Stop the outrage: U35 combat changes are good*

xgoku1

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.

The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+, which leads to older content becoming an absolute joke. See: vAS in 2 minutes 33 seconds - vCR in 2 minutes 49 seconds

Weaving isn't going anywhere. In fact, they just gave us two new animations for channeled spam abilities (Templar Jabs and DW Flurry) for better weaving feel. It's simply illogical to claim that ZOS is coming to take your animation canceling away.

The new LA damage still contributes roughly 8k damage to your parse, down from 11-15k in U34 (Roughly a 2-4% reduction in DPS contribution). It is still needed for optimal DPS, while reducing the DPS contribution is good for low APM players. In effect, the DPS penalty is less severe if you miss weaves, which is always good for players trying to learn weaving.

The biggest complaint from testing is that players find the 20 second DoT cooldown playstyle quite boring in comparison to 7-8 seconds, because ESO only has 10 skill slots. Here are some counter-points:

1. A real PvE combat situation is a lot more dynamic requiring you to react to enemy AoEs, attacks etc. Reducing the busy upkeep of DoTs reduces the stress of responding to fight situations and possibly can lead to better team co-ordination.
2. Actual PvE bosses are hardly stationary, and DPS occurs in "phases". DoTs doing damage over a long duration for the same cost means that the bulk of damage comes from spammables/set effects etc. This means higher damage in short bursts, which aligns with how DPS phases are designed.
3. Better sustain since the DoT costs remain unchanged
4. Less backbar swaps needed (bar swapping is a big complaint for many players - Oakensoul's popularity proved that)

U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

Here are some parses off the Internet:
StamCro 116k

MagSorc 103k

MagBlade 101k, literally spamming Surprise Attack

*Numbers aren't final in Week 1. Hopefully they consider feedback. I think it's a good start though.

LeBrenn

Well, if you say so...

fizl101

Please also bear in mind, that the dot damage is also reduced unless that enemy can stand still in it for the entire duration, and also many skills for many different classes etc have also taken a significant hit.

it isn't just about light attacks doing less damage and dots taking a long time before refreshing, there is alot more to it. Those people at the very top will still be at the very top, and still be able to clear stuff with relative ease, some of the very hard stuff like plaguebreaker however may not be achievable (I don't know, I'm a progger, but not at that level yet!). Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard. Things they may have been able to clear with effort, or were progging towards, will now be out of reach as their damage drops by 10-20%.

We saw our first swashbuckler supreme today - its all over social media. If this patch goes ahead as is, without adjustments to those encounters, will we see another? Or another planesbreaker.

Its a big impact across the board for everyone, and tbh I don't think the light attack nerfs are really in the top half of most peoples concerns

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

5. The world first guild to get vDreadsailReef trifecta all quit because it will no longer be POSSIBLE to do it. Its not a case of adapt and do it slower but IT WONT EVEN BE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE anymore.

6. Noone will do last boss vRockgrove trifecta/hm because it wont be possible. At all.

7. Everyone does less dps including the casuals. Somehow they are convinced this is only a top dps nerf.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

jecks33

I'm glad that you like U35 combat changes

Arthtur

Using spammable 20 times in a row is just boring for me. Doesnt matter how many + there is. Even if my dps would double, the fact the fun is gone, doesnt change.

I dont care about damage nerfs. The only reason im against them is because how bad they affect weaker players and prog groups.

And not even 1 of those points affects me. Also right, Oakensoul. if somebody want to reduce "stress" he can use it. Using 2 DoTs every 15s shouldnt be hard + no bar swapping. AND it wouldnt affect others.

Mr_Stach

I'm really glad you can still do stuff good I really am.

Weaving issues and Light/Heavy Attack Stuff are a non issue.

DoT Duration stuff is Annoying and the Damage being nerfed by roughly 33% is bad and all that, whatever.

They Killed Advanced Species on Warden. That made all the Nerfs worse. That's my big issue they took a passive that all wardens ran that gave you between 6-12% damage bonus, that's now pen and now the 33% nerf to AoE is 6-12% worse. The 8% nerf to Shalks is 6-12% worse.

Warden is in the Dumpster. Also Shalks timing is atrocious, but I'm concerned about the the damage just tanking because Zos took away Warden's main Damage Passive.

Yeah it's dramatic, but it's what I play so it's annoying. Will we survive, of course. But it's Patches like these that just make people quit, they need to stop reinventing the wheel.

