space improvements.

3 - Wayshrines.

4 - Buying houses (off set by crown purchase option).

5 - Furniture lux vendor.

6 - Home and achievement furniture vendors.

7 - Golden (monster gear) vendor (off set by alliance points [I think]).

And more on point for this thread…

8 - The games “cut” on sold items through guild store.

9 - Guild’s “bid” on the guild vendors.

This last one is a big deal, it pulls a lot of gold out of circulation. And that extra gold stops inflation in a major way. The more gold a player has the less the price for things matter. Having a major gold sink helps.
(The problem though is that there are so many guild vendors now that price for each vendor could go down if there is not enough new guilds who want vendors around to offset it.)

I am still a bit baffled about what this thread is really about. A centralized hub (if that is the idea here) is just a bad idea in an economic sense, RP sense, and a game engine stand point.

The first two problems have already been touched on but let me elaborate on that third point.

Think of a standard guild vendor now, the amount of items posted allowed is 30 per guild member. Guilds are limited to 500 accounts max. So at most there can only be (30x500=)15,000 posted items at any one time.
Think about the delay it takes to search for something right now. Now multiply that by how many guilds will be “attached” to this centralized listing. Now think of all the people posting things and buying things constantly. Now let’s add for the game to determine what the average price should be of everything posted? (Do things that don’t sell count?) And you can already see where the wheels are starting to come off.

The guild vendor system we have now is fine. Guilds compete for better higher traffic areas so that increases gold sinks as the bidding gets higher. If where those guilds post things becomes less important through a centralized listing, than the need for “better locations” goes away, which decreases the gold sink on prime locations, which puts more gold in circulation, and which makes everything more expensive for rare items, while making cheaper (common) items pointless to post due to massive amounts of competition.

The current system promotes a healthy balance.

If you read the thread, I never once talkee about doing away with the guild traders gold sinks. I spoke on a way to improve the current system without scrapping how guild traders are obtained, so why do you guys keep talking about gold sinks if those post doesn't affect it?

Just reread the post, I did explain it. In fact, with my suggestions, more gold would be sinked, but you didn't see that did you?

"Player's should be able to find Market Boards in every country or a central trading Country/Island area that all guild traders in the game are linked too displaying all listed items in one place giving steady consistent pricing, and competitive prices."

That change would end guild traders as we know them. There would be zero reason to compete for heavy traffic locations. It would allow for easier market manipulation and it would drive many who play the economy like end game away from the game all together.
You didn't say you wanted to remove trade guilds or the gold sink but that is exactly what would happen if this change was made.

Actually every location is worth grabbing and so many guilds are still trying to get them. It doesn't many any location worthless. But yes no location would be a prime location as just having one makes it essential still. So obtaining one won't lose any value and it brings value to the countless guild traders nobody ever looks at.

Question: would you say that TTC brings value to the countless guild traders nobody ever looks at?

From my perspective, TTC shows when those far-flung traders have bargains, which are usually snagged by players who have the time to watch TTC, not casual players. Those bargain items are then resold at hubs, for hub prices.

So I'd say that TTC brings sales to countless guild traders nobody ever looks at because of bargain hunter-flippers, but I think I'd be hard pressed to say that those far-flung locations have gotten more valuable because of it. The average Thieves Outpost guild trader usually isn't a good trading guild with a full store, you know?

You might be giving more credit to TTC than is due. There are entire guilds built around nothing but trading. These players spend as much time getting good at trading as a progression guild does going for trial trifectas. Bargains are often gone before they get to TTC. TTC is not a current and live representation of what items are available.

Responding to something else the current system allows for many levels of participating in the market. Players that only occasionally want to sell things can use zone chat. Guild members can sell to other guild members through a trader that is seen only by that guild. Many guilds get public traders and charge no dues. That works well for players that want to start selling items more frequently. And then you have the end game traders that pool together to get the prime spots and make millions each week. It is a dynamic market that allows all to participate at the level they feel comfortable.

