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Stop the outrage: U35 combat changes are good*
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AngelicaDLynn✭✭✭Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »5. The world first guild to get vDreadsailReef trifecta all quit because it will no longer be POSSIBLE to do it. Its not a case of adapt and do it slower but IT WONT EVEN BE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE anymore.
6. Noone will do last boss vRockgrove trifecta/hm because it wont be possible. At all.
7. Everyone does less dps including the casuals. Somehow they are convinced this is only a top dps nerf.
[snip]
Content can be adjusted post U35 to new DPS standards. vRG HM etc. with the insane DPS checks are clearly designed with DPS powercreep in mind, that was the year they dropped the OP Kilt.
ZOS even said so in the Preview Post, that they are reducing the DPS delta to design combat content better. Having a sensible DPS range is a big part of that IMO.
They have NEVER adjusted content because of nerfs. Not one time period. Shoot we will be lucky if they don't nerf everything even more by the time the update hits. As of now I have canceled subs on two accounts. This is to the stage of ridiculous. [snip] No one wants changes every three months.
[edited for bashing & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2022 4:05PM10 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.
The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+, which leads to older content becoming an absolute joke. See: vAS in 2 minutes 33 seconds - vCR in 2 minutes 49 seconds
DPS nerfs should not be necessary. The only reason that DPS is so high is ZOS' fault to begin with. It is ZOS that keeps adding powerful new sets and new buffs. The players just utilize what gets added. It wouldn't need to be nerfed if the combat team didn't allow it to get here in the first place. Imagine you're on one of those teams that can clear vAS in 2 minutes and 30 seconds. After this update, what is there to do? You won't beat your best score because the damage is lower. So understandably, they just won't want to play.
See the issue? ZOS dug this hole for themselves. They shouldn't be nerfing the high end players because of their irresponsible additions to the game.
PC NA and Xbox NA15 -
xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »
to the bolded point in your first part: DoT heavy gameplay is getting downright significantly nerfed and does not change the fact you will need to use a spammable skill, why would anyone want to play a dot heavy build when their dmg is gonna be so awful?
I meant some people don't like ESO's combat because DoTs need to be re-applied so often, every 10 seconds. It's not really a damage potential thing, but about the micromanagementDragonnord wrote: »1 - Only the 1% of groups (maybe less) can complete vAS and vCR with those timings.
2 - Those are dummy numbers. Go do the same damage with 20-second DoTs on a moving target in dungeons and trials.
3 - There is no way you can complete vRG HM and vDSR HM with those numbers, also, again, with moving targets.
4 - The new hard modes were created for high damage, now damage is reduced 35k/40k. So, will the hard modes and rest of content be adjusted too? I can answer that for you: No.
1. Yes, and we talk about those 1% because its a point about DPS ceiling.
2. In U35 there is no real benefit to using ground AOEs since they also tick 2s now with same damage calc, why not just use sticky AoE for mobile fights?
You don't know that content won't be adjusted. Tweaking the obvious offenders vRG and vDSR isn't some impossible task for ZOS to do. Yeah, all content from the past 9 years can't be adjusted in the span of 4 weeks, but they can start with vRG and vDSR.2 -
GreatGildersleeve✭✭✭✭I understand ZoS is balancing on a spreadsheet these days and most of the discussions I’m seeing on the forums, including this thread, want hard numbers to compare. This misses the elephant in the room though that ZoS USED to be concerned about and that’s fun.
Do the changes feel fun?
I’m not on pts (console player) so can’t compare but I have a general ‘feeling’ that U35 is going to be bad… I only pvp now which might not have been hit as hard but I only magsorc so… maybe I retire? I don’t know… but it’s not looking good and that’s the important part. If it’s not fun anymore, why stay? Time will tell.3 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dragonlord573 wrote: »The average player is hitting between 30-60k. Someone on PTS who hits 60k got knocked down to 48k. It's going to effect the average player badly.
Okay, so this assumes that the ceiling remains the same though. A 12k drop in DPS is devastating if the max DPS stayed above 110-120k like now.
But people are saying the ceiling is now 80-90k, so it's a proportionate DPS drop. Trial groups will adapt with 80-90k as max DPS, and a lower "entry" DPS with the new U35 numbersNecrotech_Master wrote: »
competence cant change the fact that if they were using a heavy attack build for accessibility reasons, that it is going to do 50% less dmg next update, how does that improve their "average dps"?
