Need to fix people instantly leaving DLC dungeons

zaria · July 2022

Can not remember this has happened for ages but then I mostly do rnd with guild and then we get dlc people want quests or gear.
Even was in an nDCL marathon after the sticker book, we queued for rnd with an full group if not an dlc we did the next in the list

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

While having separate queu is a good idea base game dungeon should have lesser reward
Base game only: 50% of current reward, you are removing the risk of running random dlc
Mixt: exactly like now
Dlc only: 125% of current reward, you are removing the possibility to get easy fast dungeon

You still cant get more than one queue reward per day so you have to choose between small fast reward or bigger slower reward

This would also have the benefit to have less of a queue lenght increase due to the splitting of the queue

SilverBride · July 2022

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

While having separate queu is a good idea base game dungeon should have lesser reward...

Why? There are already players who don't have DLC dungeons in their queue now. They don't get lesser rewards. Why should others who want the same be penalized?

Paralyse · July 2022

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

While having separate queu is a good idea base game dungeon should have lesser reward
Base game only: 50% of current reward, you are removing the risk of running random dlc
Mixt: exactly like now
Dlc only: 125% of current reward, you are removing the possibility to get easy fast dungeon

You still cant get more than one queue reward per day so you have to choose between small fast reward or bigger slower reward

This would also have the benefit to have less of a queue lenght increase due to the splitting of the queue

Splitting the queue would REDUCE queue times for a random non-DLC queue.

There are a lot of people who don't want to queue randoms for fear of getting DLC content, or who will leave as soon as they get a DLC dungeon if they don't want to run it. Neither one of those outcomes is good for the other players, since it makes it take even longer to get their dailies done.

If they could queue up for randoms and not have to worry about getting DLC dungeons, they would be more likely to queue, especially since many of those dungeons can easily be completed with three or fewer players in the event someone were to leave anyway.

I would encourage actually IMPROVING rewards for a separate DLC queue to get more people interested in doing the content -- ranging from extra drops for each boss kill, to improved daily rewards such as more crystals, yellow quality crafting mats, rare motifs/patterns, etc. instead of the current 10 crystals and single purple item from the 3 sets.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

It's the dlcs that needs the most help. Splitting the queue undermines the system.

There should be another source of transmute but not so much that it stop people from running rnd. This way people who hate it that much have an alternative option.

It's also not unfair to ESO+ players imo. You're getting content you paid for, and without plus aren't getting free access to paid content. Everyone is also treated exactly the same. Automatically queued for all dungeons they can participate in. It is the entire point of the game mode to pay you for allowing the activity finder choose the dungeon instead of running the dungeon of your choice. So it's not unfair you don't get to choose. And it's not a penalty against anyone.

It's just the awkward that arises because not all plus members are subscribed to get all the dlc. ZOS'S first and foremost duty is to provide what they sold though.

SilverBride · July 2022

I wish they would stop making content that so many players are actively avoiding. Normal DLC dungeons should not be any more difficult or time consuming than the base game dungeons. We already have veteran dungeons for those who prefer more of a challenge.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would stop making content that so many players are actively avoiding. Normal DLC dungeons should not be any more difficult or time consuming than the base game dungeons. We already have veteran dungeons for those who prefer more of a challenge.

Yeah. I definitely get that. It's hard because the people who participate the most in those dungeons consistently requested that the normal mode be better training for the vet mode. And that's kind of why they shifted more towards the current design, some of the older ones like icp are designed that way. Personally though I don't think it's actually serving it's purpose since most still don't train on normal. So I think they should probably start designing normal mode as the easy version that everyone can do again.

And make more bosses skippable.

SilverBride · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would stop making content that so many players are actively avoiding. Normal DLC dungeons should not be any more difficult or time consuming than the base game dungeons. We already have veteran dungeons for those who prefer more of a challenge.

Yeah. I definitely get that. It's hard because the people who participate the most in those dungeons consistently requested that the normal mode be better training for the vet mode. And that's kind of why they shifted more towards the current design, some of the older ones like icp are designed that way. Personally though I don't think it's actually serving it's purpose since most still don't train on normal. So I think they should probably start designing normal mode as the easy version that everyone can do again.

