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Why is ESO nerfing the player doing 60k?
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SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »PrimusTiberius wrote: »
That is exactly what I thought when I learned of the upcoming changes. I think this has a lot more to do with it than some may think.
Had ZOS spent the time to give us an optional level of difficulty, like we asked for, they wouldnt have had time to implement a game wide nerf. So who asked for this again?
Creating an optional difficulty would have taken a lot more to implement than this. And all the complaints about overland being too easy were also stressing how easy it was for their level 3 player too, not just their end game characters. It makes sense to me that these are connected.PCNA0 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. Spend time testing stuff on PTS
2. Try telling ppl how this will make them weaker in overland
3. Get blamed because its your fault
4. Whats the point?
Just because ppl ask for optional harder overland we are at fault? If this is rly about making overland harder then:
1. Its not even 1% more fun than before, its rather on negative value too for veteran players, so they failed anyway.
2. Its shows that somebody on ZOS doesnt know how to read, sorry, because players asked for optional veteran overland, not forced one.
Looking at those options i would prefer to say that nobody is at fault because nobody if benefiting from it. Please stop blaming veteran players or PvP players for everything...Edited by Arthtur on July 13, 2022 5:01PM3 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »PrimusTiberius wrote: »
That is exactly what I thought when I learned of the upcoming changes. I think this has a lot more to do with it than some may think.
Again I’m going to point out that the overwhelming consensus was and has been for years from folks is for an optional harder overland mode. Optional. And is almost without exception confined to overland. A thread that has been ignored for eight months even while having had virtually all discussion about the matter directed and forcibly moved to.
A thread you have been perhaps the most active participant in, and argued tirelessly (and well) against difficulty increases, and have acknowledged the optional solution as a workable one.
It would be like the majority of folks asking for a fast lane to be added, but the road is instead narrowed, and jumping to the people who asked for a fast lane being the culprit.
—edit just saw your other response, re:Creating an optional difficulty would have taken a lot more to implement than this. And all the complaints about overland being too easy were also stressing how easy it was for their level 3 player too, not just their end game characters. It makes sense to me that these are connected.
It certainly would have engaged a different part of the team. But I think your assertions it would be harder are based on conjecture. The heartburn to the community would have been far less, the blow to retention this approach will cause an all the rest of it will take manpower to deal with the same as implementing a vet overland mode.
Not in any interview did they single out overland as the target of this, while on the flipside overwhelmingly, and I do mean overwhelmingly the subject of the folks asking for harder difficulty modes was. And the proof is in the pudding in that this far more impacts other gameplay areas than overland.
So.Edited by Riptide on July 13, 2022 5:15PMEsse quam videri.3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »PrimusTiberius wrote: »
That is exactly what I thought when I learned of the upcoming changes. I think this has a lot more to do with it than some may think.
Again I’m going to point out that the overwhelming consensus was and has been for years from folks is for an optional harder overland mode. Optional. And is almost without exception confined to overland. A thread that has been ignored for eight months even while having had virtually all discussion about the matter directed and forcibly moved to.
A thread you have been perhaps the most active participant in, and argued tirelessly (and well) against difficulty increases, and have acknowledged the optional solution as a workable one.
It would be like the majority of folks asking for a fast lane to be added, but the road is instead narrowed, and jumping to the people who asked for a fast lane being the culprit.
The only suggestion I argued against was a separate optional veteran overland. I advocated for debuffs and challenge banners for story bosses even though I'd never use them myself.
But when players keep showing examples of how easy overland is for their level 3 character then I can see why they may choose to make their changes across the board.
Personally I am not going to make any judgements about these changes until I see how they affect my gameplay.PCNA1 -
lordspyder✭✭✭✭✭The big issue is that these nerfs hit top end players for about 10 - 20% while hitting lower end players for 40% +
These nerfs with prevent people from progressing while barely affecting the top tier players.14 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personally I am not going to make any judgements about these changes until I see how they affect my gameplay.
If you mostly play overland I think you’ll be fine
Esse quam videri.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »PrimusTiberius wrote: »
That is exactly what I thought when I learned of the upcoming changes. I think this has a lot more to do with it than some may think.
