Boss Health Changes Comms

Rimskjegg · August 2022

@Kusto

Boss nerf is one thing and doesn't affect accessibility that much, fights just last longer. But they didn't nerf portals and extra mechanics that usually play huge factor whether some lower end groups clear or not. They nerfed Z'Maja by 10% but kept portal crystals the same lol. Portals are where the low end groups struggle not the boss. I just pugged vCR+0 the other day and we had to send 4 dps down. We cleared but what about next patch, send half the group down? Lol. And what about vSS last boss portal, can't send more than 3 there. The cat there wasn't nerfed and again, newer players struggle there now on Iive. Content will be less accessible if portals dont get nerfed also.

Since ZoS aren't responding so far, perhaps you can please confirm whether or not you tested this on the PTS week 5 and the crystals and cat (Eternal Servant) really weren't reduced in health? Because this is crucial information.

qcell · August 2022

I wrote about health changes and how it affects the newest content. Linking it on the larger HP adjustments thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7685983/#Comment_7685983

casparian · August 2022

At this point it's clear that

ZOS doesn't have the time or bandwidth right now even to communicate about existing changes, let alone make new ones.
ZOS doesn't have the time or bandwidth right now to do a full pass on what needs to be changed and by how much.
ZOS is probably relying on collecting data once this patch goes live to let them know what changes they actually need to make to enemy health and other difficulty sources. The real vet difficulty changes are going to come in the next patch once they collect data on the impact of the other U35 changes, and that was probably always the plan. The current 10% reduction is just throwing players a bone to tide us over until U36.

"Break things now and fix them later" is not how I would manage any project, but it has always been ZOS' mode of operating and is almost certainly their current plan.

jaws343 · August 2022

casparian wrote: »

At this point it's clear that
ZOS doesn't have the time or bandwidth right now even to communicate about existing changes, let alone make new ones.

ZOS doesn't have the time or bandwidth right now to do a full pass on what needs to be changed and by how much.

ZOS is probably relying on collecting data once this patch goes live to let them know what changes they actually need to make to enemy health and other difficulty sources. The real vet difficulty changes are going to come in the next patch once they collect data on the impact of the other U35 changes, and that was probably always the plan. The current 10% reduction is just throwing players a bone to tide us over until U36.

"Break things now and fix them later" is not how I would manage any project, but it has always been ZOS' mode of operating and is almost certainly their current plan.

I'd wager that this was always the plan and these current health changes were a result of the playerbase complaints.

p4l4mu7 · August 2022

I believe nobody is inspecting the developers and they are trying the most effective ways to skip working, community is testing everything for free and giving feedback.
I saw modding communities on singleplayer games putting so much more work to their mods they absolutely do for free. A triple A mmorpg shouldn't get 10% health point decrease across all dungeon and trials in name of balancing, [SNIP]

Dawnblade · August 2022

casparian wrote: »

At this point it's clear that
ZOS doesn't have the time or bandwidth right now even to communicate about existing changes, let alone make new ones.

ZOS doesn't have the time or bandwidth right now to do a full pass on what needs to be changed and by how much.

ZOS is probably relying on collecting data once this patch goes live to let them know what changes they actually need to make to enemy health and other difficulty sources. The real vet difficulty changes are going to come in the next patch once they collect data on the impact of the other U35 changes, and that was probably always the plan. The current 10% reduction is just throwing players a bone to tide us over until U36.

"Break things now and fix them later" is not how I would manage any project, but it has always been ZOS' mode of operating and is almost certainly their current plan.

QFT

[SNIP] break things now with a 'plan' to iterate changes later.

Do it right the first time or don't do it at all should be the approach.

Jazraena · August 2022

p4l4mu7 wrote: »

I believe nobody is inspecting the developers and they are trying the most effective ways to skip working, community is testing everything for free and giving feedback.
I saw modding communities on singleplayer games putting so much more work to their mods they absolutely do for free. A triple A mmorpg shouldn't get 10% health point decrease across all dungeon and trials in name of balancing, [SNIP]

Oh, I have not a shred of doubt that it's not developers doing this.

In fact, I'd not be surprised if the devs stated concerns and were told to shut up.

wolfie1.0. · August 2022

Jazraena wrote: »

p4l4mu7 wrote: »

I believe nobody is inspecting the developers and they are trying the most effective ways to skip working, community is testing everything for free and giving feedback.
I saw modding communities on singleplayer games putting so much more work to their mods they absolutely do for free. A triple A mmorpg shouldn't get 10% health point decrease across all dungeon and trials in name of balancing, you just sat there and changed numbers instead of testing anything, are you guys locked in a basement and being forced to work for free, or do you really hate your job that you don't want to do anything productive.

Oh, I have not a shred of doubt that it's not developers doing this.

In fact, I'd not be surprised if the devs stated concerns and were told to shut up.