Buying a particular item can take time but compare the time to visit some traders to the time it might take to obtain the item yourself and being able to purchase even with jumping to different traders is a time saver. Again a few quality of life changes would be welcome but we don't need a drastic change.

Only in ESO have I seen selling in zone chat being frowned upon, you say that we can sell in zone chat which we really can, but players will verbally attack a player if the player sells in chat like how RuneScape was done way back in the day by spamming chat until the player receives PM's or trade requests. In ESO, players are quick to message the player or address you in zone chat in the rudest way, on PC and Console, however on console they they take it a step further and will link TTC prices on players if they don't agree with the price that it's being sold for.

BlueRaven · December 2022

King_*** wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

Zos has other more functional issues to worry about. Primarily they need to focus on replacing servers and fixing combat issues while also making money.

The type of upgrades we are talking is going to be very costly on the hardware end. For no guarantee that the system will improve.

So please explain exactly why zos should make this change at massive expense and possible loss of playerbase for almost no financial return, when the current system works.

Personally, if I were in charge and forced to consider something like this I would look at revamping loot tables and item drop rates, gold sinks, inventory options.

I would also go as far as making everything bind on pickup as the resulting loss of player base would be the same and it would cost the company less to implement.

Simple because it would bring more players back to the game. You gotta understand that the vast majority of the player base quit of frustration due to being broke,

I don't believe that for a second. Gold is easy to come by in game. Just by playing the game you can afford everything you need and a good amount of things you want. That aside there is no way we as players can know why the majority of players that left the game did so. The vast majority never posts here.

That's absolutely false but humor me this, how much money can you consistently make in an hour as profit and elder scrolls online and what exactly are you doing to make that cash? what are you selling?

All my toons have Jewelry lv50, so any intricate drops from the writs go on the free market All upgrade mats that I do not need. Surplus items with value, like hot overland drops in good traits Companion gear in purple Valuable stuff from all kinds of dailies Or high value ingredients for potion making, like corn flower, for example I even sell repair kits, because I get a free stack of 200 every week from writs [\list] A million per week is always possible and I am not even farming the valuable stuff, like the latest furnishing recipes or anything that is rare, valuable and in demand.

I gotcha, a million a week. But what do you make an hour guaranteed? If you decided you wanted to make some money, how much can you make an hour at a guaranteed rate that does not involve carries?

Carries? I play SOLO now, always.
Please do not insinuate anything. That keeps the forum civil. 🤨

The gold per hour thinking is not fitting to measure your success. ☝️
That thinking is totally 2010. 😂
The return in gold is often not happening straight away. I mean, it is not gold drops we are talking about, that make the profit.

You should look up your total income per week. Or even better per month.
Sales are often better at weekends, because of more population. And grinding is easier during graveyard time in the week, mondays to thursdays, because of a lot less population. You've got to bring these two together.
If not, you are just lying to yourself by creating a random and misleading number.

Gold per hour... 😞

And the true Masters of commerce know when to sell and when to keep/store.
You do not want to sell at low prices when you can expect them to rise again in the near future. Or at/before events. Good traders know that and utilise ESOplus, Alt accounts, storage mules and the craftbag to maximise storage and profit respectively.

And all these can be pruchased with RL money, which is why I see that critically. It's unlikely to change and I've made my peace with that.
But still, one can purchase himself an advantage, if one desires it.

And btw, that one million is considered "not even trying" in many trading guilds. It really comes in almost passively.
The GM of a partner guild made 300 millions in the first week of Zeal of Zenithar event. I am not kidding. He's very public about it. You can easily find him on YouTube, if you search. And before you ask, I will not call him out by name, because I do not know if it is against his will or even community rules on the forums. Okay?

If you feel you know nothing about trading, start by joining a trading guild with a discord. Most advertise in Zone Chat of the trading hubs they are in: Mournhold, Vivec City, Belkarth, etc.
Pay their fees and talk to them. Ask them. Learn from them. That is the best way. Youtubers rarely know what is what and are mostly clickbaiting you.

