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Does the queue favor DPS leader roles?
Billium813
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So, there's this "behavior" with dungeon queueing that I've noticed for over a year now. I've taken advantage of it MULTIPLE times and it almost always works. The other night, I was discussing this behavior with a group member and they didn't believe me, so we tested it a bit. I'm looking for confirmation that other have witnessed this or that I'm crazy, but it SEEMS to work...
It seems that, if you are in a group of people queuing for a dungeon, if the queue does not pop instantly, then promote the DPS to leader and requeue. It's likely that then the queue will then instantly pop when the DPS requeues the group. 60% of the time, it works... every time. It SEEMS to me like the queue has a natural bias lean towards DPS leaders. Maybe because DPS queue more often and the grouping calculation starts by assembling DPS roles, then filling in support? Not sure, would love to discuss tinfoil hat theories on what the queue code is attempting to do to create the behaviors we all witness.
--- The story ---
But this isn't an isolated test/scenario. I've used this "trick" hundreds of times. The Tank will queue my group and we will be placed in queue wait, I will ask them to promote me (DPS) to leader. I will requeue us and it will instantly pop. OR, I will pass leader to DPS and tell THEM to queue us. They will queue the group and it will instantly pop. Does it always work? No. In groups of 2, it only seems to work like ~60% of the time and never with double DPS. In groups of 3? I haven't seen it fail once and I run pledges every day; sometimes solo and sometimes with friends. How much does CP level influence it? Not sure since I haven't done EXTENSIVE testing of this, but me and my friends are 1500CP-2000CP. Iv seen a DPS with 800CP also get this to work.
It seems that, if you are in a group of people queuing for a dungeon, if the queue does not pop instantly, then promote the DPS to leader and requeue. It's likely that then the queue will then instantly pop when the DPS requeues the group. 60% of the time, it works... every time. It SEEMS to me like the queue has a natural bias lean towards DPS leaders. Maybe because DPS queue more often and the grouping calculation starts by assembling DPS roles, then filling in support? Not sure, would love to discuss tinfoil hat theories on what the queue code is attempting to do to create the behaviors we all witness.
--- The story ---
I was in a group with 3 players (DPS, Healer, Tank) and we all wanted to queue for that days pledges. I was Tank and leader of the group. I queued us for the 3 pledge dungeons and pressed "Join Queue". We proceeded to be placed in the queue, where we waited for 5 minutes with nothing happening. We remarked how it's odd that a 3/4 group would take this long for the queue to pop. However, I've dealt with this behavior before and knew the "trick" to get it to insta-pop.
I passed leader to the DPS and asked them to queue. They said "umm, why", but I just told them to try it. As soon as they pressed "Join Queue", it instantly popped... the DPS was like "waaaaat?", but I knew that this would likely work; I'v seen it countless times before.
After that pledge was done, the random DPS that had joined us had parted ways and it was just the 3 of us again. I had been passed leader at the start, so I went to queue us for the remaining 2 pledges. I selected the dungeons, pressed "Join Queue" and we started waiting.... again. Now, I had told the DPS that we should do the same trick, but the DPS didn't believe me that it would work! So, I passed leader to the Healer and told them to queue us. The Healer pressed "Join Queue" and again, we were placed in the queue to wait. The Healer then left the queue and promoted the DPS to leader. The DPS selected the dungeons, pressed "Join Queue", and it instantly popped again.
AFTER THAT, we decided to change it up some more! For the 3rd dungeon (DLC), I was going to go DPS and DPS changed to Tank (same characters, just Armory Assistant changes). DPS was still leader at the time, so now Tank was leader. They queued us for the DLC pledge dungeon and we were placed in queue... waiting once more! The Tank then passed leader to me (DPS), I placed us in queue and pressed "Join Queue" and it instantly popped.
I passed leader to the DPS and asked them to queue. They said "umm, why", but I just told them to try it. As soon as they pressed "Join Queue", it instantly popped... the DPS was like "waaaaat?", but I knew that this would likely work; I'v seen it countless times before.
After that pledge was done, the random DPS that had joined us had parted ways and it was just the 3 of us again. I had been passed leader at the start, so I went to queue us for the remaining 2 pledges. I selected the dungeons, pressed "Join Queue" and we started waiting.... again. Now, I had told the DPS that we should do the same trick, but the DPS didn't believe me that it would work! So, I passed leader to the Healer and told them to queue us. The Healer pressed "Join Queue" and again, we were placed in the queue to wait. The Healer then left the queue and promoted the DPS to leader. The DPS selected the dungeons, pressed "Join Queue", and it instantly popped again.