In thr end it doesn't matter who is responsible individually. Actions and changes made are reflective of the whole organization. It doesn't matter if it came from Microsoft CEO or John/Jane Doe in customer service. It all reflects on ZOS and their product ESO.

maxchaos92 · August 2022

Omg guys what I am seeing.
I left the game costantly during the last 10 months,one month back and one left,but this is clearly the nail in the coffin.
Even craglorn look empty when before there was like 40 people waiting for someone to start a random raid.

What an end for this,I'm sad but satisfied at the same time,because they started a while ago to take a bad approach,starting from giving mythic items and the nerf them,never fixing the pvp lag etc. They will got what they deserve,I miss the time when we challenge ourself to use siroria even in mobile fights because the only alternative was bsw o spell strategist,and the meta stayed the same for years.

Now is a back and forth to let you buy the new dlc and then the new dlc again.
P.S my eso plus expired 1 years ago,when things started to decline,at least for me.

Jazraena · August 2022

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

p4l4mu7 wrote: »

I believe nobody is inspecting the developers and they are trying the most effective ways to skip working, community is testing everything for free and giving feedback.
I saw modding communities on singleplayer games putting so much more work to their mods they absolutely do for free. A triple A mmorpg shouldn't get 10% health point decrease across all dungeon and trials in name of balancing, you just sat there and changed numbers instead of testing anything, are you guys locked in a basement and being forced to work for free, or do you really hate your job that you don't want to do anything productive.

Oh, I have not a shred of doubt that it's not developers doing this.

In fact, I'd not be surprised if the devs stated concerns and were told to shut up.

In thr end it doesn't matter who is responsible individually. Actions and changes made are reflective of the whole organization. It doesn't matter if it came from Microsoft CEO or John/Jane Doe in customer service. It all reflects on ZOS and their product ESO.

Oh, certainly.

I only objected because p4 was targeting the devs specifically there. I don't think they actually deserve that.

ZOS_Suserial · August 2022

Greetings all,

Please remember that while it’s all right to disagree and debate with each other. Provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, being rude, etc. To community members, devs, and others is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game and is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

Any questions regarding such please see the Terms of service and Code of Conduct
Terms-Of-Service Code-Of-Conduct

Thank you for your understanding.

Rimskjegg · August 2022

ZOS_Suserial wrote: »

Greetings all,

Please remember that while it’s all right to disagree and debate with each other. Provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, being rude, etc. To community members, devs, and others is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game and is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

Any questions regarding such please see the Terms of service and Code of Conduct
Terms-Of-Service Code-Of-Conduct

Thank you for your understanding.

Thank you for reading this forum.

Now can you please forward to someone in the know that we would really like to know whether or not health was reduced on portal DPS races in portals such as vCR crystals and the Eternal Servant in vSS.

Parrot1986 · August 2022

[quote=

ZOS_Suserial wrote: »

Greetings all,

Please remember that while it’s all right to disagree and debate with each other. Provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, being rude, etc. To community members, devs, and others is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game and is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

Any questions regarding such please see the Terms of service and Code of Conduct
Terms-Of-Service Code-Of-Conduct

Thank you for your understanding.

Whilst I agree with this, the last official feedback we got in why none of this info was included in the patch notes was that the values varied and weren’t a flat numerical or percentage.

That’s turned out to be a lie essentially as all the values are around 10%. I suppose you could caveat that with 10.1% isn’t the same as 9.9% but in terms of communicating the changes made “around 10% reduction for all bosses” would have at least given a clearer view and not have felt like ZoS was treating its customers with contempt.

I’ve never experienced a patch where the communication from ZoS (not aimed at @ZOS_GinaBruno btw since she’s posting a lot what comes from various teams) has so many thinly veiled attacks on players.

From @ZOS_RichLambert with his disappointment in “knee jerk reactions” and lack of trust because the community could see what was wrong from the get go and ZoS have admitted they got it wrong now as well.

To the give us actual data and not anecdotal inclusion in the one of the previews from @ZOS_Gilliam, totally ignoring the fact that many in the community are so tired of testing and providing feedback only for it to feel it’s being ignored.

And finally now to the flat refusal to even include change values, saying they vary so much they can’t be included and expecting the community to go out and test each boss not only to confirm the values but test whether those values are correct enough to fix the issues caused by this patch and turns out they are all pretty much 10%

With the hardest content being untested for the most part how does this help with the aim of creating more accessible content?

Tie this into the fact that fungal grotto was deemed difficult enough to warrant a reduction but BRP wasn’t just screams like another knee jerk band aid reaction to an issue of ZoS’ making.

Luede · August 2022

if you can be sure of at least 2 things, then that the crown store has the highest priority and the text module in the forum to be nice to each other, the second highest. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Anhedonie · August 2022

First, blanket reduction is not gonna work. Second, 10% is just laughable.

boi_anachronism_ · August 2022

Players- if your gonna nerf dps 20%+, nerf overturned bosses like xalvakka to make them more accessible!

