No Sarcasms intended - Why so upset?

Lucidilusions

I'm not asking this sarcastically, I honestly don't get a lot of the anger over the weaving changes. The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons. I know a lot of people have spent time learning how to weave, but does the change really do anything to affect you? You will have some reduced damage, but you will still be doing trials right. You will still need to come up with strategies that allow you to beat the bosses and overcome whatever ZOS throws at you. The only difference I can see is that you may now be able to fill a spot with a person who wasn't able to master weaving to accomplish a task vs being locked in to only being able to include DPS that could master it.

Are DPS people afraid their spots are going to be given away? Is it just a principle thing of "I Work hard to get here, why should they be able to do it without the work! "? Is it a PVP thing (I Don't PVP so not sure how much weaving affects that)? Is it a gold thing, where people are afraid of losing the gold from being able to sell achievement spots? (There will always be people to buy these).

I honestly don't get it. Some posts are like "You are going to lose old-school players because of this change!". I'm like, "Umm why?" why would you leave just because more people will be able to do higher damage now, is it an ego thing?

Anyways, if anyone can honestly explain this to me in a nonsarcastic or condescending way I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

sbr32

You should do some research on what was actually in yesterday's Patch Notes and the results of those changes in game on the PTS. It is not the LA changes that most people are upset about.

WreckfulAbandon

Most PvPers could care less about the weaving changes. Some dont like DoT/HoT changes, others dont like the class changes. Some dont like the new Nocturnals Ploy set and its implications on the PvP meta but totally not shilling my poll 🐱‍👤

Arthtur

U clearly didnt see whats going on. LA nerfs are nothing compared to other changes.

NOBODY is getting buffed.
EVERYONE is getting nerfed. Even ppl playing only overland.

DagenHawk

This is what baffles me...

We have one Stream Team member, he helps us with awesome builds and I really respect the guy, but. He tells us he is not a Casual (even though he understands the meta front back and sideways) then goes into a 45 minuet rant on how boring everything will be and how we all want to spend hours dialing in our character (How does he know what everyone wants? He knows what a very small percentage of Hardcore Raiders want.)

He veers off into this secondary diatribe about not everyone should experience everything and ZoS doing this will change all that (Like we are just going to prance into rock grove and one shot everything) and that ZoS making things more accessible will make the company more money, but that's bad, because it will change things for hard core raiders...

But...he's a casual. and 10 seconds more on a rotation means boring combat for everyone just because it does and everyone agrees with him.

So Zenimax is suppose to listen to a small group of people that spend Jack all because they know what's best for everyone.

It's that sort of arrogance and entitlement that folks don't like about hardcore Raiders...one could argue that Casuals are entitled, but honestly that group spends more plays longer and experiences less...so it really doesn't hold water.

I'm not going to speak for the dev team but I understand where they are going and why.

Stamicka

Part of the reason players are upset is because ZOS has been pretty openly anti-competitive player for quite some time. Pay attention to some of their language and actions towards competitive PvP or PVE players. This in itself is frustrating. What if your idea of having fun is to optimize, to try hard, and to excel at the combat system? Well ZOS keeps on taking away from these types of players. We’ve seen proc sets added, animation canceling changes, content nerfs, and crazy ability changes. Often times the only reason for these changes is to “close the gap”. But what’s wrong with being a good player? Why does ZOS keep trying to nerf them?

RPGOverlord

To be honest, I think it's because a lot of midgamers/endgamers put a lot of time into progressive teams to do vet/hard mode trials, this feels like it's going against accessibility.
The patch notes didn't make mention of any nerfs to the last few trials.
You need around 95k to do the HM of rockgrove, now the roof has dropped from 130k to around 100k, this means you need an optimal APM (actions per minute) of 95%, compared to the 72% it was previously, thus excluding a wide range of people from the harder content and making them feel it's out of reach.
They need to counter these changes with nerfs to the trials, there just hasn't been any acknowledgement of this that I'm aware of.

morrowjen

I know the devs claim this will help others but please can anyone explain to me how nerfing my dps helps a single person? The truth is it doesn't.

Riptide

*chuckle, I think Id probably be chucked into the hardcore raider bin…and when I think of how long both my wife and I have been subscribed and the embarrassing amount of crowns I’ve purchased…..the number of bug reports Ive written from the preclosed beta on, etc etc

And then someone on the forums with authority saying how we don’t spend jack, and how entitled we all are and all this stuff.