AFTER THAT, we decided to change it up some more! For the 3rd dungeon (DLC), I was going to go DPS and DPS changed to Tank (same characters, just Armory Assistant changes). DPS was still leader at the time, so now Tank was leader. They queued us for the DLC pledge dungeon and we were placed in queue... waiting once more! The Tank then passed leader to me (DPS), I placed us in queue and pressed "Join Queue" and it instantly popped.
But this isn't an isolated test/scenario. I've used this "trick" hundreds of times. The Tank will queue my group and we will be placed in queue wait, I will ask them to promote me (DPS) to leader. I will requeue us and it will instantly pop. OR, I will pass leader to DPS and tell THEM to queue us. They will queue the group and it will instantly pop. Does it always work? No. In groups of 2, it only seems to work like ~60% of the time and never with double DPS. In groups of 3? I haven't seen it fail once and I run pledges every day; sometimes solo and sometimes with friends. How much does CP level influence it? Not sure since I haven't done EXTENSIVE testing of this, but me and my friends are 1500CP-2000CP. Iv seen a DPS with 800CP also get this to work.
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Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Might it have something to do with the re-queueing action itself rather than the lead? When on a tank, and grouped with another player, the pop is usually very fast, but sometimes it might take longer, and I found that when I re-queue it then pops instantaneously.1 -
Billium813✭✭✭✭✭
✭Might it have something to do with the re-queueing action itself rather than the lead? When on a tank, and grouped with another player, the pop is usually very fast, but sometimes it might take longer, and I found that when I re-queue it then pops instantaneously.
I have also noticed sometimes where, the queue will pop and everyone starts to ready up. If someone declines, we are placed back in the queue, where we can end up sitting for many minutes! However, if we immediately LEAVE the queue, then re-queue, it will instantly pop again! It's very odd behavior that I am trying to nail down the optimal strats. Making a change (like swapping leads or toggling the Group Dungeon Mode), then re-queuing does seem to help.
I would say that having a Tank in the group increases your odds of queue pops, but not necessarily. That isn't always the case though, especially in 3 man groups (from my experience).0 -
dmnqwk✭✭✭✭✭Assume the code is awful and has a lot of logical inconsistencies.
1. If you have only 1 dps, they need to queue. Trying to work out why will send you insane. Just realise the code has issues recognising you need a 2nd dps in the group if they're not queuing.
2. If you're a healer and the group pops BUT fails to form (someone declines or doesn't accept) don't sit there waiting for 2 hours like someone did - leave queue and re-join. Don't know why the dungeon finder is so poor versus other games with billion dollar income over their lifetime but it's a hassle for players trying to learn these unwritten rules.2 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For some reason the game doesn't like when I think and he like you together.
It's a long time it's been known that you need to swap lead if you get stuck for a long time. I don't believe it's just DPS holding it but just some swapping these thing0 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have noticed this too. It seems that the queue logic gets confused when a support role is the lead. It deprioritizes the group in some way. There are all sorts of issues with the queue. Not much more I can say as it's very difficult to prove for sure there are issues and ZOS isn't saying much on the matter.1 -
patricknl76✭✭✭It defenitely happens , was on my tank (with crown )with 1 heal and 1 dd in que for pledge. After 5 minutes we gave the dd the crown . We requeed and it instantly popped. Also happens when que together with a dd. When i que together with a heal its not working .
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Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Billium813 wrote: »So, there's this "behavior" with dungeon queueing that I've noticed for over a year now. I've taken advantage of it MULTIPLE times and it almost always works. The other night, I was discussing this behavior with a group member and they didn't believe me, so we tested it a bit. I'm looking for confirmation that other have witnessed this or that I'm crazy, but it SEEMS to work...
It seems that, if you are in a group of people queuing for a dungeon, if the queue does not pop instantly, then promote the DPS to leader and requeue. It's likely that then the queue will then instantly pop when the DPS requeues the group. 60% of the time, it works... every time. It SEEMS to me like the queue has a natural bias lean towards DPS leaders. Maybe because DPS queue more often and the grouping calculation starts by assembling DPS roles, then filling in support? Not sure, would love to discuss tinfoil hat theories on what the queue code is attempting to do to create the behaviors we all witness.
