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Thoughts from an End Game PVE Raid Lead

KingoftheTewks
KingoftheTewks
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I have been raid leading a core on PC NA since September of last year. We started out with getting Immortal Redeemer and are working on Planesbreaker now. We had the second highest score in rockgrove on NA last patch, and are very close to getting PB.

If a fraction of this pts patch hits live, it will probably kill my group. I don't say that lightly; this core and the players in it are a huge part of my life. I'm not sure we would even be able to clear Rockgrove hard mode anymore. That's right: we would go from clearing in under 25 minutes to not clearing at all.

The healing changes are absolutely abysmal for tanks who receive high DoT damage in the new trials. You can't have damage ticks hit every second and heals hit every 2 seconds. Tanks will live or die based on the RNG of how damage and healing ticks line up. I have a feeling the developers have never zoomed in on an LGM death recap on Bahsei hardmode to really understand this concept.

The damage nerfs will probably make it impossible to meet the DPS check on Xalvaka. Not only is raw damage down, but really long DoTs are just terrible for phased fights; for example, Xalvaka's shells only take about 10 seconds to kill currently. 20-30 second DoTs with low raw dps won't even be worth casting on shells, so we'll just slowly kill them with nothing but weak spammables. In vAS, Olms is unprotected for roughly 15 seconds. What's that extra 5-15 seconds of a DoT going to do while he takes no damage? Nothing.

I am begging ZoS to please pull the plug on these changes entirely. I don't think you understand the impact this will have, and haven't done the proper testing. Contrary to the many statements I've seen from casual players that "end game players will be fine", end game players will take a severe blow from this patch. It will likely kill the end game and you will lose all of your experienced PvE players. Please consider consulting with some veteran raiders on changes; we have the knowledge to properly evaluate your ideas.

Finally, please stop the hostility toward players. We're not your enemies, and we have the freedom to criticize your decisions. Making an edgy tweet doesn't make anything better. Accept that if 90%+ of feedback is extremely negative about a change, your players are right, and you made a mistake. Pull the PTS changes back.
  • prof_doom
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    100% this.
    They claim these changes are supposed to be about increasing accessibility to content and closing the gap, and it's going to to the opposite.

    Right now there's probably thousands of players who are in the roughly 60-75k dps range that are starting to try vet trials. After this patch goes live, none of them will be able to do it.
  • RadicalED
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    im in a similar situation as you are, working for pb progress. i dont see myself tanking 2-3 atros with the upcoming changes, considering that it will probably take twice the amount of time to kill them in u35 and the spirit guardian changes.
  • JustAGoodPlayer
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    If content is not possible to close all players have the same accesability ?

    Nice idea ? )))
  • KingoftheTewks
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    Any sort of fast Bahsei is off the table. The best hope for PB will be a slow Oax where DPS catch poisons in execute, a 7 minute Bahsei, and somehow kill Xalvaka before the lava kills everyone. Planesbreaker will be harder than when it was first released, but there won't be competent enough players left to attempt it anyway.
  • acastanza_ESO
    acastanza_ESO
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    Every single line of the patch notes read: We want to kill this game's endgame community. We want it gone, now.

    It's very much looking like they're going to get their wish.
  • Vaoh
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    Is this normal for MMOs?

    I have not played another MMO, so I’m not sure if ”change for the sake of change” drastic combat balance patches should be expected.
  • JustAGoodPlayer
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    Any sort of fast Bahsei is off the table. The best hope for PB will be a slow Oax where DPS catch poisons in execute, a 7 minute Bahsei, and somehow kill Xalvaka before the lava kills everyone. Planesbreaker will be harder than when it was first released, but there won't be competent enough players left to attempt it anyway.

    Add to all this that balance is terrible, there are a lot of hidden changes, that even is not in patch notes - as example HA nerfs - now on lightning stuff it do 3 not 4 hit.

    A lot of skills changed, new animations looks bad and some players will not even have reason to play PVE/PVP - but take resorces as example on map.

    Gameplay feels bad, balance is the same bad.

