Thoughts from an End Game PVE Raid Lead

JanTanhide

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Also, I disagree about where the revenue is coming. I think a significant portion comes from end-game players. Some directly and a lot from buying crowns with gold, which in turn are bought with cash by someone else.

There are also hardcore pvp players, they buy chapters solely because they want mythics.

At one time I had five active accounts and three had ESO Plus. Now I login on four of them and only one has ESO Plus. Once they nerf us again into the dirt with this upcoming patch i will have zero ESO Plus accounts.

JanTanhide

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

The majority of end gamers I play with own literally everything in the crown store and have close to all achievements in the game. Who else spends more then them?

Yep. 8 years in this game. I have at least 20 houses and bought the DLC even though I'm ESO Plus.

kindred

Unfortunately, zos aren't concerned with you. They are worried about the young padwans that don't or won't try to learn to be good. They will throw the vet players that have been with them for years under the bus to make a buck. Ask vet pvp players, they've been screwing them over for a very long time in the name of inclusiveness and accessibility,

AzuraFan

kindred wrote: »

Unfortunately, zos aren't concerned with you. They are worried about the young padwans that don't or won't try to learn to be good. They will throw the vet players that have been with them for years under the bus to make a buck. Ask vet pvp players, they've been screwing them over for a very long time in the name of inclusiveness and accessibility,

It's not just about vet players. As has been pointed out multiple times, everyone is being screwed by the updates. Do you think casual players want to find out that we're doing less damage, or that we can't use our favourite skills or sets anymore? I'm not interested in learning new rotations and changing up my skillbar constantly. It blows my mind that ZOS thinks the casuals they're trying to help will want to spend hours testing new builds or learning new rotations or changing up everything on our skillbars. Come on.

As I said in another thread, sweeping changes to core combat skills shouldn't be taking place in an 8-year old game. They've had EIGHT YEARS to balance combat. Sure, they introduced two new classes since the beginning, but those classes have been around for a while now. This type of churn doesn't take place in other MMOs. There are always tweaks, yes. But not this.

The whole vets vs. casual thing isn't productive and certainly doesn't apply to this patch. What this patch tells me is that they just do not understand the playerbase. Any part of it. And for a game that's been out for 8 years, that's pretty sad.

Contraptions

Arthtur wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

Depends how much.
Because if they would nerf mid tier content it would make game even easier for endgame player.

Like those nerfs affect even ppl in Overland. So They would have to nerf everything which would make the game in the long run a lot easier.

So i think i prefer power creep. I dont want the game to become even more boring for me in some places. Sorry.

Holycannoli wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

What in the world would be the point in nerfing players and content though? I mean hypothetically yes, if content was also nerfed to match our player nerfs it would be ok but it won't ever happen. It defeats the point of the player nerfs, which for some unknown reason the devs think is good for the game's growth.

The idea is that by flattening the content difficulty curve, there would then be a much smoother progression instead of the current scaling where there's such a huge gulf between norm, vet and HM. Let's be real. Doing one doesn't prepare you at all for the other. This is echoed in their dev post that "The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve." Adjusting content to fit player power should be part of the accessibility they are aiming for.

This whole fiasco is due to all the nerfs making players suddenly much weaker compared to the content they are meant to be doing. Outside a complete revert of the combat changes, which let's be honest isn't happening, the only other solution that retains proper gameplay is to adjust content.

PVE mobs can't complain. I don't see the issue here honestly.

Arthtur

Contraptions wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

Depends how much.
Because if they would nerf mid tier content it would make game even easier for endgame player.

Like those nerfs affect even ppl in Overland. So They would have to nerf everything which would make the game in the long run a lot easier.

So i think i prefer power creep. I dont want the game to become even more boring for me in some places. Sorry.

Holycannoli wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

What in the world would be the point in nerfing players and content though? I mean hypothetically yes, if content was also nerfed to match our player nerfs it would be ok but it won't ever happen. It defeats the point of the player nerfs, which for some unknown reason the devs think is good for the game's growth.

The idea is that by flattening the content difficulty curve, there would then be a much smoother progression instead of the current scaling where there's such a huge gulf between norm, vet and HM. Let's be real. Doing one doesn't prepare you at all for the other. This is echoed in their dev post that "The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve." Adjusting content to fit player power should be part of the accessibility they are aiming for.

This whole fiasco is due to all the nerfs making players suddenly much weaker compared to the content they are meant to be doing. Outside a complete revert of the combat changes, which let's be honest isn't happening, the only other solution that retains proper gameplay is to adjust content.

PVE mobs can't complain. I don't see the issue here honestly.

Its not that i dont see what u mean. Its just that even with those nerfs on PTS, it doesnt affect me when we talk about doing content. For me its just damage nerf like any other patch. So any changes in content would result in making it easier for me which i do not enjoy. Its like removing mech from a boss when somebody has 0 problems with it. Sure for those who had problems it will become better, but for those who didnt had problems it become more boring. There is few examples in DLC dungeons how they removed mechs and made fights... uh...