--- The story ---I was in a group with 3 players (DPS, Healer, Tank) and we all wanted to queue for that days pledges. I was Tank and leader of the group. I queued us for the 3 pledge dungeons and pressed "Join Queue". We proceeded to be placed in the queue, where we waited for 5 minutes with nothing happening. We remarked how it's odd that a 3/4 group would take this long for the queue to pop. However, I've dealt with this behavior before and knew the "trick" to get it to insta-pop.
I passed leader to the DPS and asked them to queue. They said "umm, why", but I just told them to try it. As soon as they pressed "Join Queue", it instantly popped... the DPS was like "waaaaat?", but I knew that this would likely work; I'v seen it countless times before.
After that pledge was done, the random DPS that had joined us had parted ways and it was just the 3 of us again. I had been passed leader at the start, so I went to queue us for the remaining 2 pledges. I selected the dungeons, pressed "Join Queue" and we started waiting.... again. Now, I had told the DPS that we should do the same trick, but the DPS didn't believe me that it would work! So, I passed leader to the Healer and told them to queue us. The Healer pressed "Join Queue" and again, we were placed in the queue to wait. The Healer then left the queue and promoted the DPS to leader. The DPS selected the dungeons, pressed "Join Queue", and it instantly popped again.
AFTER THAT, we decided to change it up some more! For the 3rd dungeon (DLC), I was going to go DPS and DPS changed to Tank (same characters, just Armory Assistant changes). DPS was still leader at the time, so now Tank was leader. They queued us for the DLC pledge dungeon and we were placed in queue... waiting once more! The Tank then passed leader to me (DPS), I placed us in queue and pressed "Join Queue" and it instantly popped.
But this isn't an isolated test/scenario. I've used this "trick" hundreds of times. The Tank will queue my group and we will be placed in queue wait, I will ask them to promote me (DPS) to leader. I will requeue us and it will instantly pop. OR, I will pass leader to DPS and tell THEM to queue us. They will queue the group and it will instantly pop. Does it always work? No. In groups of 2, it only seems to work like ~60% of the time and never with double DPS. In groups of 3? I haven't seen it fail once and I run pledges every day; sometimes solo and sometimes with friends. How much does CP level influence it? Not sure since I haven't done EXTENSIVE testing of this, but me and my friends are 1500CP-2000CP. Iv seen a DPS with 800CP also get this to work.
Oh there's no doubt whatsoever that something is up with the algorithm.
When I queue as Tank, usually it builds a group pretty quickly and we're off. However, -if- in the event that someone should decline the invite, whatever that really consists of, then the problems start. I'm willing to bet Declining the queue isn't really them saying 'no' as much as people going offline or something similar happening for whatever reason.
But if this situation is encountered as you stated, you're further ahead dropping the queue and going back, choose someone else as lead, etc. It seems if everyone is ready to go you're good. If someone cannot connect and 'Declines' for whatever reason then the system puts the group on hold and however that handler is setup in the code doesn't seem to be able to manage this well.
This is a reason why I normally run dungeons (for dailies) closer to prime time, when there's plenty of players ready to go rather than having the group handler get hung up repeatedly during the day, which happens frequently. (3) players ready to go and the (4th) gets Declined and we sit there for 10 to 15 waiting for the handler to pick-up a 4th person (otherwise update itself) and it rarely does, frequently gets hung up again and the (3) person party repeats this same annoying cycle. When this happens dropping group and starting over is the only real work around and it works often.Edited by Vulkunne on December 10, 2022 9:24AMThank you for your attention to this matter.0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, sometimes the queue hangs, leaving queue and queuing again reset it somehow.Might it have something to do with the re-queueing action itself rather than the lead? When on a tank, and grouped with another player, the pop is usually very fast, but sometimes it might take longer, and I found that when I re-queue it then pops instantaneously.
Also if you leaves queue and go back in you don't loose your position in the queue. This is nice but kind of suspect that system creates a lot of problems.
One thing I know is that two DD in a group get priority, this makes sense as the queue first tries to fill up missing spots groups, it then has an second function who create groups out of solo players.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Don't have much to offer but can confirm the same observations:
- if in a group with support and DD, let the DD queue, otherwise chances are high that it hangs
- if queuing as a tank (solo), and it hasn't popped after one minute or five minutes maximum, then re-queue
- similarly with healer, just a bit longer
- trying to refill a spot while mid-dungeon is spotty at best, and just doesn't work most of the time.0
