Orgnum takes all the fun out of the game.

It might be a good idea to add a two power giving card to Treasury patron.

Thats an excellent comparison. It is very true that SR/HR has a lot more +power cards in other colors, so either ToT needs a new neutral unlimited bank of +2power cards (akin to Treasury) or each Patron should get a fairly low cost +power card.

kevkj wrote: »

Changing the Orgnum patron to only give you the Boarding Party card but not the Card>Power conversion when already favoured seems to be the most straightforward way to nerf it without making it useless. Still useful for an end-game combo + Boarding Party cards still good value.

I like that idea. Another thought I had was to make it so that it only gives the power when it moves from neutral similar to how the crow works. Or card + power only when it moves from neutral/unfavored but it's unusable when favoured.

Rahjin.....<sigh> as well.

- Tavern RNG that causes one player to be hugely benefited just because the other player purchased an okay card
- A single card being too powerful at a certain stage of the game

These are two reasons I stopped playing humans beyond the tedious slowness and the inability to read mail etc whilst doing it.

For most games you knew who had won about turn 7. The rest of the game was pointless and worse still it seems some people deliberately take as long as possible if they are losing hands so that the opponent dies of boredom and gives up

@Heartrage That seems reasonable too, but being able to trigger both effects constantly definitely seems too strong. It should only be one or the other at a time.

moleculardrugs wrote: »

Naomi_K wrote: »

Orgnum takes all the fun out of the game.

How do you unlock Orgnum? I just unlocked Ansei

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/607716/how-to-acquire-the-4-patron-decks-all-patron-cards-and-clues

Treeshka wrote: »

It might be a good idea to add a two power giving card to Treasury patron.

This is just to make the game even more of a 'race' to 40, I' rather see longer games where good decisions balance out lucky draws. A dedicated patron button w/ the 'barter' effect for example could help deny your opponent that armoury in the first place.


check out my other thoughts on the season so far here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/608771/one-change-can-save-the-game-thoughts-of-a-top-10-ranked-player-after-three-weeks-of-tot#latest

Rouz wrote: »

100%. Orgnum and Rahjin are probably the two most annoying Patrons. Rahjin isn't too bad, because at least with ansei/eagle/psijic there is a counter. But orgnum it's like "Ok I get one card that adds 5 power, time to spam patron". I've honestly just started leaving when I see it. I'd rather do anything else than spend 10-15 minutes dealing with that BS. Even if I do win.

You know Orgnum's power is BS when even the expert AI, very early on, decides to just continue spamming Orgnum patron, ignoring everything else. I haven't bothered playing a full game with that stuff yet, but by turn 3/4, its usual strategy of "turn gold into writ then buy something" shifts into "use Orgnum and then buy something if possible".
The player who uses Orgnum early on shouldn't be holding the other player hostage because of it.

Rouz wrote: »

Some slight balance changes + fixing the tavern should be the first thing they do the minute this season ends.

The tavern deck churning isn't as necessary as it is to re-do the cards/decks to some extent. A lot of cards on the table are very situational, and with only few cards actually getting you closer to victory, we're seeing all those games of chicken and people rushing to buy Armoury/Siege Weapon Volley/Rally if Pelin is in play (not to mention, that lower tier Pelin cards also generate reasonable amounts of gold for whatever the reason).

Some board games with deck building as one of mechanics either have built-in deck churning or people house-rule some format of it. There's some interesting discussions regarding it over at Dune: Imperium's forums on BGG, for example here, where the designer sheds some light on whether or not people should use some sort of deck churning mechanic. In general, Paul feels that players should always be purchasing something rather than passing and people generally find themselves in a better position if they purchase even a few low cost cards that don't necessarily seem strong (though, anecdotally speaking, my last D:I game resulted in my victory through sheer combat and influence, having purchased no new cards past round 4). On the other hand, other game mechanics like limited turns or just overall strategy and gameplay additions on top of deck building mean that the trade row doesn't necessarily see as much action as it does in pure deck builders and cards have more value, therefore - automatic removal of cards in the row makes sense to some.

However, when it comes to pure deck builders, I feel like removing one card every turn would introduce much more "luck" factor than players expect and it should be avoided at all costs. SR has a few challenges and Scenario cards that add a way to churn the deck (as well as the campaign in digital version), but generally the game does just fine with keeping the trade row as it is between turns. Instead, the game sees a natural shift in trade row cards by having players constantly buying (or removing them with Blob cards), as most purchases feel rewarding in the long run. Each of the four factions have both high and low tier cards that generate attack, most low tier cards - even in Blob and Star Empire - generate trade as well, so players aiming to synergyze one or two factions still get some economy going. Later in game, you see most high cost cards allowing you to draw more cards as well as deal a significant amount of damage, regardless of the faction. Bases and Outposts are fairly affordable, ranging from anywhere as low as 2 trade going all the way up to 8 - allowing you to set up some defences or some economy/offense going through the bases remaining around for a few turns if your opponent does not have a way to deal with it.

