Stop the outrage: U35 combat changes are good*

omnidoh · July 2022

All this rage, when really there are only a few simple questions.

Can everyone complete all normal Solo-Content?
Can everyone complete all normal Group-Content?

If the answers to both are "Yes", then the game is fine.
If not, then ZOS will and should adjust accordingly, if they want to continue to profit.
It's that simple.
Veteran-Anything is optional.

BretonMage · July 2022

Faulgor wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.

So? Then nerf those bloody sets.

For the average player outside of coordinated vet trial groups, this "power creep" is a complete myth.
In fact, it's the very opposite, as I tried to lay out here.

Since Wrathstone, my DPS has dropped from 50k over 44k to currently 37k on live. This is not due to my inability to weave or keep up with DOTs in my rotations, it's because ZOS implements blanket nerfs to combat coordinated, high buff uptime DPS from trial groups, only to then widen the gap again by adding new OP sets for said groups.

They are their own worst enemy. They nerf everyone, buff the top, and then wonder why the gap is widening. But better nerf everyone again to reign in that nasty power creep!

Exactly. This is the elephant in the room no one's talking about. It must be easier pointing fingers at everyone else rather than that shiny set that top players love, and that ZOS loves putting out.

Crimsonwolf666 · July 2022

lordspyder wrote: »

I am disabled and have hand mobility issues. My DPS went from 30k to 15k. I'm now going to be locked into only doing overland content now. But I'm glad you think these changes are good. I hate them.

Agreed disable players like you and me, who already try very hard to parse and weave to even keep up, but never will, have it rough...will we even be able to do Overland content solo? How bad will disable players, those with various arthritis, bone damage, nerve and neurological damage/issues will be able to still play without needing help with EVERYTHING besides crafting. I hope it isn't that extreme, but I know disable players aren't really taken into consideration, if they are at all.

renne · July 2022

omnidoh wrote: »

All this rage, when really there are only a few simple questions.
Can everyone complete all normal Solo-Content?

Can everyone complete all normal Group-Content?

If the answers to both are "Yes", then the game is fine.
If not, then ZOS will and should adjust accordingly, if they want to continue to profit.
It's that simple.
Veteran-Anything is optional.

Then why even have vet content in the game if according to you it's optional and according to you it doesn't then matter if no one can clear it?

ALL content in the game should be clearable. If not, the game is NOT fine.

Not to mention the reason for these changes is allegedly to make it easier for average players to break into the content you have personally deemed unnecessary, which is clearly not the case with what these changes have done on the PTS.

huskandhunger · July 2022

I'm very excited about theses changes coming into update 35.

Power Creep has been a huge issue for a long time in all areas of the game, I feel these are great steps in the right direction.

kingsirdrmr · July 2022

Sounds like someone's mad they can't meet the DPS check for raids.

In all seriousness, though, it seems some players always get upset when others can do better than them with absolute mastery or being a sweat. Gatekeeping is unacceptable, but wanting everyone to come down to your level rather than trying to reach theirs (or admitting you can't/won't take the time to reach theirs for whatever reason; Absolutely nothing wrong with being casual or unwilling to be sweaty) is awfully petty. It also reinforces the false narrative that TES players and casuals are ruining the game.

Jazraena · July 2022

huskandhunger wrote: »

I'm very excited about theses changes coming into update 35. Power Creep has been a huge issue for a long time in all areas of the game, I feel these are great steps in the right direction.

Mate, they're not reducing power creep.

Their mission statement is okay. Their actual approach and math fails to deliver towards that mission, however.

siddique · July 2022

huskandhunger wrote: »

I'm very excited about theses changes coming into update 35. Power Creep has been a huge issue for a long time in all areas of the game, I feel these are great steps in the right direction.

Incorrect. 😆 good luck trying to finish any of the recent harder content without that power creep. Nothing helped mid tier and casual players more than power creep. That is exactly what allowed most people to clear their first trifecta/hardmode. And now, that has become impossible. All this, under the lies of "making content more accessible."

So what if 0.1% of the population can clear vcrhm in under 3 minutes? Theyll still clear it, maybe not in under 3, but under 5? But most others wont.