    All they say before patch notes was not true ! They do different from what they say before !
  • Firstmep
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    One of the things that made healing enjoyable for me in pve and pvp, was the fact that I wasnt just healing, but buffing and indeed doing damage myself.
    With healing changes, we are back to spamming burst heals and not much else, since hots can no longer keep up.
    Not my idea of fun..
  • KingoftheTewks
    KingoftheTewks
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    One of the things that made healing enjoyable for me in pve and pvp, was the fact that I wasnt just healing, but buffing and indeed doing damage myself.
    With healing changes, we are back to spamming burst heals and not much else, since hots can no longer keep up.
    Not my idea of fun..

    DPS is also going to be very boring. Charles (world's first vDSR trifecta) tested DK on PTS yesterday and at one point he cast 22 whips in a row. How stimulating !
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    One of the things that made healing enjoyable for me in pve and pvp, was the fact that I wasnt just healing, but buffing and indeed doing damage myself.
    With healing changes, we are back to spamming burst heals and not much else, since hots can no longer keep up.
    Not my idea of fun..

    DPS is also going to be very boring. Charles (world's first vDSR trifecta) tested DK on PTS yesterday and at one point he cast 22 whips in a row. How stimulating !

    I got console first planesbreaker and am the type of player who would go for the vDSR trifecta.

    At first my incentive was very low because the title and mount are awful. Just trash that wouldn’t sell in the crown crates. I would still push it though if my group was interested.

    But now? There is legit no hope lol. The gameplay becomes super unfun, the damage gets a massive nerf, and the trifecta may outright not even be possible now. This is not worth my time...
  • AgaTheGreat
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    Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

    PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat
  • Everest_Lionheart
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    Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.
    Let’s implement this change:

    Step 1 - Revert the Crit and CP nerfs.

    Step 2 - Every GS or PB clear raises the cost of houses in the crown store 1000.

    Step 3 - Profit!
  • Vexen
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    If it's true about the outcome of this patch making end game more achievable for more players it does not do that. I'm right in the middle right now of dps. I do not expect any trifectas or ultimate achievements nor should I at that level. .

    Is the point to make regular vet trials available to everyone? Is it to make hard mode ones available? Neither should be available to someone coming in off the street. They are called HARD mode for a reason. The people I know that can hit 120k work at it all the time, and they like doing it. If that's what it takes to clear hm rg, then so be it.

    What percent of player base completes these different level of trials and what are we trying to change it to, and why? If anything, you're making upper end trials less accessible to people, since it will now require a fully optimized group to maybe clear these any longer, if at all in hm rg. If the goal was to make the trial more accessible, change the trial.

    You could always did what WoW did and add a "raid finder" version for people who just wanted to see the trial? My point is there are other options than wiping everyone's dps off the board.
    Edited by Vexen on July 12, 2022 6:55PM
  • Arthtur
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    Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

    Well with those changes they for sure wont get money from Endgame players xD
    PC/EU @Arthtur

    Toxic Tank for the win :x
  • redspecter23
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    Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

    They missed a patch note:

    It's come to our attention that some players are producing "obscene" houses currently through "manipulating" their amazing skill as housing mancers. In order to raise the floor and lower the ceiling (pun totally intended) we are reducing the number of furnishings that ALL players can place in each home by approximately 20% We feel that this change will make housing more accessible to all players. Trust us.
  • KingoftheTewks
    KingoftheTewks
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    Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

    The peak skill of the player pyramid in any game will by definition be a small portion of the revenue. However, I'd like to think we add significant value back to the game by training newer players and providing something for rising players to aspire to.
  • Xandreia_
    Xandreia_
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    Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

    They missed a patch note:

    It's come to our attention that some players are producing "obscene" houses currently through "manipulating" their amazing skill as housing mancers. In order to raise the floor and lower the ceiling (pun totally intended) we are reducing the number of furnishings that ALL players can place in each home by approximately 20% We feel that this change will make housing more accessible to all players. Trust us.

