What Power Creep? - Over the last years, my DPS has steadily declined

Faulgor · July 2022

In preparation for this PTS cycle, I decided to install the Combat Metrics addon again, to have a proper comparison once I get around to test my characters on the PTS after the EU character copy.
To my surprise, I still had some saved parses from 2 years ago, and what a surprise it has been!
They were all higher than my current ones.

I want to use my stamplar and my magsorc as an example.
You'll notice that neither has/had meta gear, just beginner to advanced. I don't run vet trials, my characters are mostly geared for solo arenas and vet dungeons. I'm not one of those top-end players that "produce obscene damage". That's also why I only parse on 3M dummies, trial dummies are irrelevant to me because I never encounter those conditions in the game.

Stamplar
Velidreth, Deadly Strike, Automaton.
2020 Setup with DW/Bow, 2022 with DW/2H.

2020

2022

Magsorc
Zaan, False God's Devotion, Mother's Sorrow

2020

2022

Of course, there are some differences. E.g. the 2022 Stamplar setup doesn't profit as much from Automaton as it used to (I promise, the bow setup was even worse than 2H), I had to switch to sustain food to not run dry, there might be better rotations these days, yadda yadda.
As for the Magsorc, I had an even older setup with Mechanical Acuity + Necropotence, that pushed 50k before Elsweyr released. 12 months later, I had to switch the whole setup to even get the 44k you see above. Now, I'm down to 37k.

My point is: I didn't suddenly forget how to light attack weave over those years, nor how to keep up my rotation.
This is all due to nerfs by ZOS!

Nerfs to crit chance and crit damage across the board, nerfs to CP with the new system, another nerf to CP just last update, nerfs to sets, nerfs to skills, all of which cost me 15-25% DPS. It's only ever down, down, down.

So, answer me this: Where is all this power creep people keep talking about? Because I don't see it, I really don't.
Could it be that it is mostly confined to highly coordinated trial groups, that have a high uptime on significant buffs like Major Slayer, Major Force, Major Berserk and the like? That these groups use particular gear sets that are overperforming in content outside of said trials? That using trial dummy parses as a main source for PVE balance could be misleading? And that maybe, we shouldn't demolish everybody else by blanket nerfing all sources of damage just to "lower the ceiling"?

And now, we have another blanket nerf coming, the mother of all nerfs so to speak. Even if the upcoming changes were helping players on the very low end who struggle to weave, why should players like me get nerfed again? Players that don't struggle with weaving, but don't run the crême de la crême of trial sets, or in highly coordinated trial groups? If anything, we need buffs! Buffs to sets that are more accessible to us (I like the new dungeon set that is an alternative to Yolna, more like that please), and buffs to skills that are more reasonable to use in the content we run, where enemies don't stand still for 10 minutes.

Thing is, after watching Wheeler and Gilliam on ESO LIVE, I was optimistic. I share most of their outlook and goals on how to make ESO's combat more accessible, giving more people the tools to progress their skills on a reasonable trajectory and tackle the interesting content in this game - because over the last couple of years, the exact opposite has happened. And it's because of you, ZOS, not your players' inability to string two skills together.
For crying out loud, stop the frelling nerfs.

Pevey · July 2022

This is a great post. Yes, there has been nerf after nerf after nerf. The power creep has come from theorycrafters who come up with builds (usually the shiny new sets/items) that adapt and push the boundaries.

But for someone using the same basic, reasonable, class-skills based build they used 2-3 years ago, they have felt nerf after nerf.

No power creep there. And that is how the majority of players play the game.

Everest_Lionheart · July 2022

Endgame player here. I stopped chasing meta after Blackwood dropped. DPS was so off the charts at the high end that you could slap together any 2 DPS sets and break 100K on the trials dummy. I was hitting well over 60K on the 3mil at the time as well. I was hitting 105K plus on all classes. My personal preference was my way off meta Stamden running EC and undaunted infiltrator with a maelstrom lightning backbar that hit 101K. In AY + Rele I was doing 114.

We were in a good place, you could literally play how you wanted.

Then came the crit nerf which pushed everyone to flat damage sets which actually outperformed the previous meta by a significant margin but it also drastically narrowed the choice of what you could wear to hit those sky high numbers. There were a couple fun niche builds until….

