Stop the outrage: U35 combat changes are good*

omnidoh · July 2022

renne wrote: »

ALL content in the game should be clearable. If not, the game is NOT fine.

Not to mention the reason for these changes is allegedly to make it easier for average players to break into the content you have personally deemed unnecessary, which is clearly not the case with what these changes have done on the PTS.

It is clearable, by those who have the requisite determination, capability, and skill.
I never said it was unnecessary. I said it was optional.

Veteran content has been tuned as its namesake says: for "Veterans".
So it has been and will be, until the end of time.

AngelicaDLynn · July 2022

SgtSilock wrote: »

Have they nerfed the ring, to the point that it's not worth using anymore?

The ring it self no BUT with all the other changes I would say yes. I guess it would still work if you want just a spammable, an execute and 3 dots. You need to have one of those also be your heal or you will drop an incredible amount of DPS. Oh and you will still lose a lot of DPS as it is as the dots hit like wet noodles now.

Cyber10 · July 2022

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

5. The world first guild to get vDreadsailReef trifecta all quit because it will no longer be POSSIBLE to do it. Its not a case of adapt and do it slower but IT WONT EVEN BE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE anymore.

6. Noone will do last boss vRockgrove trifecta/hm because it wont be possible. At all.

7. Everyone does less dps including the casuals. Somehow they are convinced this is only a top dps nerf.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Exactley. Casuals will be pushed out and Top-Tier players will leave. This patch is just not good.

renne · July 2022

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I do agree with the original post, having less DPS means you get to see more of the boss mechanics which is a good thing because that's what trials should be about, coordinate together and work as a team to kill the boss. Coordinating everyone who spends 10 hrs a day perfecting their weaving and pull 120k dps in order to kill the boss in 2 mins isn't fun imo. Most of a player gameplay should happen inside the raid instance, not in front of a training dummy.

A boss fight especially the last one of the trial should last at least 10 minutes, not go in there with 120k dps and obliterate it in a couple of minutes.

If you're spending 10 minutes on the last boss you're not getting the speedrun and the trifecta.

Also what does it even MATTER that there's a handful of people on each platform that can "obliterate" the boss? The rest of us can't and the rest of us WILL see all the boss mechanics, most likely in repeated wipes and all their gory detail.

Just because a handful of people can burn through it, why punish the rest of us for that?

This is an utterly absurd attitude considering the vast majority of people doing or trying endgame content is already seeing all the things you're complaining that a handful of teams don't see because they're the top of top players on their platform.

renne · July 2022

omnidoh wrote: »

renne wrote: »

ALL content in the game should be clearable. If not, the game is NOT fine.

Not to mention the reason for these changes is allegedly to make it easier for average players to break into the content you have personally deemed unnecessary, which is clearly not the case with what these changes have done on the PTS.

It is clearable, by those who have the requisite determination, capability, and skill.

I never said it was unnecessary. I said it was optional.

Veteran content has been tuned as its namesake says: for "Veterans".
So it has been and will be, until the end of time.

People who are the top of top endgame players have literally said that XS and SS are going to be impossible to clear on console. Which means it is not clearable, even by those who have the """"requisite determination, capability, and skill."""".

Amottica · July 2022

I will put a link here from someone who has addressed the big picture, how the changes harm the more moderate player and the real issues. I suggest reading through it but will warn that it is not a light read. It is well written, detailed, and most importantly, well thought out.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611505/why-the-changes-in-update-35-miss-the-mark-and-fail-to-fix-the-issues-that-it-seeks-to-address/p1

starkerealm · July 2022

omnidoh wrote: »

All this rage, when really there are only a few simple questions.
Can everyone complete all normal Solo-Content?

Can everyone complete all normal Group-Content?

If the answers to both are "Yes", then the game is fine.
If not, then ZOS will and should adjust accordingly, if they want to continue to profit.
It's that simple.
Veteran-Anything is optional.

Well, that's easy.

No
No

That's goes for live as well.

Now, I'll grant you, you can probably carry someone, no matter how low their damage, through any piece of normal group content, but they can't clear it, they need a carry.

pklemming · July 2022

Yup, the 'optional' veteran content. Just give me my big red button I can press for loot already.

I love the way people don't understand that some people are only here for the vet content, for the challenge.

As long as their gameplay isn't affected,%$#^ everyone else.

This patch is hurting everyone for no reason whatsoever. There is no upside to this apart from reducing the server load by losing players.

