Need to fix people instantly leaving DLC dungeons

Ittrix

To clarify, there's a reason veteran players didn't run random norms every day

ccfeeling wrote: »

All DLC dungeons have been nerfed a lottttttt ... and CP are so much powerful than before , nothing hard beside the HM ...

Some of you may don't know the real difficulty when the DLC dungeons just released

e.g.
MHK final boss , chained dog , they lost control when you passed the combat timer , 1 dog jump on you and it one shot non tank , no 1 shot now
MHK werewolf bleeding effect , was really strong before , I barely can tank 3 WW , what now ... I can tank 6 easily ...
LOM Azureblight Cancroid , Stranglers start pop from 2nd cycle , it's dps check in the past , you cannot finish this boss with low dps , b/c you will get over 8 stranglers then you all wipe , what now ? rare to see over 4 , healer is not required in fact

No reason you leave if you get into DLC dungeons tbh

Difficulty isn't part of it.
Imperial City Prison is longer than fungal grotto. The devs consider beating it within 45 minutes a speed-run and give you an achievement for it. The penalty for leaving is literally shorter.

danno8

Incentives are always better motivation than punishments.

ZoS just needs to add enough incentive to do DLC RNs. It's not that complicated. FF14 does this just fine with longer dungeons getting greater rewards.

If a dungeon takes twice as long but gets double the rewards it's not an issue.

Amottica

1. OP already noted the problem with the first suggestion, it would take too much labor and time to rework every dungeon so they take a similar time, and it would also have to be a similar challenge.

2. The second suggestion is also problematic. Increasing the reward for completing a DLC dungeon means those who do not sub or own the DLC dungeons would be left out and probably call it P2W even though it is not.

3. Increasing the penalty is probably the best suggestion. There is a good chance they are just swapping characters and queueing again so an account-wide penalty will mean they cannot touch the GF for dungeons or BGs or even enter Cyrodil until the timer rounds out for the account. They can still do their crafting writs or enjoy catching up with the latest DLC zone story.

Ittrix

Amottica wrote: »

1. OP already noted the problem with the first suggestion, it would take too much labor and time to rework every dungeon so they take a similar time, and it would also have to be a similar challenge.

2. The second suggestion is also problematic. Increasing the reward for completing a DLC dungeon means those who do not sub or own the DLC dungeons would be left out and probably call it P2W even though it is not.

3. Increasing the penalty is probably the best suggestion. There is a good chance they are just swapping characters and queueing again so an account-wide penalty will mean they cannot touch the GF for dungeons or BGs or even enter Cyrodil until the timer rounds out for the account. They can still do their crafting writs or enjoy catching up with the latest DLC zone story.

Number 3 is the best suggestion, but it's still not a great one. Make the penalties too great and you punish players who leave for viable reasons, such as the dungeon bugging or having a rude group. Plus, leaving the lengthier DLC dungeons would still be better for time even if the punishment was increased.

#2 is probably more viable. People already call having DLC giving you access to sets P2W. ZoS lets them there. No reason not to let 'em do the same here.

ccfeeling

Bug - You que , you got a group , then you blue screen , usually you will be removed by the group member when you back to the game .

So , you have to pay 20 mins penalty , suggest longer and account wide , really ?

Amottica

Ittrix wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. OP already noted the problem with the first suggestion, it would take too much labor and time to rework every dungeon so they take a similar time, and it would also have to be a similar challenge.

2. The second suggestion is also problematic. Increasing the reward for completing a DLC dungeon means those who do not sub or own the DLC dungeons would be left out and probably call it P2W even though it is not.

3. Increasing the penalty is probably the best suggestion. There is a good chance they are just swapping characters and queueing again so an account-wide penalty will mean they cannot touch the GF for dungeons or BGs or even enter Cyrodil until the timer rounds out for the account. They can still do their crafting writs or enjoy catching up with the latest DLC zone story.

Number 3 is the best suggestion, but it's still not a great one. Make the penalties too great and you punish players who leave for viable reasons, such as the dungeon bugging or having a rude group. Plus, leaving the lengthier DLC dungeons would still be better for time even if the punishment was increased.

#2 is probably more viable. People already call having DLC giving you access to sets P2W. ZoS lets them there. No reason not to let 'em do the same here.

Any reason is "viable" as it successfully works for them to leave a group.

If we want to talk about reasonable reasons or very much justifiable, then I expect most of them would also warrant a sense of not really caring about the lockout as they are focused on something else.

