Need to fix people instantly leaving DLC dungeons

Riptide · July 2022

My opinion - I enjoy the DLC content and them being “harder”, insofar as there are appreciable mechanics beyond tank and spank that can’t (always) be melted through on normal as a matter of course. And I hope they continue putting out that style of content, because group target dummies with trash in between them we have plenty of.

For me, it is not that I want easier/simpler/faster content to match the base game and time to completion, but do not want to be forced into grouping with folks wholly unprepared or uninterested in doing them. I’m happy to act as a guide/carryer/cat herder but not randomly and certainly not to some obnoxious person who pulls everything, either has no VC or has loud background noise, and has not prepared themselves mentally etc for a true teamwork footing. That, not the content, is a drag.

But engaging content where the team must work together is precisely what I hope they continue to develop. It is just something that reasonably needs an organized, not purely random team for.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Well what you see is irrelevent...
The fact is the only reason they arent getting access to dlc content is in fact that they did not pay for them

So they get a much better deal than those of us who actually pay for things. That seems backward to me.

Ultimately this wouldn't even be an issue if DLC dungeons weren't more difficult and time consuming in the first place. Players will always do what is the most efficient for their time and these aren't. This needs to be looked at.

I dont think its a better deal to be stuck with only the most boring dungeon
The difficulty is much more interesting in dlc
I do agree that some, like maarselok are too long but most of them are fine, its the base game one that are too easy, not the othr way around

SilverBride · July 2022

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Well what you see is irrelevent...
The fact is the only reason they arent getting access to dlc content is in fact that they did not pay for them

So they get a much better deal than those of us who actually pay for things. That seems backward to me.

Ultimately this wouldn't even be an issue if DLC dungeons weren't more difficult and time consuming in the first place. Players will always do what is the most efficient for their time and these aren't. This needs to be looked at.

I dont think its a better deal to be stuck with only the most boring dungeon
The difficulty is much more interesting in dlc
I do agree that some, like maarselok are too long but most of them are fine, its the base game one that are too easy, not the othr way around

If this were the case for most players they wouldn't be leaving the group when they realize they were put into a DLC dungeon.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

I think it's probably 8/10 times that I don't get a leaver, so majority of the time it is fine. But the other times it can be so disruptive that I'm forced to requeue or ask in guild chat because like 1 guy stayed and the other 2 dropped instantly.

So I think it's enough people that feel forced to be there for it to be an issue, but in my experience it is not the majority. I think they would have done something if it was the majority.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Well what you see is irrelevent...
The fact is the only reason they arent getting access to dlc content is in fact that they did not pay for them

So they get a much better deal than those of us who actually pay for things. That seems backward to me.

Ultimately this wouldn't even be an issue if DLC dungeons weren't more difficult and time consuming in the first place. Players will always do what is the most efficient for their time and these aren't. This needs to be looked at.

I dont think its a better deal to be stuck with only the most boring dungeon
The difficulty is much more interesting in dlc
I do agree that some, like maarselok are too long but most of them are fine, its the base game one that are too easy, not the othr way around

Difficult being interesting is subjective. What's a better deal is gonna depend on player taste and budget. I enjoy the DLC dungeons but other people may find them to be the boring ones because they find them tedious.

ETA

So in my opinion there really ought to be alternative source for a few transmutes so people who buy plus but hate rnd can still upgrade their gear. While Zenimax is not giving them a worse deal on purpose and are only excluding unpaid members from content they don't own, it does create the awkward situation where some of the people who pay Plus regrets a portion of their purchase because now they hate farming transmutes. I don't think it should be a separate queue though because that harms the regular RND by splitting it too much.

RevJJ · July 2022

Penalizing people who leave group would also penalizing people who leave for legitimate reasons.

