I have a healer, a tank. and 2 dps
I can complete all 4 random normals every day in 1.5 hours or (sometimes) much faster, even if some are DLC
Last night: normal FG1 x 2, Vet HM Bloodroot Forge, normal Blackheart Haven=about 1 hour 20m total, including a speedrun HM for vet BRF (already had the achieve, though)

The game's not going to give you everything for free, you're going to have to invest some time if you want rewards.
Alternatively, go AFK in cyrodill and repair keeps or milegates for a couple of hours, and get 50 crystals per toon just for tier 1 rewards (which would take you 3-7 days to earn on one toon via pve randoms and pledges)

In the meantime, if you don't want to deal with people leaving the dungeon, run premade/guild groups.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

...start handing out escalating punishments for those who overuse the leave button

That is very heavy handed for players who just don't want to spend their time playing content they don't enjoy.

The entire point of the random dungeon finder reward is to pay people for being willing to play content they may or may not enjoy, so that they can place them in a dungeon where that player is needed rather than where the player wants to play. People trying to do only do dungeons they want are exploiting the system to get the rewards, and in doing so disrupting the gameplay of those who need help. In my own personal opinion, that should be a punishable offense. I don't think it should disrupt other aspects of gameplay, but I do think if you won't absolutely refuse to random dungeons then you should be removed from the random dungeon finder eventually. You still should be able to do specific dungeons or access the dungeons by porting inside directly. But that's just how I personally feel about it.

I don't understand why you see it as an exploit because they are not manipulating or taking advantage of anything to benefit from it. It's just a player leaving a dungeon they don't enjoy. That is not malicious and should not be punishable.

But in the end, it is up to ZoS to find a solution for this issue that doesn't punish anyone.

Only "fix" I can think of at this point where transmutation stones are a thing is to make first random dungeon actually first - if you left the group you're done for today, come in next 20h for another try.

Probably locking it to "once per day per account" for transmutes alone (not exp) is also fine one to incentify actually helping people you were grouped with instead of using this feature as a selfish grinding method.

The real problem is replacement tool

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't understand why you see it as an exploit because they are not manipulating or taking advantage of anything to benefit from it. It's just a player leaving a dungeon they don't enjoy. That is not malicious and should not be punishable.

But in the end, it is up to ZoS to find a solution for this issue that doesn't punish anyone.

The reason that I see it as an exploit is because leaving is already considered potentially exploitative in most every multiplayer game that I have ever played. And the conditions for whether or not it is an exploit tends to be 1) is the person doing it gain some advantage at the expense of others. and 2) Are they leaving an excessive amount of time. I believe that leaving at every single DLC dungeon in a way that is disruptive to the express purpose of the game mode fits both of those criteria. Leaving is for stuff like hating one particular dungeon, or having teammates that you don't gel with, not for only getting dungeons you want to play in an random game mode. Therefore, I do consider it an exploit. And think people should be punished.

I can understand why some don't agree with me, especially in light of the lack of separate queues or a better source of transmute crystals. The transmute crystals in particular I am sympathetic towards and believe should be available in an alternative form.

But I do feel they are exploiting a game mechanic, in a way that is incredibly disruptive to the play of others.

I've never seen leaving a dungeon being considered an exploit in any other MMO I've played. Nor do I agree that the player leaving is doing it to gain advantage at the expense of others. What advantage?

I don't run random dungeons but I would if they didn't include DLC dungeons. Nor will I drop my ESO+ just for to avoid them. Which brings up another point, if non subscribers don't have to get DLC dungeons in their queues why do players who are paying subs to play have to?

They need to give all players the same choice.

Not necessarily leaving a dungeon, but leaving various game modes. The RND is a game mode. The advantage they gain is to be able to get the rewards for doing a random dungeon, while also not having to help with what is needed and instead doing only what they want to do. Which is the opposite purpose of the game mode. The expense of others is that it's majorly disruptive to the gameplay to have leavers constantly in your dungeons. It's clearly caused a lot of problems for other players.