Tannus15 · July 2022

I think people are also drastically over estimating how large the "top end player base" is who will adapt and be "fine".
Something like only 600 people have cleared vRG HM, and some of those "people" are the same person on a different account.
Literally everyone else isn't "fine".
Everyone else is trying to clear "something" and can't on live, from normal maelstrom to vRG HM people are struggling with something and are going to get set back with this update.

starkerealm · July 2022

pklemming wrote: »

Yup, the 'optional' veteran content. Just give me my big red button I can press for loot already.

I love the way people don't understand that some people are only here for the vet content, for the challenge.

As long as their gameplay isn't affected,%$#^ everyone else.

This patch is hurting everyone for no reason whatsoever. There is no upside to this apart from reducing the server load by losing players.

Legitimately, a lot of people don't understand how boring normal is after you've started running vet... anything. Stuff just does not connect at all on normal.

sorcmag01 · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.

The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+, which leads to older content becoming an absolute joke. See: vAS in 2 minutes 33 seconds - vCR in 2 minutes 49 seconds

Weaving isn't going anywhere. In fact, they just gave us two new animations for channeled spam abilities (Templar Jabs and DW Flurry) for better weaving feel. It's simply illogical to claim that ZOS is coming to take your animation canceling away.

The new LA damage still contributes roughly 8k damage to your parse, down from 11-15k in U34 (Roughly a 2-4% reduction in DPS contribution). It is still needed for optimal DPS, while reducing the DPS contribution is good for low APM players. In effect, the DPS penalty is less severe if you miss weaves, which is always good for players trying to learn weaving.

The biggest complaint from testing is that players find the 20 second DoT cooldown playstyle quite boring in comparison to 7-8 seconds, because ESO only has 10 skill slots. Here are some counter-points:
A real PvE combat situation is a lot more dynamic requiring you to react to enemy AoEs, attacks etc. Reducing the busy upkeep of DoTs reduces the stress of responding to fight situations and possibly can lead to better team co-ordination.

Actual PvE bosses are hardly stationary, and DPS occurs in "phases". DoTs doing damage over a long duration for the same cost means that the bulk of damage comes from spammables/set effects etc. This means higher damage in short bursts, which aligns with how DPS phases are designed.

Better sustain since the DoT costs remain unchanged

Less backbar swaps needed (bar swapping is a big complaint for many players - Oakensoul's popularity proved that)

U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

Here are some parses off the Internet:
StamCro 116k

MagSorc 103k

MagBlade 101k, literally spamming Surprise Attack

*Numbers aren't final in Week 1. Hopefully they consider feedback. I think it's a good start though.

Well, Overland may have just got a little more challenging, furthermore, I use mostly short DoT cooldowns, so this looks like it could be fun.

I liked your post xgoku1 by the way. Week 5 on PTS should be interesting. Cheers!

master_vanargand · July 2022

It's good to extend the DoT time.
I hate staring at the timer icon.
If action is important, it should be simple to rotation.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.

The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+, which leads to older content becoming an absolute joke. See: vAS in 2 minutes 33 seconds - vCR in 2 minutes 49 seconds

Weaving isn't going anywhere. In fact, they just gave us two new animations for channeled spam abilities (Templar Jabs and DW Flurry) for better weaving feel. It's simply illogical to claim that ZOS is coming to take your animation canceling away.

The new LA damage still contributes roughly 8k damage to your parse, down from 11-15k in U34 (Roughly a 2-4% reduction in DPS contribution). It is still needed for optimal DPS, while reducing the DPS contribution is good for low APM players. In effect, the DPS penalty is less severe if you miss weaves, which is always good for players trying to learn weaving.

The biggest complaint from testing is that players find the 20 second DoT cooldown playstyle quite boring in comparison to 7-8 seconds, because ESO only has 10 skill slots. Here are some counter-points:
A real PvE combat situation is a lot more dynamic requiring you to react to enemy AoEs, attacks etc. Reducing the busy upkeep of DoTs reduces the stress of responding to fight situations and possibly can lead to better team co-ordination.

Actual PvE bosses are hardly stationary, and DPS occurs in "phases". DoTs doing damage over a long duration for the same cost means that the bulk of damage comes from spammables/set effects etc. This means higher damage in short bursts, which aligns with how DPS phases are designed.

Better sustain since the DoT costs remain unchanged

Less backbar swaps needed (bar swapping is a big complaint for many players - Oakensoul's popularity proved that)

U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

Here are some parses off the Internet:
StamCro 116k

MagSorc 103k

MagBlade 101k, literally spamming Surprise Attack

*Numbers aren't final in Week 1. Hopefully they consider feedback. I think it's a good start though.

Honestly, I agree on the Light Attacks nerfs.

However, the need to buff Master at Arms more than they have to accommodate players that wish to focus on LA and HA.

