Upcoming Weapon Skill Line improvements this year (that I would like to see)

ESO_Nightingale

Keeping in mind what Gilliam said during the update 34 combat preview:

Our focus in this upcoming update is improving morph options to be closer in power to each other. One of the immediate fallouts from the hybrid pass of abilities in the last update (Update 33) was highlighting areas where previously binary morph options would now reveal more realistic power deltas, where choices were actually being made based on additional effects rather than which stat the morph utilized. This update’s pass is exclusively focusing on class abilities for the time, and throughout the rest of the year we’ll be sweeping through other skill lines with the same intention. Keep in mind that most of these adjustments will not be heavy-handed and will instead focus on tweaking values of effects with our set bonus efficiency calculator and standardization as guidelines.

I think it makes the most sense that we'll probably see a lot of changes to the weapon skill lines during update 35 or 36 (and whether or not they'll actually "improve morph options" is yet to be seen with classes but that is what it is.), With that in mind i really think it's time for zenimax to look at the ranged weapons as the melee weapons have had a significant number of changes over the years and are in a mostly healthy spot. the ones i would like to talk about are the frost and shock destruction staves and the bow, as well as the restoration staff. I'll be listing problems that i have with the skills and potential simple, and/or fun solutions to help out the ranged weapons.

Tooltips were made by editing client-side HTML from ESO Skills and are not indicative of the developers intentions of any of the skills or passives.

---

Bow

Starting with the bow, I think that at least 1 of it's passives are in significant need of adjustment. Unlike every other weapon, the bow is almost entirely focused on itself and it's own skills when it comes to it's damage passives. This is an outdated mindset to have and it restricts the use of the weapon from being a good general option. Some of it's morphs don't see very much use and so some changes will be made to hopefully improve their pick-rate and to open up more options for builds.

---

Passive Change Suggestion:

Long Shots:
Decoupled this passive from purely bow skills and reduced the value to 10%.

Tooltip:


Change Notes:

This will hopefully incentivize the use of a bow on classes or with playstyles that like to stay at longer ranges but don't like to use as many bow skills as possible.

---

Morph Change Suggestions:

---

Arrow Barrage:

Renamed this morph to Corrosive Barrage.
Changed damage type to poison.

Tooltip:


Change Notes:

Hopefully this will give poison builds a poison damage ground area of effect weapon skill for which to proc their passives/skills and/or item sets.

---

Focused Aim:

Renamed this morph to Arrow Salvo.
Reworked this morph to be a channeled spammable that fires arrows in rapid succession. Each of the 3 projectiles has a different effect, starting with ignoring enemy resistances and dealing physical damage, then being undodgeable and dealing poison damage and finally, with the last arrow being unblockable and dealing disease damage.
Tooltip:


Change Notes:

The intention of this change is to allow bow users to have an option of 2 different types of spammables rather than having a morph of snipe that is seldom picked over lethal arrow.

---

Venom Arrow:
Increased the duration of major sorcery and brutality to 20 seconds up from 10 seconds.
Tooltip:


Change Notes:

This change is about quality of life and to allow it to match other durations of sources of major sorcery and brutality.

---

Destruction Staff

The Destruction staff has been a staple weapon for the entire game's history. but for most of the history of the game, Flame Staves have been utterly dominant compared to their Frost or Shock variants. part of this is due to the existance of Engulfing Flames and also the recently introduced Encratis's Behemoth set. But another part of the problem lies within the Destruction Staff skill tree itself. The Flame staff is able to increase the power of it's own light attacks which often makes up a large portion of DPS during PvE single target encounters, while also having access to the most powerful damage dealing version of Unstable Wall of Elements, the only hard crowd control in the skill line, and the only execute. It is clear that it is the winner in a majority of encounters of all destruction staves. however, compared to other weapons such as dual wielding daggers, the Flame Staff does not always pull ahead. The most logical way to increase the pick-rate of non Flame Destruction staves is to directly help out flame's competitors. The Frost and Shock destruction staves.
Passive Change Suggestions:

---

Tri Focus:
Removed the Frost Staff magicka block cost.

Change Notes:

This effect will instead be included as a new slottable red CP in order to allow the Tri Focus passive to be taken by frost dps builds and to not cripple tanks who still may want to use their stamina to block on their frost staff bar.

There has been a lot of resistance to this change in paticular so while i won't delete the section, i will acknowledge that a lot of people don't like it. so i will strike it from being a suggestion.

---

Penetrating Magic:

No longer grants 10% spell penetration to destruction staff skills, now grants a flat bonus of 1500 Weapon and Spell Penetration.