All players do have the same choice IMO. Every player is queued for all dungeons they own and are high enough level to complete, with no choice in which dungeons they play. In exchange for giving up control of which dungeon they play, they are given a reward. People who don't have ESO+ are similarly not allowed to include DLC.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Roztlin45 wrote: »

How.to.do plan to distinguish between people.that leave and people that were disconnected? Really.nothing can be done to punish without also punishing the innocent. So.that is a no go. I understand the frustration but it is what it is. What your really asking is for people to be thoughtful and be courteous.

They actually can tell who hit leave group.

I think they should make it if you click that button, you can't join a new group until the old group clears or gets someone new. In this way, you can be made to wait just as long as they had to.

People who constantly click leave should be punished for gameplay sabotage by getting temp bans from the activity finder. And eventually disallowed from queueing random at all if they don't stop. They should still be allowed to do specific dungeons and all other content in the game. But if they are going to try to a sabotage a system designed others for their own personal gain, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to use that system. It's how many other games work.

Fake roles will be drewling over your suggestion. Plane and simple.

Punishing people for leaving is counterintuitive to the nature of a game -- to have FUN.
Worse, it would exacerbate the already-existing problem of fake tanks/fake healers queueing as those roles to get fast invites.

If someone gets a dungeon they don't want to do, because they don't think it's going to be fun, or for any other reason, whether or not they choose to stay is their choice, not ZOS, and not 3 other random people. Punishing them for not having fun is flat out ridiculous.

How about ZOS try to figure out how to make their playerbase better, like ingame mentors, dungeon mentors, trial mentors.

ESO need good advisers, who are neutral.

I agree some people do bail because they want an easy dungeon, where they can skip most of it and complain over they don´t have any gold or their friends is skipng so they almost dont get any loot.

Maybe it´s just downhill from here. The trialsceen is getting a beating. The dungeon sceen is getting some nice jabs. Are we looking at a minor knock out ahead ?

There are some good and desent people in ESO, who need some good advice/help before they get toxic, bail dungeons or as some do, they just stay away from them, because they had "too many" bad runs. Believe it or not. There are a few of them out there.

The more confi people get, the bigger the chance they don´t bail.

This game has basic game design flaw obviously.
Most of non DLC dungeon gimmick is same, there is no unexpected sudden death.
However DLC dungeon have it even in normal difficulty. There're many of unexpected trap everywhere.

If tank role doesn't know some gimmick of DLC dungeon, it will fail a lot. And sometime
DPS blame tank role. But It's wrong. Totally wrong.

I still can't understand meaning the red reticle UI marking which pop up above the player of Coral Aerie GD.
Because, UI design sense is simply too much bad. Or bad game design flow makes situation unreasonable.
Without youtuber tutorial video, we can't play it just as pure beginner.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Roztlin45 wrote: »

How.to.do plan to distinguish between people.that leave and people that were disconnected? Really.nothing can be done to punish without also punishing the innocent. So.that is a no go. I understand the frustration but it is what it is. What your really asking is for people to be thoughtful and be courteous.

They actually can tell who hit leave group.

I think they should make it if you click that button, you can't join a new group until the old group clears or gets someone new. In this way, you can be made to wait just as long as they had to.

People who constantly click leave should be punished for gameplay sabotage by getting temp bans from the activity finder. And eventually disallowed from queueing random at all if they don't stop. They should still be allowed to do specific dungeons and all other content in the game. But if they are going to try to a sabotage a system designed others for their own personal gain, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to use that system. It's how many other games work.

Fake roles will be drewling over your suggestion. Plane and simple.

Good point. I'd also be okay with punishing fake roles. I don't think what I said should be implemented by itself tbh.

So I guess it should be
1) fix the queue bugs
2) give a new source of guaranteed transmutes that's equally quick in base game. Perhaps the first time you do any undaunted daily per day (including Borgul) you get 15.
3) start issuing penalities for leavers and fakes

Removing the need for people to do them to gear up makes sense if there will be penalities. And with Random decidedly more optional, there won't be any reason not to punish people for being disruptive of the game mode for their personal gain.