Necrotech_Master

in what world are you living in that dots ticking every 2 sec is a good change? lol

that is VERY slow, not to mention many bosses move around a lot, so any kind of ground dot is going to be utterly useless outside of maybe the maelstrom bow with volley

xgoku1

fizl101 wrote: »

Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.

How so? Have you tested this?

This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing

Didgerion

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.
U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

I can not agree more that DPS should be tuned down a bit. But that's not the way you do it.
They should have addressed only weaving this patch. It would have been a safe patch that would affected all builds equally. (minus DK's 30k+ heavy attack builds)

What they came up with is a scramble. It affects all the builds differently. And that's a big problem because they spent many many hours to balance those builds and now all the balance work will need to be started over. PTS will reveal only the tip of the iceberg of the unbalance.

Nord_Raseri

xgoku1 wrote: »

The new LA damage still contributes roughly 8k damage to your parse, down from 11-15k in U34 (Roughly a 2-4% reduction in DPS contribution).

Down from 30k for me, which is 37% of my dps(80k) on live. That's a 73% nerf to LAs alone for me. Not counting the nerfs to everything else. "U35 combat changes are good"? Slice it any way you like, that's a resounding Nope from me.

Holycannoli

The endgame community has been asking for the average and casual player to be nerfed out of vet and endgame content?

Good to know.

xgoku1

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

5. The world first guild to get vDreadsailReef trifecta all quit because it will no longer be POSSIBLE to do it. Its not a case of adapt and do it slower but IT WONT EVEN BE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE anymore.

6. Noone will do last boss vRockgrove trifecta/hm because it wont be possible. At all.

7. Everyone does less dps including the casuals. Somehow they are convinced this is only a top dps nerf.

[snip]

Content can be adjusted post U35 to new DPS standards. vRG HM etc. with the insane DPS checks are clearly designed with DPS powercreep in mind, that was the year they dropped the OP Kilt.

ZOS even said so in the Preview Post, that they are reducing the DPS delta to design combat content better. Having a sensible DPS range is a big part of that IMO.

[edited to remove quote]

lordspyder

I am disabled and have hand mobility issues. My DPS went from 30k to 15k. I'm now going to be locked into only doing overland content now. But I'm glad you think these changes are good. I hate them.

FantasticFreddie

Didgerion wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.
U35 parses can still hit 100k (even if you reduce ~12% from the new Minor Courage and Major Slayer buffs to dummy).

I can not agree more that DPS should be tuned down a bit. But that's not the way you do it.
They should have addressed only weaving this patch. It would have been a safe patch that would affected all builds equally. (minus DK's 30k+ heavy attack builds)

What they came up with is a scramble. It affects all the builds differently. And that's a big problem because they spent many many hours to balance those builds and now all the balance work will need to be started over. PTS will reveal only the tip of the iceberg of the unbalance.

Dps should NOT be tuned down. The ceiling should not be lowered.
Both trials zos released within the last year REQUIRE the extremely high damage to complete at the highest difficulty, and the extremely LOW numbers lf completion reflect this

fizl101

xgoku1 wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.

How so? Have you tested this?

This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing

Yes. I play on console but have a pc, so have played on pts too. when you are pushing to hit say 70-80k (where I am talking for middle level players here, those who are getting into vet trials etc), and then lose 20% of your damage these players are now at a level where a vet trial like sunspire is going to be a struggle to learn and get through in a prog group. A DOT that previously may have given 15k over 10 seconds (made up numbers for the example) will now give 16k over 20 seconds if the enemy sits there for the entire time, the player doesn't refresh early and so on. One of the justifications is that they didn't want people watching their timers, in fact in the several hours of parsing and playing I have done to try and salvage how my main character plays, I can tell you that I had to watch those timers alot more to not nerf myself

Deltia is not a mid level player, neither is Nefas and the other content streamers of a similar vein who design builds so I amnot sure that is really a comparison

xgoku1

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

Okay? It's called ceiling for a reason. The average player's DPS is between floor and ceiling.

In U35, with more forgiving LA weaving and less stress DoT upkeep, the average players' DPS goes up. That's the idea.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

They Killed Advanced Species on Warden. That made all the Nerfs worse. That's my big issue they took a passive that all wardens ran that gave you between 6-12% damage bonus, that's now pen and now the 33% nerf to AoE is 6-12% worse. The 8% nerf to Shalks is 6-12% worse.

Class changes and the fine print of it are not final. It's just Week 1, by the time it reaches Live I think it will be a lot better balanced.

I personally hate the hybrid whip on DK. It's like they have a personal vendetta against stamina whip

lordspyder

fizl101 wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.

How so? Have you tested this?