I feel like maybe, just maybe some folks might, just might not have things as figured completely out as they think.

Ratzkifal

Well, mainly because people care about the game a lot. If they didn't care, they would uninstall and play something else. But people do care and they want the game to go into a direction that is most-importantly fun to play. For PvP this usually means having the next patch be more balanced than the current one, and for performance to improve.
For PvE this means being able to complete the same content you could complete before with the same amount of effort required or less.
But often it's not that simple and there are more factors at play. Right now it's all about the feel of combat, the flow. ZOS wants to nerf the ceiling of player because they believe the best players are too strong right now and in their attempt to achieve that, they shift everything around, disrupting comfort of play for a lot of people by messing up rotations and leaving every player to figure out how to play their class again, but not in the fun and exciting way of discovering something new - there is nothing new, just a lot of nerfs and what's left.

And if we consider that most of the changes ZOS is introducing now have already been introduced into the game at some point before, it feels like ZOS is not actually making any progress towards their goals/plan/vision, which frustrates all the players who do have a vision of what balance should be like. To a lot of people it feels like ZOS is just playing them for fools and that's why people are upset.

LeBrenn

You're falling for the narrative that the problem lies with a certain group of players and said changes are here to save you.

Problem is, as said before by others, how turning the game upside down and nerfing EVERYONE is helping you?

etchedpixels

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Most PvPers could care less about the weaving changes. Some dont like DoT/HoT changes, others dont like the class changes. Some dont like the new Nocturnals Ploy set and its implications on the PvP meta but totally not shilling my poll 🐱‍👤

The weaving changes have a risk given how hard they've been applied at this point because we risk moving into a world where the optimal PvP play is everyone in permablock, and the only thing you'd weave is bash. It's kind of amusing because on a real re-enactment battlefield that's pretty much how it works except we have spears, lots of spears.

The DoT/HoT changes are I think problematic for PvP. In some ways they just change the deployment particularly in things like large keep battles, but it's also a massive boost for ball groups as they'll not have to worry about DoT at all any more providing they don't stand still like lemons.

sunshineflame

Go back in time to when weaving was "made" mandatory with the LA buffs. All people did then was complain about how easy damage was now for "plebs". It doesn't matter what ZoS does...this community for forum warriors complains about everything, even free things like daily log in rewards.

chessalavakia_ESO

Lucidilusions wrote: »

I'm not asking this sarcastically, I honestly don't get a lot of the anger over the weaving changes. The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons. I know a lot of people have spent time learning how to weave, but does the change really do anything to affect you? You will have some reduced damage, but you will still be doing trials right. You will still need to come up with strategies that allow you to beat the bosses and overcome whatever ZOS throws at you. The only difference I can see is that you may now be able to fill a spot with a person who wasn't able to master weaving to accomplish a task vs being locked in to only being able to include DPS that could master it.

Are DPS people afraid their spots are going to be given away? Is it just a principle thing of "I Work hard to get here, why should they be able to do it without the work! "? Is it a PVP thing (I Don't PVP so not sure how much weaving affects that)? Is it a gold thing, where people are afraid of losing the gold from being able to sell achievement spots? (There will always be people to buy these).

I honestly don't get it. Some posts are like "You are going to lose old-school players because of this change!". I'm like, "Umm why?" why would you leave just because more people will be able to do higher damage now, is it an ego thing?

Anyways, if anyone can honestly explain this to me in a nonsarcastic or condescending way I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

As far as I am aware ZOS, has not adjusted the amount of hit points in most content.

The changes on the PTS appear to be reducing the damage pretty much across the board.

This produces a situation where players that currently are barely completing content will find themselves unable to do so.

ZOS is trying to sell the update as increasing accessibility but at this stage the update is not delivering on that.

ZOS also isn't exactly as anti-weave as they might be trying to sell themselves as they are changing one of the more popular spammables to work better with weaving and reducing it's damage:

Puncturing Strikes:

This ability and its morphs now hit 3 times over a channel time of 800ms, rather than 4 times over 1 second.
Implemented new animations and visual effects to match the attack cadence.
Reduced the cost of this ability and the Puncturing Sweeps morph to 2295, down from 2700.
Reduced the overall damage of the primary attack by approximately 21% since this ability no longer incurs a DPS loss while weaving within the 1 second global cooldown window.
Increased the damage of the Area of Effect hits by approximately 7%.
Reduced the duration of the snare to 0.5 seconds per hit, down from 1 second.