Im all in for making weaker players stronger (Oakensoul was a good idea for PvE) but not at the cost of content that i enjoy. Like DLC dungeons are right now the only thing that left for me as overland is too easy for me and ZOS refuses to even add Challenge banners for World Bosses and Story Bosses. So if even DLC dungeons would become, boring then... im sorry but there wont be a place for me.

We can argue that those changes will be so small that i wont even notice but... I dont trust ZOS with this, sorry.
Just to make sure, im talking mostly about DLC Dungeons where we dont have high DPS checks like in Trials, those are diffrent story.

And about learning curve, i dont need it and i dont want to see how content i enjoy is becoming easier in order for better learning curve. If ZOS wants to add learning curve then they can start with better tutorials and in game mechs explanations.
Im sorry but i want to have fun too.

Hailan

I’m scared that my group won’t make the xalvaka burns if we don’t get pb before this terrible patch. This such a drastic nerf that I haven’t seen in my 3.5 years playing this game

JustAGoodPlayer

They can not do good balance. A lot of players here only are interested in x2 OP stats for there class and than protect it by all their class collective to not get nerf )))

Game creators can not pass own content on vet - so how do they balance thingth in such situation ?

And there are always 90% people who get dissapointed for no reason )))

Try to do balance in situation like this )))

wolfie1.0.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Do you really think that ZoS wants to make the endgame inaccessible to players? Are you seriously? Op, well done for testing dps and trials on pts. But you could just leave a review saying that the dps is too much to complete high-end content. Why this anger?

Actually, I think zos does. Basically it looks like ZOS is out of ideas for how to make end game harder

washbern wrote: »

Well, I think the hundreds of voices singing the same note in chorus over the course of one day is a pretty significant sign of where the community stands on this.

We must not stop. We must continue to test and provide as much feedback as possible.

That said, if this patch goes live the way it is, I plan on spending the next ZOS stream telling them that they have failed their community.

Sure it will fall on deaf ears and Noone will care but if enough of us spam their twitch with that, maybe whoever forced this change down our throats will have a sad night.

They will just block people in the comments. The best thing to do... and I hate to say it... is massively boycott the next stream. Don't watch it.

starkerealm

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Do you really think that ZoS wants to make the endgame inaccessible to players? Are you seriously? Op, well done for testing dps and trials on pts. But you could just leave a review saying that the dps is too much to complete high-end content. Why this anger?

Actually, I think zos does. Basically it looks like ZOS is out of ideas for how to make end game harder

washbern wrote: »

Well, I think the hundreds of voices singing the same note in chorus over the course of one day is a pretty significant sign of where the community stands on this.

We must not stop. We must continue to test and provide as much feedback as possible.

That said, if this patch goes live the way it is, I plan on spending the next ZOS stream telling them that they have failed their community.

Sure it will fall on deaf ears and Noone will care but if enough of us spam their twitch with that, maybe whoever forced this change down our throats will have a sad night.

They will just block people in the comments. The best thing to do... and I hate to say it... is massively boycott the next stream. Don't watch it.

Fun trivia: Twitch does not consider you a viewer if you have another tab focused in your browser.

phbell

haelene wrote: »

Based off what I've read and tested myself, this is 100% an increase in the skill gap. I am an average to below average player (20-30k dps). I will not be able to do any end game content at all now, and I'm not sure if I'll even be able to do normal dungeons.

This is my story and sentiment exactly. I have played this game since it went "Live" and endured all of the past changes made in the name of "balance", but nothing like this. No matter how hard i try i cannot get my DPS above 30K, but this is my problem and possibly due to my senior years slowing me down. One thing is certain - nerfing better players is not going to improve my game nor will it lessen any skill gap. It will have the opposite affect... DON'T DO IT!

The OP has this exactly correct. This is a "Customer Reduction Program". Simple as that.

Vahndamme

100% agree with OP.

+ on the tweet, we are customers and if 90%+ of your customers are negative regarding your product, it's time for you to act. In a big way, this patch is capable of killing the game for thousands of players.

Klingenlied

Didgerion wrote: »

I think it is pretty clear that ZOS doesn't want your ideas, they've just disbanded the game representatives.
And they come up with major changes without brainstorming it with the community first.

And as far as the End Game PVE Raid goes, I believe it will be harder to carry new players through the end-game content now.
New players will be sad as result and will probably give up early and veteran players will have no good reason to pass the same content over and over with the same group of people.

It is quite a dangerous patch they are implementing.