Tooltip:


Change Notes:

Decoupled the 10% penetration from destruction staff skills, to make it a flat bonus of 1500 penetration while slotted, allowing medium armor characters to gain another source of penetration and to increase the overall usefulness of this passive in most situations.

---

Ancient Knowledge:

Increased the damage of shock staff light attacks by 10% while a shock staff is equipped

Tooltip:


Change Notes:

This bonus is intended to get the shock staff closer to flame staves in single target dps, so that you would be more incentivized, but not forced, to take shock staves for more area of effect orientated classes as opposed to taking flame staves nearly all the time, this bonus does not account for engulfing flames or encratis's behemoth, but it does help to even out the playing field a little bit more as currently shock staves are way behind.

---

General Suggestions:

---

Weakness to Elements:

Applying this skill and it's morphs now also gives Major Sorcery and Brutality for their duration.

Tooltip:


Change Notes:

This was done to provide more sources for Major Sorcery and Brutality. It was also put on the utility skill for the line in order to help increase the pickrate of the utility skill in more situations while also providing a nice buff to people who already use the skill.

---

Unstable Wall of Elements:
Removed the frost and shock bonuses from this morph and replaced them with the bonus that is currently unique to unstable wall of flame. however, the proc conditions are dependent on the status effect unique to that damage type.

Tooltip:


Change Notes:

This change will allow the damage dealing morphs of wall of elements to no longer have a clear winner with unstable wall of fire, as now all of them provide the same bonus provided that the specific status effect for each element is present on enemies to proc the respective walls. Please note that Blockade has not been changed and will retain it's existing bonuses.

---

Shock Staff:

The Shock staff has not seen much use in recent years due to often being inferior to the Flame Staff execpt against some trash packs. In the past it has been used in some pvp builds and also by more casual players to fufill a fantasy of a shock mage, however this is generally outshadowed by the Flame Staff and other weapons regardless. As seen in the passive changes to Ancient Knowledge, the goal is to allow the shock staff to be more useful overall in single target.

---

Destructive Clench:
Shock Clench:
Increased the base range of this version to 28 meters and increased it's single target damage to match that of Frost Reach

Tooltip:


Change Comment:

These changes will allow this skill to stand out as a shock based spammable for shock based dps builds similar to the change that was made during Waking Flame for Frost Reach. Unlike frost reach's damage over time, Shock Clench instead provides a very solid area off effect damage portion that will allow it to match a spammable like Silver Shards.

---

Frost Staff:

The Frost Staff has seen a lot of improvements over the last couple of years mainly due to the introduction of minor brittle and the glacial presence buff for warden. Warden is a natural prodigy of frost damage and brittle application and it loses the least of any class out of going with a frost build, with that being said, destruction staff frost skills are paticularly weak compared to their flame staff counterparts. this was entirely true until the introduction of the Frost Reach buff which showed that it was possible to cater for both Frost DPS and Frost Tank archetypes. With that being said, continuing in this direction would significantly help the power of the Frost Staff as currently the state of the passive damage is relatively sorted out. as shown before, Unstable Wall of Frost was given a direction where it would excel in dealing damage, where as frost blockade was not touched and so it can continue to be used by supports and tanks or by dps looking to support their group.

---

Impulse:
Frost Impulse:

Frost Impulse and it's morphs now deal additional damage to enemies who are stunned, taunted, snared or immobilised.

Tooltip:


Change Comment:

This change was made to provide additional damage for Frost Impulse in a way that is unique compared to the Flame and Shock versions. It now works better against enemies who have been inflicted with tank/cc-related effects which will mean an increase in damage for both frost damage dealers and frost tanks. Before, Frost Impulse and it's morphs only gave minor protection to the caster and allies around them, however this bonus was almost entirely useless for frost damage dealers and generally was not felt. Now, it should help significantly more against trash packs where you would be using the skill.

---

Destructive Rage:
Icy Rage:

Replaced the Immobilization provided by this skill and added 4 seconds of Major Brittle instead.

Tooltip:


Change Comment:

This morph's effect is currently made redundant by the existing playstyle of frost damage dealers as immobilization already occurs on chilled enemies inside of wall of frost, while this effect would be going away on unstable wall of elements, it is also sometimes detrimental to group situations where Icy Rage is used for damage, as it will root enemies on the outside of the ring and not allow approaching enemies to be grouped up properly. Instead, this morph now provides Major Brittle, giving another source for the powerful effect up to a maximum duration of 11 seconds. because of the crit cap, Major Brittle isn't always getting it's full value, however with this change, Major Brittle via Icy Rage could see use in trash pulls by tanks, dps or healers and within unoptimised groups or even during solo play in order to give a brief but powerful group critical damage bonus. This will also allow it to have a significant niche within groups unlike the skill functions currently.