Some people also like weaving because of either the visuals of doing it or the feeling of doing so.

Yeah, some people just like weaving because it makes them feel special/better than others but, it feels like ZOS is trying to scapegoat them to push unpopular content.

MythicaLMeddLer

The explanation from zos for change after change has been described as, “lowering the ceiling, raising the floor” for quite some time now. It’s cliché, after every change the people who hit 100k still hit 100k and the floor gets no higher. Just as in real life, people who put in the effort to learn overcome and adapt, and the people who have no interest rarely progress. The lower the ceiling gets, the lower the floor will go. Don’t get it twisted, if a hardcore raid group loses a dps that knows how to weave, they are still most likely not going to replace them with a dps that doesn’t know how to weave. You still get more damage from weaving, it may not be as much as it were before, but the numbers mean everything to hardcore raiders, and I imagine their still more likely to care about that now, maybe even more.

TaSheen

I can hardly wait to see how long it will take my new account main to kill Vandacia in Blackwood - since my main account main couldn't do it the first dozen times I tried. So by the time I get the new account main to Blackwood, I'll never be able to finish the quest line. My dps is already pretty low - doesn't even get close to 15k. And this patch is supposed to help how?

But I will refuse to pay for the house I love with crowns, ZOS. And yes, I will use Oakensoul even with the changes. I'm sure it will help some.

Maybe.

Destai

For me it’s two fold.

1.
Communication from ZOS. Once again we have a change that asks us to redo our entire playstyle, and rather than treating it delicately, we were talked down as a community. Rather than reading our reactions and then asking us to bear an open mind after we tested it, we were preemptively dismissed by leadership.

2.
No one is asking for this. No one is asking for all players to have their damage reduced. We just got a new expansion and many of us dove headfirst thinking they weren’t going wild and changing all the classes on top of general combat changes. It’s a massive amount of change fatigue coming from us and I for one don’t have confidence in what their direction is. They don’t communicate their long terms goals and don’t engage in discussion outside of the stream teams.

I only hope they really listen to the feedback this time, as this potentially will drive away casuals and veterans alike. I want this to succeed and have the game more accessible, I just don’t think their leadership is prepared to act on our feedback. I hope I’m wrong, and I would love for developers to come here and start demonstrating by the numbers why this is better.

Malkosha

After trying the changes on the PTS, I'm not sure I'm upset as much as I'm disappointed.

ESO is nerfing my damage across the board in certain situations. Longer Dot times makes Dot's all but useless except in a situations where you have enough up-time to get the benefit. This means that using Dot's in questing for instance, where you have what are mostly low level MOB's, is no longer worth it. That damage loss needs to be replaced with something else. Yes, I can see how the ease of expanding Dot up-time might perhaps help the Trial community by not having to constantly refresh Dot's so often, but I fail to see the advantage ... and instead see a disadvantage ... in regards to the rest of the game. If Dot's are used in your attacks for questing or even with groups of low-level MOB's, they are now close to useless.

Also, nerfing light and heavy attack damage to the point of almost being useless puts me in a position of having to spam something more substantial ... and resource intensive ... in an attempt to make up for the damage loss. So far, I can't make it quite work right. I may now be in a position where I have to change my play-style, gear and rotations to make up for this loss and while everything changes sooner or later, changes this drastic and all encompassing at a single time is, like I said, disappointing.

This doesn't mean I won't eventually come to a point where I can finagle my way around this, but I wondering if I should even try at this point.

Jaraal

Because we’re tired of all the yo-yo, directionless combat changes. ZOS themselves recognized that change fatigue was happening, and yet they continue to make wild swings with core combat functions.

We are essentially still in an eight year paid beta. Consistency does not exist in this version of Tamriel.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Light attack changes are whatever to me. But the timing changes, class changes, eviscerating nerfs to entire playstyles... yes, it will upset people. It will upset people when zos blames players and pits them against one another via divisive wording. It will upset people when they're shown once again this game has no vision. They'll be upset when more promises of no more sweeping changes from a year ago are broken once again. People are going to be upset. To not understand or accept that is quite unsympathetic. It's easy to tell people not to be upset until it's something that bothers you personally.

Myrddin1357

"The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons."