So what if the world record for vkahm is faster than most new groups kill Falgravn in? Thats the world record. Lots of hours of practice, optimization and patience went into that. But without power creep, forget about clearing that hardmode, let alone getting the trifecta. Im not even going to talk about vrg or vdsrhms.

But hear this, power creep HELPS midtier/casuals by making content "more accessible."

starkerealm · July 2022

siddique wrote: »

So what if 0.1% of the population can clear vcrhm in under 3 minutes? Theyll still clear it, maybe not in under 3, but under 5? But most others wont.

I'm figuring, under six. But, yeah, that's the point. The people at the very top (who stuck around and tested) are already back to where they were last year. Everyone else gets to watch the content they were doing and enjoying slip out of their hands unless they're willing to grind out new premium content, and spend the money for High Isle to have the privilege of getting back to where they were. Also, for some players it's just not possible to recover those losses.

siddique · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

So what if 0.1% of the population can clear vcrhm in under 3 minutes? Theyll still clear it, maybe not in under 3, but under 5? But most others wont.

I'm figuring, under six. But, yeah, that's the point. The people at the very top (who stuck around and tested) are already back to where they were last year. Everyone else gets to watch the content they were doing and enjoying slip out of their hands unless they're willing to grind out new premium content, and spend the money for High Isle to have the privilege of getting back to where they were. Also, for some players it's just not possible to recover those losses.

Yep, you seen the vkahm they did on pts?
Only 42 deaths on falgravn fight which lasted over 16 minutes. 😄

Edit: but hey, "more accessible." And you can see the "action happening on screen." Which is your team mates falling like flies.

renne · July 2022

siddique wrote: »

So what if 0.1% of the population can clear vcrhm in under 3 minutes? Theyll still clear it, maybe not in under 3, but under 5? But most others wont.

I think 0.1% is an incredibly high guess on the number of players in the game that can do it, I would guess it's significantly less than that. And this is them nerfing everyone for the sake of a small number of people.

The top end DPS needed to be reined in, but not at the expense of literally everyone else playing the game as well.

siddique · July 2022

renne wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

So what if 0.1% of the population can clear vcrhm in under 3 minutes? Theyll still clear it, maybe not in under 3, but under 5? But most others wont.

I think 0.1% is an incredibly high guess on the number of players in the game that can do it, I would guess it's significantly less than that. And this is them nerfing everyone for the sake of a small number of people.

The top end DPS needed to be reined in, but not at the expense of literally everyone else playing the game as well.

I mean, I'm sure I was only driving a point of an extremely small number of people.

starkerealm · July 2022

renne wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

So what if 0.1% of the population can clear vcrhm in under 3 minutes? Theyll still clear it, maybe not in under 3, but under 5? But most others wont.

I think 0.1% is an incredibly high guess on the number of players in the game that can do it, I would guess it's significantly less than that. And this is them nerfing everyone for the sake of a small number of people.

The top end DPS needed to be reined in, but not at the expense of literally everyone else playing the game as well.

Yeah, if we're getting into statistics, it is extremely generous. Figure that the remaining high end DPS is under 300 players world wide, out of that however-many million number Rich likes throwing around.

siddique · July 2022

No matter what absurd change they bring, there will always be exceptional players. It comes with practice, patience, and sometimes a natural ability that you cannot deny.

Cap the damage at 10k. Watch the top tier hit 10k and the casuals barely scraping by. This whole argument of bridging the gap by doing weird nonsense that shows a complete lack of understanding of their own game is flawed.

Fortunately, they've been exposed pretty blatantly this patch. Everyone saw through it. Those who didnt, will see it in 6 weeks. I am just sad because i loved eso for its combat. Now I have zero interest in sitting there whipping for 98% of the fight. I'd rather watch paint dry.

xPoisin · July 2022

I love to read all these comments quoting all the youtube meta stars….
I play this game since BETA (very looong time)… I still did not finish all the content, I do not have the META gear, I do no do the 100K+ DPS….And I do not want to do it, cause I do not have to be the META follower, I do not need to do 100K+ DPS…
All the parses done with full equipped chars on PTS are just jokes… Except maybe 5% of players who has that gear ? Why is noone showing the difference in DPS with some crafted gear in purple quality, without mythic items and all the TOP TIER STUFF ???
You will see a huuuge difference in DPS, for me it is over 50% decrease against my current setup and playstyle… To be exact I can do 75-90K DPS on live, but on PTS I am not able to hit above 50K… In reality (notparsing the dummy) I can do 40K consistent DPS in any content ( mostly running solo so I do need to heal my self sometimes), but after testing on PTS I found 30K is unreachable for me (28K was the best )… This makes me feel really bad for easy overland content, cause fights that ends in 2 GCDs now, lasts for 5-6 GCDs on PTS… Booooring and too long….