I believe I understand your line of thinking, you're not used to playing an MMO where you have plenty of products you can get as a guaranteed drop that can sell for a decent rate of cash. For example in RuneScape, you can sell dragon ones for 3k each, and green dragon hide for 1.5k each around the time I was playing many years ago. My character was strong so I calculated how much I could kill, how much I could profit an hour. That's common in MMORPGs.

This issue with ESO is the only thing you can kill for a close to a guaranteed drop is animals for hide, and it's not even always guaranteed, also it's not worth enough to make the average player want to farm it. It simply isn't worth enough. ESO doesn't have any product that you can farm at a guaranteed hourly rate for profit. You say it's not realistic to farm at an hourly rate, but that's just because ESO doesn't offer a proper reward loot system for players to utilize, however you can farm XP for an hourly rate, just not products for profit... If this has been your only MMORPG, just say that. Lol

Lol the point I'm getting at is that this is a game, not IRL, and also technically irl would have the features if you're doing online shopping.

Lol that's cute how you're going on about not knowing anything about trading as I merch in other MMORPGs. Your buddy made 300m by flipping. For example. The rare thesis recipe item used to make 150% xp pvp food is being flipped all the time where people might buy it for as low as 150m and re sell it for 300m. You need loads of gold to be able to flip like this and you can make a lot of money at a fast rate.

Getting there is an issue. Earning gold per hour isn't something you can fathom cause you're not used to it cause this game does it badly while other games do it flawlessly. During this event, powering leveling CP has got me casual rate of 9m XP an hour which could be raised to 9.5-10m an hour depending how try hard we want to be.

Just because you may not know much about trading doesn't mean you should dismiss the other side of trading. Lol

I dunno. It seems like there are a lot of assumptions you are making.

Here is the thing about eso, you are not required to trade to play. The trade system is a time saver nothing more. You can in fact bypass the entire system and still play just fine. Afterall there isn't anything that you can buy or trade that you can not obtain with time, effort, and/or skill. The trade system is a shortcut to those ends and rewards players who dedicate their time to fill those that don't want to do the above.

You don't need a lot of gold to actually play the game.

If you can point me to a single gameplay aspect that 100% requires gold expenditures that is debilitating to gameplay please let me know.

My friend was just complaining to me to where she often has a plan to that costs about 13 or more heartwood, and she might need like 30+ of that particular furniture for her housing project, and she's tried farming it, which takes her about an hour to just get 30 which isn't even close to a stack... She doesn't want to farm that long for so little...

That’s a problem with furnishings and drop rates, not with how trade works. ZoS makes everything take an inordinate amount of heartwood and mundane runes, even things that are not enchanting or woodworking plans. Some of the recipes are nonsensical. Just look at the comparison of those mats with things like bast and regulus and it’s easy to see that ZoS has skewed these recipes very unfavorably. That’s a fix that should absolutely take place but, again, has nothing to do with trading.

The thing though with me is that I am always farming for mats because I know better than to buy them at a vendor. I just store them up for when I want to furnish a home, then I don't have to run around looking for mats. I don't do a ton of sales, but I make my money really by spending my gold wisely.

The guy you quoted said he had a friend who had to run all over for heartwood. Well, I am really into housing yet..,

And while we are at it.

(etc.)

Just plan ahead for what you want to do. Stop relying on a vendor to fix emergencies for you.

This is the second time in this thread I see a simple example of just how planning ahead can save a person a lot of problems.

Personally, I believe that varies, also the screenshots of the materials you've posted isn't a lot. For example say someone is creating something that takes up 60 housing spaces, that heartwood would only make 42 of them, so you don't even have enough but you took your time and prepped out plenty. Thats just one type of item too, housing takes up a lot more than you think. You gotta understand just because something might work for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone else. This is an MMORPG with the freedom to play as you want and not everyone plays the same way.

