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Upcoming Weapon Skill Line improvements this year (that I would like to see)

  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    Dracane wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

    I wish they'd do that too. However i made these changes with what i think zos's direction is.

    I actually think something like 'wielding X staff increases your X damage by Y%' is more in line with ZOS's current direction.

    Yeah but then that'd involve removing the block cost which as you can see some people don't want.

    It doesn't have to. I am a frost staff tank and wouldn't frost staff to lose any of its utility.
    It's as easy as making Ancient Knowledge grant a flat 10% damage all around and then give each staff type a unique extra. Like Fire deals more damage to burning targets or whatever.

    That provides problems in pvp though. It's probably just easier overall to forget the change to tri focus and just focus on the rest of the changes as they would undoubtedly be more beneficial to users of the frost staff while not causing as much of a divide. Icy rage would be fantastic for any role, the change to unstable wall is a significant help for frost dps and the frost impulse change is undoubtedly better than the current joke that is minor protection.

    So your interest is only frost staff as always. For a moment I thought you had an actual interest in making destruction staff better all around, not just frost warden. The pitch surely evoced that impression. .)

    if my interest was only frost staff, then why would i have included changes to the shock and resto staves as well as the bow? the included frost staff changes would certainly make it better for both tanking and dps and the shock staff changes increase it's single target dps as well as providing it a good spammable.
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on May 23, 2022 5:15AM
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Ashanne
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    Ice staff magicka blocking is for meme builds only so i hope they remove that
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    Ashanne wrote: »
    Ice staff magicka blocking is for meme builds only so i hope they remove that

    Same. But if they added it to a slotted red cp with additional cost reduction, those builds would at least have the ability to use it in endgame pve and in cp pvp. But it's definitely not a good idea to keep on tri focus as it is still the only passive in the game that actually hurts the user in more cases than it helps.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • gariondavey
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    Some really good suggestions here. Excellent write up. The ice staff block cp suggestion wasn't good though, due to no cp pvp existing. Other than that I am pretty on board with everything in here.
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • Marginis
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    Arthtur wrote: »
    "Tri Focus:
    Removed the Frost Staff magicka block cost."
    "This effect will instead be included as a new slottable red CP"
    After that i stopped reading. U rly didnt think about what this means.

    1. There is no CP PvP. Do i have to explain more?
    2. There is only 4 CP slots. Why tanks have to waste 1 just because DDs want more? U want even less tanks in the game?
    3. Frost DDs already have damage (de)buff from using Ice Staff. Its called Minor Brittle. And thats the reason why trial groups WANT somebody with Ice Staff.

    In short - u are hurting tanks because DDs wants more.

    While you raise some great point may I highlight 1 thing:

    "Destruction Staff"

    Why are we trying to make Frost Staves into a pseudo tank, cc, support and DD weapon when the skill line is meant for damage users.

    In a perfect world, we would have an Alteration Staff for magicka tanks instead.

    You think that frost staves are meant for damage. Not everyone feels that way. ZoS certainly wants to make the elements have different properties - and frost seems to be defensive/support. I mean, across the board, too - the warden skill line is clearly for tanking. Just because it's different from TESV doesn't mean it's incorrect.
    Ashanne wrote: »
    Ice staff magicka blocking is for meme builds only so i hope they remove that

    Just because a build doesn't match the meta doesn't make it a "meme build". It's only just a gimmick if the only builds you can make are ones you find off the internet because everyone else is using them.
    @Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.
  • Mr_Stach
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    Gonna get Lore Heavy for a second:
    Destruction is one of the Schools of Magicka that exist in The Elder Scrolls series. It is the mastery of the spell effects that "harm living and unliving things, and include elemental damage, draining, damaging, vulnerability, and disintegration magical effects."

    Destruction Staves are ESO's branch of Destruction Magic. Their flavor should not be mixed up with the other Schools of Magic.

    Personally if Zos were to really care for Lore matching with Gameplay, the effects tanks would want come from the Alteration School of Magic.