All of that is missing in ToT - some patron decks have very little power generation, forcing you to eventually invest into others if you hope to reach 40 prestige. Some cards have incredibly high value for an absurdly low cost, while others are very situation and very pricey. Investing too much into gold generation doesn't necessarily help you much, especially if there's no Crow patron in play, as there are no high cost cards that are as devastating as Brain World or Command Ship seen in SR. Agents are fairly weak for how much they cost and how much removal is out there - Psijic Relicmaster sounds good on paper, especially early on, but Dreaming Cave will do much more for the same cost. Between Black Sacrament/Ambush, Celarus' power and other forms of removal, I can't remember the last time I've seen Shield Bearer used as anything other than "get 6 prestige through Hlaalu power + play action". Even if your opponent doesn't have the power in his hand to deal with it, there's usually enough removal on the table.

There's also the small amount of taunts in the game - Pelin's taunts are somewhat durable, but cost a lot, making purchasing them early on difficult. Rahjin's taunts are beaten by SWV/Armoury that cost less and still have some power left over to generate prestige. Other decks don't even have taunts and the agents have small health pools in comparison to how much power some cards can generate. It also doesn't help that the damage doesn't need to be dealt in one hit to kill the agent. With how much removal there is, the agents cost too much. Clan Witch, for example, looks good on paper until you realize that at best you got to destroy a card and then used up 4 gold of your opponent's gold on removing it.

Overall, in SR it's rare to see a turn one row with 1-3 cost cards that are ignored in favour of explorer ships. In ToT, it's not uncommon to see 2-5 gold cards on the table ignored for a few turns because spamming treasury patron till you have 3+ writs in your hand is a more strategic play than buying some contract/action/agent that will not give you much of an advantage but potentially reveal a very high value card for your opponent to grab next turn.

Now, of course, I'm not saying that ToT should be just like SR. There's already enough features - keywords like Toss or Return, the concept of patron decks and powers and the whole prestige over health thing - to make it distinct. But it really does feel like the balancing could use some work. It is a digital game after all - re-printing cards to make them more balanced isn't an issue.

Skvysh wrote: »

....

I see what you're saying in regards to card and I agree. There are like 2-3 cards per deck that are the game changers. Gold generation can be good, but you gotta churn and burn cards with hlaalu and use raven. But against a well built hand with the major power generators like rally, night raid, armory, etc; it's gonna be an uphill battle. Especially if you have bad luck and every card you replace gets replaced by a better one. To me I see two solutions to this issue.

First one is reworking a bunch of cards. Like patrons are not supposed to be primary power generators. Hlaalu, Rahjin, and Celarus are the main ones that come to mind. That's not to say they have no power generation, but that's not their primary purpose. I don't think they intended for them be. When I see people passing up cards, I'd say 75% of the time the cards that aren't being touched in the middle are usually tavern cards. To me that's where most junk cards end up coming from because they're kind of situational and can be useless in a lot of situations.

Second one is the tavern movement. You're right, it introduces more RNG. But that RNG gives an opening for an opponent to potentially come back. The main issue right now, in my opinion, is when multiple rounds go by of nobody buying anything. Not only because of cards that don't have a use. But also because you need to be set up to not only buy one card, but buy what replaces it. Many games, this is not feasible. Buying a 3 gold card then having it getting replaced by an armory or rally (5-8 gold) introduces a gold requirement for 8-12. Many players will not have this in one round unless their deck is already built up. I think that doing it based on player action instead of default every round too will help. Player 1 doesn't pull > Player 2 doesn't pull > When it is player 1 turn again one card will rotate > One card will rotate every round until someone pulls. This introduces a strategy of denying a rotate by buying and such. But right now people get an advantage then just turtle. That's the meta right now and its horribly boring.

To me such a huge rework of cards to make them all useful is a large undertaking. One I don't think is feasible in the short term. To me the second solution where a change to the tavern happens to introduce a bit more RNG per round to try to alleviate hopeless games could be a more feasible solution.

dmnqwk wrote: »

...

Yeah that's bull. The opponent would've been at a negative 3 gold every turn. Heavily reducing what they could've accomplished in terms of tavern purchases. And they wouldn't have been able to use the neutral card since it was being used with sorc. The minute he got that armory it was basically a win because he had him cornered. Either he try to build his deck and actually play the game or just die a slow death. There's absolutely nothing the opponent could've done.

Devs change Orgnum patron it's overtuned

I like the idea of having the favored state for most patrons have no effect. Obviously you would have to keep the one that gives +1 gold but I think it could work for the others.

I think for Rahjin you could stick -1 prestige on the curse card since you wouldn’t be able to spam your opponent with it once you are favored. Make it so the curse cannot be cleaned with treasury either, but instead has to be removed with ragpicker or another similar card.