DoT changes were the worst thing of the patch. Reverse that change alone or better yet, buff DPS of ground DoT’s and half the anger would be gone IMO.

pklemming · July 2022

The worst thing is putting these changes in to a 5-6 week window before pushing 'something' Live. There is no way this should be in a normal PTS window. They will end up putting something half-arsed live due to time constraints and then spend the next few patches fixing those issues, whilst losing players in the interim.

No two second dot and hot timers. It is great you are wanting to reduce server load, but you are already achieving that with the current patch notes quite admirably.

Arrodisia · July 2022

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

This. The changes are bad for casuals and new players which is the larger portion of gamers online playing.

If the devs wants to nerf something maybe it should be something end gamers with high dps use to cheese content, not the things new players and casuals use in solo content.

For example, reducing Backstabber perk in the champ tree would make more sense than hammering the class skills down and therefore imbalancing the classes further.

Back stabber is near useless as a solo player but packs a hard punch in a group of endgamers with a tank holding enemies with their back towards the group.

siddique · July 2022

Arrodisia wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

This. The changes are bad for casuals and new players which is the larger portion of gamers online playing.

If the devs wants to nerf something maybe it should be something end gamers with high dps use to cheese content, not the things new players and casuals use in solo content.

For example, reducing Backstabber perk in the champ tree would make more sense than hammering the class skills down and therefore imbalancing the classes further.

Back stabber is near useless as a solo player but packs a hard punch in a group of endgamers with a tank holding the enemy.

Why nerf in the first place since, 1) the latest endgame content is only doable with the current dps ceiling, and 2) older content becomes easier for midtier groups who can now clear it because of higher dps.

Whats the fascination (read: toxicity) against endgame players who put in the time and effort to better themselves to achieve the hardest titles in game? Let them play the way they want. You play the way you want.

Arrodisia · July 2022

siddique wrote: »

Arrodisia wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

This. The changes are bad for casuals and new players which is the larger portion of gamers online playing.

If the devs wants to nerf something maybe it should be something end gamers with high dps use to cheese content, not the things new players and casuals use in solo content.

For example, reducing Backstabber perk in the champ tree would make more sense than hammering the class skills down and therefore imbalancing the classes further.

Back stabber is near useless as a solo player but packs a hard punch in a group of endgamers with a tank holding the enemy.

Why nerf in the first place since, 1) the latest endgame content is only doable with the current dps ceiling, and 2) older content becomes easier for midtier groups who can now clear it because of higher dps.

Whats the fascination (read: toxicity) against endgame players who put in the time and effort to better themselves to achieve the hardest titles in game? Let them play the way they want. You play the way you want.

I hear your frustration. However, those are questions you should be asking the devs. I didn't slate the nerfs for this patch. They did. I'm only offering "suggestions" to minimize the impact on the players who will take the hardest hits. Players who aren't able to adapt as fast and as well.

siddique · July 2022

Arrodisia wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

Arrodisia wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

This. The changes are bad for casuals and new players which is the larger portion of gamers online playing.

If the devs wants to nerf something maybe it should be something end gamers with high dps use to cheese content, not the things new players and casuals use in solo content.

For example, reducing Backstabber perk in the champ tree would make more sense than hammering the class skills down and therefore imbalancing the classes further.

Back stabber is near useless as a solo player but packs a hard punch in a group of endgamers with a tank holding the enemy.

Why nerf in the first place since, 1) the latest endgame content is only doable with the current dps ceiling, and 2) older content becomes easier for midtier groups who can now clear it because of higher dps.

Whats the fascination (read: toxicity) against endgame players who put in the time and effort to better themselves to achieve the hardest titles in game? Let them play the way they want. You play the way you want.

I hear your frustration. However, those are questions you should be asking the devs. I didn't slate the nerfs for this patch. They did. I'm only offering "suggestions" to minimize the impact on the players who will take the hardest hits. Players who aren't able to adapt as fast and as well.

I didn't mean to say it was you, I was directing my frustration towards the devs in general as well. I understand very well that these absurd changes will cause more harm than good to the casual player.

P.s., the "you" was you in general, not you in particular.

starkerealm · July 2022

siddique wrote: »

Whats the fascination (read: toxicity) against endgame players who put in the time and effort to better themselves to achieve the hardest titles in game? Let them play the way they want. You play the way you want.

It's the thrill of Schadenfreude. They're looking at players who actually put the time and energy into the game to learn, and going, "yeah, that'll put them uppity [redacted] in their place and show 'em what's what."

