U35 Changes Are MUCH Worse For Average / Low APM Players vs. End Game Players

HackTheMinotaur

@Gilliamtherogue mentioned on ESO Live that over 80 hours of testing was completed on Update 35. How much of this was directed at average or low APM players completing basic content? World bosses? Solo Arenas?

I ran a quick comparison using a very popular build for less experienced players: Heavy Attack Mag Sorc.

Solo vs the Sable Knight WB in High Isle had the following results:

Update 34: Time to kill: 3m 10s
Update 35: Time to kill: 4m 24s

That's roughly 35-40% less overall damage on what is literally the EASIEST build to play in ESO. MUCH more damage lost compared to what end game players have posted recently (20-25%?). Video comparison is below.

What happened to preserving Heavy Attack builds? What happened to raising the floor? 1000's of players currently enjoying simple builds like this will be gutted when this update drops.

https://youtu.be/piMyKwCi1og

Styxius

There's some potential good that can come from these changes, but it's very poorly constructed on the surface, unfortunately. These changes should've been more openly discussed with the community to receive more feedback and could've saved a ton of development on ill-advised decisions.

prof_doom

About the only good change in this patch is extending the buff/debuff timers.
Everything else seems to be detrimental to enjoyable gameplay.

starkerealm

The other potential good thing is, not having to calculate damage for light and heavy attacks may increase server performance. But, that is a meaningless silver lining unless LA/HA damage is calibrated to a much higher baseline.

The irony is, if the LA/HA damage was pushed significantly higher, they could raise the floor while also lowering the ceiling by mauling the classes the way they have. But, as it stands? Ugh.

xylena_lazarow

prof_doom wrote: »

About the only good change in this patch is extending the buff/debuff timers.
Everything else seems to be detrimental to enjoyable gameplay.

The extended DoT timers make them easier to manage, but then they blanket nerfed DoT dps, negating any advantage gained from better uptime or a simpler rotation. Over in PvP, they added a set that removes buffs, which basically negates all the changes designed to make non-Oakensoul buff management easier. 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

Katheriah

I'm pretty average in DPS role (I usually heal) and I kinda feel my knees starting to jerk...

Dalsinthus

They've been nerfing the heavy attack sorc setup for many patches now, but this seems like the deathknell. It was such a fun and accessible play style for pve; I'm sad to see it go.

Grandchamp1989

Katheriah wrote: »

I'm pretty average in DPS role (I usually heal) and I kinda feel my knees starting to jerk...

Healing is interesting.

I'll be very curious to hear from progression healers trying to heal vet Blackrose, Stone Garden/Shipwright Regret/Coral Aerie Hardmode, Kynes Aegis hardmode etc. if this goes through.

EDIT: Love your video's Hack!

ssewallb14_ESO

My current heavy attack/mines setup is seeing a 42% DPS loss compared to live.

After some adaptation, it's up to a 30% DPS loss, I lose my front bar shield, and the rotation is now about as difficult as a standard light attack weaving setup.

I don't know about other heavy attack build lovers, but I don't feel like this is better for me.

FantasticFreddie

Yep. They could have made the game so much more accessible this patch! Oakensould was a big step in the right direction! They HAD it! All they had to do was make a few small tweaks.... buff heavy attacks a little.... make some pve-only slottable CP that Buffed heavy attacks further, and BOOM. Any class can 1 bar heavy attack their way through arenas and dungeons and world bosses. So much group content would have been accessible to the older and disabled crowd.

Instead we got..... this.

Arthtur

And ppl are still defending ZOS because this will help weaker players... If this goes live some ppl wont be even able to do World Bosses anymore.

starkerealm

Arthtur wrote: »

And ppl are still defending ZOS because this will help weaker players... If this goes live some ppl wont be even able to do World Quest Bosses anymore.

Fixed that for ya...

I mean, I'm being a little snarky here, but it's difficult to overstate just how badly this hits the bottom end of the spectrum. There are a lot of players in that sub-5k DPS range, and I suspect they're going to be shoved down to around 2.5k DPS from this.

BlueRaven

First @HackTheMinotaur has an amazing site, and his builds are excellent. I subscribe to him on YouTube and I am never disappointed. Super knowledgeable about eso.

Second: The oak ring (and his builds) really gave me the confidence to finally set foot into some content I never would dared to before. (I have group anxiety in dungeons, I hate to feel I am the weak link in a group.)
At least I will have a few more weeks to do them, but I think when the patch hits I will just go back to my normal overland dailies.

At least it was nice while it lasted.

Dragonlord573

starkerealm wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

And ppl are still defending ZOS because this will help weaker players... If this goes live some ppl wont be even able to do World Quest Bosses anymore.

Fixed that for ya...