    Now we've asked for an Alteration Staff skill line for a long time. I doubt it will ever come. In the meantime, Frost is some kind of Bastardized mix of Destruction and Alteration.

    We can make do. What do Frost Tanks really need? A Taunt and basically Barricade. Maybe Impulse if you really wanna. But that's really it. Magicka Blocking is neat and we don't need to take that away.

    What we do need though is every elemental damage type to be effective at Damage.

    Warden has the Highest Elemental Damage Bonus in the Game at +10% Frost Damage, and you want to say that Winter's Embrace isn't for Damage.

    If Zos wants some skill effects to be Tank oriented, fine. We have that now with some morphs in Destruction Staff. But let the other side be Damage. There's 0 Downsides.
    Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main

    Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
    The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    Some really good suggestions here. Excellent write up. The ice staff block cp suggestion wasn't good though, due to no cp pvp existing. Other than that I am pretty on board with everything in here.

    i understand about the tri focus change as it's a pretty split topic and i've just crossed out the suggestion, however, i wanted to get your further opinions on the changes you did like? were there any outliers? why did they seem good?
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on May 24, 2022 11:37PM
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Elendir2am
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    Ashanne wrote: »
    Ice staff magicka blocking is for meme builds only so i hope they remove that

    Tank at portal of vCR is responsible for "Elemental Drain" on crystals. It is much easier with ice staff as it is.
    Mr_Stach wrote: »
    Warden has the Highest Elemental Damage Bonus in the Game at +10% Frost Damage, and you want to say that Winter's Embrace isn't for Damage.

    It is highest elemental bonus to compensate that Ice staff and Winter's Embrace skills are not primarily for DD. Changing ice staff from tank to DD would need change this bonus as well.
  • Browiseth
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    i feel like it's high time flurry finally became a worthwhile skill. visually it's the most "dual-wieldy" skill in the dual wield skill line (what could be more emblematic of dual wielding than rapidly poking people with multiple weapons at high velocity?" and it's set up to be the definitive spammable for dual wielding characters (first skill in the tree, very self explanatory and thematically appropriate for the playstyle) and yet it's always paled in comparison to class-specific spammables or even skills in its own skill line.

    i think the actual channel time of the skill is fine, but the damage just doesn't cut it. i honestly couldn't begin to suggest specific percentage increases the skill should get in terms of damage, but one change i think would be good would be to add a snare effect to either one of the morphs or the base skill so it can see some use in pvp. i think a big downside it has is that most of the damage is in the final hit, which for a player seeing it coming can fairly easily dodge if they need to to avoid the brunt of the attack. adding a snare effect would make it feasible you could lock someone down and eventually force them to have to deal with the attack.

    tl;dr raise flurry's base damage for pve purposes and add a snare for pvp purposes and inevitably run into issues when those two buffs coincide to make the skill overpowered in pvp

    side note: balance pve and pvp separately
    skingrad when zoscharacters:
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  • gariondavey
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    Some really good suggestions here. Excellent write up. The ice staff block cp suggestion wasn't good though, due to no cp pvp existing. Other than that I am pretty on board with everything in here.

    i understand about the tri focus change as it's a pretty split topic and i've just crossed out the suggestion, however, i wanted to get your further opinions on the changes you did like? were there any outliers? why did they seem good?

    It was all pretty solid tbh
    Changes that coincide with what those abilities should be doing
    Edited by gariondavey on May 27, 2022 7:14PM
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    Some really good suggestions here. Excellent write up. The ice staff block cp suggestion wasn't good though, due to no cp pvp existing. Other than that I am pretty on board with everything in here.

    i understand about the tri focus change as it's a pretty split topic and i've just crossed out the suggestion, however, i wanted to get your further opinions on the changes you did like? were there any outliers? why did they seem good?

    It was all pretty solid tbh
    Changes that coincide with what those abilities should be doing

    I see.