None of the changes in the patch notes achieves what is stated above - theoretically or otherwise. I play mostly with casual players who find any vet DLC trial very tough (most of them are in the 60K to 90K range currently on live). It takes months of prog attempts to get the first clear on a vet DLC trial. And even after clearing it once, it is 50-50 whether we get the clear again with trials like vSS or vCR.

The changes help no one and the reasons they are giving for these changes don't make much sense. I can see how reducing the gap between the very top end and the average player can make it better for ZOS to come up content in the future. But they are inflicting immediate pain on a great many mid level casual players who have worked very hard to meet certain threshold like 60K for some uncertain benefit in the future that we can't fully appreciate.

I find all forms of insults and hate directed towards anyone completely unacceptable. But I can easily understand why so many people are so unhappy with the totality of the changes that ZOS is planning on. Anyone who is currently working on moving up the vet ladder in trial will understand the reason for the unhappiness.

AlexanderDeLarge

Because these changes hurt the very people they were trying to help. Average DPS was anywhere from 20-30K and those who have perfected their weaving can easily hit 100-120K. Now with these changes the top end players with BiS gear are hitting 80-95K while the average is now hitting 15-22K.

They completely failed in their objective of leveling the playing field meanwhile the reason there's such a skill discrepancy between overland to veteran DLC and trials is due to a lack of a veteran overland where you go from being able to completely ignore mechanics to the game suddenly making them mandatory. It's playing two completely different games. I'd argue the "missing link" should absolutely be some sort of veteran overland difficulty scaling to introduce those players to the mechanics that they were able to ignore throughout their 50-100 hour leveling experience and is far more of a concern than "weaving" ever was. Even if they achieved their objective, which they didn't... Why is this taking priority over the missing connective tissue of the game that introduces players to mechanics rather than just throwing them in the deep end of the pool and telling anyone who wants to do veteran content 'sink or swim'? That in my opinion is far more egregious than the need for combat rebalancing.

I'm not saying I'm opposed to reworking the combat system but this was a half measure for something that requires a far more systemic rework and within the context of the skill gap which exists for a reason, is just outright ridiculous. Additionally, I find it a little troubling that ZOS is still being reactive rather than proactive in their approach to these problems when the game is almost ten years old. Doesn't seem like they have a vision for the game's combat experience at all.

SimonThesis

They nerfed everyone not just the ceiling. Used to be Dps was 25-135k, in the pts they changed that to about 10k-90k. This makes many people think the new trial trifectas will become unachievable.

spartaxoxo

Destai wrote: »

Rather than reading our reactions and then asking us to bear an open mind after we tested it

That's exactly what they asked....

Destai wrote: »

It’s a massive amount of change fatigue coming from us and I for one don’t have confidence in what their direction is. They don’t communicate their long terms goals and don’t engage in discussion outside of the stream teams.

Agree 1000%

renne

Lucidilusions wrote: »

The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons.

How? They've nerfed almost all DoTs in addition to the flat damage for LA and HA, which will ultimately reduce the entire DPS for everyone. How does that open up content - especially that content that's still very much as difficult on update 35 as it is on update 34 - to more players?

You will have some reduced damage, but you will still be doing trials right.

A lot of people who were aspiring to do trials will no longer be able to because DPS checks mean you need to be able to hit a certain level and if you can't because damage has been nerfed so thoroughly why would you even try?

You will still need to come up with strategies that allow you to beat the bosses and overcome whatever ZOS throws at you.

If you can't do the damage for a DPS check you can't overcome it.

The only difference I can see is that you may now be able to fill a spot with a person who wasn't able to master weaving to accomplish a task vs being locked in to only being able to include DPS that could master it.

That's still not going to happen as the content is still as difficult. If anything it will go the other way, and now only people who can weave and do their rotation perfectly will be able to get a spot in a team.

Are DPS people afraid their spots are going to be given away?

No.

Is it just a principle thing of "I Work hard to get here, why should they be able to do it without the work! "?

No.

Is it a PVP thing (I Don't PVP so not sure how much weaving affects that)?

No.

Is it a gold thing, where people are afraid of losing the gold from being able to sell achievement spots? (There will always be people to buy these).

No.

why would you leave just because more people will be able to do higher damage now, is it an ego thing?