I mean, I'm being a little snarky here, but it's difficult to overstate just how badly this hits the bottom end of the spectrum. There are a lot of players in that sub-5k DPS range, and I suspect they're going to be shoved down to around 2.5k DPS from this.

Hyper, a tank for unchained animals, the team that get Swashbuckler Supreme first, made a max level character...

And died to a troll in a starter zone.

Imagine how new players will be.

starkerealm

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

And ppl are still defending ZOS because this will help weaker players... If this goes live some ppl wont be even able to do World Quest Bosses anymore.

Fixed that for ya...

I mean, I'm being a little snarky here, but it's difficult to overstate just how badly this hits the bottom end of the spectrum. There are a lot of players in that sub-5k DPS range, and I suspect they're going to be shoved down to around 2.5k DPS from this.

Hyper, a tank for unchained animals, the team that get Swashbuckler Supreme first, made a max level character...

And died to a troll in a starter zone.

Imagine how new players will be.

Yeah, I have a StamDK who was just pushed under 20k by these changes.

This is dire.

Arthtur

starkerealm wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

And ppl are still defending ZOS because this will help weaker players... If this goes live some ppl wont be even able to do World Quest Bosses anymore.

Fixed that for ya...

I mean, I'm being a little snarky here, but it's difficult to overstate just how badly this hits the bottom end of the spectrum. There are a lot of players in that sub-5k DPS range, and I suspect they're going to be shoved down to around 2.5k DPS from this.

Nice one xD
And u arent wrong. U are right. I just based this on ppl who were doing 30k dps and dropped under 20k.
With every day we get new problems with this patch. But hey, ZOS parsed for 80 hours xD If only they would try it while playing the game...

Skjaldbjorn

I cannot fathom why they think this "buffs the floor". It doesn't. It just sends the ceiling crashing down to obliterate the floor. The best method they could take to assist low APM players is normalizing LA/HA damage, yes, but keeping it high-ish, and returning that damage to player CLASS (not shared, but class, which is easier to balance) skills and encourage their use more.

starkerealm

Arthtur wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

And ppl are still defending ZOS because this will help weaker players... If this goes live some ppl wont be even able to do World Quest Bosses anymore.

Fixed that for ya...

I mean, I'm being a little snarky here, but it's difficult to overstate just how badly this hits the bottom end of the spectrum. There are a lot of players in that sub-5k DPS range, and I suspect they're going to be shoved down to around 2.5k DPS from this.

Nice one xD
And u arent wrong. U are right. I just based this on ppl who were doing 30k dps and dropped under 20k.
With every day we get new problems with this patch. But hey, ZOS parsed for 80 hours xD If only they would try it while playing the game...

The worst part is, having parsed with the PTS build, I can see how they thought it was a good idea. If you don't pay attention to your damage output at all, parsing feels better, or at least easier.

The problem is, parsing isn't the game. Parsing is something you do while you're working to get access to new stuff, killing time while waiting for something to happen, or (in my case) if you want to slip into a narcoleptic coma for six months. Worse, parsing is actively less interesting on the PTS because of the longer uptimes.

But, again, that's. Not. The. Game.

If Gil spent two weeks parsing to get a feel for how this patch would feel in the wild, that was poor allocation of time.

endorphinsplox

On top of that, for casual players who want difficult content clears and as such might buy a clear from a competent raiding guild, raid carry prices will go up as content gets harder. So it once again makes things worse for casual players and an attempt to broaden appeal ends up appealing to no one.

Dagoth_Rac

They failed so spectacularly at "raising the floor" that it seems almost impossible to believe they were sincere in their stated aim to make content more accessible. Like we are not getting the full story. Normal mode PUG runs out of Craglorn zone chat are gonna be significantly more difficult. How in the world is that compatible with giving average players confidence to tackle more difficult content?

They made the rotation of target dummy parsing easier. I'll give them that. But light attacks are garbage. Heavy attacks are garbage. Spammables are garbage. DoTs are garbage. The average player is not gonna say, "I can't clear anything, but at least I had fewer bar swaps before we wiped."

weights44

The claim the devs made about “parsing for 80 hours…” is clearly not enough time parsing to make changes the way they have with update 35. As someone who actively parses for a minimum of 15 hours weekly since I started being a dps (few years now), it takes a LOT longer than 80 hours to even grasp one class, the ability timers, weaving mechanics, weapon skill timers, etc etc. It’s laughable the “80 hours parsing” was used as a baseline to literally gut every meaningful class ability, every weapon ability, all DOTs, and LA/HA’s. I’d like to actually watch this persons parses. To see where his/her abilities rank in the game. To see the cmx update 34 vs update 35. And to be able to recommend hitting every single class the way they did based on a very small window of date collection…

If they think this is going to help out the causal player they clearly are clueless to what’s actually happening in this game.

xaraan

Yea, I think their excuses for the changes don't fit. If they wanted to normalize damage and help raise the floor a bit, they could have just make LA's a flat amount like they are, but have that amount be higher. Then you cap the ceiling, but raise the floor.