I am all for offering a greater reward for completing a daily when it is a DLC if, and only if, it is based on a player's access to DLC dungeons. Heck, I have suggested that we should be able to opt-in or out of including DLCs in doing the random daily and offer a greater reward such as a gold level if a player opts into including DLCs into the random. That gold level reward would have to somehow scale though.

Amottica

ccfeeling wrote: »

Bug - You que , you got a group , then you blue screen , usually you will be removed by the group member when you back to the game .

So , you have to pay 20 mins penalty , suggest longer and account wide , really ?

This is not a case of the player quitting the group and it is not extremely common. Sure, things happen but a DC or a crash is rare.

Xenite

colossalvoids wrote: »

Easiest partial fix would be less people spreading a word how those are "impossible", most of the times people just afraid of something they were told being too difficult or broken which might not be the case for a lot of folks who have never even tried em.

Honestly, I think it has very little to do with this. Virtually every single time it happens to me it's a faux healer/tank that insta bails on load in. They just want something with quick turn around and DLC dungeons tend to be longer and more involved. So they bail, jump on another toon and rinse and repeat.

Dungeon bail penalty needs to be account wide.

They should also do a basic gear/stat/skill check for healers and tanks. Seen so many fake tanks that didn't even bother to slot a taunt and healers who couldn't keep someone up on a world boss.

FrancisCrawford

bmnoble wrote: »

Or you could go another route incentivize people to queue for specific DLC dungeons offering specific rewards for each dungeon that change daily for example:

3 DLC dungeons each day get a completion bonus separate from the random dungeon rewards, encouraging people to queue for those specific dungeons increasing the number of people actually wanting to run those dungeons.

Rewards could be transmute stones, extra weapon/jewelry drops, a guaranteed motif drop, undaunted keys, etc.. mix and match the rewards give people a reason to go back to those specific dungeons make them worth the extra time it takes to complete them.

While keeping it to a set number of dungeons a day rather then all of them offering rewards at once so people can't just pick an easy DLC dungeon to do over and over for the rewards alone tie the quantity of the rewards to the difficulty of the dungeons with higher rewards for Vet and HM clears.

Exclude the base game dungeons from the extra reward rotation.

So basically, you want to beef up the pledge system?

FrancisCrawford

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

I know this will be unpopular but...

But you will never get me to run Lair of Maarselok on a daily random no matter how much you punish me. I will quit it every single time. And if the punishment is extreme like "no dungeons for 24 hours" then I will just stop playing ESO for the next 24 hours.

Right now they use the random queue to fill missing spots for people who want to run those awful dungeons. Instead of forcing randoms in there, they should just do a bonus for dungeons. For example, one DLC dungeon a day gets the "bonus" marker and if you queue directly for that dungeon you get double drops the first time you run it or something like that.

They try to do this with pledges but I don't think it is enough to incentivize people.

They keep making dungeons longer and harder with more secret bosses and all this additional junk. I hate it. It just makes having ESO+ worse with every new dungeon pack they release.

TL;DR: Get rid of DLC dungeons from the random queue, make one DLC dungeon a day the "bonus" DLC dungeon where you get double drops. That way people who need to work on their DLC dungeons will always have a chance.

With the number of DLC dungeons, there should at this point be at least 2 DLC pledges per day anyway.

Good idea to give DLC pledges double drops. Also or instead, they could have all the benefits of a random daily.

Frankly, I'd be happy if they just cancelled the random dailies, and instead had more pledges with better rewards. And those better rewards should include double drops, as gear farmers are perhaps the top intended beneficiaries of the random dungeon incentive.

Better chests are another way of giving better drops, and incidentally would offer a little additional benefit to antiquarians.

renne

Amottica wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Bug - You que , you got a group , then you blue screen , usually you will be removed by the group member when you back to the game .

So , you have to pay 20 mins penalty , suggest longer and account wide , really ?

This is not a case of the player quitting the group and it is not extremely common. Sure, things happen but a DC or a crash is rare.

It's all well and good until we get One Of Those Patches where the game is unstable and people are dc-ing left right and centre and suddenly your heavy handed punishment for people "abandoning" a dungeon and not getting to use the GF for a day means everyone is, instead, complaining about the heavy handed punishment meted out because people complained about people leaving DLC dungeons, instead of queuing again.

Pevey

If the penalties were increased, and if they did not apply in the case of a crash or disconnection, then you would see people start hitting Alt +F4 instead of leaving group. I know I would.