You say to just plan ahead but people maybe planning for other things, multiple things, you really cannot plan for everything. People do housing, people do trials, people do trifectas, people do PvP, people farm, there's just so much for people to do, you can't stop and do everything, but you can pick and choose what you prep for and what you buy so you can get tasks done sooner. That's absolutely realistic when you think about it.

No one is just filling their houses with just wood working items.

I am an officer in a housing guild and I run a housing contest in another. That is plenty.

What's more there are achievement furnishings, home furnishings...

I just made this home and it hardly made a dent.

That is plenty of mats.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Plan ahead? How does that help finding gear for a character?

BlueRaven · December 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Plan ahead? How does that help finding gear for a character?

Well you don't do this for a start.

King_*** wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

A central auction house would blow up the economy and make it far worse than it already is in my opinion. The cost of everything would explode and the people who play ESO as kind of a practice for buying/selling stocks in the real world would end up with WAY too much influence. Better to make those players have to spend hours searching each vendor spread out all over the realm.

What about when you're money is low, but you gotta buy a set of gear from the traders, yet you're on a budget, also people are waiting on you so you guys can get going back to the content you were doing with your team. It's extremely redundant to have to search from trader to trader to find the best deals and to see if that item you can afford is still located as it's last seen location... It's a major hindrance to the player.

(Bolded for emphasis)

If I am going to do harder content, and I am not sure about my gear I ask ahead, and start planning.

I look up builds ("Hack the Minotaur" is a great resource) and start figuring things out. And if I need crafted gear, I make it, BEFORE it becomes an issue. I do the best I can and with what resources I have available. And if I can't do it, I ask for help, again before it becomes an issue. You know, plan ahead...

Nic727 · December 2022

Maybe not a popular opinion, but I hate guild trader. I understand the concept behind that, but I hate the fact of having to go around the whole Tamriel to find the item I need/want.

I’m not against removing the guild traders, but I’m for adding a market like in RuneScape where you can freely buy and sell items to any players.

King_Jude · December 2022

Northwold wrote: »

I think it's worth remembering that not every player's taste is the same and that this forum tends to lean towards hardcore players who think "casual" play is multiple logins per week or, indeed, logging in every single day.

In particular, some of the descriptions of why the current system is "fine" don't ring true in any sensible description of reality.

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently. Really? I'm sorry, did someone find a magical way for ESO not to have loading screens and loading waits? Do you have any idea how long it would take to check every trader? This is supposed to be a game. Not a job.

(And to people who say "lazy players don't get rewards" the answer has got to be: "if players find a game sufficiently tedious they will go play something else". It's not really a badge of honour that someone, somewhere, spends their days checking out the listings of every trader in the game by visiting every trader in turn.)

The gold sinks point, so regularly trotted out as the answer to everything. Even if this thread were arguing for a central auction house (and it isn't), if you lose the trader gold sink, *just make another one*. Selling fees, bank fees, whatever. There is literally no reason why, just because the big gold sink now is X, it must forever and always be X. It is a strawman and a non-point.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't. And then people argue that they're "lazy" etc and we go round in circles again. No, they're not lazy, they just don't enjoy the same things you do.

Really, there is no point in even participating in these discussions if people are not prepared to accept that different players have different tastes and the way the trading system has been set up really does rub a lot of players up the wrong way. In a way that, speaking for myself only, I have never seen in any other MMO. It is bizarre and drives people away from the game, and it is perfectly legitimate for people to feel this way about it.

It simply is not normal for a system fundamental to the functioning of an MMO to be gated behind so many unnecessary hoops. And it simply is not credible for people to be pretending that trading is a "mini game" with no relevance to the wider MMO.

You can wish that everyone liked the same things you do. They don't. You can pretend that everyone who doesn't like the same things you do is lazy. They aren't. You can claim that central system X isn't important to an MMO because you can do everything you could do with central system X by living in the game, not having a job, and never sleeping. No one sensible will agree with you. You can pretend that even the slightest change to a system you are fine with but other people dislike will break the entire game and the apocalypse shall be upon us. It won't.