As it is, just seems like they want to make LA's lackluster, but still required for the best DPS. So newer players that don't weave should learn to weave for this tiny amount of improvement? Make it worthwhile for a player to learn to weave.

Something else is going on here that we aren't hearing about. I don't know who is dead set on these changes that they just slapped a new face on the changes from two years ago that failed testing and are now hammering it through despite how badly received they are.

starkerealm

weights44 wrote: »

I’d like to actually watch this persons parses. To see where his/her abilities rank in the game.

I have. Granted, it was over four years ago, but dude's an excellent player. Which might be a big part of the problem, if he was balancing around his experiences.

Holycannoli

xaraan wrote: »

Yea, I think their excuses for the changes don't fit. If they wanted to normalize damage and help raise the floor a bit, they could have just make LA's a flat amount like they are, but have that amount be higher. Then you cap the ceiling, but raise the floor.

Raising the floor by nerfing damage is asinine. Who even signed off on these changes?

acastanza_ESO

Holycannoli wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Yea, I think their excuses for the changes don't fit. If they wanted to normalize damage and help raise the floor a bit, they could have just make LA's a flat amount like they are, but have that amount be higher. Then you cap the ceiling, but raise the floor.

Raising the floor by nerfing damage is asinine. Who even signed off on these changes?

Someone who has no idea what they're doing and no business being within a mile of combat design.

Honestly it's reached the point where Microsoft needs to step in and impose a new combat team. It can't possibly be worse. At least brand new people might be able to acknowledge that they don't understand the game and put some time into actually learning it.

Pevey

The players who will be most affected by this are the ones who are mostly not even aware of the PTS. Also a few who are white-knighting for zos and not testing how the changes will affect them.

We should all just stop complaining like ZOS seems to want (they don't care for our "knee-jerk" reactions) and just let this steaming pile go live as is.

The ensuing fallout will be sad but also entertaining in a schadenfreude sort of way. Maybe it is the only way the devs will see what we were trying to tell them.

Just let it burn if that's what they really want.

Toxic_Hemlock

Pevey wrote: »

The players who will be most affected by this are the ones who are mostly not even aware of the PTS. Also a few who are white-knighting for zos and not testing how the changes will affect them.

We should all just stop complaining like ZOS seems to want (they don't care for our "knee-jerk" reactions) and just let this steaming pile go live as is.

The ensuing fallout will be sad but also entertaining in a schadenfreude sort of way. Maybe it is the only way the devs will see what we were trying to tell them.

Just let it burn if that's what they really want.

I'm one of those players that suffers from bad nerves (too much heavy machinery usage) and using my mouse somedays is troublesome to put it mildly. Overland was sometimes a challenge even without this latest patch and taking even longer would be the end to my ESO career.

I know I have but one voice here and me leaving won't amount to squat, but I am sure there are more like me out there that enjoy the casual lifestyle ESO offered.

I left NWN when they decided to make trash fights a challenge and came here for relaxing combat, and TBH I can and will do the same here too.

DairyCat

I agree they completely left heavy attack builds in the dirt. Just make the heavy attack sets like Noble Duelist, Sergeant's Mail, Undaunted Unweaver etc give bonus damage that scales with WD/SD rather than fixed damage. No one was pulling 130K DPS on a heavy attack build.

DairyCat

xaraan wrote: »

Yea, I think their excuses for the changes don't fit. If they wanted to normalize damage and help raise the floor a bit, they could have just make LA's a flat amount like they are, but have that amount be higher. Then you cap the ceiling, but raise the floor.

They shouldn't use fixed amounts for light attacks period. It's really awkward to balance around.

If the fixed amount is too high then it becomes counterintuitive because it then becomes more important to weave in the early game (where less people know how to weave), but less important in the late game (where more people know how to weave) due it the fixed amount not scaling.

If the fixed amount is too low, it feels unsatisfying to use and weaving becomes unsatisfying to learn, at which point you may as well just delete light attack weaving and make it share the same GCD as abilities.

BretonMage

DairyCat wrote: »

If the fixed amount is too high then it becomes counterintuitive because it then becomes more important to weave in the early game (where less people know how to weave), but less important in the late game (where more people know how to weave) due it the fixed amount not scaling.

It can't be that hard to teach players to alternate/precede their skills with a LA. No one is expecting them to have a perfect weave at level 30. Just a slow LA - skill would suffice. I think weaving was demonised early on, because people were saying that you needed animation cancelling to be a good player, and that just put undue stress on everyone.