Dangerous indeed. Community is in uproar and still it seems no one is talking to us. Feels bad man. As bad as it can get

p00tx

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

Where do you think all of that gold that we make from doing carries goes? We turn around and dump it into housing and crown crates by paying crown sellers to gift them to us. If you knew the level of housing addiction that ran through endgame, you'd be amazed. I personally have almost every single crown store house on both Xbox AND on PC, just because I wanted to rebuild my collection once I transferred. I own every single crown furnishing pack on both platforms, and have even bought multiple copies of some of them on a single platform just because I liked the items. We spend plenty of money, and there are more of us than you think. If anything, we probably spend more time on this game than the average player because we have to constantly grind CP, skills, gear, Transmutes, and new characters for each raid team we join. Most of us actually just buy skill upgrades in the crown store for each of those new characters rather than grinding actually, just because it's easier. We dump plenty of money into the game. Or we did anyway...

starkerealm

Klingenlied wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

I think it is pretty clear that ZOS doesn't want your ideas, they've just disbanded the game representatives.
And they come up with major changes without brainstorming it with the community first.

And as far as the End Game PVE Raid goes, I believe it will be harder to carry new players through the end-game content now.
New players will be sad as result and will probably give up early and veteran players will have no good reason to pass the same content over and over with the same group of people.

It is quite a dangerous patch they are implementing.

Dangerous indeed. Community is in uproar and still it seems no one is talking to us. Feels bad man. As bad as it can get

But, hey, show a screenshot of a Khajiit in a skullcap because of a simple cosmetic bug, and you'll get an immediate response.

Yeah, this is not accidental.

Tannus15

I run a healthy raid group, our vDSR sign up filled in less than 8 hours, our core sunday group hasn't missed a run.

If these changes go live as they are i'm stopping. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not spending 3 months wasting my time attempting to do content we could previously clear but now can't because of these changes while we wait for ZoS to balance vRG HM or vDSR HM.

I was about to start a vKA HM for our newer members who don't have a clear for that trial. I have no interest in doing so with these nerfs.

I can pretty much guarantee this will kill our guild.

renne

Hailan wrote: »

I’m scared that my group won’t make the xalvaka burns if we don’t get pb before this terrible patch. This such a drastic nerf that I haven’t seen in my 3.5 years playing this game

All the very best in your PB prog and it hope it comes to you very quickly!

Vahndamme

Tannus15 wrote: »

I run a healthy raid group, our vDSR sign up filled in less than 8 hours, our core sunday group hasn't missed a run.

If these changes go live as they are i'm stopping. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not spending 3 months wasting my time attempting to do content we could previously clear but now can't because of these changes while we wait for ZoS to balance vRG HM or vDSR HM.

I was about to start a vKA HM for our newer members who don't have a clear for that trial. I have no interest in doing so with these nerfs.

I can pretty much guarantee this will kill our guild.

Things like this just make me sad. Like how can devs be so out of sync with their playerbase. Like I'm on the same wagon as you but as a member of such a guild. Also enterring vKA HM and progging there but well if we get kicked back to the curb. What will be the result? The guild might not die, I cannot talk for them but I know a lot of players will.

Pevey

p00tx wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

Where do you think all of that gold that we make from doing carries goes? We turn around and dump it into housing and crown crates by paying crown sellers to gift them to us. If you knew the level of housing addiction that ran through endgame, you'd be amazed. I personally have almost every single crown store house on both Xbox AND on PC, just because I wanted to rebuild my collection once I transferred. I own every single crown furnishing pack on both platforms, and have even bought multiple copies of some of them on a single platform just because I liked the items. We spend plenty of money, and there are more of us than you think. If anything, we probably spend more time on this game than the average player because we have to constantly grind CP, skills, gear, Transmutes, and new characters for each raid team we join. Most of us actually just buy skill upgrades in the crown store for each of those new characters rather than grinding actually, just because it's easier. We dump plenty of money into the game. Or we did anyway...

This. A million times this. Why do people bother to even offer carries? There is not much you can spend gold on in-game. There is a natural limit.

When OMC shutdown, they announced that they had made over $25 billion in-game gold doing carries. A large percentage of that ended up being traded for crowns.

That is a heck of a lot of crown sales.

p00tx

Pevey wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

Where do you think all of that gold that we make from doing carries goes? We turn around and dump it into housing and crown crates by paying crown sellers to gift them to us. If you knew the level of housing addiction that ran through endgame, you'd be amazed. I personally have almost every single crown store house on both Xbox AND on PC, just because I wanted to rebuild my collection once I transferred. I own every single crown furnishing pack on both platforms, and have even bought multiple copies of some of them on a single platform just because I liked the items. We spend plenty of money, and there are more of us than you think. If anything, we probably spend more time on this game than the average player because we have to constantly grind CP, skills, gear, Transmutes, and new characters for each raid team we join. Most of us actually just buy skill upgrades in the crown store for each of those new characters rather than grinding actually, just because it's easier. We dump plenty of money into the game. Or we did anyway...

This. A million times this. Why do people bother to even offer carries? There is not much you can spend gold on in-game. There is a natural limit.

When OMC shutdown, they announced that they had made over $25 billion in-game gold doing carries. A large percentage of that ended up being traded for crowns.

That is a heck of a lot of crown sales.

Exaaaaactly. Endgame provides a buttload of crown sales and is a fantastic gold sink for some of the ESO moguls who just want the achievements/titles/mounts/cosmetics from the content without slogging through progression.