A discussion involves trying to understand other points of view and admitting they exist. Not dismissing everything you don't like as "laziness" or with points that summarise to "just be more like me and be less like you".

I couldn't agree more! I don't understand how people can understand that in the world we live in, everyone's different but they tend to thingmk everyone should play as they do. Lol also what they define as hard work verses lazy is baffling.

I just came to PC in March. My CP is already 2491 and counting. Might reach 2900+ by the end of the event. Last event my cp was 1200 when it started... You know how expensive 150% xp pots are? You know how long it takes to farm Aetherial dust and perfect roe? You know how boring that is too, these aren't guaranteed drops either... Aetherial dust are 800k each on PC, perfect roe are 50-90k each on PC... If a players goal is to reach 3600 as quick as they can, these these average hardcore gamers with their casual methods would take years to get there... Smh but they don't see that...

This just one aspect of playing but not the only way that I play! On top of that I have 18 characters at CP, I like to create builds and test them for my pvp guild to give to my guild members and friends to use. I like to participating player housing as I have my own guild hall. I like to do PvE from time to time because I like skins and personalities.

I've already beat all the question again that's storyline based. I finished most of every question every zone already on PC as I already did on PlayStation. All of this takes so much time but the players in these forums are disregarding all of that. I've completed all of that from March till now It hasn't even been a full year yet. Yet to their standards I'm a casual player or lazy lol.

King_Jude · December 2022

Vulkunne wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.

It's a pointless suggestion (because as a selling mechanic it is worthless) that is used to dismiss any complaint or productive idea re trading and has been deployed as such in every discussion of trading I've participated in on this forum. So I'm probably going to check out of the discussion here it's not productive.

For a number of years I sold exclusively in zone chat. Mostly commodities, especially things like Alchemy ingredients, including other things such as motifs. Had my own issues with Guilds as many I had run across during that time were kind of arrogant and selfish.

Eventually I was invited to several really good trade guilds and now sell from there. One reason to go with a Guild is many of these Guilds spend an enormous amount of gold on Kiosks for each week and the tax money helps them with maint costs.

Something I wouldn't mind seeing however is the implementation of a chat channel solely dedicated for the purpose of trade, like New World has and it works great. Guilds could use this to advertise from as well. Just one minor change that doesn't ruin the ESO experience and could provide some incentive for expanding trade a bit.

It could have all of that and more. I feel like the current guild trader system ruins the experience as it is. You used to sell in chat and felt players/guilds were selfish until you finally found a guild that you liked to use their traders, yet you don't even see the irony in that... Even with that system is still hinders players but you turn the other cheek.

King_Jude · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items usually cost way more money than a casual players can afford. Someone who can buy something like the Sixth House Banner is already making money in this game just fine. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst. I've had to actually hunt for an item that was both rare and cheap really hard only a couple of times in the multiple years I've played this game.

I won't deny a central hub would make it easier to find. But, upending an entire economy over a very rare occurrence isn't a compelling argument to me personally.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

How can you call it a rare occurrence if it's constant on console?

spartaxoxo · December 2022

BlueRaven wrote: »

That is plenty of mats.

It really depends on which size homes you're decorating and your furniture tastes. I personally like the woodworking furniture as a general rule much more than the stuff available from blacksmith and clothing. So, that's not that much wood to me. One of my biggest expenses in this game is housing. It is very expensive. That said, I make enough that I'm able to buy stuff using casual trading. But, I won't deny it is very expensive. The drop rate on Heartwood and Runes are particularly low, and they are needed in big quantities for a lot of things, including somethings that aren't even woodworking on enchanting furniture.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

King_*** wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items usually cost way more money than a casual players can afford. Someone who can buy something like the Sixth House Banner is already making money in this game just fine. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst. I've had to actually hunt for an item that was both rare and cheap really hard only a couple of times in the multiple years I've played this game.