Today, I queued as a healer for vFH. Tank was running all over the place, getting one-shot by mobs and bosses, DPS did not know mechanics, etc. We managed to get to the boss where you need to cleanse the corpses and after five wipes I had had enough of cleansing by myself, trying to keep a tank alive who ran in circles, trying to keep DPS alive who were doing low damage and dying to adds and nobody listening to mechs that I was trying to explain… so I quit. I requeued for a bunch of dungeons, got vFH again… and got put in the same group. Nope. So I left and got penalized. Why put me in the exact same group I left? I left for a reason, ZOS.

After the penalty timer finished, I queued for some dungeons again, got into vBDV. Tank kept getting one-shot (and blamed it on heals of course), DPS were not killing totems and salamanders… so I left after three wipes. Penalty timer again.

The amount of time I’ve wasted on penalty timer because of other players far outweighs the amount of time I’ve wasted on penalty timers because I didn’t want to do a certain dungeon as a random.

Alchemical · July 2022

I will suffer in a dungeon with other people playing badly for hours, I am fine with teaching people mechanics that are willing to learn, assuming I know those mechanics well enough to teach or am able to carry. I can, and have, died on normal Scalecaller for 3 hours and the people I drug kicking and screaming through it have since become significantly better players. I am glad I helped them, but I also don't expect everyone to put themselves through that though, it's a little silly to hold strangers to that standard.

But if /MY/ performance is holding the group back I would consider it /MORE/ courteous to leave so they can get a replacement capable of clearing. Not everyone is equally comfortable or even equally capable of clearing all content on all toons. I've got trifectas on my magsorc, but my tanking is subaverage at best. If I random into a dungeon that requires at least some fine understanding of tanking mechanics I am going to under perform. Should those people be punished by a longer and harder run due to my lack of tank experience when they just need their clear?

Being polite and kind to your group is subjective. Sometimes it's eating a few wipes so everyone can get through, sometimes it's knowing when to duck out. Punishment systems can't possibly recognize the nuanced difference between a 'legitimate' leave and someone merely rage quitting because they didn't want to do Mazzatun. The solution has been evident for years but ZoS won't implement it.

And they have tried to 'reward' people doing some of these old DLC dungeons with mythics, but if anything the problem has been exacerbated by Antiquities that require leads from these dungeons. While it may have been intended to incentives people to re-engage with older content, now more people 'need' to do them and are wasting more time on casual leavers than if they just suffered through recruiting for a premade. Cradle of Shadows is a huge sufferer of this, I honestly don't get many leavers, maybe 1 in 20, but this one almost ALWAYS does.

Xuhora · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Well what you see is irrelevent...
The fact is the only reason they arent getting access to dlc content is in fact that they did not pay for them

So they get a much better deal than those of us who actually pay for things. That seems backward to me.

Ultimately this wouldn't even be an issue if DLC dungeons weren't more difficult and time consuming in the first place. Players will always do what is the most efficient for their time and these aren't. This needs to be looked at.

I dont think its a better deal to be stuck with only the most boring dungeon
The difficulty is much more interesting in dlc
I do agree that some, like maarselok are too long but most of them are fine, its the base game one that are too easy, not the othr way around

If this were the case for most players they wouldn't be leaving the group when they realize they were put into a DLC dungeon.

this has more to do with the players doing the most efficient do reach their goal, not with leaving the group because it is to hard.
let me elaborate: Most of the players in the random queue are there for the reward, be it transmutes or XP or skill line leveling. and there is no doubt, that DLC dungeons are longer and a wee bit harder than base game dungeons, hence some are leaving the group, go do their crafting dailys, guild dailys and what not. they will come back to the random queue once their penalty is gone and they roll the dice again on the most efficient dungeon to get the 10 xmutes.

what bugs me the most in your argument is that you experience a punishment when you get to play what you paid for, this is actually beyond my understanding and i does not make for a good argument.

my solution would be: let the random queue be random including all Dungeons the player has access to (player gets to play what is paid for, and more dungeon groups from the specific queue can be filled, shorter waitingtimes for everyone)
BUT
if the dice rolls you a DLC Dungeon you get twice the rewards, this way the players have more incentive to stay in the group. effort and reward will check out between speeding a base game dungeon in 10 minutes or a DLC dungeon in 20 minutes.

problem solved

SilverBride · July 2022

Xuhora wrote: »

...what bugs me the most in your argument is that you experience a punishment when you get to play what you paid for, this is actually beyond my understanding and i does not make for a good argument.