Of course, this comes without any awareness that they're going to be hit harder by these same nerfs. Well, okay, not, "without any awareness," it's actively denying that this will smear them across the walls far harder. They're salivating at the prospect of endgame tears and actively ignoring anyone who tells them that this will hurt them because they believe those warnings are coming exclusively from the endgame community trying to concoct a coherent narrative to stop these changes.

It's incredibly self-destructive, but they really want to see everyone with trifectas suffer... and those same players aren't going to bother sticking around, anyway.

FeedbackOnly · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Fester82 wrote: »

Oh no I can only do 90k instead of 110kdps poor me

Cool. /s

The problem here isn't the players getting bumped from 110 to 90. They're fine. It's the players getting bumped from 30 down to 15, who are now being told by the combat team, "[redacted] all your hard work, get back in the kiddie pool where you belong, you [redacted] casual."

It's the players getting bumped from 40 down to 20-25, being told, "no, you filthy, [redacted] casual, you're not worthy of vet trials, go back to stinking up the dungeon queue."

It's the prog players at all levels (including "you"), that were working towards achievements like Planesbreaker or Swashbuckler, being told, "nah, you're not elite enough to be worthy of these achievements," as those achievements are put on a shelf, out of reach, and you're told you'll never see them again unless ZOS changes their mind on taking them away, and deigns to let you work towards them again.

Like, seriously, focusing on the top end is a misleading exercise. They'll be fine. It's the huge swath of players who can't parse 80 that are hurting.

Thought this patch was supposed to help less elite players.

starkerealm · July 2022

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fester82 wrote: »

Oh no I can only do 90k instead of 110kdps poor me

Cool. /s

The problem here isn't the players getting bumped from 110 to 90. They're fine. It's the players getting bumped from 30 down to 15, who are now being told by the combat team, "[redacted] all your hard work, get back in the kiddie pool where you belong, you [redacted] casual."

It's the players getting bumped from 40 down to 20-25, being told, "no, you filthy, [redacted] casual, you're not worthy of vet trials, go back to stinking up the dungeon queue."

It's the prog players at all levels (including "you"), that were working towards achievements like Planesbreaker or Swashbuckler, being told, "nah, you're not elite enough to be worthy of these achievements," as those achievements are put on a shelf, out of reach, and you're told you'll never see them again unless ZOS changes their mind on taking them away, and deigns to let you work towards them again.

Like, seriously, focusing on the top end is a misleading exercise. They'll be fine. It's the huge swath of players who can't parse 80 that are hurting.

Thought this patch was supposed to help less elite players.

Yeah, that's not what we got.

Ghaleb · July 2022

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Thought this patch was supposed to help less elite players.

Nope. There is a reason why so many players are up in arms. It is not due to “oh my DPS is nerfed” but rather due to the obvious lie / contrast in the posted mission statement (which could be agreeable) and the content of the patch.

You would also be furious if your political representative stated to aim to make schools work better to allow more students to achieve better grades and go study or whatever and then go and to obliterate public schools and leave private elite schools untouched.

And this is happening here.

As I stated in the PTS thread, my damage is down to 90k (80-82k if you take in the weirdly timed buff to the parse dummy…) and I’d be able to salvage some or most of my DPS in the coming weeks. What I absolutely despise is, that I won’t be able to complete vRG with my more casual guild. People I like playing with, whom I saw getting better. Guys and girls around 60 and upwards. Some with disabilities like reduced eye sight due to tumor-induced surgery at the age of *** 30 and their damage will be obliterated to *** as Most of them don’t do damage north of 40k DPS. We wiped so unbelievably often at Oaxiltso, that my face is probably ingrained in the stone in that arena.

But we now managed with the team to pass now and work on Bahsei. But this nerf is going to male this so so so much harder again, that I am tired of wiping again for *** ages simply because ZOS doesn’t understand their own game seemingly.

I am angry at these changes and already mentioned to my guildmates that I am out if I still have the same feeling after my vacation. And currently it doesn’t look good though and more likely for me to leave ESO.

And what makes me furious still is that ZOS sold High Isle fully well knowing that they would nerf the ever living *** out of their player base.

They will have earned 100€ from me for High Isle and ESO+ by August, which they wouldn’t have earned if I had learned of this roadmap earlier as the outcome is clear as day.

Additionally, I am a player who thoroughly enjoys high APM. I deliberately play a Necro in bar-swap hell as I find that engaging, covering my rotation, keeping mechanics covered, instructing / helping out raid mates with observations, rezzing mates, etc.

With the new changes, I now need to add a spammable 5-6 times to cover the gap between my first dot refresh and my last dot cast. I am not here to mash the same button. I find that boring and will not do that. ESO combat for me always felt dynamic. The new trials are engaging due to movement. This change takes a lot away.