Had ZOS spent the time to give us an optional level of difficulty, like we asked for, they wouldnt have had time to implement a game wide nerf. So who asked for this again?
Creating an optional difficulty would have taken a lot more to implement than this. And all the complaints about overland being too easy were also stressing how easy it was for their level 3 player too, not just their end game characters. It makes sense to me that these are connected.
Can you explain the dot connect? Because I'm not seeing it, personally. The devs stated they were doing this to increase access to vet content for regular players. And the changes don't make Overland any harder. So I'm having a hard time seeing the connection personally.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 13, 2022 5:25PM3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Creating an optional difficulty would have taken a lot more to implement than this. And all the complaints about overland being too easy were also stressing how easy it was for their level 3 player too, not just their end game characters. It makes sense to me that these are connected.
Can you explain the dot connect? Because I'm not seeing it, personally. The devs stated they were doing this to increase access to vet content for regular players. And the changes don't make Overland any harder. So I'm having a hard time seeing the connection personally.
If damage is reduced for all characters across the board, and even more dramatically for lower level characters as some have stated, then it would have an impact on overland combat too, not just veteran dungeons and trials.
I have not found anything stating that these changes were to increase access to vet content for regular players, nor do I see how lowering everyone's damage would accomplish this. This is what I read as their reason for the changes:
"The main focuses in Update 35 are twofold: improving accessibility to the game’s combat by increasing the duration of outgoing ability effects (such as damage over time, buffs, and debuffs) and a continuation of the attempt to quell some of the obscene damage production at the high end."Edited by SilverBride on July 13, 2022 5:39PMPCNA1 -
SpacemanSpiff1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭lordspyder wrote: »The big issue is that these nerfs hit top end players for about 10 - 20% while hitting lower end players for 40% +
These nerfs with prevent people from progressing while barely affecting the top tier players.
that's a bingo9 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »PrimusTiberius wrote: »
That is exactly what I thought when I learned of the upcoming changes. I think this has a lot more to do with it than some may think.
In April, Rich Lambert did an interview where he discussed why they weren't changing overland difficulty despite people asking for it. "All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."
https://wccftech.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-high-isle-preview-qa-fsr-1-0-support-card-game-and-much-more/
Unless there's some group complaining that Vet DLC dungeons and trials are too easy that I'm not aware of...Edited by VaranisArano on July 13, 2022 6:26PM2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »PrimusTiberius wrote: »
That is exactly what I thought when I learned of the upcoming changes. I think this has a lot more to do with it than some may think.
In April, Rich Lambert did an interview where he discussed why they weren't changing overland difficulty despite people asking for it. "All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."
https://wccftech.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-high-isle-preview-qa-fsr-1-0-support-card-game-and-much-more/
Unless there's some group complaining that Vet DLC dungeons and trials are too easy that I'm not aware of...
They aren't changing overland difficulty, but reducing player damage will have an effect on how long it takes to kill all mobs, even those in overland.
This is only speculation but I can imagine when working out how to lower the ceiling they may have thought that since overland is such a cake walk according to some players why not just reduce everyone's damage across the board.
I'm not saying that they are making these changes to increase overland difficulty, but rather it would be a result of these changes that they may not see any harm in because of all the complaints of it being too easy.PCNA1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »They aren't changing overland difficulty, but reducing player damage will have an effect on how long it takes to kill all mobs, even those in overland.
This is only speculation but I can imagine when working out how to lower the ceiling they may have thought that since overland is such a cake walk according to some players why not just reduce everyone's damage across the board.
I'm not saying that they are making these changes to increase overland difficulty, but rather it would be a result of these changes that they may not see any harm in because of all the complaints of it being too easy.
I really think you're mistaken here. These balance changes were designed to punish players in the +100k range. And, I do mean, "punish." Based on what we're seeing, I think everyone else is just collateral damage. They're letting the combat team scuttle the entire game in a petty spat with a handful of players.16 -
Xinihp✭✭✭✭✭Theyre trying to close the gap between skill ceiling and floor...
This pursuit is folly. It is like depriving an entire population of food to "close the gap" between couch potatoes and Olympic athletes.