This is exactly how it makes me feel. If I queue for a random I will be forced into dungeons I have no desire to spend my time in.

I understand that those without + are excluded from content that they haven't purchased but that doesn't mean those of us who have paid should not be given the choice to have the same experience.

In my opinion there is no good reason why we can't have base game queues and DLC queues the same way we have normal and veteran now.

thorwyn · July 2022

People are running dungeons for different reasons. Some are in for the transmute stones, some do them for the xp, some are trying to pick up the skill point, some are farming a certian set or item. The group finder is just a tool that randomly combines people and it is obvious that you will meet with different expectations at some point.

Leaving the group is a basic choice. It is not an exploit, it is not rude, it is not disrespectful - in some cases, leaving the group is actually the most polite way to handle a situation. Leaving is an perfectly legal option offered by the game. If a player is not happy with the group or the dungeon, you can not force them to play. Any attempt at punishing a player for leaving a group can be circumvented. You can Alt+F4 or you can just go afk to avoid the punishment unless the game is able to punish you based on your lack of APM (in which case some players are in for a surprise).

As for solutions:

In my opinion, the biggest chunk of unhappy players are those who want fast transmute crystals and are being queued into one of those endless DLC dungeons. ZOS could handle that by either raising the amount of transmute crystals you get for playing a DLC dungeon (20 sounds ok), OR completely remove the transmute crystals from random dungeons.

Dr_Con · July 2022

I think if the EXP bonus was once per day for normals per account, and that for the base dungeons you could vote on the difficulty once inside, and that veteran shifted to DLC dungeons only and is able to get multiple bonuses per account when run, this specific issue would go away. I don't feel that the exp reward should be shared between normals and vet, and I feel the base dungeons are so easy unless you are carrying a sub 50 team (Not to say I don't enjoy helping out newer players, it's just not as challenging and sometimes the time investment isn't something I'd expect). This suggestion is all about shifting incentives.

However, I do feel that queue times would increase for normals if the bonus is once per account.

ZOS does have some level requirements for the content. To satisfy all parties you could be allowed to check which DLCs you want to disable for matchmaking. Currently you are forced into being matchmade into dungeons if you paid for that content- if you have just the base game with no sub, however, you'll only get the base dungeons. The argument to not punish players who don't like your dungeons if they paid for access to that content can easily be made here.

They can just as easily let the bonus be applied for dungeons you select, but you'll have that special brand of people who will make the argument that they have 10 children to support and can only play for 2 hours a day on their McDonalds internet while only running Fungal Grotto I on all 18 of their characters.

If they gave players an expectation on how much time they are expected to invest per dungeon, the issue may improve marginally, but I think you'll still have the aforementioned player-type still trying to abuse the system (however it can already be abused so long as they only random queue with a F2P player who doesn't own any expansions, so the argument is silly, lol).

TLDR: System can be better, but it's in an alright state right now. RL gets in the way sometimes, and I don't have as many issues as the OP is describing. Queueing with randoms is a game of Russian Roulette to your sanity. Messing with it further will maybe lead to more abuse and more dev hours wasted for not much of a QOL benefit to anyone, however ZOS does have an obligation to allow players to disable DLCs that they paid for when it comes to matchmaking.

TLDR2: Let them eat cake the cake is a lie

spartaxoxo · July 2022

ZOS's first obligation is to make sure the product people paid for is functional. The random dungeon finder, is in part there to ensure that everyone can actually play the dungeons that they paid money to be able to play.

Allowing people to choose exclude these dungeons in the RND even though they are able to run them undermines that.