And make more bosses skippable.

This I agree with and I hope they consider it moving forward, but realistically I don't see them going back and changing all the current DLC dungeons. Something needs to be done, but punishing players for avoiding content they do not enjoy is not the answer.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wish they would stop making content that so many players are actively avoiding. Normal DLC dungeons should not be any more difficult or time consuming than the base game dungeons. We already have veteran dungeons for those who prefer more of a challenge.

Yeah. I definitely get that. It's hard because the people who participate the most in those dungeons consistently requested that the normal mode be better training for the vet mode. And that's kind of why they shifted more towards the current design, some of the older ones like icp are designed that way. Personally though I don't think it's actually serving it's purpose since most still don't train on normal. So I think they should probably start designing normal mode as the easy version that everyone can do again.

And make more bosses skippable.

This I agree with and I hope they consider it moving forward, but realistically I don't see them going back and changing all the current DLC dungeons. Something needs to be done, but punishing players for avoiding content they do not enjoy is not the answer.

They aren't punishing players for avoiding content they don't enjoy. They are rewarding players for helping their fellow players out. Someone not getting a reward in precisely the manner they wanted is not a punishment.

Nobody describes having to PVP to get pvp rewards as a punishment. Nobody describes having to finish the storyline to get skill points as a punishment. And nobody should describe having to run a random dungeon to get rewarded for doing a random dungeon as a punishment either. IMO.

ETA
I understand that the rewards are unfair. I agree with that part though. And I feel like that's the reason people feel punished. But really the activity finder is working like all other content in the game. If you want the rewards, you gotta do that particular activity.

ETA 2

By this means, I don't agree people are being punished for having to do a random dungeon to get the random dungeon reward. I think people feel punished because they are being forced into content they don't want or like, in order to get a currency that they need to play the rest of the game. That to me is where it gets unfair. If people weren't feeling forced to do content they didn't like, I feel like they'd be able to be more understanding that they need to do a random dungeon to get rewarded for doing a random dungeon. And it would be more comparable to the way the rest of the game works where there are alternatives to getting stuff you need if you don't like a particular piece of content.

SilverBride · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nobody describes having to PVP to get pvp rewards as a punishment. Nobody describes having to finish the storyline to get skill points as a punishment. And nobody should describe having to run a random dungeon to get rewarded for doing a random dungeon as a punishment either. IMO.

The difference is that not everyone is forced to run DLC dungeons in their queues. Just those who spent money to subscribe and/or purchase DLCs.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nobody describes having to PVP to get pvp rewards as a punishment. Nobody describes having to finish the storyline to get skill points as a punishment. And nobody should describe having to run a random dungeon to get rewarded for doing a random dungeon as a punishment either. IMO.

The difference is that not everyone is forced to run DLC dungeons in their queues. Just those who spent money to subscribe and/or purchase DLCs.

That's only because nonsubscribers are not getting access to content they did not pay for. They don't get to run that content when they want to run it either.

adyreonb14_ESO · July 2022

Korsario wrote: »

This has to be the MOST infuriating aspect of the game whenever you queue for a DLC dungeon or a random normal dungeon and it comes up with a DLC one there's a 90% chance people will instantly leave which makes the whole ordeal even a worse experience specially since the replacement tool doesn't work very well it took around 30 minutes to get a DPS replaced the other day when im sure there's probably thousands of DPS queued at any time for a random normal.

Heres 3 possible fixes that come to my mind:

- Make all the dungeons in normal mode take the same amount of time and have more or less the same difficulty on NORMAL mode, this will be labour intensive and cramp the style of developers but is probably the most fair and best solution in the long run. Check FFXIV for this all their dungeons take more or less the same amount of time give or take and have more or less the same difficulty, they even retool old dungeons if they get out of the norm.

- Increase the rewards you get for running a DLC dungeon if you get them in your daily random normal. This iis tricky cause the balance needs to be perfect so people dont start leaving the the pre DLC ones but might be an easier path.

