Thoughts from an End Game PVE Raid Lead

Urvoth

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

A lot of people love to mindlessly parrot that statement but I would be skeptical about how true it actually is. End game players and players that have played consistently for a long time are at a bare minimum almost all going to have ESO plus, which is already more than what a lot of new players or casuals spend on the game. On top of that, who do you think is stacking up on thousands and thousands of crowns every time there is a sale, or opening hundreds of crates every crate cycle to get the radiants, skins, costumes, furniture, etc. they want?

Casuals and new players also simply don't have the sheer amount of gold needed to trade with crown sellers for crates, houses, etc. As of this post, the current crown exchange rate on TCE for PC NA is 1800:1, meaning for a single 15 crate pack, you would need to spend 9,000,000 gold. Yes, you can get crowns cheaper from zone chat or guild members, but even at 50% of the price, that's still nearly 5m gold for a single 15 crate pack, and it's not uncommon for radiant hunters to buy up to a dozen or so packs. Most end game PvPers and PvErs I've met have AT LEAST one radiant and crown store notable home, if not many, many more.

I would be hard pressed to believe that a casual or new player would be inclined to spend hundreds upon hundreds a year on the game on top of having ESO plus AND buying the chapters. A single end game player with, for example, 5 notable crown store houses, 5 radiants, a ton of skins, furniture, etc., is likely going to be worth at a minimum 20-50x what an average casual or new player would be for the ZOS revenue stream.

BlueRaven

Just to step in here. It’s been demonstrated that lower end dps will be going downward as well. Possibly as much as 33%. Oakensoul, heavy attack spamming, etc these changes hit the low dps crowd hard.

The difference is that the higher end players will try to compensate for their dps loss with gear changes and the like. The cutting edge groups will go down in dps for sure, but their dps loss will be minimized by research and practice.

The lower end player may not have access to different gear (or let’s face it, may not even know their dps output even changed). So they will face the “full force” of these changes. It’s possible the gap between high end and low end players will most likely INCREASE with these changes.

Didgerion

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

The new players look up to the end game players and starting to spend money to catch up.
If there is no one to catch up with there will be no money flow.

haelene

Based off what I've read and tested myself, this is 100% an increase in the skill gap. I am an average to below average player (20-30k dps). I will not be able to do any end game content at all now, and I'm not sure if I'll even be able to do normal dungeons.

Chimeraling

I have to agree. I'm in a couple of cores myself and it's hard enough to find fills or replacements when players are rapidly losing interest in ESO due to other changes. If this hits live, I'm not sure what's going to happen. And it sucks, because endgame is what makes me really love ESO. I love the challenge and the way it pushes me to adapt and learn strategy/combat/etc. and made so many friends this way.

I'm not one to get upset over changes, I always roll with the punches every patch as they say, but this is just a bit too much. To be clear: I don't plan on quitting myself, but I know a lot of people who are. I really feel for newer players too, they aren't going to understand why content seems more difficult. And as someone else stated, many lower- and middle-end players don't have the time, energy, nor money to keep up with the meta and save their numbers. If the idea really was to make things more accessible, this isn't doing the job, and this is coming from someone with their own disability.

I wholly understand the want to lessen the skill and DPS gap, and am in full support of it on paper, but this is not the way to do it and I hope ZOS sees that now that the players are having time to test the changes.

xaraan

Out of the two raid groups I run with, one is still barely hanging on to having a full group each week and this might be the nail in the coffin for it. The other has already gotten to the point where they are dissolving their group and some are moving on to other games and the patch isn't even live yet.

Holycannoli

But wait, this patch is supposed to make it easier for the average player to get into vet and endgame content. Are you trying to say this patch is actually going to do the opposite? That damage nerfs aren't the way to get more people into vet content?

eovogtb16_ESO

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

The majority of end gamers I play with own literally everything in the crown store and have close to all achievements in the game. Who else spends more then them?

Pevey

xaraan wrote: »

Out of the two raid groups I run with, one is still barely hanging on to having a full group each week and this might be the nail in the coffin for it. The other has already gotten to the point where they are dissolving their group and some are moving on to other games and the patch isn't even live yet.

I've seen two prog groups disbanded already because too many ppl quit as a result of these notes and could not be replaced.