---

Restoration Staff

Grand Healing:
Increased the duration of this skill and it's morphs by 2 seconds.

Tooltip:


Change Comment:

This was done for standardisation and will result in both morphs having 2 more seconds of duration.

Healing Springs:

Renamed this morph to Coalescent Springs to better fit it's new dual damage/healing theme.
This morph no longer returns a small amount of resources, instead it deals a minor amount of magic damage over it's duration.

Tooltip:


Change Comment:

This morph now also does a small amount of magic damage every second for 10 seconds in order to allow healers to proc their backbar weapon enchantments if they double-slot a restoration staff. It also doubles to give tanks another option for a backbar that allows them to be a tiny bit more supportive for their group and will allow for more creative build diversity across the board for supports. This change was also made with the intention to not invalidate healers that often feel left out as every other option that a damage dealer will have from other weapons will provide far stronger damage and supporting skills/passives, where as the restoration staff neither has any damage bonuses from passives, nor skills that do damage other than this 1 proposed change, Additionally, Tanks will be disincentivised to run buff skills such as combat prayer as there are already easier sources out there including from healers that do a far better job at sustaining expensive healing skills.

---

Force Siphon:

Applying this skill and it's morphs now also gives Major Sorcery and Brutality for their duration.

Tooltip:



Change Comment:

This was done to provide more sources for Major Sorcery and Brutality. Similar to the change done to weakness to elements, it was also put on the utility skill for the line in order to help increase the pickrate of the utility skill in more situations while also providing a nice buff to people who already use this skill.

This took way too long to write.

emilyhyoyeon

Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

ESO_Nightingale

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

I wish they'd do that too. However i made these changes with what i think zos's direction is.

Mr_Stach

I like these changes. I still think that there should be Magicka Based Melee to allow for more than just Destro and Resto. (Sword and Rune, *wink wink* Zos). But with Hybridization that'll probably never happen at this point.

I especially like the bow changes, I never really liked Snipe so the alternative play morph is nice and the increase to all ranged damage vs just bow damage.

Arthtur

"Tri Focus:
Removed the Frost Staff magicka block cost."
"This effect will instead be included as a new slottable red CP"
After that i stopped reading. U rly didnt think about what this means.

1. There is no CP PvP. Do i have to explain more?
2. There is only 4 CP slots. Why tanks have to waste 1 just because DDs want more? U want even less tanks in the game?
3. Frost DDs already have damage (de)buff from using Ice Staff. Its called Minor Brittle. And thats the reason why trial groups WANT somebody with Ice Staff.

In short - u are hurting tanks because DDs wants more.

Marginis

As much as these are well thought out and interesting ideas... this is NOT the direction I'd want to take things. Not only are there far reaching consequences there seems to have little thought put toward, but these things also actively disregard other playstyles in favor of the meta - or at least whatever OP's meta is.

MashmalloMan

Arthtur wrote: »

"Tri Focus:
Removed the Frost Staff magicka block cost."
"This effect will instead be included as a new slottable red CP"
After that i stopped reading. U rly didnt think about what this means.

1. There is no CP PvP. Do i have to explain more?
2. There is only 4 CP slots. Why tanks have to waste 1 just because DDs want more? U want even less tanks in the game?
3. Frost DDs already have damage (de)buff from using Ice Staff. Its called Minor Brittle. And thats the reason why trial groups WANT somebody with Ice Staff.

In short - u are hurting tanks because DDs wants more.

While you raise some great point may I highlight 1 thing:

"Destruction Staff"

Why are we trying to make Frost Staves into a pseudo tank, cc, support and DD weapon when the skill line is meant for damage users.

In a perfect world, we would have an Alteration Staff for magicka tanks instead.

MashmalloMan

Marginis wrote: »

As much as these are well thought out and interesting ideas... this is NOT the direction I'd want to take things. Not only are there far reaching consequences there seems to have little thought put toward, but these things also actively disregard other playstyles in favor of the meta - or at least whatever OP's meta is.

They detailed a lot of changes touching on multiple weapons, perhaps it would be more helpful to specify what you do or don't agree with because we're left to assume.

Most of the changes mentioned are smaller quality of life changes that don't seem to hurt any specfic playstyle.

merpins

Fixing and updating old or unused morphs is great, hopefully they actually go with this and make things better, possibly even changing some that aren't used completely. I'd wish for a third morph option for every skill, but that'd be a big event that would probably come during a DLC update.