- The stick, punish HEAVILY leaver of dungeons and keep a track of how much they do this if they are repeated offenders start taking actions against their accounts for harassment, punishing is never fun but is probably the most effective way to correct bad habits.

This is seriously the biggest issue for me with the game currently what makes me think its probably not worth to spend a subscription on the product.

I'd say one more option:

Split the DLC vs. the non-DLC queues, but the DLC gets twice the reward of the non-DLC queue to start, then monitor queues.

There will be some that will only want to do the non-DLC (especially new players), but having twice the reward on the DLC will get some to queue up for it; then monitor the queue levels, and adjust rewards for the DLC dungeons so it is roughly a 50/50 split for the queues.

Dawnblade · July 2022

Either adjust the time / difficulty curves such that normal DLC dungeons provide a similar level of reward for the time spent as non-DLC dungeons, or split the queues and increase / incentivize the DLC queue rewards.

I've never understood why paying a subscription fee should result in an experience where a player spends twice as long or longer to earn the same rewards as people not paying a subscription fee.

Oh and recommending the addition of penalties to address a developer failure is a really bad idea.

SilverBride · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nobody describes having to PVP to get pvp rewards as a punishment. Nobody describes having to finish the storyline to get skill points as a punishment. And nobody should describe having to run a random dungeon to get rewarded for doing a random dungeon as a punishment either. IMO.

The difference is that not everyone is forced to run DLC dungeons in their queues. Just those who spent money to subscribe and/or purchase DLCs.

That's only because nonsubscribers are not getting access to content they did not pay for. They don't get to run that content when they want to run it either.

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Kappachi · July 2022

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Korsario wrote: »

- The stick, punish HEAVILY leaver of dungeons and keep a track of how much they do this if they are repeated offenders start taking actions against their accounts for harassment, punishing is never fun but is probably the most effective way to correct bad habits.

Wow.

People don't like running DLC dungeons with pugs, and ZOS refuses to remove the DLCs from the random dungeon finder, which is precisely why people leave when they get placed in one, but you see it as a personal attack (harassment), so your solution is to have official action taken against their accounts.

I don't even use the dungeon finder, but, Wow.

The only dungeons I enjoy running are the DLC dungeons because the normal ones are just mindless grinds... I love running DLC dungeons and pugs and would be infuriated if they were removed from random normal/random veteran.

SilverBride · July 2022

Kappachi wrote: »

The only dungeons I enjoy running are the DLC dungeons because the normal ones are just mindless grinds... I love running DLC dungeons and pugs and would be infuriated if they were removed from random normal/random veteran.

No one is saying to remove DLC dungeons from the random queue. But rather to separate base game dungeons into one queue and DLC dungeons into another. This way everyone has a choice.

Kappachi · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

The only dungeons I enjoy running are the DLC dungeons because the normal ones are just mindless grinds... I love running DLC dungeons and pugs and would be infuriated if they were removed from random normal/random veteran.

No one is saying to remove DLC dungeons from the random queue. But rather to separate base game dungeons into one queue and DLC dungeons into another. This way everyone has a choice.

Doing things like this leads to a split playerbase, it never works out well for games that implement it, every time it's been used one side has way more players than the other side and queues take either a very long time or never pop. Random should mean random, all your available dungeons and for long-time players or people who own the dlcs/eso+/etc that means DLC dungeons as well.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nobody describes having to PVP to get pvp rewards as a punishment. Nobody describes having to finish the storyline to get skill points as a punishment. And nobody should describe having to run a random dungeon to get rewarded for doing a random dungeon as a punishment either. IMO.

The difference is that not everyone is forced to run DLC dungeons in their queues. Just those who spent money to subscribe and/or purchase DLCs.

That's only because nonsubscribers are not getting access to content they did not pay for. They don't get to run that content when they want to run it either.

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Sure. But that's the reason that ZOS didn't include them in those dungeons. The activity finder just automatically queues everyone the same, all dungeons they qualify for. Nonsubscribers sometimes do buy dungeon DLC to get like a monster helmet or something, and once they do that it becomes a permanent part of their random normal since they now qualify to do it. I actually used to occasionally buy dungeon DLC back when I wasn't subscribed for that reason.