Hybridization. One meta to rule them all. Mag vs Stam no longer mattered, DPS went up even more so long as you chased the meta. You couldn’t really wear what you wanted anymore because going off meta was a 20K+ DPS loss. All the skill bars and rotations basically looked the same. Hybridization = Vanilla, but as expected DPS numbers went way up.

Then comes the CP nerf. Easy pill to swallow. Reasonable drop to damage but manageable enough for the endgame players, it’s not like we were all suddenly getting GS and PB those titles still have to be earned through more hours of reps than humping the dummy. For context groups are still struggling to get GH despite the near double damage output from when Summerset was released, it’s like DPS doesn’t actually really matter, except so much content that came after took into account the higher DPS and I see no plan to align that with the new direction of these combat changes.

So here we are today, things look pretty bleak, endgame will adjust to be in the 100K range again so long as we chase the one meta to rule them all, all the rotations will look the same, there will be no variety, no niche builds, no real flow to combat except mindlessly pressing two buttons in a row. Not exactly engaging.

I feel bad for everyone that is going to be cutoff from the PvE veteran experience because even the 4man trifectas are going to be on a ridiculous level with these changes. Those non meta sets and niche builds really shined in 4man and those days appear to now be thoroughly behind us.

X_K · July 2022

another point that isn't really stated here. True Healers got gutted. the HPS provided from them is much much lower on PTS than live. so again. properly setup groups wont suffer too much. they will adapt. its the people that dont ready every patch note. watch every eso live. test every skill on PTS every time it gets updated. that wont know how to fix the issues these changes have made to their setups. every time a major change is made it always always always hurts the lower end / casual players more than the top end. this patch is no different. Iron atro dps on live for the magdk Heavy attack build was 94k. without minor courage or major slayer. now its 54k with major slayer and minor courage. again the off meta and more unique setups suffer more than the meta setups. everyone will drop 2h and go back to maelstrom inferno as its the best backbar weapon by far as of week 1 pts. which enforces weaving for even slightly optimal damage once again. the exact opposite of their "intentions"

Artim_X · July 2022

Over the years I got used to a simple rotation that was easy on my hands. I was content that the sets and skills I used made it decent.

Back in the day on a pure stat based build, I could hit around 36k on the 3 million and 6 million target dummy. Many nerfs later, I had to farm the newest stuff just to get around 30k on the 3 million dummy, but you know what... I was still content that I wasn't completely useless while still being able to use the skills and rotation that I wanted to use.

Now on the PTS, I had to change my rotation to something that is quite dull and I'm essentially forced into equipping the new Rage of the Ursauk set that grants empower just to hit around 25-26k on the 3 million dummy. Without that set, my playstyle hits around 21k on the 3 million dummy, which definitely isn't suitable for vet content.

ZOS continues to make the game harder for those who don't play in a typical manner, but still want to enjoy the game, which imo contradicts everything they are trying to accomplish with this patch.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

What's the opposite of Power Creep?

That's what Warden does

Faulgor · July 2022

X_K wrote: »

another point that isn't really stated here. True Healers got gutted. the HPS provided from them is much much lower on PTS than live.

I didn't even consider healers yet, despite most of my vet dungeon chars being healers. Probably because HPS isn't as easily tested on dummies.

Really love a Sorc healer I refurbished recently, but the nerf to healing tick frequency will really gut Power Surge even more, not to mention the nerf to Dark Convergence turns a nice dungeon support set into trash. They also buffed ground HOTs, but guess what, Sorcs don't have any. With RR also decimated, I guess I'm supposed to spam Combat Prayer or Matriarch now, just like DDs spam their spamable?

4 years ago, that very same character ran trifectas in new vet DLC dungeons. Now I'm reluctant to take it into any vet dungeon. I feel defeated.

code65536 · July 2022

The problem is that whenever ZOS adds something that has the potential to increase power, they are afraid of the power creep that it'll generate, so they lock that power behind conditions. It might be "kiss-curse", where they pair that power with some kind of downside. E.g., Thrassian, vamp toggle, etc.

Or it might be that the power is tied to something that isn't as easily attainable. Minor Brittle, for example, is a powerful debuff that is tempered by the difficulty of keeping it up. So it's not something you will see in solo play or in casual groups.