The problem is not the skills. Some people put in the time, practice, and effort to become better. Lowering damage for everyone does literally nothing to change the gap between a lower effort/skill player and a person who practices constantly.
Why are we trying to artificially limit the effect of people practicing, and why do we believe that lowering damage for anyone could conceivably accomplish such a dubious objective?
All this does is ensure more of the casual players will be excluded from higher end veteran content, because now their "barely adequate" DPS will be insufficient to even clear content. If the goal is to open more content to more players, this change literally will have the opposite effect.
Plus it will wreck pacing for the fights most of the game consists of: small packs of mobs, moving from one group to the next while questing and doing world content. These changes will make DoTs and AOE virtually not worth casting as they now take twice as long to do the same damage and 90% of the content in the game fights simply do not last that long.
It will be a LOT less fun to try and artificially force them to be.
Why reinvent the wheel of what makes ESO combat fun, dynamic, and unique, and risk wrecking the good thing you have going, just because of the (wrongly) perceived need to bring the DPS of people who practice closer to people who don't?
Most people who play casually couldn't care less what top end trial runners are doing. Why does ZOS?
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »If damage is reduced for all characters across the board, and even more dramatically for lower level characters as some have stated, then it would have an impact on overland combat too, not just veteran dungeons and trials.
It's mostly the players in the middle from what I'm understanding. On the cusp of various vet break points. Those mostly doing Overland or who are the very top of the playerbase in terms of skill mostly shouldn't notice as dramatic of a difference into what content they can complete (cept some low end trifecta teams). I've seen a lot of posts of people saying they can still do the various world bosses, for example. I can't play it myself though, cuz console. But yeah, I get you now. The changes don't make sense to that stated goal. But if we were to assume the changes made sense to a overall vision to nerf the whole playerbase, I guess nerfing the entire playerbase because people are bored of having too much (e.g. Overland) would make sense. I understand you now.I have not found anything stating that these changes were to increase access to vet content for regular players, nor do I see how lowering everyone's damage would accomplish this. This is what I read as their reason for the changes:
They stated that on ESO Live and went into depth about it. I've got a paraphrase in my discussion that I made during a very slow period of work. But, it's not word for word as I watching it live and also busy with other tasks. I think there might also be a VOD, but not sure on that.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611040/combat-team-will-be-live-on-twitch-now-pts-preview#latestEdited by spartaxoxo on July 13, 2022 7:41PM2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Those mostly doing Overland or who are the very top of the playerbase in terms of skill mostly shouldn't notice a difference. I've seen a lot of posts of people saying they can still do the various world bosses, for example. I can't play it myself though, so console.
It doesn't change the accessibility of overland (maybe with a few rare exceptions), but you can absolutely feel the difference immediately.
It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Like they're not creating a situation where players won't be able to quest anymore, but it feels significantly worse.3 -
Xinihp✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Would you say these changes make the game more or less fun to play?
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Those mostly doing Overland or who are the very top of the playerbase in terms of skill mostly shouldn't notice a difference. I've seen a lot of posts of people saying they can still do the various world bosses, for example. I can't play it myself though, so console.
It doesn't change the accessibility of overland (maybe with a few rare exceptions), but you can absolutely feel the difference immediately.
It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Like they're not creating a situation where players won't be able to quest anymore, but it feels significantly worse.
Hmmm 🤔 Interesting. I wonder then if that means Overland might be more fun for me, maybe silver lining to the massive setback I'm getting in tackling high end vet content...0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Would you say these changes make the game more or less fun to play?
Less.11 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Would you say these changes make the game more or less fun to play?
Less.
Far less.PS5/NA12 -
pklemming✭✭✭✭✭
✭I doubt anyone has gone on to PTS, done some tests and said, "Wow, this is way more fun". There is just disappointment and a certain level of anger, which may have cropped up once or twice on these forums.. possibly.