BUT, I will probably stop playin this game after thiss patch comes live unchanged…
BECAUSE :
- as a midtier player I can do vet dungs, but I do not cause I do not have to
- as a midtier player I probably am able to do normal trials (maybe also vet) but without HM and not even dreaming about trifectas, but I do not, cause I do not need the gear and after first two runs I found it booring (headless running around to farm gear is not my playstyle)
- after the patch I will be able to do normal dungs, but not the overland content solo

WHY ?
I have stopped playin my magplar because I found boring that spamming sweeps is the only thing I need to do…
So I switched to MagDK (3 years ago) and found that dynamic playstyle more interesting, even with less DPS. This changed in last year and I do really enjoy Magplar now..
With the new Oakensoul ( I have farmed only 2 mythics items - gaze of sithis and oaken) I found the overland content and normal/vet dungs really fun for soloing on all my chars, even on Magplar…
Even started PvP quests in NoCP because I can outplay some fights (I am still a noob in PvP but can survive NBs sneaking and haunting new players)…

After the changes comming with this patch I can agree that all the fun will be gone, all fights will be long and borring cause of one button spamming builds…

SO PLEASE do not change the game with so massive changes…
If people hate the Oaken ring in PvP just turn it off for PvP…
You want to stop oneshot heavy attack builds, then change the sets and some skills, do not ruin the whole game cause of that…

This should be all for now, thanks for the time you spent reading my comment 😉

Parasaurolophus · July 2022

@xPoisin Having a good gear in this game is not a problem, especially if you are not interested in the most difficult content and triple achievements. You can get a non-perfect gear in normal trials. Purple sharpeners are not expensive. Unless it is desirable to have gold weapons, but this is also quite cheap. So the gir problem is clearly inflated.

imno007b14_ESO · July 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYtHS5bS6ec

Tannus15 · July 2022

They are nerfing individuals because groups are too strong.
it's a terrible strategy

The "power creep" everyone is talking about is from the buffs and debuffs they have added that a full group can provide. Because they got carried away adding them, they are now nerfing individual players instead of toning down the sets they added.

on a 21m parse i went from 114k to 102k, but on 3m dummy solo parse i've gone from 56k to 45k.

vMA took me 10 minutes longer on PTS compared to live, 44 minutes instead of 34. These changes are weirdly thought out and terrible in general. they would be better off removing major vulnerability, minor brittle, minor courage etc, THE ACTUAL POWER CREEP instead of leaving it all in the game and NERFING OUR CHARACTERS.

OsUfi · July 2022

From someone who is hardcore against any increase in difficulty for overland content as I like questing, this update is... Awful...

Long DoTs with single click spammables between makes an already extra-ordinarily easy questing game even more easy. Even on the story bosses you don't need to engage with the combat. Delve bosses too. You can facetank almost anything on casual, non-optimized builds.

Man, that's a good way of shortening the games lifespan to me. Not so much burnout, but boredom-out.

Edit: Also salty as heck they're making Polar Winds from an interesting damage+heal spell into another generic heal. Egh.

Korsario · July 2022

[snip] When you let streamers dictate your game cotnent you have a problem.

[edited for baiting]

PurpleScroll · July 2022

Disabled player here (widespread arthritis). I top out at about 35k DPS on a staminaDK, my main. I lose upwards of 40% of my damage with this patch, probably 30-35% if I adjust things. My build is designed for the overland content I take part in, and my build lets me play comfortably on a gamepad. Spamming a single skill is only going to cause my joints to ache from little use. I have played this game for 6 years and put in many thousands of hours because it lets me escape the real world of dealing with health problems - I can imagine that I'm a strong Khajiit who can fight practically anything, where I struggle to do even basic exercise in the real world. I don't want my game to get harder when ZoS thinks they're helping me, when they really are not. I don't think I'd quit the game but I would certainly look into playing another MMO more than ESO, and putting less money into ESO too, if these changes are going to be pushed through.

siddique · July 2022

Korsario wrote: »

[snip] When you let streamers dictate your game cotnent you have a problem.