Say_My_Name

haelene wrote: »

Based off what I've read and tested myself, this is 100% an increase in the skill gap. I am an average to below average player (20-30k dps). I will not be able to do any end game content at all now, and I'm not sure if I'll even be able to do normal dungeons.

I have about as low dps on my character idk if I can keep playing if these issues make it harder for me to play how I want.

Or if it becomes unfun as a consequence, why continue my subscription playing?

adamsmith42

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

Yes, but most of those 'moneymakers' want to be end game players down the road...if ZoS destroys end game, what's to keep those young players in the game and spending money?

WolfySaurusREX

Yeah this is exactly what I said would happen. We all knew it and now we just gotta hope that ZOS will enact some changes.

sarahthes

As another former endgame player, change fatigue is why I have stopped playing and moved on to other games. It got to the point where I didn't even care if the change was good or bad. I just got tired of the sheer number of them. Got my third Godslayer a couple weeks before High Isle released and have logged in exactly twice since then. The second time was to promote a new acting GM for my guild. The next time I log in will probably be to finish transferring guild ownership.

washbern

Well, I think the hundreds of voices singing the same note in chorus over the course of one day is a pretty significant sign of where the community stands on this.

We must not stop. We must continue to test and provide as much feedback as possible.

That said, if this patch goes live the way it is, I plan on spending the next ZOS stream telling them that they have failed their community.

Sure it will fall on deaf ears and Noone will care but if enough of us spam their twitch with that, maybe whoever forced this change down our throats will have a sad night.

J18696

Its quite insane they throw these comments around about making content accessible for everyone but this patch is probably going to have a opposite effect for handfuls of content

fred4

@KingoftheTewks, as a non vet-Trial player, but one with a PvP and vet dungeon pugging background, I have to ask: The tanks not being able to heal, wouldn't that have something to do with the current trial meta calling for them to build for group utility rather than selfishness? As a solo and PUG player, my tank is largely selfish. It combines 4K health regen, Crit Surge, Dark Deal, meditation (resource and health restore), Master's 1H+S heal, resistance cap, Engine Guardian, and the Clannfear self-heal for good measure. Please don't laugh at the Clannfear. He survives well in vBRP (arena 1) solo, although he died in the first vet Hel Ra fight, albeit also solo for testing purposes.

By no means am I saying you should run that build, but won't it be a question of working out the new meta? Won't that be something you don't necessarily have to do yourself, but that prominent members of the community will do, the likes of Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, and so on? Does it come down to your group not being able to do it, or does it come down to people not having the time or not wanting to to farm new sets and adopt new playstyles? The latter would be totally understandable, but I'm curious nonetheless. Is it simply that no one likes being jerked around as much as ZOS are doing?

Contraptions

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

PrincessOfThieves

Contraptions wrote: »

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

That's a good question.
I still think it won't fix anything in the grand scheme of things. The current power creep is largely caused by new powerful sets, and they will not stop adding those. So even if they nerf all damage and all content, power creep will just start building up again.
I think they should just stop playing whack-a-mole with op players and let them be. They're a very tiny minority anyway. An average player in this game is far from overpowered, and they suffer the most from these kinds of changes.
And if they want to bridge the gap between those op players and casuals, they could for example add a third difficulty setting to make the transition between normal and vet less painful. Or add better tutorials. Or anything that actually helps new players.

Anne13

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Remember who is the biggest money cow for ZoS. Hint. Not end game players.

The majority of end gamers I play with own literally everything in the crown store and have close to all achievements in the game. Who else spends more then them?

100% agree. I've been a raid lead ps eu for over 5 years. I have 169 mounts over 50k achievement points houses, costumes etc etc.

Many in my core group have already stated that if these ridiculous game breaking changes go ahead they will be quitting the game in a heart beat. Myself included.
Which considering all the time, blood, sweat and tears we have all put in to this game. Working hard and having fun earning and progressing the harder content. To have that taken away is very much heartbreaking...

Rhavein

Most of us even not upset about la/ha change but the dots are getting boring, messing up with rotation, huge damage loss and huge mechanic changes are the problem and on top of these hots are getting same treatment too.

i think, in order to find the middle ground, all the dots should tick every second as well hots (not every 2s) and the dot durations should be kept unique to each class, even if the durations are extended. The nerfs should be revamped and lessened. If the global nerf is necessary (well some skills are performing too much in pvp like regen), then nerfs can be focused on those skills rather than killing the combat fully. Alternatively, some other solutions can be sought such as turning off cross-heals, rather than making skills useless.