    imagine the uproar!
  • Grandchamp1989
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    This was very very insightful - thx for sharing OP.
  • JustAGoodPlayer
    JustAGoodPlayer
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    May be it is some strange fetish ... but i want to see next patch notes =)))
  • SeaUnicorn
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    Say no to meta flips! Let team Tewks get their PB in Peace!!!
  • SeaUnicorn
    SeaUnicorn
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    May be it is some strange fetish ... but i want to see next patch notes =)))

    you are not alone, we all have love-hate relationships with Natch Potes :D
  • Skjaldbjorn
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    As a current raid lead and someone who used to raid in 3-5 cores at any given time, 6-7 nights a week on average, yeah. Half my core is looking at this patch and thinking maybe New World's god awful balance wasn't so bad. That's a sad, sad reality.
  • Parasaurolophus
    Parasaurolophus
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    Do you really think that ZoS wants to make the endgame inaccessible to players? Are you seriously? Op, well done for testing dps and trials on pts. But you could just leave a review saying that the dps is too much to complete high-end content. Why this anger?
    PC/EU
  • FantasticFreddie
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    Do you really think that ZoS wants to make the endgame inaccessible to players? Are you seriously? Op, well done for testing dps and trials on pts. But you could just leave a review saying that the dps is too much to complete high-end content. Why this anger?

    Because we worked hard to get to a certain level, and to have that effort negated via senseless nerfs is annoying [snip].

    [edited for profanity bypass]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2022 4:39PM
  • starkerealm
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    Is this normal for MMOs?

    I have not played another MMO, so I’m not sure if ”change for the sake of change” drastic combat balance patches should be expected.

    No, it's not.

    Balance changes are pretty common, but most MMOs keep those as low key as possible. Balance changes to entire classes (particularly ones that were lagging behind), happen, but even then, those need to be handled carefully to avoid losing large numbers of players.

    ESO's wholesale war on endgame players is memeworthy.
  • FantasticFreddie
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    SeaUnicorn wrote: »
    Do you really think that ZoS wants to make the endgame inaccessible to players? Are you seriously? Op, well done for testing dps and trials on pts. But you could just leave a review saying that the dps is too much to complete high-end content. Why this anger?

    Because we worked hard to get to a certain level, and to have that effort negated via senseless nerfs is annoying AF.

    even more annoying because you are going for achievement for 6 months and get your progress negated every 3 months because meta flips. Overtune Bahsei - take away Mist form next patch, Take away Mit from tank CP next patch, Take away healing next patch.
    DD meta was flipped every patch since Rockgrove got released too, DK meta, Hybrid Meta, Stam Meta. Sets that we use getting nerfs
    Each time DD meta flips off-healer needs to swap class and re-learn as well.
    It's like ZOS is on crusade against the teams that are trying to go for PB and are not super sweaty best of the best ready to commit 10 hours a week to get it.
    Just give me a break, dude, let me raid in peace, do flips like that well planned, all in one go when next chapter hits!

    I've been in... checks notes 8 failed rg hm progs. EIGHT. Get stuck on bahsei, beat head against wall for 2 months, disband, rinse, lather, repeat.
  • Rhavein
    Rhavein
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    I can talk from PvP side, and everyone is gutted and months of hard work just trashed instantly. This patch should not go live.
    Gaehr
    Necro, Ninja, Goalkeeper
    Firehearts
  • Pevey
    Pevey
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    Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

    They missed a patch note:

    It's come to our attention that some players are producing "obscene" houses currently through "manipulating" their amazing skill as housing mancers. In order to raise the floor and lower the ceiling (pun totally intended) we are reducing the number of furnishings that ALL players can place in each home by approximately 20% We feel that this change will make housing more accessible to all players. Trust us.

    This is a very good analogy.

    Also, I disagree about where the revenue is coming. I think a significant portion comes from end-game players. Some directly and a lot from buying crowns with gold, which in turn are bought with cash by someone else.
  • PrincessOfThieves
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    Pevey wrote: »
    Also, I disagree about where the revenue is coming. I think a significant portion comes from end-game players. Some directly and a lot from buying crowns with gold, which in turn are bought with cash by someone else.

    There are also hardcore pvp players, they buy chapters solely because they want mythics.
  • Didgerion
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    I think it is pretty clear that ZOS doesn't want your ideas, they've just disbanded the game representatives.
    And they come up with major changes without brainstorming it with the community first.

    And as far as the End Game PVE Raid goes, I believe it will be harder to carry new players through the end-game content now.
    New players will be sad as result and will probably give up early and veteran players will have no good reason to pass the same content over and over with the same group of people.

    It is quite a dangerous patch they are implementing.

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