Amottica

With the changes I read for destruction staff, which did not read each one, I would say no.

WoE makes that passive boring as it is essentially the same for each type of staff. Only the element changes. Might as well just have one staff type.

Tri-focus - no, the magicka tanking weapon needs to be done right. So it is much better to make an actual magicka tanking weapon instead of changing CP and continuing down this bad path. Probably just as likely to happen also. The other issue with this is tanks having to deal with another slottable CP. That does not make sense to cripple the tank like that in favor of damage dealers.

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Ancient knowledge change does two things. It shows my comment on Tri-focus is accurate as it keeps the tanking passive for frost staff. It also increased shock damage for only the top players since it relies on LAs to get the benefit.

Weakness to Elements, I do not think we need to homogenize all the weapons to give major brutality and sorcery which is the direction such changes are going. I also think balance is an issue since the skill would be giving those big buffs in addition to Major Breach. Doubt that will pass Zenimax smell test.

Arthtur

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

"Tri Focus:
Removed the Frost Staff magicka block cost."
"This effect will instead be included as a new slottable red CP"
After that i stopped reading. U rly didnt think about what this means.

1. There is no CP PvP. Do i have to explain more?
2. There is only 4 CP slots. Why tanks have to waste 1 just because DDs want more? U want even less tanks in the game?
3. Frost DDs already have damage (de)buff from using Ice Staff. Its called Minor Brittle. And thats the reason why trial groups WANT somebody with Ice Staff.

In short - u are hurting tanks because DDs wants more.

While you raise some great point may I highlight 1 thing:

"Destruction Staff"

Why are we trying to make Frost Staves into a pseudo tank, cc, support and DD weapon when the skill line is meant for damage users.

In a perfect world, we would have an Alteration Staff for magicka tanks instead.

1. Frost staff was meant for tanks while Fire and Shock for DDs. ZOS gave some love for frost DDs and now they want everything even at the cost of tanks. While i get it that Frost/Shock needs some love, hurting other playstyles is not the way.
While i can agree that Tanks and DDs weapons shouldnt have those same skill lines we have what we have.
2. New staff sound nice but its has big problems too:
- Tanks need to get that new staff. So even if they would add it they would have to wait for like a year before doing anything to ice staffs.
- Ppl would need to research traits and farm new staffs. And i wouldnt be happy about that research thing.
- "WTS PA New staff for 30kk!" i think thats explain some things too. It would be even harder to get some good sets for tanks from PvP.
- It would make all current backbar weapon for tanks a waste. So they would have to invest into new ones. Im talking here about upgrade materials. It wouldnt be too fair.
- There would be backlash. There are ppl who dont read forums and dont know whats going on so they would be pretty mad after loging in and seeing that their weapon is no longer usable for tanking.
- They would had to add new arena weapons.

Anyway thats not the point of the topic so i wont say more and i already said what i should. Just keep in mind that DDs arent more important than Tanks and vice versa. 1 playstyle should not lose anything in order to make other playstyle better.

Amottica

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

As much as these are well thought out and interesting ideas... this is NOT the direction I'd want to take things. Not only are there far reaching consequences there seems to have little thought put toward, but these things also actively disregard other playstyles in favor of the meta - or at least whatever OP's meta is.

They detailed a lot of changes touching on multiple weapons, perhaps it would be more helpful to specify what you do or don't agree with because we're left to assume.

Most of the changes mentioned are smaller quality of life changes that don't seem to hurt any specfic playstyle.

I would suggest it would lead to a clearer thread if each weapon was its own thread instead of bundling everything together. As such a general statement they presented is just fine.

Marginis

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

"Tri Focus:
Removed the Frost Staff magicka block cost."
"This effect will instead be included as a new slottable red CP"
After that i stopped reading. U rly didnt think about what this means.

1. There is no CP PvP. Do i have to explain more?
2. There is only 4 CP slots. Why tanks have to waste 1 just because DDs want more? U want even less tanks in the game?
3. Frost DDs already have damage (de)buff from using Ice Staff. Its called Minor Brittle. And thats the reason why trial groups WANT somebody with Ice Staff.

In short - u are hurting tanks because DDs wants more.

While you raise some great point may I highlight 1 thing:

"Destruction Staff"

Why are we trying to make Frost Staves into a pseudo tank, cc, support and DD weapon when the skill line is meant for damage users.

In a perfect world, we would have an Alteration Staff for magicka tanks instead.