Can't this be fixed by changing their build? Buffs to HA from things like Maelstrom backbar, Storm Master, the new Empower are still options. I'm yet to see any HA build for U35 so I can't really verify any numbers.
max dps from optimal builds and parsing is still around 100-110k (down from max potential of like 140k), but so few people even get that high
the highest ive ever seen on my combat metrics for my single target dps was 55k in a trial run and i never parse on a dummy (i solo WB or dungeons usually to test a build)
for your other point a fully spec into heavy attack build is still going to be significantly weaker
lightning staves and possibly resto were also nerfed, doing less dot ticks, ranged dmg is 10% weaker than melee
hack the minotaur has tested heavy attack builds on the PTS using the buffed trial dummy and can barely make it to 40k, but this is on a buffed trial dummy and likely the absolute maximum they can produce because the heavy attacks arent scaling to dmg so no matter your buffs its going to do the same dmg, that means its probably going to do 15k in normal content
reference: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611667/heavy-attack-build-lovers-we-want-better-for-you
the way ive always seen the game is if you can manage at least 30k dps in normal content, then you can do almost any content outside of scorepushing or trial trifectas, a fully specialized heavy attack build will be doing half of that and could probably barely do a normal maelstrom arena (which has a minimum of a 8-10k dps check on the ice stage)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities3 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Those who play more casually will still continue to play as is. People in the middle will be hit very hard.
How so? Have you tested this?
This doesn't even make sense on paper. In the current system, a so-called "average player" has to keep up DoTs every 7-8 seconds realistically. In the new system they have to do it half as much, over the course of the whole fight this means that the number of missed DoTs will be cut in half?
Feedback from content creators like Deltia say the opposite, where he got >80k DPS without stressing
Have you played the PTS? And if so where are your parses and encounter records.
Also, prove to me that you can clear hard mode content both latest dlc trial trifectas and dungeon trifectas on the PTS.
Until that is proved possible on the PTS I will continue to be upset.
Positive reinforcement is key for a game to thrive. You need to feel challenged and rewarded.
Negative reinforcement results in quiting.
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Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭[*] Actual PvE bosses are hardly stationary, and DPS occurs in "phases". DoTs doing damage over a long duration for the same cost means that the bulk of damage comes from spammables/set effects etc. This means higher damage in short bursts, which aligns with how DPS phases are designed.
I think this is a very good point.
I don't think you're really intended to be able to keep 100% uptime on your DoTs, specially ground AoEs. You can't do that in the current patch, and you can't do that in PTS either.
I think ZOS shifting the game more towards these bursts of damage, rather than "stand in one spot without moving for 10 minutes" has the potential to make the game far more dynamic and less repetitive."According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"1 -
xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭AngelicaDLynn wrote: »
They have NEVER adjusted content because of nerfs. Not one time period.
Yeah, but this is probably the biggest combat change they've every done. Pretty much changing the core combat design.
And the fact is, if they don't adjust content like vRG and vDSR it's just going to be impossible to complete, because those trials were designed keeping the OP powercreep sets of their years in the design decisions.
Also, damage was going up steadily, not down. There was no need to nerf older content.First things first. DPS nerfs are absolutely necessary in this game because the ceiling is ridiculous in 2022. It's something the endgame community has been asking for. Every year, ZOS adds new OP sets that worsen the power creep in this game.
The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+, which leads to older content becoming an absolute joke. See: vAS in 2 minutes 33 seconds - vCR in 2 minutes 49 seconds
DPS nerfs should not be necessary. The only reason that DPS is so high is ZOS' fault to begin with. It is ZOS that keeps adding powerful new sets and new buffs. The players just utilize what gets added. It wouldn't need to be nerfed if the combat team didn't allow it to get here in the first place. Imagine you're on one of those teams that can clear vAS in 2 minutes and 30 seconds. After this update, what is there to do? You won't beat your best score because the damage is lower. So understandably, they just won't want to play.
See the issue? ZOS dug this hole for themselves. They shouldn't be nerfing the high end players because of their irresponsible additions to the game.
I don't agree with this logic. I agree, ZOS let the powercreep happen because it was a cheap and easy way to sell the yearly Chapter. That doesn't mean they lost the right to realize they've messed up and fix the situation.
And what's the alternative? Just keep introducing more and more broken sets till the DPS goes to 200k or something?1 -
Jpk0012✭✭✭✭So everyone should be nerfed because top end players are parsing too high?
[snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2022 4:07PM19 -
Dawnblade✭✭✭✭✭So you hope they adjust content to accommodate the loss of damage across the board?
LOL
Hope is not a strategy.