One thing you could do is queue up on a low level character, if you wanted to use an alt. It wouldn't queue you up for the dlc because you wouldn't qualify for it due to level. It's not a perfect solution but you'd get only the dungeons you wanted, get your reward, avoid a leaver penalty, and make your group mates happy.

If you don't care about the reward, you can also checkmark as many specific dungeons as you want and queue them all up at the same time. So you'd get a random one only from the group of dungeons you enjoy.

SilverBride · July 2022

Kappachi wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

The only dungeons I enjoy running are the DLC dungeons because the normal ones are just mindless grinds... I love running DLC dungeons and pugs and would be infuriated if they were removed from random normal/random veteran.

No one is saying to remove DLC dungeons from the random queue. But rather to separate base game dungeons into one queue and DLC dungeons into another. This way everyone has a choice.

Doing things like this leads to a split playerbase, it never works out well for games that implement it, every time it's been used one side has way more players than the other side and queues take either a very long time or never pop. Random should mean random, all your available dungeons and for long-time players or people who own the dlcs/eso+/etc that means DLC dungeons as well.

You can only have 4 players in a dungeon instance at a time. Players in dungeons can only interact with the other 3 players in their particular instance. There can be hundreds of dungeon groups going at one time, and every one of them is comprised of 4 players or less that cannot interact with players in other dungeon groups. These players are split into individual groups but this is not what is meant by splitting the playerbase.

Besides the fact that dungeons are already split into normal and veteran. Creating base game and DLC versions will still only have 4 players in each dungeon instance and will have no effect on any other group in any other dungeon type.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

Splitting the queue doesn't make an impact on the people who are inside the dungeon. But it does create an impact on those who are trying to find a group. The less players in their queue, the longer they have to wait. And the wait times are already quite long. There's a ton of people, myself included, that would not be queueing for a DLC random.

I wouldn't queue for it because I go into the random to get my rewards. If ZOS decides to reward me for helping others, that's great. If they don't, I'm not a charity. I am going to do the easiest method available for myself. So I'd just do whichever queue included Fungal Grotto.

Kappachi · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Splitting the queue doesn't make an impact on the people who are inside the dungeon. But it does create an impact on those who are trying to find a group. The less players in their queue, the longer they have to wait. And the wait times are already quite long. There's a ton of people, myself included, that would not be queueing for a DLC random.

I wouldn't queue for it because I go into the random to get my rewards. If ZOS decides to reward me for helping others, that's great. If they don't, I'm not a charity. I am going to do the easiest method available for myself. So I'd just do whichever queue included Fungal Grotto.

Yes, exactly this. If you choose between base/DLC then one side is going to be wildly imbalanced and especially for DPS they won't find a queue. It's never a solution to start including split playerbase options, leaving all in random normal/vet is the best way to go. People who dodge have to take a penalty, that's on them, if they don't want to do random they should queue specific dungeons or let their ESO+ expire if they don't own the DLC.

Look at DOTA 2, It has many modes, queues, etc... If you try to queue for Random Draft then you will be given anywhere between a 20 minute to 120 minute+ queue, because there's too many game modes, especially since Random Draft is split between ranked and unranked and it's difficult to find a match in this game mode. That's a random example but it happens with many MMORPGs that start introducing more and more options... You can never find dungeons in the WoW expansions prior to level 50 for instance because there's too many optional options instead of forcing people to queue for every single dungeon, that's what sets ESO apart in matchmaking and why it's good for people who like DLC to do random normals/vets.

SilverBride · July 2022

The fact that most players would queue for the easier and quicker choice just verifies that DLC dungeons are not what players want. I don't know how big a job it would be to tune them down but I don't think many players would complain if they did.

Kappachi · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that most players would queue for the easier and quicker choice just verifies that DLC dungeons are not what players want. I don't know how big a job it would be to tune them down but I don't think many players would complain if they did.