This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing

Yes. I play on console but have a pc, so have played on pts too. when you are pushing to hit say 70-80k (where I am talking for middle level players here, those who are getting into vet trials etc), and then lose 20% of your damage these players are now at a level where a vet trial like sunspire is going to be a struggle to learn and get through in a prog group. A DOT that previously may have given 15k over 10 seconds (made up numbers for the example) will now give 16k over 20 seconds if the enemy sits there for the entire time, the player doesn't refresh early and so on. One of the justifications is that they didn't want people watching their timers, in fact in the several hours of parsing and playing I have done to try and salvage how my main character plays, I can tell you that I had to watch those timers alot more to not nerf myself

Deltia is not a mid level player, neither is Nefas and the other content streamers of a similar vein who design builds so I amnot sure that is really a comparison

OMG I usually like Deltia but I was so angry when he tried to pass himself off as a "mid-level player" parsing at almost 100k [snip] dude.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Vaoh

Not going to reiterate for you what everyone here has already said about U35.

I’ll just say that in its current state, if U35 goes Live, a lot of players will lose interest in ESO and be replaced by no one.

Arthtur

xgoku1 wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.

How so? Have you tested this?

This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing

Im sorry but he made a big mistake. He forgot to tell u that dummy was buffed on PTS (just check comments...). If he did 80k on PTS then thats around 70k on live. Templar wasnt hitt that bad as Sorc/Warden. NB is a class that got buffs so yeah xD
Im sorry but DPS nerfs are from at least 10% to even 50% in some cases. If somebody shows u a parse from PTS then remove 10% of DPS as thats the minimal diffrence between Live and PTS dummy.

FantasticFreddie

xgoku1 wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

Okay? It's called ceiling for a reason. The average player's DPS is between floor and ceiling.

In U35, with more forgiving LA weaving and less stress DoT upkeep, the average players' DPS goes up. That's the idea.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

They Killed Advanced Species on Warden. That made all the Nerfs worse. That's my big issue they took a passive that all wardens ran that gave you between 6-12% damage bonus, that's now pen and now the 33% nerf to AoE is 6-12% worse. The 8% nerf to Shalks is 6-12% worse.

Class changes and the fine print of it are not final. It's just Week 1, by the time it reaches Live I think it will be a lot better balanced.

I personally hate the hybrid whip on DK. It's like they have a personal vendetta against stamina whip

I don't know who the average player is, but no, no one's damage will go up except an extremely niche group of dummy parses.
I'm sure there are people out there never light attack and struggle to maintain a DoT rotation. So the people who never light attack and previously had an issue with their dots falling off, should now theoretically see a slight increase on dummy parses and nothing else. Because very few enemies in this game are kind enough to sit still and allow you to whack them for 20+seconds

Soarora

If people want to clear trials in 3 minutes, fine. Most people can’t. I see a lot of focus on these forum threads towards the top parsers still being able to hit 100k by changing their skills and sets and using that as a measure of this being fine. It’s not fine. This update narrows the options for good dps builds even more to the point of if you want to do dps, you practically have to choose a meta setup (which now requires more weaving than live’s meta!). HA builds, from what I’ve heard, are reduced to ashes. My own builds were doing fine (~83k live) despite being themed (frostbite/whorl brittleden, dro’zakar/pillar “bleedblade”). Now they’re barely above the minimum for vet trials depending on who you ask (they both did ~73k) WITH the dummy buffed AND I literally cannot update them to do more damage without completely destroying what made them unique. Even then, I’m lucky only getting nerfed 10k, some others lost more. This update hurts almost everyone.

Necrotech_Master

xgoku1 wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+

The average player comes nowhere close to that.

Okay? It's called ceiling for a reason. The average player's DPS is between floor and ceiling.

In U35, with more forgiving LA weaving and less stress DoT upkeep, the average players' DPS goes up. That's the idea.

except light/heavy attacks and dot dmg is getting flat nerfed, from what ive been seeing a top tier end gamer who modified their build loses like 10-15% dmg, a mid to low tier player loses 40-50% of their dmg

so how is this helping an average dps player? it doesnt

if they only added longer timers without changing tick rate, dmg per tick on the DoTs then yes it might have helped the average player

Four_Fingers

Deltia didn't sound calm to me. lol

xgoku1

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

in what world are you living in that dots ticking every 2 sec is a good change? lol

that is VERY slow, not to mention many bosses move around a lot, so any kind of ground dot is going to be utterly useless outside of maybe the maelstrom bow with volley

Single target DoTs already tick every 2 seconds. For mobile fights, you can switch to sticky DoTs instead.

lordspyder wrote: »

I am disabled and have hand mobility issues. My DPS went from 30k to 15k. I'm now going to be locked into only doing overland content now. But I'm glad you think these changes are good. I hate them.