Even good and established player´s bail and that´s a fact. The focus should be on. Why ? It´s not only new player´s, who bail.

I have been in ESO for six years and I do not want any fake roles in my group and if I see one, it´s goodbye . They make the player base toxic, they produce bad players.

In my book there is only one way doing this. Lock roles. Asure people if you enter via gf you are have a tank and a healer. The rest is skill, practise.

In premade groups people can do what they find best.

This problem runs a bit deeper. There's obviously a few facets to it, but I'm going to choose to focus on the transmute farmers.

ideal solution imho: Remove transmutes from the game.
Random norms, and even random vets to a degree have become extremely painful because it's been relegated to boring farming duty for every veteran trying to cobble a build together.

I've got 2000 hours. I'm gonna say some things that aren't really all that cool. I'd just like to preface it to say that this is what my gut wants. It's the Id. The little demon jumping up and down on my brain screeching.

if you think I want to spend any longer than I have to in fungal grotto 1 for the thousandth time you are wrong. I could beat it by myself on normal or veteran. Either is a cakewalk for me. Ya'll are glorified extra loot drops and a key to getting transmutes.
No tank? Good. 3 DPS is better than 2 for my goals. Group not sticking together and one dude rushing ahead to kill stuff? Wonderful, I'll go join him. Abusing bugs to skip trash pulls? awesome. I just want to kill the dude at the end who gives me transmutes.
Quit doing quests. That takes time. For the love of god please don't read them I want my transmutes. No, I don't want to do the optional boss I want my transmutes. Let's gooo.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not an arse about it. I know a lot of players are experiencing this stuff for the first time, or genuinely want to do a dungeon run. I'm the one out of my environment, not them. I'm sure as fork not gonna ruin it for them to finish a build sooner. It's just to show you the mindset of a dude who's done one too many random norms.

Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be trying to incentivize people like me to go do random norms every day?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Roztlin45 wrote: »

How.to.do plan to distinguish between people.that leave and people that were disconnected? Really.nothing can be done to punish without also punishing the innocent. So.that is a no go. I understand the frustration but it is what it is. What your really asking is for people to be thoughtful and be courteous.

They actually can tell who hit leave group.

I think they should make it if you click that button, you can't join a new group until the old group clears or gets someone new. In this way, you can be made to wait just as long as they had to.

People who constantly click leave should be punished for gameplay sabotage by getting temp bans from the activity finder. And eventually disallowed from queueing random at all if they don't stop. They should still be allowed to do specific dungeons and all other content in the game. But if they are going to try to a sabotage a system designed others for their own personal gain, they shouldn't be allowed to continue to use that system. It's how many other games work.

Fake roles will be drewling over your suggestion. Plane and simple.

Good point. I'd also be okay with punishing fake roles. I don't think what I said should be implemented by itself tbh.

So I guess it should be
1) fix the queue bugs
2) give a new source of guaranteed transmutes that's equally quick in base game. Perhaps the first time you do any undaunted daily per day (including Borgul) you get 15.
3) start issuing penalities for leavers and fakes

Removing the need for people to do them to gear up makes sense if there will be penalities. And with Random decidedly more optional, there won't be any reason not to punish people for being disruptive of the game mode for their personal gain.

Even good and established player´s bail and that´s a fact. The focus should be on. Why ? It´s not only new player´s, who bail.

I have been in ESO for six years and I do not want any fake roles in my group and if I see one, it´s goodbye . They make the player base toxic, they produce bad players.

In my book there is only one way doing this. Lock roles. Asure people if you enter via gf you are have a tank and a healer. The rest is skill, practise.

In premade groups people can do what they find best.

Well, if they started issuing penalties for faking, you would need to bail a lot less so there'd be hardly any fakes.