I think the system as is works and is balanced. No matter how much penalty you impose, you are not going to be able to force someone to carry you if they don't want to/don't have the time to right at that moment. If the penalties are stiffer, more people will just leave the game for the night and go do something else, and ZOS knows this.

Attempting to rope people in would encourage people to queue for content/roles they know they are terrible at, and then they would think haha, you got randomly grouped with me, now you must be forced to carry me through this dungeon. Uh, no. Group finder will find you a group. It doesn't guarantee that it is a viable group for the content it randomly puts you in. Random dungeon incentives are just enough to get people to queue for randoms. They are not a guarantee that people will stay. Increasing penalties more would have the opposite effect of what some people hope, because even fewer people would take a chance on group finder instead of making a pre-made group.

TheGreatBlackBear

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I'd suggest a carrot and a stick approach.

Allow players to deselect some dungeons and still get random normal credit.

Increase the rewards on the the dungeons that generally take longer/are deselected.

Increase the rewards for running repeated random normals.

Gradually scale up the penalties for leaving and make them account wide. I'd suggest going after the rewards instead of going for account actions. If you leave enough in a period of time, your transmute rewards across the entire game will be reduced and your loot drops from bosses will diminish until you complete enough without leaving.

Finally, I'd suggest adding a system where once per day you can Commend or Censure a player that is matched with you.

If you were Commended, you will be notified that someone Commended you and you might occasionally get a minor reward for it and if you are Censured you will not know but, it will be marked down for data analysis.

I want the commendation system just because it’s in FFXIV and it leads to so much shenanigans with begging for comms. I want that salt and popcorn here too in my queues.

xXSilverDragonXx

Three easy ways to fix this:

1. Better rewards for doing them.
2. Make them optional rather than forcing people who have plus into them.
3. Making it easier to learn mechanics would also be helpful because frankly, few people know some of them and even fewer give a darn about explaining even if you ask. This makes DLC a pure headache.

It's not because they are difficult though a few even on easy can be a bit more challenging. It's that too many are stupidly long because ESO equates quantity with quality when actually some of the longer ones suffer for being stupidly long.

What ESO needs to learn is that seas of mobs do not make dungeons better. They make them tedious.

What they need to learn is that the highlight of all DLC dungeons will always be more interesting bosses.

And probably what would help is to provide very clear clues to the mechanics since people don't want to explain or don't know them well enough. Maybe 5% of players would bother to look mechanics up.

Thus, DLC is essential designed to fail because they are often too long and have mechanics that people don't understand or have no desire to explain to others. Some players have zero desire to learn them.. Couple that with one shots and possibly fake tank or fake healers and you will have many people quitting them. Then good luck if you get a replacement. Especially for tanks. But even for DPS these days, the wait can be horrendous. And most DLC do need two DPS because the majority of player are not high DPS players and with all the neverending nerfs, they become worse with each 'tuning'.

Will ESO ever learn? Likely not. So DLCs will become more and more tedious and more player will continue to leave these dungeons as each year passes.

What needs to be done to improve normal DLC dungeons?

1.Remove one shots.
2. Remove endless unnecessary corridors of mobs.
3. Provide a way to learn mechanics within the game (talking NPCs are still not good enough as I have witnessed because I think many players keep volume off or might be listening to something else).
4. For normal, provide more relistic expectations of DPS that should be required to kill bosses in a reasonable amount of time. The average player has gotten weaker with the consistent nerfs. It is the smaller percentage is capable of high damage as this game has a large base of casual players that don't concern themseves with dps, bis gear, or even bothering with rotations or using dummies.

stevenyaub16_ESO

Easiest solution is just to improve the replacement finder.

A better one is to split the dungeons into 2 tiers (regular and DLC) and give different rewards for both, but both count towards daily random, 10 stones for normal and 15 for DLC or something like that

Iselin

The only thing that needs fixing, and it needs it badly, is for them to fix whatever the hell is wrong with their group finder tool that only works when you queue solo or with 4 for dungeons.

When someone leaves a dungeon the group finder goes into "2 or 3 queued together" mode and takes forever to find a replacement. It's obviously bugged, has been that way for months now and no one who can fix it seems to care.

xXSilverDragonXx

Iselin wrote: »

The only thing that needs fixing, and it needs it badly, is for them to fix whatever the hell is wrong with their group finder tool that only works when you queue solo or with 4 for dungeons.

When someone leaves a dungeon the group finder goes into "2 or 3 queued together" mode and takes forever to find a replacement. It's obviously bugged, has been that way for months now and no one who can fix it seems to care.