The problem here is that the people at the top are always taking advantage of every source of power they can. And that is where the power creep comes from. And that is where the power gap comes from.

And whenever the top gets too high, ZOS decides to nerf power, but in a way that affects a broader audience. CP, for example, is passive power that is available to everyone. So when they nerf CP to "rein in power creep", the result is that the mainstream player who has not taken advantage of all the varied ways to extract power are left in a worse position than before.

Tannus15 · July 2022

The crit damage cap was actually a really good power control nerf.
the less organised your group, the less impact this nerf had on you.

there have also been some really smart buffs which help less organised groups, like adding minor breach to pierce armour. less organised groups suddenly had better pen, putting them on par with better organised groups who were using power of the light for that debuff previously

then there have been some really bad generalised nerfs, like the CP nerfs and the light attack nerfs. This just lowers everyone's dps across the board.

What we needed was targeted nerfs. For example, at the top end stampede with a maelstrom 2h was out performing every other back bar option by 10k dps. this has been nerfed hard this update and that alone would have dropped dps from the 130k to 120k range.
Crystal weapon was out performing every other spammable option. This has also been nerfed hard.

taken in isolation this actually would have gone a long way towards addressing the META power creep. However, take a look at what they have done to sorc. Hurricane got nerfed. Twilight got nerfed. Scamp got nerfed. Bound armaments got nerfed so hard no one is using it anymore. This is on top of all the other changes.

Most stam sorcs are finding that 9 out of 10 skills they use got nerfed, in addition to everything else.
Honestly it feels like there are 4 people trying to fix the high levels of dps and they all have their own preferred way of doing it, didn't confer with the others about what they are doing, and then the whole lot just got shoved into the game.

Faulgor · July 2022

code65536 wrote: »

The problem is that whenever ZOS adds something that has the potential to increase power, they are afraid of the power creep that it'll generate, so they lock that power behind conditions. It might be "kiss-curse", where they pair that power with some kind of downside. E.g., Thrassian, vamp toggle, etc.

Or it might be that the power is tied to something that isn't as easily attainable. Minor Brittle, for example, is a powerful debuff that is tempered by the difficulty of keeping it up. So it's not something you will see in solo play or in casual groups.

The problem here is that the people at the top are always taking advantage of every source of power they can. And that is where the power creep comes from. And that is where the power gap comes from.

And whenever the top gets too high, ZOS decides to nerf power, but in a way that affects a broader audience. CP, for example, is passive power that is available to everyone. So when they nerf CP to "rein in power creep", the result is that the mainstream player who has not taken advantage of all the varied ways to extract power are left in a worse position than before.

I don't think Minor Brittle and the like - buffs that require more coordination and dedication to keep up consistently - are necessarily a problem. Trial groups should have tools like that to plan their setup.

The problem starts when ZOS nerfs the broader audience in response, as you said. The targeted nerfs and buffs mentioned by Tannus15 are great examples of how they should have proceeded.

The present situation is made especially ridiculous because they professed to want to help the low end. I don't think low end sorcs are any happier than the high end about losing 33% of their pet damage.

BahometZ · July 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Endgame player here. I stopped chasing meta after Blackwood dropped. DPS was so off the charts at the high end that you could slap together any 2 DPS sets and break 100K on the trials dummy. I was hitting well over 60K on the 3mil at the time as well. I was hitting 105K plus on all classes. My personal preference was my way off meta Stamden running EC and undaunted infiltrator with a maelstrom lightning backbar that hit 101K. In AY + Rele I was doing 114.

We were in a good place, you could literally play how you wanted.

Then came the crit nerf which pushed everyone to flat damage sets which actually outperformed the previous meta by a significant margin but it also drastically narrowed the choice of what you could wear to hit those sky high numbers. There were a couple fun niche builds until….

Hybridization. One meta to rule them all. Mag vs Stam no longer mattered, DPS went up even more so long as you chased the meta. You couldn’t really wear what you wanted anymore because going off meta was a 20K+ DPS loss. All the skill bars and rotations basically looked the same. Hybridization = Vanilla, but as expected DPS numbers went way up.