Incorrect.

[edited to remove quote]

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Streamers are just players. It is not really some thing special. But if they are famouse a lot of players try to copy them.

Copy is always worse than an original, so we get a lot of bad playing players.

If they learned how to do thingth it only shows that any one can do it.

Some streamers even work like degradation to masses. Have a lot of such examples.

So i just watch streamers for fun. Players who think that they see anything other than that just lose own progress.

Some times I watch some details i need, but the streamers i like the most - make some fun content. Unfortunatly some of them do not stream teso anymore.

For information - databases are more helpfull.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

omnidoh wrote: »

All this rage, when really there are only a few simple questions.
Can everyone complete all normal Solo-Content?

Can everyone complete all normal Group-Content?

If the answers to both are "Yes", then the game is fine.
If not, then ZOS will and should adjust accordingly, if they want to continue to profit.
It's that simple.
Veteran-Anything is optional.

Normal content is not some thing a lot of players are interested. A lot of players can solo a lot of vet group content and normal content.

But some HMs have time limits and achivments have some time limits.

If it is imossible to pass you can not get reward. That some one already get, before DPS was nerfed.

And reward is some thing you want )

DPS checks for some HM trials are about 30-35k.

If you have DPS check 100 k and all players max DPS becomes 90k and + to all this you have not get enough good playing players you will not just pass.

" You will nooot paaaas "

SgtSilock · July 2022

Have they nerfed the ring, to the point that it's not worth using anymore?

Lady_Galadhiel · July 2022

omnidoh wrote: »

All this rage, when really there are only a few simple questions.
Can everyone complete all normal Solo-Content?

Can everyone complete all normal Group-Content?

If the answers to both are "Yes", then the game is fine.
If not, then ZOS will and should adjust accordingly, if they want to continue to profit.
It's that simple.
Veteran-Anything is optional.

It is not as simple as that no.

TirantLoBlanch · July 2022

All the arguments againts U35 have been brilliantly explained by Code, Eigh p , skynny cheeks, Nefas, Alcast, et alia.

Now i will say something more

In my guild some players have done a MASSIVE amount of work to prepare the coming of spanish language.
We have done guides, tutorials, videos teaching theorycrafting...Webs

All this in a record time to be able to integrate the spanish speaker players who came last month

After 22 august this is all gone.

Why the *** they do this change a month after a new langue and a new comunity of players has emerged.
They complain about people dont apreciating their job...
Not strange if we see how they respect OUR JOB

Vex.1337 · July 2022

I do agree with the original post, having less DPS means you get to see more of the boss mechanics which is a good thing because that's what trials should be about, coordinate together and work as a team to kill the boss. Coordinating everyone who spends 10 hrs a day perfecting their weaving and pull 120k dps in order to kill the boss in 2 mins isn't fun imo. Most of a player gameplay should happen inside the raid instance, not in front of a training dummy.

A boss fight especially the last one of the trial should last at least 10 minutes, not go in there with 120k dps and obliterate it in a couple of minutes.

TirantLoBlanch · July 2022

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I do agree with the original post, having less DPS means you get to see more of the boss mechanics which is a good thing because that's what trials should be about, coordinate together and work as a team to kill the boss. Coordinating everyone who spends 10 hrs a day perfecting their weaving and pull 120k dps in order to kill the boss in 2 mins isn't fun imo. Most of a player gameplay should happen inside the raid instance, not in front of a training dummy.

A boss fight especially the last one of the trial should last at least 10 minutes, not go in there with 120k dps and obliterate it in a couple of minutes.

You oversimplify the changes, this not only lower dps. This makes some content almost undoable.

try a no death run when damaege ticks every second and healing every 2 seconds--- And tell me the difference.

And this is only ONE of the issues

vivisectvib16_ESO · July 2022

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first.

...or how about not telling people how to feel about fundamental changes to a game that they've dedicated hundreds of hours to?