Leaving to play other games until they get around to fixing the mess that will result from the patch on PTS is a strategy though, and one I plan to pursue.
Edited by Dawnblade on July 14, 2022 7:53PM15 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AngelicaDLynn wrote: »
They have NEVER adjusted content because of nerfs. Not one time period.
Yeah, but this is probably the biggest combat change they've every done. Pretty much changing the core combat design.
One Tamriel would like to have a word with you.And the fact is, if they don't adjust content like vRG and vDSR it's just going to be impossible to complete, because those trials were designed keeping the OP powercreep sets of their years in the design decisions.
Also, damage was going up steadily, not down. There was no need to nerf older content.
Classes that suffered severe nerfs in the past were simply left sub-optimal or non-viable for entire patch cycles.
And of course, with the release of One Tamriel, there were new difficulty spikes introduced that were left untouched for 3 and 6 months. Some (Bittergreen, for instance) remain to this day.10 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't agree with this logic. I agree, ZOS let the powercreep happen because it was a cheap and easy way to sell the yearly Chapter. That doesn't mean they lost the right to realize they've messed up and fix the situation.
And what's the alternative? Just keep introducing more and more broken sets till the DPS goes to 200k or something?
The alternative is to adjust the difficulty of older existing content to match up with how high current DPS can be. They would also have to adjust the maximum possible score to make up for the increased difficulty. Maybe this increased difficulty can be a "Master" difficulty. The Vet difficulty would just become a middle level difficulty. This is more work for sure, but it would fix the issue without nerfing the players or how they play the game. Of course, master mode would be out of reach for the majority of players, it would require them to work towards improving, but that's the purpose of high difficulty.
PC NA and Xbox NA3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I haven't seen any examples of actual combat content to compare with U34 Live, that's why I'm only talking about dummy parses.
Here you go. (Not my video.)
https://youtu.be/piMyKwCi1og
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xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭GreatGildersleeve wrote: »Do the changes feel fun?
I mean, fun is a subjective thing, but I think the new combat style will be great for doing content like Vateshran, Maelstrom, pretty much all endgame content where a lot of things are happening at the same time. I'm focusing less on timers, what bar I'm on, DoT upkeep, etc. and actually focusing on things happening in the arenaNecrotech_Master wrote: »
hack the minotaur has tested heavy attack builds on the PTS using the buffed trial dummy and can barely make it to 40k, but this is on a buffed trial dummy and likely the absolute maximum they can produce because the heavy attacks arent scaling to dmg so no matter your buffs its going to do the same dmg, that means its probably going to do 15k in normal content
Okay, I just saw his video where he's saying HA build is losing like 40% DPS in real content like overland WBs. That's not good because that is not raising the floor. It might change in coming weeks of PTSwolfie1.0. wrote: »
Until that is proved possible on the PTS I will continue to be upset.
So you're upset about the patch based on what? The lack of evidence?
I was just asking for proof because people saying mid-level players are going to lose DPS yet I've not seen any parses from players claiming to be mid-level. You make the claim, you need to support it with evidence. I've only posted top-end parses to show the high ceiling still possible.
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Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »
hack the minotaur has tested heavy attack builds on the PTS using the buffed trial dummy and can barely make it to 40k, but this is on a buffed trial dummy and likely the absolute maximum they can produce because the heavy attacks arent scaling to dmg so no matter your buffs its going to do the same dmg, that means its probably going to do 15k in normal content
Okay, I just saw his video where he's saying HA build is losing like 40% DPS in real content like overland WBs. That's not good because that is not raising the floor. It might change in coming weeks of PTS
this is what all the rebuttal posts have been trying to explain, the PTS changes are not hurting the top end dps as much as they are hurting the mid tier or lower players
thats not all of the reason of why there is outrage (gutting of classes being the other) but it is a major reasonplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities10 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was just asking for proof because people saying mid-level players are going to lose DPS yet I've not seen any parses from players claiming to be mid-level. You make the claim, you need to support it with evidence. I've only posted top-end parses to show the high ceiling still possible.
I already linked hack the Minotaurs video up above so here is a portion of what he wrote about it.
Found here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611340/u35-changes-are-much-worse-for-average-low-apm-players-vs-end-game-players
“I ran a quick comparison using a very popular build for less experienced players: Heavy Attack Mag Sorc.
Solo vs the Sable Knight WB in High Isle had the following results:
Update 34: Time to kill: 3m 10s
Update 35: Time to kill: 4m 24s
That's roughly 35-40% less overall damage on what is literally the EASIEST build to play in ESO. MUCH more damage lost compared to what end game players have posted recently (20-25%?). Video comparison is below.