    Additionally I've cleared up some wording in some of the sections of destruction staff and restoration staff.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • WoppaBoem
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    That snipe is horrible please no 😱 but good stuff in there tho overall thank you 👍
    Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only
  • Thecompton73
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger.
    If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose. Otherwise make Ice staves damage focused and introduce a new "Earth/nature" stave which would allow us to summon rock barriers/plants/animals for tanking.
    Edited by Thecompton73 on May 29, 2022 8:14PM
  • Mr_Stach
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    If they were going to go that route, make the Alteration skill line instead. The Destruction Staff can be you know...... for DESTRUCTION

    Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main

    Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
    The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Thecompton73
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Hehe, when I post you gotta give it a few minutes before responding as a former English major I almost always make a few edits as I reread what I've posted. For example read my updated post.
  • Thecompton73
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    And further frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?
    Edited by Thecompton73 on May 29, 2022 8:22PM
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on May 29, 2022 8:22PM
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    WoppaBoem wrote: »
    That snipe is horrible please no 😱 but good stuff in there tho overall thank you 👍

    Can you please elaborate on why you feel like it's horrible?
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Thecompton73
    Thecompton73
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.
  • Mr_Stach
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    Destruction Staff is ESOs interpretation of the Destruction School of Magic that is present in all ES Games. Elemental (Fire, Lightning, AND Frost) are all constituted as Destruction Magic. You can't just Rip Frost out of the equation because it's convenient.
    Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main

    Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
    The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on May 29, 2022 8:26PM
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Thecompton73
    Thecompton73
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.

    While I'd like them to lean fully into dpsing, when it comes to the tanking application of the skill line, changing it from how the line is currently set up will inevitably hurt either dps or tanks if they were to lean into 1 direction. I think if they want to keep this split dps/tanking/support direction, then how the line is currently set up will suffice. It's not the best at dpsing but brittle creates a niche for it to exist.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Thecompton73
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.

    While I'd like them to lean fully into dpsing, when it comes to the tanking application of the skill line, changing it from how the line is currently set up will inevitably hurt either dps or tanks if they were to lean into 1 direction. I think if they want to keep this split dps/tanking/support direction, then how the line is currently set up will suffice. It's not the best at dpsing but brittle creates a niche for it to exist.

    Yes but if part of the power budget wasn't split into tanking options applying brittle could be what makes Ice DPS just as viable as other destruction staves, rather than being relegated to a niche. I'm more a PvP player but I'd be willing to bet high end trail groups aren't likely to allow more than one person using Ice stave in a group and that is likely the tank applying brittle from their backbar. If it's going to be included under the destruction staff skill line it should be just as viable a damage dealing weapon in its own right.
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.

    While I'd like them to lean fully into dpsing, when it comes to the tanking application of the skill line, changing it from how the line is currently set up will inevitably hurt either dps or tanks if they were to lean into 1 direction. I think if they want to keep this split dps/tanking/support direction, then how the line is currently set up will suffice. It's not the best at dpsing but brittle creates a niche for it to exist.

    Yes but if part of the power budget wasn't split into tanking options applying brittle could be what makes Ice DPS just as viable as other destruction staves, rather than being relegated to a niche. I'm more a PvP player but I'd be willing to bet high end trail groups aren't likely to allow more than one person using Ice stave in a group and that is likely the tank applying brittle from their backbar. If it's going to be included under the destruction staff skill line it should be just as viable a damage dealing weapon in its own right.

    I totally understand how you feel and it's certainly true that only 1 ice staff is generally desired in groups, however, adjusting passives away from what they are now in order to make them for dps is bound to be incredibly devisive between the 2 groups that use it. I definitely want it to be purely for dps. But I know zos doesn't have the same goal. I like to make suggestions that i think best line up with how i think zos should go about things while also keeping with what i think their vision is. Though i suppose my suggestions for winter's embrace don't do that since i don't think anyone knows what the hell is going on with that line. Not even zos themselves.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Thecompton73
    Thecompton73
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.

    While I'd like them to lean fully into dpsing, when it comes to the tanking application of the skill line, changing it from how the line is currently set up will inevitably hurt either dps or tanks if they were to lean into 1 direction. I think if they want to keep this split dps/tanking/support direction, then how the line is currently set up will suffice. It's not the best at dpsing but brittle creates a niche for it to exist.