And lastly, that "dispel" set should be removed from the game.

PrincessOfThieves

Rhavein wrote: »

Most of us even not upset about la/ha change but the dots are getting boring, messing up with rotation, huge damage loss and huge mechanic changes are the problem and on top of these hots are getting same treatment too.

i think, in order to find the middle ground, all the dots should tick every second as well hots (not every 2s) and the dot durations should be kept unique to each class, even if the durations are extended. The nerfs should be revamped and lessened. If the global nerf is necessary (well some skills are performing too much in pvp like regen), then nerfs can be focused on those skills rather than killing the combat fully. Alternatively, some other solutions can be sought such as turning off cross-heals, rather than making skills useless.

And lastly, that "dispel" set should be removed from the game.

I agree. Maybe they could make dots last 15sec, with some classes having longer dots. They should also tick every second, this 2 second change doesn't make sense. Especially for heals.

Pevey

These changes are so sweeping that they essentially deleted the combat and replaced it with something else. They gutted some classes so that they don’t even play the same way as they did since they were introduced (warden).

So it’s not like the long-term players are rage quitting. They’re just looking at this new combat design, taking it in, and saying, that’s a very different game from what I have been playing for years, and it’s not a game I want to play.

This is a very reasonable reaction to essentially replacing ESO’s combat after 8 years.

It’s not just the nerfs that make it questionable whether some content is even possible now. It’s not just the attempt (and fail) at nerfing weaving and the animosity shown toward players who have mastered it. It’s not just the gutting class changes. It’s not just the fundamental changes to the rhythm of combat, with the implementation of soft cooldowns with these dot lengths combined with ESO’s severely limited number of skill slots.

It’s all of the above.

mocap

despite end game raid groups are not majority of ESO players, they must be technically able to pass vet hm trifecta/whatever trials. And don't forget about console raid groups, they will suffer 10 times harder.

Arthtur

fred4 wrote: »

KingoftheTewks, as a non vet-Trial player, but one with a PvP and vet dungeon pugging background, I have to ask: The tanks not being able to heal, wouldn't that have something to do with the current trial meta calling for them to build for group utility rather than selfishness? As a solo and PUG player, my tank is largely selfish. It combines 4K health regen, Crit Surge, Dark Deal, meditation (resource and health restore), Master's 1H+S heal, resistance cap, Engine Guardian, and the Clannfear self-heal for good measure. Please don't laugh at the Clannfear. He survives well in vBRP (arena 1) solo, although he died in the first vet Hel Ra fight, albeit also solo for testing purposes.

By no means am I saying you should run that build, but won't it be a question of working out the new meta? Won't that be something you don't necessarily have to do yourself, but that prominent members of the community will do, the likes of Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, and so on? Does it come down to your group not being able to do it, or does it come down to people not having the time or not wanting to to farm new sets and adopt new playstyles? The latter would be totally understandable, but I'm curious nonetheless. Is it simply that no one likes being jerked around as much as ZOS are doing?

If tanks have to use "tank's sets" then damage will go down even more making even the best group out here unable to do the hardest content.
Those "selfish" sets are good when u learn. In organised group u dont want to use them as u know... u have 2 healers in the group. If 2 healers arent enough to keep tanks alive then the gear wont change it.

In addition, the biggest problem for tanks are DoTs. The more HP u have the more they hurt u. So in order for a set to help u with those it would need to heal for 8k per second(average damage of 1 DoT). Yes it would be broken in PvP.

Arthtur

Contraptions wrote: »

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

Depends how much.
Because if they would nerf mid tier content it would make game even easier for endgame player.

Like those nerfs affect even ppl in Overland. So They would have to nerf everything which would make the game in the long run a lot easier.

So i think i prefer power creep. I dont want the game to become even more boring for me in some places. Sorry.

