Lucidilusions wrote: »
You also you seem to think I believe "worse players" will be brought in to trials for just because the damage is lower.
I need a sanity check that both your statements don't mean the same thing.Lucidilusions wrote: »
What I did say is that trials might be able to fill damage spots with people who have not mastered LA Weaving when needed vs being stuck only being able to choose from a pool of players that have. The assumption that these players are "worse" than the others appears to be something you came to all on your own.
What am I not understanding about your statements? Players who have not mastered LA Weaving are likely put out less damage than ones who have and so are objectively "worse". Sure you might have better situational awareness etc but the issue at hand is damage. That's not an assumption or opinion or personal prejudice. It's not meant to be insulting, it's just a fact. Even a 100k dps player is "worse" than a 130k dps player.
So you have this belief that this patch will somehow lead to raid groups lowering the dps requirement because? You wrote a whole essay and never addressed that point. People don't care if you LA weave or not. They care about the raw number you put out. If you can somehow hit their required number without weaving, that's good. If you weave perfectly but don't use the proper skills at all or have good gear, you won't hit the required number. No one cares why you cannot hit the number, they care if you do. You seem to be convinced that this will change despite "having no skin in the game". If damage is lowered across the board as others seem to be reporting, more players will be further from the benchmark required by groups. Please read this and understand it, this has been the main point everyone in this thread is trying to get across to you.
Perhaps a concrete example would help. Let's say you need 80k dps to join a certain raid group.Player A has 'mastered' LA weaving. Currently they do 100k dps.
Player B has 'not mastered' LA weaving. Currently they do 60k dps.
Situation 1) The damage nerf is percentage based, let's say 10%.Player A now does 90k dps.
Player B now does 54k dps.
Situation 2) The damage nerf is a fixed chunk for all players, regardless of skills or gear. Everyone loses 20k dps.Player A now does 80k dps.
Player B now does 40k dps.
Can you show the rest of the class which player will get into the raid group in each situation? That's right, Player A every time. Player B will not have a higher chance of being asked to fill in a raid group. Arguably, they actually have a lower chance.
Lucidilusions wrote: »I'm not asking this sarcastically, I honestly don't get a lot of the anger over the weaving changes. The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons.
The problem here is that these changes don't open up end-game content for more people.
All Damage Over Time abilities have been reduced by 33%, meaning every single build that uses any form of DoTs is going to see a damage decrease. It doesn't matter if you're a sweaty endgamer or someone who just started playing ESO 3 weeks ago: their DoT damage is going down.
Most DoTs will now tick every two seconds instead of every one second as it is now. This means your back bar weapon enchants will proc off of weapon skills, such as wall of elements and endless hail, half as frequently. That's an additional damage decrease. Also, in fights where bosses and mobs are highly mobile (Ex. Z'maja, Olms, Bahsei, Reef Guardian, etc.) they will take less ticks of damage from your AoE DoTs as these enemies will move out of them before the full duration may expire. As you move towards vet and hardmodes, players are forced to move more and more, making AoE DoTs even less effective, further reducing damage.
DPS who are practiced and knowledgable and already have copious expereince will be able to manage and adapt. DPS who are learning and are being introduced to the endgame content? Good luck, the learning curve just got significantly steeper.
[...]
I wanna add that because ZOS has made "dots more worthwhile in longer fights" the meta is ironically going to shift into a direction where you are trying to have as many dots up as possible... which makes for harder rotations... which means that the game has become more difficult, not less.
I've already seen a few people play that way on PTS. It looks like there are currently two schools of thought regarding this. Either you use a dot then a spammable and then the next dot, or you use all of your dots, then only spammables and 20s later you are going to stress over getting all of your dots reapplied at the right time. Eitherway, that's the opposite of an easy rotation.
ZOS could have just nerfed light attacks and buffed main spammable damage to keep damage the same assuming perfect weaving. That will keep the ceiling where it is and buff the floor because LA don't matter that much anymore. That's literally all they had to do. Buffing buff durations is also good, but touching the dots was a mistake and that they even came up with this idea tells me that the combat team doesn't understand combat
Shout, Runners, Poison Phase, Lunar Phase, Ghosts, Wall, Shield Phase, Chains, Sacrifices, Blood Sacrifices, Fleshy Bois, Purge, Clones, Infusers.. You'll have to forgive me but this is not a complete list.FantasticFreddie wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »Whenever a development company adjust a game to be inline with their initial design the elite players complain because now they have to do mechanic instead of simply by passing them with higher damage output. What will probably happen is more players needing to be revived because mechanic now become a factor in completing content.
This isn’t the first time I see this type of change in game.
What mechanics, exactly, are currently being bypassed?
FantasticFreddie wrote: »Can you name them?
FantasticFreddie wrote: »What dungeons or trials are they in?
FantasticFreddie wrote: »Who is bypassing them?
...and the funny part is all the hardcore players that were screaming for overland to be harder get their wish.
Lucidilusions wrote: »I'm not asking this sarcastically, I honestly don't get a lot of the anger over the weaving changes. The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons.,
Lucidilusions wrote: »What I did say is that trials might be able to fill damage spots with people who have not mastered LA Weaving when needed vs being stuck only being able to choose from a pool of players that have. The assumption that these players are "worse" than the others appears to be something you came to all on your own.
In the overland content, it will be harder and the funny part is all the hardcore players that were screaming for overland to be harder get their wish.
starkerealm wrote: »Shout, Runners, Poison Phase, Lunar Phase, Ghosts, Wall, Shield Phase, Chains, Sacrifices, Blood Sacrifices, Fleshy Bois, Purge, Clones, Infusers.. You'll have to forgive me but this is not a complete list.FantasticFreddie wrote: »MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »Whenever a development company adjust a game to be inline with their initial design the elite players complain because now they have to do mechanic instead of simply by passing them with higher damage output. What will probably happen is more players needing to be revived because mechanic now become a factor in completing content.