Closing in on a decade of this group finder tool being active and buggy. I feel that expecting them to fix is has become an unrealistic expectation.

Xenite

Iselin wrote: »

The only thing that needs fixing, and it needs it badly, is for them to fix whatever the hell is wrong with their group finder tool that only works when you queue solo or with 4 for dungeons.

When someone leaves a dungeon the group finder goes into "2 or 3 queued together" mode and takes forever to find a replacement. It's obviously bugged, has been that way for months now and no one who can fix it seems to care.

Me and my wife have tried to use dungeon finder as a group... I think it worked once. Every other time one of us will get the que pop and it would never show up for the other person and would just time out. I reported the issue over a year ago and as far as I know it's never been fixed.

ZharaX

When I queue up for dungeons and experience people leaving instantly, 97% of the times are because group consists of low levelled players, ~ < cp400.

Yes! This is most annoying... Me myself are cp1980 and play these dungeons as a healer, and as another post last month pointed out with low levels and leaving players I personally would not leave..

Instead we end up doing the dungeons 3 people and I act as tank to my best ability while having to heal the others
This is just a mantra I have, don't freaking leave because of the fact a few low levveled players enter your group!

What I have noticed, is that it's mostly tanks that leave, and the tanks are "nearly" impossible to obtain when qeueu'ing

Tra_Lalan

I think the main problem is that people stopped playing the game, and are only "earning rewards". That is why they rush through dungeons, leave those that are longer, que with fake roles, run like crazy from dolmen to dolmen and so on. They just want this thing at the end, with the least cost possible.

I think that in the end they are cheating themselfes. If you que for random dungeons just for rewards, you're littelary wasting some of your life for those xp and transmutes. If you que to have fun and play the game, then whatever you find in this random que will suite you.

NordSwordnBoard

..

Amottica wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Bug - You que , you got a group , then you blue screen , usually you will be removed by the group member when you back to the game .

So , you have to pay 20 mins penalty , suggest longer and account wide , really ?

This is not a case of the player quitting the group and it is not extremely common. Sure, things happen but a DC or a crash is rare.

Rare or common as it may be, the system is punishing someone who did nothing wrong. Currently you can go do a BG or use another toon for dailies and come back to the kicked one. If the game prevented me from playing the way I want on my whole account because the game malfunctioned - I might stop playing out of frustration and start making angry forum posts lol.

Sometimes you have to log in and out to fix the chat system, or remove permanent debuffs. What if you want to leave the group to get your tank, to fill that vacated spot and open one up for a DD from your guild? I've done this many times to help friends and guildies, and you want to prevent me from doing that? The account wide ban will never happen for this reason alone. How do you rearrange a group on the last boss? Vote kick not having the penalty won't solve it, any evil doers will just afk until booted from any dungeon they don't want to do.

The best way forward is rearranging the carrots on the sticks.

Riptide

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

I think the main problem is that people stopped playing the game, and are only "earning rewards". That is why they rush through dungeons, leave those that are longer, que with fake roles, run like crazy from dolmen to dolmen and so on. They just want this thing at the end, with the least cost possible.

I think that in the end they are cheating themselfes. If you que for random dungeons just for rewards, you're littelary wasting some of your life for those xp and transmutes. If you que to have fun and play the game, then whatever you find in this random que will suite you.

Hah, I have a real thing about folks who queue as fake tanks/healers, huge pet peeve.

I also see you joined relatively recently. I assure you that once you’ve been here the better part of a decade and done the content that long, and leveled over ten characters to 50 that you may have a different approach to some of it and the speed with which you wish to traverse it 🙂

Riptide

ZharaX wrote: »

What I have noticed, is that it's mostly tanks that leave, and the tanks are "nearly" impossible to obtain when qeueu'ing

I’m a tank main, and never left a dungeon over someone’s level/cp.

I do however leave sometime when particularly obnoxious players pull everything in sight and whatnot and make what should be chill into a frantic soup sandwich. I wonder how many times someone in the group thinks its because they are low level rather than behavior, but try maining a tank and you’ll see what I mean.

etchedpixels

Riptide wrote: »

I also see you joined relatively recently. I assure you that once you’ve been here the better part of a decade and done the content that long, and leveled over ten characters to 50 that you may have a different approach to some of it and the speed with which you wish to traverse it 🙂

Once you've been doing them for a couple of years it does get hard to remember how it felt the first time.