Devs: we nerfed all bosses 10%. Your welcome 🥴

[snip] even the end game players who live for the challenge are like no this needs more of a nerf otherwise people will just struggle and eventually give up.... And arenas? You mean the thing solo players actually do to get the "dungeon" experience if they don't want to play multiplayer content? Really? Like I can beat all that, I don't care but I remember my struggle with vma. Players gonna get to stage 5 and be like Noooooope.

It says a lot that players from OTHER games are now talking about how bad this patch is.

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

Necrotech_Master · August 2022

Anhedonie wrote: »

First, blanket reduction is not gonna work. Second, 10% is just laughable.

a blanket reduction could have worked if it was equivalent to the dps loss

but then it brings back to the point of "why make these changes in the first place"

Luke_Flamesword · August 2022

For me, most shocking thing is that they allegedly worked on this for months and how it ends?

1. Some things should be obvious for combat team (people working full time on this game for real cash) - for example:
- ground DOTs were useless with first patch compared to sticky ones
- whole changes nerfed everyone and point was to raise the floor for newbies so dungeons should have been nerfed at beginning

It wasn't something niche like wild combination of some sets and skills which is hard to predict. It should be obvious from day one. It puts combats team competence in very bad light.

2. After community critics they don't make small changes but big ones in some areas which only shows that they don't know what they are doing. Doing it with panic for last minute makes only more mess and involved dungeon team to make just very quick and poor "adjustments" - just nerfing every boss for something like 10%, because now they have time only for this.

I believe that balancing such a complex game is a nightmare, but making big, wild and rushed changes is not good for anyone. I'm supporting idea of closing the gap, but this is not the way.

Jaraal · August 2022

veznan5 wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Well, solo arenas are already a joke rather than a challenging content.

Vet vateshran is a struggle for a lot of people I know, mainly in dealing with the dps check while being hit by adds and aoes.
Since nothing in them got adjusted I'd say it'll become out of reach for most semi-casual players

So much for accessibility, right?

Is there even one thing we can identify that achieves their stated goal of “raising the floor”?

Rimskjegg · August 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

veznan5 wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Well, solo arenas are already a joke rather than a challenging content.

Vet vateshran is a struggle for a lot of people I know, mainly in dealing with the dps check while being hit by adds and aoes.
Since nothing in them got adjusted I'd say it'll become out of reach for most semi-casual players

So much for accessibility, right?

Is there even one thing we can identify that achieves their stated goal of “raising the floor”?

Buffing heavy attack builds.

That's about it, though. And that happened only in week 4.

Jaraal · August 2022

Rimskjegg wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

veznan5 wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Well, solo arenas are already a joke rather than a challenging content.

Vet vateshran is a struggle for a lot of people I know, mainly in dealing with the dps check while being hit by adds and aoes.
Since nothing in them got adjusted I'd say it'll become out of reach for most semi-casual players

So much for accessibility, right?

Is there even one thing we can identify that achieves their stated goal of “raising the floor”?

Buffing heavy attack builds.

That's about it, though. And that happened only in week 4.

Wait, so you mean the current one shot heavy attack meta in PvP is only going to get worse? Oy….

Rimskjegg · August 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

Rimskjegg wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

veznan5 wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Well, solo arenas are already a joke rather than a challenging content.

Vet vateshran is a struggle for a lot of people I know, mainly in dealing with the dps check while being hit by adds and aoes.
Since nothing in them got adjusted I'd say it'll become out of reach for most semi-casual players

So much for accessibility, right?

Is there even one thing we can identify that achieves their stated goal of “raising the floor”?

Buffing heavy attack builds.

That's about it, though. And that happened only in week 4.

Wait, so you mean the current one shot heavy attack meta in PvP is only going to get worse? Oy….

No, because the new Empower buff won't work in PvP.

Ragnarok0130 · August 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

First, blanket reduction is not gonna work. Second, 10% is just laughable.

a blanket reduction could have worked if it was equivalent to the dps loss

but then it brings back to the point of "why make these changes in the first place"

@Necrotech_Master true but only if they also adjusted the boss' outgoing damage to match the healing nerfs (which they haven't even mentioned) but you're right, then why even make all of these changes in the first place?

Jaraal · August 2022

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

First, blanket reduction is not gonna work. Second, 10% is just laughable.

a blanket reduction could have worked if it was equivalent to the dps loss

but then it brings back to the point of "why make these changes in the first place"

@Necrotech_Master true but only if they also adjusted the boss' outgoing damage to match the healing nerfs (which they haven't even mentioned) but you're right, then why even make all of these changes in the first place?

What I find odd is that their goal to "quell some of the obscene damage production at the high end" is contradicted by nerfing boss health.... only at the high end. Yet the people at the "floor" will still be fighting full health overland content with their 30-40% reduced damage output.

How does this even make any sense?