On what class? Can you please post your parse?

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

The new LA damage still contributes roughly 8k damage to your parse, down from 11-15k in U34 (Roughly a 2-4% reduction in DPS contribution).

Down from 30k for me, which is 37% of my dps(80k) on live. That's a 73% nerf to LAs alone for me. Not counting the nerfs to everything else. "U35 combat changes are good"? Slice it any way you like, that's a resounding Nope from me.

37% of your DPS coming from LAs sounds like a non-meta thing, I was speaking from High Isle parses I saw. What build did you use?

Holycannoli

xgoku1 wrote: »

Content can be adjusted post U35 to new DPS standards. vRG HM etc. with the insane DPS checks are clearly designed with DPS powercreep in mind, that was the year they dropped the OP Kilt.

ZOS even said so in the Preview Post, that they are reducing the DPS delta to design combat content better. Having a sensible DPS range is a big part of that IMO.

So if they're going to adjust all content to fit this patch, why change anything at all? Why nerf damage and then content so that the damage nerf doesn't affect gameplay? That's an awful lot of work that can be avoided by simply not going forward with the combat changes at all.

I'm telling you right now they're not intending to go back and change all this game's content because of this patch. Their intent is something else and they're not saying. Oh sure they'll give vague reasons like 'accessibility" but we all know that's nonsense. I mean how do you improve accessibility by nerfing damage? Explain how that works lol.

Pevey

xgoku1 wrote: »

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing while being bored to tears and getting repetitive stress syndrome in his spammable finger.

Fixed it for you.


EDIT:

I also want to point out that 80k on the new pts dummy, if normalized, is LESS THAN THE 35k ON THE 3m/6m DUMMY THAT USED TO BE REQUIRED FOR VMOL YEARS AGO.

Ponder that. And ponder how this will improve accessibility to vet content.

.

tomfant

No, combat changes are not good. In fact, they are really terrible. It hurts the average Joe way more that the score pushers.

FantasticFreddie

Pevey wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing while being bored to tears and getting repetitive stress syndrome in his spammable finger.

Fixed it for you.


EDIT:

I also want to point out that 80k on the new pts dummy, if normalized, is LESS THAN THE 35k ON THE 3m/6m DUMMY THAT USED TO BE REQUIRED FOR VMOL YEARS AGO.

Ponder that. And ponder how this will improve accessibility to vet content.

.

I'm parsing juuuuust under 100k on live.
I was dpsing an vDSR last week, with a group all right around the same skill level.
We WIPED to a dps check on last boss-- we failed the bridge mechanic.

xgoku1

Vaoh wrote: »

Not going to reiterate for you what everyone here has already said about U35.

I’ll just say that in its current state, if U35 goes Live, a lot of players will lose interest in ESO and be replaced by no one.

I highly doubt anyone threatening to leave ESO will actually leave. Just saying, threatening to quit MMOs is as old as MMOs themselves.

I don't see how you can claim that ESO won't get new players but ok

fizl101 wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.

How so? Have you tested this?

This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing

A DOT that previously may have given 15k over 10 seconds (made up numbers for the example) will now give 16k over 20 seconds if the enemy sits there for the entire time, the player doesn't refresh early and so on.

They buffed DoTs by 50%, so in your example, they would give 22.5k damage over 20s, roughly a 33% decrease in DoT DPS. But that is offset by the very low sustain costs, which leads to more "active" damage from spammables

Deltia isn't a mid level player, that's not the point. U35 parses are spammable heavy, which is kinda easier for everyone trying to parse (just boring on the dummy, but dummies were never supposed to be like the real thing)

Arthtur wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.

How so? Have you tested this?

This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?

Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing

Im sorry but he made a big mistake. He forgot to tell u that dummy was buffed on PTS (just check comments...). If he did 80k on PTS then thats around 70k on live. Templar wasnt hitt that bad as Sorc/Warden. NB is a class that got buffs so yeah xD
Im sorry but DPS nerfs are from at least 10% to even 50% in some cases. If somebody shows u a parse from PTS then remove 10% of DPS as thats the minimal diffrence between Live and PTS dummy.

I addressed that in my post, ~12% damage comes from Minor Courage and Major Slayer, it's a buff that you will see in co-ordinated groups. What he was saying is that when compares apples to apples with U34 DPS parses, reduce U35 numbers by ~10%