What happened to preserving Heavy Attack builds? What happened to raising the floor? 1000's of players currently enjoying simple builds like this will be gutted when this update drops.”8 -
xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭So you hope they adjust content to accommodate the loss of damage across the board?
No, I think they should. Especially vRG and vDSR, the powercreep situation went into overdrive after the Harpooner's Wading Kilt dropped.starkerealm wrote: »
Classes that suffered severe nerfs in the past were simply left sub-optimal or non-viable for entire patch cycles.
And of course, with the release of One Tamriel, there were new difficulty spikes introduced that were left untouched for 3 and 6 months. Some (Bittergreen, for instance) remain to this day.
Well, it's not like Bittergreen was ever top priority. I mean they very well could just leave content as is and make it impossible to complete. I'm saying the situation is pretty unique compared to the last 2 years of namby pamby changes and definitely warrants content tweaks
What I'm thinking is that they probably realized its a slippery slope where they need to design harder trial content every year, but those trials already have bonkers DPS checks which means they need to add more broken OP sets.0 -
DarrowLykos✭✭✭Does no one remember SWG CU ? If a change like that could topple a Star Wars empire what do you think is going to happen here lol. Wake up and smell the coffins !!6
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »
hack the minotaur has tested heavy attack builds on the PTS using the buffed trial dummy and can barely make it to 40k, but this is on a buffed trial dummy and likely the absolute maximum they can produce because the heavy attacks arent scaling to dmg so no matter your buffs its going to do the same dmg, that means its probably going to do 15k in normal content
Okay, I just saw his video where he's saying HA build is losing like 40% DPS in real content like overland WBs. That's not good because that is not raising the floor. It might change in coming weeks of PTS
this is what all the rebuttal posts have been trying to explain, the PTS changes are not hurting the top end dps as much as they are hurting the mid tier or lower players
thats not all of the reason of why there is outrage (gutting of classes being the other) but it is a major reason
This is what I've been saying all week.6 -
Seminolegirl1992✭✭✭✭✭Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+
The average player comes nowhere close to that.
Precisely. Most people are not as good as SkinnyCheeks. I can do 97k on my magdk. That will go back down to 80s+ probably- which excludes a lot of people from trifecta runs.@Seminolegirl1992 PC/NA CP 2400+ PVE, PVP, RP, Housing: Tel Galen, Fair Winds, Moon Sugar, Grand Psijic, Forsaken, HOTLC, Bastion, Ravenhurst, Gardner, Alinor, Hakkvild's, Gorinir, Kragenhome, Hundings, & more- feel free to come see! Wish listMisery's Master | Mindmender | Planesbreaker | Swashbuckler Supreme | Godslayer | Gryphon Heart | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Dro-m'athra Destroyer | Dawnbringer | Former Empress2 -
xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭I haven't seen any examples of actual combat content to compare with U34 Live, that's why I'm only talking about dummy parses.
Here you go. (Not my video.)https://youtu.be/piMyKwCi1og
I saw this now. Obviously this isn't good, HA playstyle is used by new players. This isn't raising the floor.
I'm not sure if the build he used was the best though, it seems to be this, post-nerf Oakensoul with no HA damage buffing sets or Empower. 40% drop sucks though.
I already linked hack the Minotaurs video up above so here is a portion of what he wrote about it.
This isn't a parse, I mean we use parse numbers on the 21mil dummy because it provides standard buffs so everyone's parse can be assessed at the same standard level. In actual content you're not doing the full DPS because you're being interrupted by the boss' attacks and all that
The mid-level parse I mentioned, is someone who is doing, let's say hitting 60-70k on the dummy in U34, we can then compare how it looks in U350 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The mid-level parse I mentioned, is someone who is doing, let's say hitting 60-70k on the dummy in U34, we can then compare how it looks in U35
the problem is the trial dummy got buffed, which makes you hit the trial dummy on PTS harder than the live trial dummy which is masking some of the problem
most people that have been demonstrating the problem have been using the 3 or 6 mil dummy as those are unchanged
results from the 3-6 mil dummy testing show how bad the problem really isplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities9 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This isn't a parse...
In point of fact, it is a parse. Parsing just means taking apart a complex event or dataset and evaluating it. If they're giving you their combat metrics readout, it's a parse.I mean we use parse numbers on the 21mil dummy because it provides standard buffs so everyone's parse can be assessed at the same standard level.