From everything I have seen on the PTS forum there has been nothing in the update to support that "more people will be able to do higher damage". Nerfs across the board to damage skills mean people as a whole will be doing less damage.

kargen27

"The changes theoretically opens up more end-game content to more players and reduce a wall that some people are unable to overcome for various reasons. I know a lot of people have spent time learning how to weave, but does the change really do anything to affect you? You will have some reduced damage, but you will still be doing trials right. You will still need to come up with strategies that allow you to beat the bosses and overcome whatever ZOS throws at you. The only difference I can see is that you may now be able to fill a spot with a person who wasn't able to master weaving to accomplish a task vs being locked in to only being able to include DPS that could master it."

Weaving has never been required to finish vet content. Most vet content can be done with 20K DPS if the group knows the mechanics. There might be a couple of DPS checks where 20K is iffy but it wouldn't take much more than that. What higher DPS does allow is skipping mechanics and doing faster runs. Groups that require higher DPS want the smooth quick runs but the high DPS isn't needed to complete the content.

MindOfTheSwarm

People are upset because build diversity is once more getting diluted down. This change leads to one play style. Spam your main skill for 20 seconds before reapply DoT’s. It’s BORING. They should have done the reverse and half the duration of dots but buff theirs damage per tick, meaning that players would have to decide which dots they want allowing for a more rapid play style while lowering overall DPS.

Also, it isn’t going to help new players get into endgame content at all. Good luck doing Maebroogha on vet. Go and try it after this patch and see if you have fun with it.
As for group content, guilds will still demand minimum DPS numbers only now they will be even more rigid, and they will not be lowered. Guaranteed.

spartaxoxo

Every single aspect of my play is heavily nerfed, and I am not an elite players. I am exactly the kind of the person they are targeting. I am currently generally competent at mechs (have dungeon HMs and Vet Arena completions, including some vet Arena Achievements). I have much higher damage than the average player, but not quite good enough to do later vet DLC Trials. I struggle to improve damage because practice is physically painful, but I do enough damage to even do some of the earlier vet DLC trials. For example, I've beaten the first boss of vKA. I'd have more group vet achievements under my belt most likely if I had broader access to groups, but I don't due to schedules generally being difficult for me. Thus if vet stuff was more generally Accessible, it would be easier for me to find a group I mesh with at a time I am actually free (found many I mesh with but often they are hard to play on schedule with) and get more vet content done.

I'm right there on that threshold between elite and upper middle but have hit an availability and skill wall, essentially. Making it hard to progress.

I'm exactly the player type they want to help. And I've had my entire playstyle gutted, and am expected to adapt to a playstyle that I'll do even worse at because it will exacerbate the pain issue.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna play less. Simple as that. Why should I bother trying anything difficult anymore. I'll login to get my TellTale walking sim fix and decorate my existing houses. But I won't be buying new house anytime soon or spending like I was. I won't play as much either. It's not gonna be worth it.

kevkj

Lucidilusions wrote: »

The only difference I can see is that you may now be able to fill a spot with a person who wasn't able to master weaving to accomplish a task vs being locked in to only being able to include DPS that could master it.

Can you explain to everyone why you think this will happen? Why will raid groups just magically accept a lower DPS next patch?

The DPS requirements aren't to arbitrarily gatekeep players for fear of being overwhelmed by the sheer number of potential participants. They are there as a means to reasonably guarantee a clear (short of having run the content with that player before and seeing how they handle it).

Pevey

kevkj wrote: »

Lucidilusions wrote: »

The only difference I can see is that you may now be able to fill a spot with a person who wasn't able to master weaving to accomplish a task vs being locked in to only being able to include DPS that could master it.

Can you explain to everyone why you think this will happen? Why will raid groups just magically accept a lower DPS next patch?

The DPS requirements aren't to arbitrarily gatekeep players for fear of being overwhelmed by the sheer number of potential participants. They are there as a means to reasonably guarantee a clear (short of having run the content with that player before and seeing how they handle it).

Especially since early PTS test parses are suggesting that rele/kinras/vma inferno will become the new BiS for every single class. Boring. And also--WAIT FOR IT-- ALL OF THESE REQUIRE PERFECT WEAVING.

Great job, ZOS. All of these meaningless nerfs, and they forgot to do the one thing they said they were trying to do, which is make weaving less important. They managed to make it MORE important.

Jaraal

morrowjen wrote: »

I know the devs claim this will help others but please can anyone explain to me how nerfing my dps helps a single person? The truth is it doesn't.

It will help the PvP troll tanks become even more unkillable. It will help the ball groups who will be able to continually refresh their Major and Minor buffs, while allowing them to burn down zergs and solo players faster and more efficiently.

Other than that, everybody loses.