I won't deny a central hub would make it easier to find. But, upending an entire economy over a very rare occurrence isn't a compelling argument to me personally.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

How can you call it a rare occurrence if it's constant on console?

Because it's not a constant on console. The majority of what players buy, the items that actually move and don't need to be relisted, are available at the capital city traders. And frankly, they are generally easier to find at those traders too.

Zodiarkslayer · December 2022

Billium813 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.

There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.

Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.

So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that

I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.

It would be nice if there was a separate "buy/sell" zone chat; similar to /yell or /emote. Perhaps it could be called [snip]? I dislike players selling in zone chat only because it clutters up the chat window.

[snip] ...
🤣🤣🤣

[edited for profanity bypass & re-quoting]

King_Jude · December 2022

heaven13 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

King_*** wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A practical objection: Trading guild pages can already start to chug when getting near their maximum of 15,000 items. A market board in a major city would be updating many more items than that, and I'm not sure how well the servers would cope.

Another practical objection: in the past, ZOS had to limit the number of calls trading add-ons like Master Merchant and TTC could make on the server in a short period of time because it was impacting server performance. When you talk about updating a large Market Board as well as item histories, price points, etc. as a base game feature rather than an addon and thus subject to a much higher demand from the broader playerbase, ZOS would have to address the underlying issues first for it to even be feasible.

Then that means the system doesn't work well, and ZOS would have to change the system as a whole, which could be the main focus of the upcoming 2023. Upgrading the game giving player's and the servers a better quality of life that would fit better into the game.

Zos has other more functional issues to worry about. Primarily they need to focus on replacing servers and fixing combat issues while also making money.

The type of upgrades we are talking is going to be very costly on the hardware end. For no guarantee that the system will improve.

So please explain exactly why zos should make this change at massive expense and possible loss of playerbase for almost no financial return, when the current system works.

Personally, if I were in charge and forced to consider something like this I would look at revamping loot tables and item drop rates, gold sinks, inventory options.

I would also go as far as making everything bind on pickup as the resulting loss of player base would be the same and it would cost the company less to implement.

Simple because it would bring more players back to the game. You gotta understand that the vast majority of the player base quit of frustration due to being broke,

I don't believe that for a second. Gold is easy to come by in game. Just by playing the game you can afford everything you need and a good amount of things you want. That aside there is no way we as players can know why the majority of players that left the game did so. The vast majority never posts here.

That's absolutely false but humor me this, how much money can you consistently make in an hour as profit and elder scrolls online and what exactly are you doing to make that cash? what are you selling?

All my toons have Jewelry lv50, so any intricate drops from the writs go on the free market All upgrade mats that I do not need. Surplus items with value, like hot overland drops in good traits Companion gear in purple Valuable stuff from all kinds of dailies Or high value ingredients for potion making, like corn flower, for example I even sell repair kits, because I get a free stack of 200 every week from writs [\list] A million per week is always possible and I am not even farming the valuable stuff, like the latest furnishing recipes or anything that is rare, valuable and in demand.

I gotcha, a million a week. But what do you make an hour guaranteed? If you decided you wanted to make some money, how much can you make an hour at a guaranteed rate that does not involve carries?

Carries? I play SOLO now, always.
Please do not insinuate anything. That keeps the forum civil. 🤨

The gold per hour thinking is not fitting to measure your success. ☝️
That thinking is totally 2010. 😂
The return in gold is often not happening straight away. I mean, it is not gold drops we are talking about, that make the profit.

You should look up your total income per week. Or even better per month.
Sales are often better at weekends, because of more population. And grinding is easier during graveyard time in the week, mondays to thursdays, because of a lot less population. You've got to bring these two together.
If not, you are just lying to yourself by creating a random and misleading number.

Gold per hour... 😞

And the true Masters of commerce know when to sell and when to keep/store.
You do not want to sell at low prices when you can expect them to rise again in the near future. Or at/before events. Good traders know that and utilise ESOplus, Alt accounts, storage mules and the craftbag to maximise storage and profit respectively.