To me there are three big problems

- fake tanks/healers - especially for DLC. Because if you've got a weak DLC group they won't finish the DLC (or a few non DLC) like that
- random groups without the experience/knowledge. You can often tell 5 minutes in that they'll never do the mechanics needed and with no PC voice chat won't figure it out. There's just not point staying whatever the penalty.
- the rewards are very skewed. I get the same transmutes for normal fungal grotto (2mins 45 secs - fits Ace of Spades nicely), darkshade 1 (5 mins (Overkill) including quest hand in miniboss) and fang lair (fun but easily an hour with a low experience group).

For many of the base dungeons you can hold a newbie group together given one strong player, sometimes two but even in base game dungeons if you've got two people who just blow everyone up in CoH II or don't know the altar mechanic in WS II, the chains in FG II etc then if they won't listen or don't share a language at all (not entirely unknown on the EU server), it's just not going to work.

Riptide

It really comes down to what a lot of folks don’t want to hear - but if you want to take in the content at your own pace, whatever that is - avoid the queues. It is a lot easier to join a guild and whip up a group suited to their own desired pace than most obstinate folks think.

Genuine tanks and healers are by their nature service oriented folks, but that doesn’t mean they are floormats. They have to look after their own self well being, and that means certain boundaries and thresholds for behavior, and limits to how much carrying they can do. After the 50th time or so zoning in and seeing your team wildly flailing against all the mobs, dying, not responding to chat requests to please stop doing X, and can you please do X, etc - you have to learn for your own well being that there are times you must walk.

And be ok with that being misinterpreted as having a thing against low cp players or whatever.

kindred

I'm a healer and I can tell you that I leave instantly when I see the "tank" has 25k and low cp. If the tank is ok and we proceed, I can tell on the first trash pull if the dungeon group will be successful or not. If not, I leave. The dungeons are long and I'm not going to waste my time if the group is having probs killing adds.

z32

I totally disagree with punishing player for quitting dungeons. Most do it because of previous negative experience, so they know it will not end well. The real problem is that dungeons are not balanced (not just DLC/non DLC but even some base ones are worse then some DLC ones). Some time ago I was a tank in Darkshade caverns 2 (normal random PUG) with very low CP levels DDs and healer. So last boss was killing them non-stop. My build is real tank with low DPS, so it would take eternity to kill last boss, so I quit, we fail dungeon. Guess what, next time I see same low CP group for this dungeon, I quit right away since I know we will fail at the end. You want punish me for that? If my healer (pure healer build) does 30% damage in a group, I am not suppose to quit? I can call such DDs fake ones in this case, I should be punished because I do not want to run dungeon with them?
So the real problem is this unbalance in dungeons and obscure / unclear mechanics that wipe group if a player does not know it and this is high risk in a PUG, that's why majority of players quit, they do not want to run dungeon that will take eternity to finish or even fail completely with current group.

SilverBride

One problem is that players who spent money for ESO+ and/or also spent money purchasing DLC's are being forced into content that they do not enjoy, while those who didn't spend any money get to skip it.

Another is the fact that they continue to make DLC dungeons more difficult and time consuming even though Rich Lambert himself stated that players will do the thing that is the most efficient for their time. They know this isn't what players want yet they continue to do it.

Punishing players for not wanting to spend an hour or more in one dungeon that they don't even enjoy is not reasonable. These players are not doing anything wrong for wanting to enjoy content that they choose.

Jimboo84

People should more use the Specific Dungeon button and so they can exclude the longer DLC dungeons.
Me I've all DLC's but not always that much time, so I exclude the longer dungeons.

People should also make more friends to use people to join in more easily. The Random player/Random dungeon system isn't good. Same applies for Battlegrounds when people are joining and leaving

Agenericname

SilverBride wrote: »

One problem is that players who spent money for ESO+ and/or also spent money purchasing DLC's are being forced into content that they do not enjoy, while those who didn't spend any money get to skip it.

Another is the fact that they continue to make DLC dungeons more difficult and time consuming even though Rich Lambert himself stated that players will do the thing that is the most efficient for their time. They know this isn't what players want yet they continue to do it.

Punishing players for not wanting to spend an hour or more in one dungeon that they don't even enjoy is not reasonable. These players are not doing anything wrong for wanting to enjoy content that they choose.

The punishement, if you want to call it that, isnt for not wanting to do the content. Its for agreeing to do it with up to 3 random people then bailing and wasting their time when it seems too hard.

There's already a way to avoid dungeons that we dont want to do. Use specific. The problem with that is that we dont get the bonus, which is what this is really about. We queue up specifically for the rewards then leave our team hanging when its not easy. Its not very considerate.