    Yes but if part of the power budget wasn't split into tanking options applying brittle could be what makes Ice DPS just as viable as other destruction staves, rather than being relegated to a niche. I'm more a PvP player but I'd be willing to bet high end trail groups aren't likely to allow more than one person using Ice stave in a group and that is likely the tank applying brittle from their backbar. If it's going to be included under the destruction staff skill line it should be just as viable a damage dealing weapon in its own right.

    I totally understand how you feel and it's certainly true that only 1 ice staff is generally desired in groups, however, adjusting passives away from what they are now in order to make them for dps is bound to be incredibly devisive between the 2 groups that use it. I definitely want it to be purely for dps. But I know zos doesn't have the same goal. I like to make suggestions that i think best line up with how i think zos should go about things while also keeping with what i think their vision is. Though i suppose my suggestions for winter's embrace don't do that since i don't think anyone knows what the hell is going on with that line. Not even zos themselves.

    The two groups that use it are 1) DPS players that enjoy the theme and would like it to be more viable for its original role and 2) Tanks that use it because of the utility and would be just as happy, probably even happier, to use a new magica tanking stave that was designed and dedicated to the role rather than a tacked on set of passives that modified an existing DPS weapon as an afterthought that was introduced years into the games existence.
    Edited by Thecompton73 on May 29, 2022 9:58PM
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.

    While I'd like them to lean fully into dpsing, when it comes to the tanking application of the skill line, changing it from how the line is currently set up will inevitably hurt either dps or tanks if they were to lean into 1 direction. I think if they want to keep this split dps/tanking/support direction, then how the line is currently set up will suffice. It's not the best at dpsing but brittle creates a niche for it to exist.

    Yes but if part of the power budget wasn't split into tanking options applying brittle could be what makes Ice DPS just as viable as other destruction staves, rather than being relegated to a niche. I'm more a PvP player but I'd be willing to bet high end trail groups aren't likely to allow more than one person using Ice stave in a group and that is likely the tank applying brittle from their backbar. If it's going to be included under the destruction staff skill line it should be just as viable a damage dealing weapon in its own right.

    I totally understand how you feel and it's certainly true that only 1 ice staff is generally desired in groups, however, adjusting passives away from what they are now in order to make them for dps is bound to be incredibly devisive between the 2 groups that use it. I definitely want it to be purely for dps. But I know zos doesn't have the same goal. I like to make suggestions that i think best line up with how i think zos should go about things while also keeping with what i think their vision is. Though i suppose my suggestions for winter's embrace don't do that since i don't think anyone knows what the hell is going on with that line. Not even zos themselves.

    The two groups that use it are 1) DPS players that enjoy the theme and would like it to be more viable for its original role and 2) Tanks that use it because of the utility and would be just as happy, probably even happier, to use a new magica tanking stave that was designed and dedicated to the role rather than a tacked on set of passives that modified an existing DPS weapon as an afterthought that was introduced years into the games existence.

    Until they show us that they are willing to make new weapons it's probably best to stick with what the general idea for the line is now
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Thecompton73
    Thecompton73
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.

    While I'd like them to lean fully into dpsing, when it comes to the tanking application of the skill line, changing it from how the line is currently set up will inevitably hurt either dps or tanks if they were to lean into 1 direction. I think if they want to keep this split dps/tanking/support direction, then how the line is currently set up will suffice. It's not the best at dpsing but brittle creates a niche for it to exist.

    Yes but if part of the power budget wasn't split into tanking options applying brittle could be what makes Ice DPS just as viable as other destruction staves, rather than being relegated to a niche. I'm more a PvP player but I'd be willing to bet high end trail groups aren't likely to allow more than one person using Ice stave in a group and that is likely the tank applying brittle from their backbar. If it's going to be included under the destruction staff skill line it should be just as viable a damage dealing weapon in its own right.