Then comes the CP nerf. Easy pill to swallow. Reasonable drop to damage but manageable enough for the endgame players, it’s not like we were all suddenly getting GS and PB those titles still have to be earned through more hours of reps than humping the dummy. For context groups are still struggling to get GH despite the near double damage output from when Summerset was released, it’s like DPS doesn’t actually really matter, except so much content that came after took into account the higher DPS and I see no plan to align that with the new direction of these combat changes.

So here we are today, things look pretty bleak, endgame will adjust to be in the 100K range again so long as we chase the one meta to rule them all, all the rotations will look the same, there will be no variety, no niche builds, no real flow to combat except mindlessly pressing two buttons in a row. Not exactly engaging.

I feel bad for everyone that is going to be cutoff from the PvE veteran experience because even the 4man trifectas are going to be on a ridiculous level with these changes. Those non meta sets and niche builds really shined in 4man and those days appear to now be thoroughly behind us.

Definitely feel this.

ZiggyTStardust · July 2022

You are correct, the damage has gone down with the introduction of crit caps (though not really relevant in your parse) and the reduction in crit chance. However this decrease has been counteracted by the release of ever more broken dps (and support) sets, like Bahsei, Coral Riptide etc.
The games "power creep" is almost entirely to be blamed on zos insistence to release the new chapters with new more powerful sets, which they try to counteract by making large changes like reducing crit chance on every set or reducing Light Attack damage.
Without those sets, and new powerful support sets we wouldn't be having this problem

Everest_Lionheart · July 2022

ZiggyTStardust wrote: »

You are correct, the damage has gone down with the introduction of crit caps (though not really relevant in your parse) and the reduction in crit chance. However this decrease has been counteracted by the release of ever more broken dps (and support) sets, like Bahsei, Coral Riptide etc.
The games "power creep" is almost entirely to be blamed on zos insistence to release the new chapters with new more powerful sets, which they try to counteract by making large changes like reducing crit chance on every set or reducing Light Attack damage.
Without those sets, and new powerful support sets we wouldn't be having this problem

The most powerful front bar DPS set in the game is dependant on stacking LA’s and near perfect weaving. Because endgame players can keep a reasonable uptime on this why not increase the stacks to 10 to match Rele (the other LA dependant meta DPS set) and extend the timer to 10 seconds to match.

Of course that makes it even easier for the ceiling but makes it actually feasible for the floor to access this buff. That’s how you close the gap and make things more accessible , give the floor 10% more power.

Too much power creep? Nerf it to 8% Sensible balance. That’s it that’s you LA power creep right there.

TPishek · July 2022

ZOS needs to learn that spreadsheets are not based in reality and are not the right way to adjust things.

Dalsinthus · July 2022

This thread is so exactly spot on. I'm a mid-tier player. I have solid builds, but they are not meta. I've been treading water on DPS for years. With each patch I have had to work harder and become better just to stay about where I was previously. And some of my builds have lost ground to the point where I don't feel comfortable bringing them into a dungeon or trial anymore. I'm right at the edge of doing hard content - vet DLC dungeon perfects, newer vet trials, etc. - and these nerfs are going to push some of that content out of reach.

Dalsinthus · July 2022

Seems like ZOS is way too focused about what the top players are doing, when they are a small (but important!) group of players.

KeiRaikon · July 2022

ESO's problem with power creep has and mostly likely always will be the new sets that need to always be stronger than the last because that is the main source for getting people who don't care about the story content to buy the new chapters and DLC. With the last new chapters not offering anything worthwhile gameplay wise (A card game, some companions which are good for solo/roleplay not for groups, and antiquities) as opposed to new skills and classes (Warden, Psijic and Jewelry Crafting, Necromancer) sets have become the selling point of new content for many people. This will continue to be the case as long as they keep having the major selling point be sets and not new features.

I could further go on about how this impacts the design of new dungeons and trials as well as balancing but I think for most people it would be a TLDR and its not like ZOS is going to read and or care.

Ermiq · July 2022

Is this 2022 parse from PTS? If so, than...
Well... Not saying that there's no nerf, but your dps history doesn't prove your point in this case. Ofcourse there's the big nerf on current PTS, but it doesn't mean that there was no power creep before it.