I don't have the same issue with people instantly dodging queue, it does happen but maybe 1 in every 30 dungeons. People seem perfectly willing to play DLC dungeons to me.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that most players would queue for the easier and quicker choice just verifies that DLC dungeons are not what players want. I don't know how big a job it would be to tune them down but I don't think many players would complain if they did.

From my experience most of the them are doing the same thing as me, just farming the rewards. They don't mind doing a DLC if it's given, but ofc prefer faster dungeons. If I was given the choice, I'd only queue the fast one because I am farming and that is what is efficient. But, I don't hate it when a DLC pops up. Given that the vast majority of my DLC dungeons complete, I imagine a lot of players feel the same way. But, that's not something it's possible to know, I suppose.

karthrag_inak · July 2022

Korsario wrote: »

- The stick, punish HEAVILY leaver of dungeons and keep a track of how much they do this if they are repeated offenders start taking actions against their accounts for harassment, punishing is never fun but is probably the most effective way to correct bad habits.

Lol. yeah, that's a big no there. This started happening then this khajiit would constantly queue and bail just on principle.

LashanW · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Splitting the queue doesn't make an impact on the people who are inside the dungeon. But it does create an impact on those who are trying to find a group. The less players in their queue, the longer they have to wait. And the wait times are already quite long. There's a ton of people, myself included, that would not be queueing for a DLC random.

Yeah ZoS doesn't seem to like splitting queues that may cause long waiting times for some players. It's good imo.

Kappachi wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The fact that most players would queue for the easier and quicker choice just verifies that DLC dungeons are not what players want. I don't know how big a job it would be to tune them down but I don't think many players would complain if they did.

I don't have the same issue with people instantly dodging queue, it does happen but maybe 1 in every 30 dungeons. People seem perfectly willing to play DLC dungeons to me.

This.
I also like it when I get DLC dungeons for RnD. They are more fun and it's a good opportunity to gradually fill the stickerbook. Never know when you might need that random DLC dungeon set.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

While having separate queu is a good idea base game dungeon should have lesser reward...

Why? There are already players who don't have DLC dungeons in their queue now. They don't get lesser rewards. Why should others who want the same be penalized?

Because they chose not to run the risk
Risk vs reward
Pretty simple and not that hard to understand

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nobody describes having to PVP to get pvp rewards as a punishment. Nobody describes having to finish the storyline to get skill points as a punishment. And nobody should describe having to run a random dungeon to get rewarded for doing a random dungeon as a punishment either. IMO.

The difference is that not everyone is forced to run DLC dungeons in their queues. Just those who spent money to subscribe and/or purchase DLCs.

That's only because nonsubscribers are not getting access to content they did not pay for. They don't get to run that content when they want to run it either.

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Well what you see is irrelevent...
The fact is the only reason they arent getting access to dlc content is in fact that they did not pay for them

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

Paralyse wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

While having separate queu is a good idea base game dungeon should have lesser reward
Base game only: 50% of current reward, you are removing the risk of running random dlc
Mixt: exactly like now
Dlc only: 125% of current reward, you are removing the possibility to get easy fast dungeon

You still cant get more than one queue reward per day so you have to choose between small fast reward or bigger slower reward

This would also have the benefit to have less of a queue lenght increase due to the splitting of the queue

Splitting the queue would REDUCE queue times for a random non-DLC queue.

Not so sure espesially if they reduce the reward as such as xp and transmut quantity to make up for the removal of risk
Risk vs reward

SilverBride · July 2022

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't see it as them as not getting access to content they did not pay for. I see it as them not being forced to run more difficult and time consuming dungeons.

I would like to run the random dungeon finder just for the fun of it, but I won't as long as these frustrating and tedious dungeons are forced upon me.

Well what you see is irrelevent...
The fact is the only reason they arent getting access to dlc content is in fact that they did not pay for them

So they get a much better deal than those of us who actually pay for things. That seems backward to me.

Ultimately this wouldn't even be an issue if DLC dungeons weren't more difficult and time consuming in the first place. Players will always do what is the most efficient for their time and these aren't. This needs to be looked at.