    I totally understand how you feel and it's certainly true that only 1 ice staff is generally desired in groups, however, adjusting passives away from what they are now in order to make them for dps is bound to be incredibly devisive between the 2 groups that use it. I definitely want it to be purely for dps. But I know zos doesn't have the same goal. I like to make suggestions that i think best line up with how i think zos should go about things while also keeping with what i think their vision is. Though i suppose my suggestions for winter's embrace don't do that since i don't think anyone knows what the hell is going on with that line. Not even zos themselves.

    The two groups that use it are 1) DPS players that enjoy the theme and would like it to be more viable for its original role and 2) Tanks that use it because of the utility and would be just as happy, probably even happier, to use a new magica tanking stave that was designed and dedicated to the role rather than a tacked on set of passives that modified an existing DPS weapon as an afterthought that was introduced years into the games existence.

    Until they show us that they are willing to make new weapons it's probably best to stick with what the general idea for the line is now

    Given the track record for them listening to us I'd say either suggestion is about as likely to be implemented. Therefore I'll advocate for what I really think would improve the game rather than compromising.
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    If Ice staves are truly meant to be for tanking/support the most sensible thing to do would be to split them off completely from the destruction staff skill line and just make them their own skill line with completely separate skills and passives.
    As is it's analogous to what it would be like having S&B fall under the DW skill line with a passive that slightly changes the skills when you equip a shield instead of a second sword/axe/mace/dagger. If Ice staves are to be a legit tanking weapon they should also have a set of skills and passives dedicated to the purpose.

    They do intend frost dps to exist as well so doing that would entirely cripple dps builds.

    Frost DPS currently is far inferior to both lightning and fire, it's basically for RP so how exactly would that destroy any serious DPS build?

    Brittle dps builds do exist and aren't a joke. But they are a bit behind other dps builds.

    Brittle builds basically exist as more of a support role than a DPS role. They're there to buff the damage of the true DPS builds.

    While that's true, they're also not hugely behind, themselves.

    My true point is right now Ice staves are split between two roles and because of the "power budget" concept don't perform either as well as the pure options available. As I suggested in my edited post I'd be just as happy, actually even more, if they made Ice DPS a serious contender for DPS and gave us another staff type for magica tanking.

    While I'd like them to lean fully into dpsing, when it comes to the tanking application of the skill line, changing it from how the line is currently set up will inevitably hurt either dps or tanks if they were to lean into 1 direction. I think if they want to keep this split dps/tanking/support direction, then how the line is currently set up will suffice. It's not the best at dpsing but brittle creates a niche for it to exist.

    Yes but if part of the power budget wasn't split into tanking options applying brittle could be what makes Ice DPS just as viable as other destruction staves, rather than being relegated to a niche. I'm more a PvP player but I'd be willing to bet high end trail groups aren't likely to allow more than one person using Ice stave in a group and that is likely the tank applying brittle from their backbar. If it's going to be included under the destruction staff skill line it should be just as viable a damage dealing weapon in its own right.

    I totally understand how you feel and it's certainly true that only 1 ice staff is generally desired in groups, however, adjusting passives away from what they are now in order to make them for dps is bound to be incredibly devisive between the 2 groups that use it. I definitely want it to be purely for dps. But I know zos doesn't have the same goal. I like to make suggestions that i think best line up with how i think zos should go about things while also keeping with what i think their vision is. Though i suppose my suggestions for winter's embrace don't do that since i don't think anyone knows what the hell is going on with that line. Not even zos themselves.

    The two groups that use it are 1) DPS players that enjoy the theme and would like it to be more viable for its original role and 2) Tanks that use it because of the utility and would be just as happy, probably even happier, to use a new magica tanking stave that was designed and dedicated to the role rather than a tacked on set of passives that modified an existing DPS weapon as an afterthought that was introduced years into the games existence.

    Until they show us that they are willing to make new weapons it's probably best to stick with what the general idea for the line is now

    Given the track record for them listening to us I'd say either suggestion is about as likely to be implemented.

    Lmao yeah that's BIIIIG true.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
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