Let me give you what I consider an example, poor or not.:
You are at a restaurant. You are sitting down about to eat your steak, and the waiter comes along, takes your steak and gives you a plate of corned beef. Then they charge you the same price on the bill and wonder why you are unhappy.9 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I doubt anyone has gone on to PTS, done some tests and said, "Wow, this is way more fun". There is just disappointment and a certain level of anger, which may have cropped up once or twice on these forums.. possibly.
Let me give you what I consider an example, poor or not.:
You are at a restaurant. You are sitting down about to eat your steak, and the waiter comes along, takes your steak and gives you a plate of corned beef. Then they charge you the same price on the bill and wonder why you are unhappy.
It's more like you go to a favorite club known for playing...IDK trap or whatever it is the kids listen to these days as a vip. And then you find out it's gonna start playing country western music. The decorations, food, bartenders, etc are all the same. But, the music is Tim McGraw's greatest hits. There is nothing against Tim but that's not the club you got a VIP pass for.3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm reminded of the old adage "Be careful what you wish for... you just may get it."PCNA0 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I'm reminded of the old adage "Be careful what you wish for... you just may get it."
"Hey, Doc, I have an ingrown toenail that really hurts, can you fix it?"
"Sure thing." [Doc cuts off your foot]
"Hey, [snip] would you do that?"
"I just did what you asked for."
I mean, seriously, no one asked for this. No one.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 16, 2022 1:42PM7 -
Xinihp✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I'm reminded of the old adage "Be careful what you wish for... you just may get it."
Except no one wished for this. There's a lot of things I do wish for. Those NEVER come true.
But dismantling class identity and causing all DoTs and AOE to do take TWICE as long to do the same damage?
Show me one post where someone wished for that and I'll eat my socks.
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Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Those mostly doing Overland or who are the very top of the playerbase in terms of skill mostly shouldn't notice a difference. I've seen a lot of posts of people saying they can still do the various world bosses, for example. I can't play it myself though, so console.
It doesn't change the accessibility of overland (maybe with a few rare exceptions), but you can absolutely feel the difference immediately.
It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Like they're not creating a situation where players won't be able to quest anymore, but it feels significantly worse.
Hmmm 🤔 Interesting. I wonder then if that means Overland might be more fun for me, maybe silver lining to the massive setback I'm getting in tackling high end vet content...
Taking longer to kill simple mobs doesn't make them more "challenging" or interesting. Just means it takes longer.
(which is why "meat wall" difficulty systems in single player RPGs generally aren't satisfying, either - the enemies still have the same AI, they just need more hits to kill. That's tedium, not challenge. That said, "the AI & mechanics get harder" difficulty systems aren't very easy to make.)7 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Those mostly doing Overland or who are the very top of the playerbase in terms of skill mostly shouldn't notice a difference. I've seen a lot of posts of people saying they can still do the various world bosses, for example. I can't play it myself though, so console.
It doesn't change the accessibility of overland (maybe with a few rare exceptions), but you can absolutely feel the difference immediately.
It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Like they're not creating a situation where players won't be able to quest anymore, but it feels significantly worse.
Hmmm 🤔 Interesting. I wonder then if that means Overland might be more fun for me, maybe silver lining to the massive setback I'm getting in tackling high end vet content...
Taking longer to kill simple mobs doesn't make them more "challenging" or interesting. Just means it takes longer.
(which is why "meat wall" difficulty systems in single player RPGs generally aren't satisfying, either - the enemies still have the same AI, they just need more hits to kill. That's tedium, not challenge. That said, "the AI & mechanics get harder" difficulty systems aren't very easy to make.)
The simple mobs being harder to kill part will probably be dull ( I was never in favor of buffing trash, only elites and bosses). But, I think if the bosses actually have time to do their dialogues, maybe that will make things more interesting. Would be better if they also at least hit me harder, but I mean, it's a start, hopefully.0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It's not crippling... or, I should say it's not crippling for me, but I could immediately see, and feel the difference in damage on my Stamblade. Moving from that to my StamKnight was just utterly demoralizing.
Would you say these changes make the game more or less fun to play?
Less.
Far less.
In what context is the game less fun to play? Are you referring to Veteran Dungeons, Trials and Arenas? Or World Bosses, Harrowstorms and Vents? Or general Overland mobs?PCNA0