And I won’t start about the issue with moving bosses and the long dot durations. Whoever came up with that simply doesn’t play ESO. /facepalm

Sorry for the long and unstructured post. Still angry and on mobile which makes structure harder.

renne · July 2022

Ghaleb wrote: »

And I won’t start about the issue with moving bosses and the long dot durations. Whoever came up with that simply doesn’t play ESO. /facepalm

This honestly is it right here. These are spreadsheet decisions from people who don't even play the game (or only play a nightblade in a bit of PvP and are sick of being killed by sorcs).

If the people who developed the game actually played it - and played at all levels, not saying they should be endgame or whatever - they'd realise that this patch is not doing any of the things that they intended it to do for "raising the floor" and that 20 second dot timers making the game into a mash-your-spammable button masher for everyone (because I recognise there are people who are down with playing like that), instead of a dynamic, skills based game, is not a good design choice.

Necrotech_Master · July 2022

Korsario wrote: »

[snip] When you let streamers dictate your game cotnent you have a problem.

[edited for baiting]

if only this were true, almost every ESO streamer/content creator is actually saying that everything in this update is extremely bad and poorly thought out lol

Vulkunne · July 2022

LordDragonMara wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

The power increase people are going to see is literally on dummy parses, and only from extremely specific builds and people.

I haven't found any raid videos from the U35 PTS yet, there's only Dummy parses to go on. I haven't seen any examples of actual combat content to compare with U34 Live, that's why I'm only talking about dummy parses.

Holycannoli wrote: »

LA weaving is not why people are jaded.

Yeah, people are tired of ZOS making big changes, it's been worse since 2020 is what I meant. I do think LA weaving is something that should be addressed at some point though, because it is a major pain point for new players and the like.

And how about not talking from the names of new players? I'm a new player and i played the game mainly because of it's combat, and what makes it fun.
I find it challenging and something to look to improve on.
I don't want to play skilless game with boring combat, where my skills as a player are not taken into account.

And dare to explain why you hate LA weaving + the old 10sec system ?
And still waiting to answer the guy that wanted to show him prove with stats about your claims. You very conveniently miss that post.

Amen friend. You got it. Work hard and improve don't expect everyone else to settle for less so you feel comfortable. Try and learn something new. Yeah. We shouldn't even need to be havenening this discussion.

TaSheen · July 2022

LordDragonMara wrote: »

And how about not talking from the names of new players? I'm a new player and i played the game mainly because of it's combat, and what makes it fun.
I find it challenging and something to look to improve on.
I don't want to play skilless game with boring combat, where my skills as a player are not taken into account.

And dare to explain why you hate LA weaving + the old 10sec system ?
And still waiting to answer the guy that wanted to show him prove with stats about your claims. You very conveniently miss that post.

I don't hate weaving. But it's pretty hard to do reliably with 999+ ping. And 70+ year old reflexes.

Arato · July 2022

The real casualties of update 35 are heavy attack builds, not weaving, which was for lower APM players.
Ground based DoT's aren't going to be worth using anymore and heavy attacks won't be really anything but a sustain option because every second you spend heavy attacking you're not using skills or weaving so it's a huge dps loss.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 2022

Arato wrote: »

The real casualties of update 35 are heavy attack builds, not weaving, which was for lower APM players.
Ground based DoT's aren't going to be worth using anymore and heavy attacks won't be really anything but a sustain option because every second you spend heavy attacking you're not using skills or weaving so it's a huge dps loss.

Not to mention the 40% nerf to healing. That's really going to hurt (literally).

merpins · July 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qddLz5-PJmg

Mr_Stach · July 2022

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qddLz5-PJmg

You bring up a great point

Toxic positivity involves dismissing negative emotions and responding to distress with false reassurances rather than empathy.

While it's especially harmful in real life situations and I typically talk with people about this from a psychology standpoint outside of video games we experience it here in Gaming communities a lot. We have white knights that defend everything that that they are passionate about. On the other hand we have people who are equally passionate and want the best for the game but are not content with the Status Quo format placed in front of them.

While it's not wrong to defend the things you care about, it's important not to let yourself be blind to the shortcomings that need to be improved.

And on the other hand it's important to push the developers to improve the game to make improvements via feedback, as long as the feedback is Constructive.

Once we enter the Toxic threshold, Ears turn off. No one has valid points and everyone starts yelling and jabbing at each other, soon enough most of the conversation is full of [Snip] and [Edited for Baiting].

That being said U35 is bad for the general player, your mileage may vary of course, but I honestly think if it goes live as is it will be a disaster, and not for the high-end players, they'll probably be fine, they make do, but for the regular mid tier player, you're about to have a hard time.