This isn’t the first time I see this type of change in game.
What mechanics, exactly, are currently being bypassed?FantasticFreddie wrote: »Can you name them?
I mean, if you insist, they are now, all named Steve.FantasticFreddie wrote: »What dungeons or trials are they in?
Rockgrove, Asylum Sanctorium, Aetherian Archive, Hel Ra Citadel, Sanctum Ophidia, Sunspire, Maw of Lorkhaj, Cloudrest, Halls of Fabricatoin, Kyne's Aegis, Axe Condominium, Banished Cells 1, Banished Cells 2, Blackheart Haven, Blessed Crucible, City of Ash, City of Ash 2, Crypt of Hearts, Crypt of Hearts 2, Darkshade Caverns, Darkshade Caverns 2, Direfrost Keep, Elden Hollow, Elden Hollow 2, Fungal Grotto, Fungal Grotto 2.Selene's Web, Spindleclutch, Spindleclutch 2, Tempest Island, Vaults of Madness (bonus points, burning past this will kill a party member), Volenfell, Wayrest Sewers, Wayrest Sewers 2, ICP, WGT, Cradle of Spiders, Ruins of Mazzatun, Bloodroot Forge, Falkreath Hold, Fang Lair, Scalecaller Peak, March of Sacrifices, Moonhunter Keep, Depths of Malatar (bonus points, if you don't burn past some of these mechanics, the encounter punishes you), Frostvault, Moongrave Fane, Icereach, Unhallowed Grave, Castle Thorn (I think? Not 100% sure), Stone Garden, Black Drake Villa, The Cauldron, The Dread Cellar, RPB, DSA, Maelstrom, and Vateshran.FantasticFreddie wrote: »Who is bypassing them?
Dude, you should know, naming and shaming is against the rules.
In the overland content, it will be harder and the funny part is all the hardcore players that were screaming for overland to be harder get their wish.
I tell you, comments like these are seriously what simply has folks shrugging off the forums.
Screaming? Come on.
And seriously, the overwhelming consensus for years has been to make an optional harder mode. Optional. Because the majority of “hardcore” are in fact reasonable people perfectly happy to compromise.
Now folks that post loaded things like this do rather make you wonder what is the point.
In the overland content, it will be harder and the funny part is all the hardcore players that were screaming for overland to be harder get their wish.
I tell you, comments like these are seriously what simply has folks shrugging off the forums.
Screaming? Come on.
And seriously, the overwhelming consensus for years has been to make an optional harder mode. Optional. Because the majority of “hardcore” are in fact reasonable people perfectly happy to compromise.
Now folks that post loaded things like this do rather make you wonder what is the point.
Us vs. Them.
Lucidilusions wrote: »I'm not asking this sarcastically
Lucidilusions wrote: »The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons.
Lucidilusions wrote: »I know a lot of people have spent time learning how to weave, but does the change really do anything to affect you?
Lucidilusions wrote: »The only difference I can see is that you may now be able to fill a spot with a person who wasn't able to master weaving to accomplish a task vs being locked in to only being able to include DPS that could master it.
Lucidilusions wrote: »I'm like, "Umm why?" why would you leave just because more people will be able to do higher damage now, is it an ego thing?
FantasticFreddie wrote: »VMoL I'll grant you-- just regular vMoL and a super sweaty hm team rarely do runners. Any non-sweaty hm team, or a team that wants to get DD all run the backyard however.
MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »Whenever a development company adjust a game to be inline with their initial design the elite players complain because now they have to do mechanic instead of simply by passing them with higher damage output. What will probably happen is more players needing to be revived because mechanic now become a factor in completing content.
This isn’t the first time I see this type of change in game.
starkerealm wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »VMoL I'll grant you-- just regular vMoL and a super sweaty hm team rarely do runners. Any non-sweaty hm team, or a team that wants to get DD all run the backyard however.
This is probably the best example of what you're not seeing. There are entire phases of Rakhat's fight that the community treat as wipe mechanics, when, they're not.
The content was designed with the expectation that players would go through multiple lunar phases... good luck seeing that happen at all. And, skipping Runners is not a super sweaty thing, one or two pad burns are, but a three pad burn (which skips runners) has become remarkably common.
Now, go back and look at that spaghetti. Note that there are specific dungeons that are not listed. That wasn't accidental. I was reading down a list, but I was going from memory which ones have DPS burn bypasses. There may be a few errors, like, if you told me that I was thinking of a mechanic that got cut for one, okay, could have happened.
Also, I have neither the time, nor inclination, to list every skip. VMoL has three that I'm sure of, and I think five potential skips. That's one trial. Something like VoM has three specific ones that are full on skips, and a few edge cases.
So far as it goes, I've been in a run of vSCP with Rich where we pushed Za'an to skip her poison wedges, shield bash, and flame beam, might have bypassed flame wave, did bypass lemonades on an earlier boss, and Doyle's Balls, I think we bypassed ice shards, but I'm not sure of that that last one. With Za'an, the one thing you can't skip is ice phase. Do the math, that's seven mechanics for that specific dungeon. There's over fifty dungeons. Conservatively, there are probably between 200 and 250 mechanics that can be burnt past in endgame content. Ironically, some of these mechanics are things that your average player isn't even going to be aware of. It is almost literally impossible to clear Spindle2 without accidentally burning past a mechanic.
So, who does that? Literally everyone who clears that dungeon on vet.
Theoretically makes everyone do less damage so the Barrier of entry is technically higher lol