The problem with this is that ZOS knows it, and today they have decided they're not playing fair. The trial dummies on the PTS have been modified with an altered set of buffs, so while they are standardized to other parses on the same server, they are not standardized to compare with parses on the live servers.
In order to get an accurate parse for a character on live and on the PTS, you would need to use a 6m or 3m dummy, because those do return consistent data between live and PTS.
However, those of us who are old school enough remember when we had to do our parses against actual enemies, (before dummies were a thing), and the parse data above reflects that approach.15 -
xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+
The average player comes nowhere close to that.
Precisely. Most people are not as good as SkinnyCheeks. I can do 97k on my magdk. That will go back down to 80s+ probably- which excludes a lot of people from trifecta runs.
But the thing is, the rotation is now much less dynamic (busy) because of the longer DoTs. I think you can actually parse closer to ceiling easier. You don't have to be some parsing god1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »OP Quote: The current DPS ceiling goes upto 140k+
The average player comes nowhere close to that.
Precisely. Most people are not as good as SkinnyCheeks. I can do 97k on my magdk. That will go back down to 80s+ probably- which excludes a lot of people from trifecta runs.
But the thing is, the rotation is now much less dynamic (busy) because of the longer DoTs. I think you can actually parse closer to ceiling easier. You don't have to be some parsing god
sorry to break it but rotations are still just as busy
if you are not using a skill + light attack each GCD, you are losing dmg
changing when you refresh dots does not do anything except simplify the rotation so instead of 5x spammable and then refresh dot, its 15 spammable then refresh dot
so not only is it a little more mindless button mashing, its not really changing much in the scheme of a rotation, but because of all of the flat nerfs, the basically same rotation is giving you less dmgplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities19 -
xgoku1✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »f they're giving you their combat metrics readout, it's a parse.I mean we use parse numbers on the 21mil dummy because it provides standard buffs so everyone's parse can be assessed at the same standard level.
The problem with this is that ZOS knows it, and today they have decided they're not playing fair. The trial dummies on the PTS have been modified with an altered set of buffs, so while they are standardized to other parses on the same server, they are not standardized to compare with parses on the live servers.
In order to get an accurate parse for a character on live and on the PTS, you would need to use a 6m or 3m dummy, because those do return consistent data between live and PTS.
However, those of us who are old school enough remember when we had to do our parses against actual enemies, (before dummies were a thing), and the parse data above reflects that approach.
HTM didn't give their combat metrics readout. Unless I missed it, he just posted the kill times and says "roughly 35-40%" reduction.
Yeah, adding Major Slayer and Minor Courage is definitely sneaky. Obviously if we have data from both Live and PTS on 3m/6m dummy that's fine. But most people go for the 21mil dummy these days. It's just standard practice and probably easier to find online
1 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭And what's the alternative? Just keep introducing more and more broken sets till the DPS goes to 200k or something?
Stop releasing overpowered sets and mythics.
No drama to it.
That is exactly the simple approach that has been the consensus approach on PTS feedbacks for a good stretch, and content creators highlight this all the time.
Throw on briarheart+hundings and parse, and it becomes clear that the power creep are the sets.
It is a simple issue made truly dramatic and community toxic to stubbornly continue to release overpowered sets and mythics, introduce sweeping changes obviously aimed at reducing server load under the guise of tuning the very power creep that they themselves are introducing to move expansions and DLCs.
It leads to endless threads such as these where we debate one another and angst is created on each side.
Just stop releasing overtuned sets, done and done.Esse quam videri.15 -
LordDragonMara✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »
The power increase people are going to see is literally on dummy parses, and only from extremely specific builds and people.
I haven't found any raid videos from the U35 PTS yet, there's only Dummy parses to go on. I haven't seen any examples of actual combat content to compare with U34 Live, that's why I'm only talking about dummy parses.Holycannoli wrote: »
LA weaving is not why people are jaded.
Yeah, people are tired of ZOS making big changes, it's been worse since 2020 is what I meant. I do think LA weaving is something that should be addressed at some point though, because it is a major pain point for new players and the like.
And how about not talking from the names of new players? I'm a new player and i played the game mainly because of it's combat, and what makes it fun.
I find it challenging and something to look to improve on.
I don't want to play skilless game with boring combat, where my skills as a player are not taken into account.
And dare to explain why you hate LA weaving + the old 10sec system ?
And still waiting to answer the guy that wanted to show him prove with stats about your claims. You very conveniently miss that post.
9