KingoftheTewks

Arthtur wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

KingoftheTewks, as a non vet-Trial player, but one with a PvP and vet dungeon pugging background, I have to ask: The tanks not being able to heal, wouldn't that have something to do with the current trial meta calling for them to build for group utility rather than selfishness? As a solo and PUG player, my tank is largely selfish. It combines 4K health regen, Crit Surge, Dark Deal, meditation (resource and health restore), Master's 1H+S heal, resistance cap, Engine Guardian, and the Clannfear self-heal for good measure. Please don't laugh at the Clannfear. He survives well in vBRP (arena 1) solo, although he died in the first vet Hel Ra fight, albeit also solo for testing purposes.

By no means am I saying you should run that build, but won't it be a question of working out the new meta? Won't that be something you don't necessarily have to do yourself, but that prominent members of the community will do, the likes of Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, and so on? Does it come down to your group not being able to do it, or does it come down to people not having the time or not wanting to to farm new sets and adopt new playstyles? The latter would be totally understandable, but I'm curious nonetheless. Is it simply that no one likes being jerked around as much as ZOS are doing?

If tanks have to use "tank's sets" then damage will go down even more making even the best group out here unable to do the hardest content.
Those "selfish" sets are good when u learn. In organised group u dont want to use them as u know... u have 2 healers in the group. If 2 healers arent enough to keep tanks alive then the gear wont change it.

In addition, the biggest problem for tanks are DoTs. The more HP u have the more they hurt u. So in order for a set to help u with those it would need to heal for 8k per second(average damage of 1 DoT). Yes it would be broken in PvP.

Basically this. Also if tanks drop sets like Sax and Yoln then healers will lose healing output also since they are getting buffed by the tanks. It may be possible to put tanks in selfish sets and even more mitigation/healing skills for something like Bahsei, but that is going to really hurt groups when the lost buffs/debuffs combine with the overall patch DPS nerf.


BTW tanks already are running pretty high mitigation anyway when necessary. The OT on Bahsei for a faster strat is a necro and they have 15% DoT resistance, they run flare AND temporal guard frontbar (15% damage mitigation), spirit guardian 10% mitigation (useless skill next patch) and use scythe to heal (fat burst heal). They also have GUARD which transfers 30% of their damage taken to the EC cro. Even then they can take over 40k damage in a second from double bleeds and light attacks! So if the strongest HoTs from the healers are hitting every 2 seconds, will they be able to self heal for 80k damage between big heal ticks?...

KingoftheTewks

Please sign

https://www.change.org/p/justice-for-tewks-let-us-raid-in-peace?redirect=false

katorga

Vaoh wrote: »

Is this normal for MMOs?

I have not played another MMO, so I’m not sure if ”change for the sake of change” drastic combat balance patches should be expected.

No.

Playing MMOs from 1999 on, almost all are gradual, tempered change. Most, especially ones with extremely long lifespans, know there will be power creep and build around it.

ZOS likes to radically change everything every 3 mos. I assume there is a "plan", but really it feels like "the top 20 complaints on the forums". That creates the next round of complaints. The cycle repeats. Short answer is don't get too attached to a class, build or play style. On the positive side, these changes are always so drastic, knee-jerk, and not well-thought out that they ALWAYS create new imbalances to exploit.

On the negative side, casual players who don't study the patch notes in detail and absorb the implications are completely blindsided every 3 mos and cannot figure out why nothing works right.

I can count on both hands the number of truly broken things that needed nerfing over the last 7 years.

JanTanhide

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Every single line of the patch notes read: We want to kill this game's endgame community. We want it gone, now.

It's very much looking like they're going to get their wish.

Agree. I call it the "PRP" which stands for Player Reduction Program. They want us gone. Many Vet players are gone. The guilds I'm in are all skeletons of what they once were due to all the arbitrary nerfs to the game over the past few years.

I look at the big ESO streamers that had (yes, HAD) thousands of viewers and are now gone due to the attitude we get from the DEVS.

Even Fengrush has had enough. Looks like ZOS wants only casual players to buy the game and keep the money flowing in.

Holycannoli

Contraptions wrote: »

Honest question, if content was nerfed along with us, would that be acceptable? Cos PVE difficulty is based on the difference between power level of the player and the mobs.

I really don't have much hope of the skill nerfs being reverted, ZOS seems fully committed to this.

What in the world would be the point in nerfing players and content though? I mean hypothetically yes, if content was also nerfed to match our player nerfs it would be ok but it won't ever happen. It defeats the point of the player nerfs, which for some unknown reason the devs think is good for the game's growth.