And all these can be pruchased with RL money, which is why I see that critically. It's unlikely to change and I've made my peace with that.
But still, one can purchase himself an advantage, if one desires it.

And btw, that one million is considered "not even trying" in many trading guilds. It really comes in almost passively.
The GM of a partner guild made 300 millions in the first week of Zeal of Zenithar event. I am not kidding. He's very public about it. You can easily find him on YouTube, if you search. And before you ask, I will not call him out by name, because I do not know if it is against his will or even community rules on the forums. Okay?

If you feel you know nothing about trading, start by joining a trading guild with a discord. Most advertise in Zone Chat of the trading hubs they are in: Mournhold, Vivec City, Belkarth, etc.
Pay their fees and talk to them. Ask them. Learn from them. That is the best way. Youtubers rarely know what is what and are mostly clickbaiting you.

I believe I understand your line of thinking, you're not used to playing an MMO where you have plenty of products you can get as a guaranteed drop that can sell for a decent rate of cash. For example in RuneScape, you can sell dragon ones for 3k each, and green dragon hide for 1.5k each around the time I was playing many years ago. My character was strong so I calculated how much I could kill, how much I could profit an hour. That's common in MMORPGs.

This issue with ESO is the only thing you can kill for a close to a guaranteed drop is animals for hide, and it's not even always guaranteed, also it's not worth enough to make the average player want to farm it. It simply isn't worth enough. ESO doesn't have any product that you can farm at a guaranteed hourly rate for profit. You say it's not realistic to farm at an hourly rate, but that's just because ESO doesn't offer a proper reward loot system for players to utilize, however you can farm XP for an hourly rate, just not products for profit... If this has been your only MMORPG, just say that. Lol

Lol the point I'm getting at is that this is a game, not IRL, and also technically irl would have the features if you're doing online shopping.

Lol that's cute how you're going on about not knowing anything about trading as I merch in other MMORPGs. Your buddy made 300m by flipping. For example. The rare thesis recipe item used to make 150% xp pvp food is being flipped all the time where people might buy it for as low as 150m and re sell it for 300m. You need loads of gold to be able to flip like this and you can make a lot of money at a fast rate.

Getting there is an issue. Earning gold per hour isn't something you can fathom cause you're not used to it cause this game does it badly while other games do it flawlessly. During this event, powering leveling CP has got me casual rate of 9m XP an hour which could be raised to 9.5-10m an hour depending how try hard we want to be.

Just because you may not know much about trading doesn't mean you should dismiss the other side of trading. Lol

I dunno. It seems like there are a lot of assumptions you are making.

Here is the thing about eso, you are not required to trade to play. The trade system is a time saver nothing more. You can in fact bypass the entire system and still play just fine. Afterall there isn't anything that you can buy or trade that you can not obtain with time, effort, and/or skill. The trade system is a shortcut to those ends and rewards players who dedicate their time to fill those that don't want to do the above.

You don't need a lot of gold to actually play the game.

If you can point me to a single gameplay aspect that 100% requires gold expenditures that is debilitating to gameplay please let me know.

My friend was just complaining to me to where she often has a plan to that costs about 13 or more heartwood, and she might need like 30+ of that particular furniture for her housing project, and she's tried farming it, which takes her about an hour to just get 30 which isn't even close to a stack... She doesn't want to farm that long for so little...

That’s a problem with furnishings and drop rates, not with how trade works. ZoS makes everything take an inordinate amount of heartwood and mundane runes, even things that are not enchanting or woodworking plans. Some of the recipes are nonsensical. Just look at the comparison of those mats with things like bast and regulus and it’s easy to see that ZoS has skewed these recipes very unfavorably. That’s a fix that should absolutely take place but, again, has nothing to do with trading.

It has everything to do with trading, as improving the trade system would allow players to easily find more of the product for far better deals far quicker. Also this would give more competitive pricings making those cheaper.