So no, they don't actually have an obligation to let people choose which dungeons they want to run in the random dungeon finder. It runs exactly as advertised and protects the functionality and value of a paid product. Could they and should they do something to help ESO+ members who don't like those dungeons to get transmutes? Sure. But, they aren't obligated to do so. And, I personally don't think they should do so in a way that so severely harms the experience of the people who DO want to use the product they paid money for.

Katlefiya · July 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

In my opinion, the biggest chunk of unhappy players are those who want fast transmute crystals and are being queued into one of those endless DLC dungeons. ZOS could handle that by either raising the amount of transmute crystals you get for playing a DLC dungeon (20 sounds ok), OR completely remove the transmute crystals from random dungeons.

Or maybe, ZOS could increase the transmute crystals reward for normal daily pledges from the measly 1 crytal to at least 5.

AvalonRanger · July 2022

Need to fix people instantly leaving DLC dungeons

I think this theme is wrong.

The Truth is "Need to fix fake tank and fake healer keep ruining non DLC Vet dungeon pledge."
This problem is never fix. Don't come to vet dungeon with fake build. This is the biggest reason
why people can't make pure DPS build for PVE contents.

Must make something punishment for the cheaters.

DigiAngel · July 2022

Well tomorrow my free ESO+ trial ends. After going through several DLC dungeons I've come to the conclusion that when I have an hour to play before work, dropping out of almost any of the DLC dungeons (not all though) is the right move for me. I did 2 today...March of Sacrifices and...some Shalador one...both took 30 minutes...with myself CP1390, the rest between 300 and 500. They just take way too long...and with the U35 dps nerf...they're going to take longer.

Porter_H · July 2022

radiostar wrote: »

If a player is continually bailing on DLC dungeons, it means they were in queue for a random (otherwise it would be the dungeon they selected). Maybe just have the GF stop placing that player into the DLCs and only give them a choice of a base game dungeon. Either that or put a checkbox in the Finder, which has been suggested before.

Anyone that pays for ESO+ should have to option to deselect DLCs from their random dungeons. Punishing people for paying for ESO+ is insane.

I don't leave DLC dungeons at the start but they are more time consuming than a lot of base game dungeons.

EozZoe1989 · July 2022

if anything , people need stop running ahead,, and let people who not done the quests do there thing.. yes we can catch up but some people are running ahead lol and going to world boss at the end completing it before we started..

Valion · July 2022

colossalvoids wrote: »

That's why it won't change as policing such stuff is worse than a lost queue time. If players have no time for a game and they're going for a low effort same reward stuff they're probably just quit all along instead of obeying some new rulesets.

"But if the rich need to pay taxes too, they will leave the country!"
Yes. And that's exactly the reason we should tax them - or get rid of them and their exploitation altogether.
Same counts for toxic, ignorant egoists ruining others' gaming experience in an online game.
Their time is not worth more than others', but like fake tanks and healers, they irritate many.
Which, as a matter of fact, will rather get the "good guys" to leave than the ignorant egoists.

Now guess which group is more willing to help and supportive towards a positive online gaming experience.

XiangliSYD · July 2022

I instantly leave lair of masselok when I just wanted my 10 crystals - I will just queue from a different char and wait out of the penalty timer.

Others I can stomach.

etchedpixels · July 2022

DigiAngel wrote: »

Well tomorrow my free ESO+ trial ends. After going through several DLC dungeons I've come to the conclusion that when I have an hour to play before work, dropping out of almost any of the DLC dungeons (not all though) is the right move for me. I did 2 today...March of Sacrifices and...some Shalador one...both took 30 minutes...with myself CP1390, the rest between 300 and 500. They just take way too long...and with the U35 dps nerf...they're going to take longer.

They are fun to do but you need to do them in an organized group and plan to do them at the time. Which is exactly why they don't need to be on the finder.

Fortunately we generally just cheese it. One member on an alt non ESO+, or cycle through them with one person bringing a low level each time, and when the low level hits 45 just delete it and create a new one. You can speedrun 180 crystals a day pretty easily with that kind of guild setup - so it's not like the refusal to change it achieves much except increasing the queue times because we don't use it except as a four.