For good reasons I don´t know, what kind of info ZOS have in their loggs . In that case they need info on the role the player qued as and the player´s build.

Whent tha´t done they have to conclude if this infact was a fake role.

To trigger that they have to solutions.

1: Get additional staff members or those, who are employed to look through the loggs

2: Player´s have to report the fake role

I don´t believe it will work even if they have the info via loggs. The only thing that would work is lock the roles

Ittrix wrote: »

This problem runs a bit deeper. There's obviously a few facets to it, but I'm going to choose to focus on the transmute farmers.

ideal solution imho: Remove transmutes from the game.
Random norms, and even random vets to a degree have become extremely painful because it's been relegated to boring farming duty for every veteran trying to cobble a build together.

I've got 2000 hours. I'm gonna say some things that aren't really all that cool. I'd just like to preface it to say that this is what my gut wants. It's the Id. The little demon jumping up and down on my brain screeching.

if you think I want to spend any longer than I have to in fungal grotto 1 for the thousandth time you are wrong. I could beat it by myself on normal or veteran. Either is a cakewalk for me. Ya'll are glorified extra loot drops and a key to getting transmutes.
No tank? Good. 3 DPS is better than 2 for my goals. Group not sticking together and one dude rushing ahead to kill stuff? Wonderful, I'll go join him. Abusing bugs to skip trash pulls? awesome. I just want to kill the dude at the end who gives me transmutes.
Quit doing quests. That takes time. For the love of god please don't read them I want my transmutes. No, I don't want to do the optional boss I want my transmutes. Let's gooo.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not an arse about it. I know a lot of players are experiencing this stuff for the first time, or genuinely want to do a dungeon run. I'm the one out of my environment, not them. I'm sure as fork not gonna ruin it for them to finish a build sooner. It's just to show you the mindset of a dude who's done one too many random norms.

Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be trying to incentivize people like me to go do random norms every day?

It sounds to me you are in a pre-made group with to two friends. There should be no problems.

The problem starts if my level 15 healer friend tells me he/she just have been blown off his/her quest and gear loot. Then it´s about time the show stop. A group of three dds can decline a 4th group member.

svendf wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

This problem runs a bit deeper. There's obviously a few facets to it, but I'm going to choose to focus on the transmute farmers.

ideal solution imho: Remove transmutes from the game.
Random norms, and even random vets to a degree have become extremely painful because it's been relegated to boring farming duty for every veteran trying to cobble a build together.

I've got 2000 hours. I'm gonna say some things that aren't really all that cool. I'd just like to preface it to say that this is what my gut wants. It's the Id. The little demon jumping up and down on my brain screeching.

if you think I want to spend any longer than I have to in fungal grotto 1 for the thousandth time you are wrong. I could beat it by myself on normal or veteran. Either is a cakewalk for me. Ya'll are glorified extra loot drops and a key to getting transmutes.
No tank? Good. 3 DPS is better than 2 for my goals. Group not sticking together and one dude rushing ahead to kill stuff? Wonderful, I'll go join him. Abusing bugs to skip trash pulls? awesome. I just want to kill the dude at the end who gives me transmutes.
Quit doing quests. That takes time. For the love of god please don't read them I want my transmutes. No, I don't want to do the optional boss I want my transmutes. Let's gooo.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not an arse about it. I know a lot of players are experiencing this stuff for the first time, or genuinely want to do a dungeon run. I'm the one out of my environment, not them. I'm sure as fork not gonna ruin it for them to finish a build sooner. It's just to show you the mindset of a dude who's done one too many random norms.

Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be trying to incentivize people like me to go do random norms every day?

It sounds to me you are in a pre-made group with to two friends. There should be no problems.

The problem starts if my level 15 healer friend tells me he/she just have been blown off his/her quest and gear loot. Then it´s about time the show stop. A group of three dds can decline a 4th group member.

I'm not. I'm in the random queue, and I get put where I get put. That's the whole idea of introducing transmutes: getting players who normally wouldn't do a random norm to come back and do one.