You think that frost staves are meant for damage. Not everyone feels that way. ZoS certainly wants to make the elements have different properties - and frost seems to be defensive/support. I mean, across the board, too - the warden skill line is clearly for tanking. Just because it's different from TESV doesn't mean it's incorrect.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

As much as these are well thought out and interesting ideas... this is NOT the direction I'd want to take things. Not only are there far reaching consequences there seems to have little thought put toward, but these things also actively disregard other playstyles in favor of the meta - or at least whatever OP's meta is.

They detailed a lot of changes touching on multiple weapons, perhaps it would be more helpful to specify what you do or don't agree with because we're left to assume.

Most of the changes mentioned are smaller quality of life changes that don't seem to hurt any specfic playstyle.

I was speaking generally, so it should be taken that way. And as I said, the proposed changes may not seem to hurt any specific playstyles - at first - but there are so many possible ways they could, if one has the breadth of experience that they've encountered those relevant builds. The example of no-CP PVP losing out on magicka blocking, as mentioned above, is an excellent illustration of this.

Elendir2am

Any skill changes should be directed at "not used skills".
Frost staff skills (passive or active), used by tanks, arent "not used skills".

ESO_Nightingale

Elendir2am wrote: »

Any skill changes should be directed at "not used skills".
Frost staff skills (passive or active), used by tanks, arent "not used skills".

I changed skills that i perceived to not be used very much, or that i felt needed changes.

Dracane

In my mind, destruction staves should give +10% damage by default instead of fire and lightning giving 10% to one aspect of attacks. This is one reason why melee weapons are a lot more popular now, because not only do they have more base weapon/spell damage, but the bonus effects they give like penetration, work with all attacks. You don't have to make a choice to reap maximum benefit.

The difference between the staves should be more situational and utility based instead.
Penetrating magic is another thing. Maces and Mauls give you straight up penetration to everything, destruction staves only to their own skills which are rarely used as much and not nearly as powerful and versatile as 2handed or dual wield skills. So while melee weapons serve as great stat sticks, staves are virtually useless as stat sticks. (Even though historically, they kind of have such a role in RPGs) So perhaps penetrating magic could be reduced a bit, but apply to all damage while holding a staff.

Physical weapons also all contain cost reduction passives, while destruction staff has none. Perhaps it could grant 100 magicka recovery or 50 recovery to both while holding a staff (again, to make them worthy stat sticks too)

Lastly, I think it's outdated that bow, destro and resto have a whopping 236 less base spell/weapon damage than other weapons. Ranged attacks are already penalized as in that they are significantly weaker and more expensive than melee attacks. Having much less passive damage on top, is harsh and outdated.
Staves feel outdated and their attacks don't have the same impact and relevance in pvp or pve.

Dracane

Amottica wrote: »

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Not quite. Maces and Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything and almost compensate stamina gameplay for not using light armor. Giving destruction staves a little bit extra penetration, at least 1320, would go a long way to closing the gap between melee and staff weapons a bit.

There is a reason almost every parse and entry to Esologs is using melee weapons. Over 300 more spell/weapon damage and better skills are one reason. Eso has become a game where from a damage perspective, a mage is better off using a great sword or dual wield instead of staves. And that, that can hardly be the vision ZoS has for this game. This feels bad and wrong somehow.

ESO_Nightingale

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Not quite. Maces and Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything and almost compensate stamina gameplay for not using light armor. Giving destruction staves a little bit extra penetration, at least 1320, would go a long way to closing the gap between melee and staff weapons a bit.

There is a reason almost every parse and entry to Esologs is using melee weapons. Over 300 more spell/weapon damage and better skills are one reason. Eso has become a game where from a damage perspective, a mage is better off using a great sword or dual wield instead of staves. And that, that can hardly be the vision ZoS has for this game. This feels bad and wrong somehow.

and bows don't give much of a buff to non bow skills either.

Amottica

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Not quite. Maces and Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything and almost compensate stamina gameplay for not using light armor. Giving destruction staves a little bit extra penetration, at least 1320, would go a long way to closing the gap between melee and staff weapons a bit.

There is a reason almost every parse and entry to Esologs is using melee weapons. Over 300 more spell/weapon damage and better skills are one reason. Eso has become a game where from a damage perspective, a mage is better off using a great sword or dual wield instead of staves. And that, that can hardly be the vision ZoS has for this game. This feels bad and wrong somehow.

The passive you speak of is not comparable as it requires choosing specific weapon types to get that passive vs other passives. What is suggested here gives the penetration to every staff type.

That also homogenized the choice of staves making them more like each other which is very boring.

Dracane

Amottica wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Not quite. Maces and Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything and almost compensate stamina gameplay for not using light armor. Giving destruction staves a little bit extra penetration, at least 1320, would go a long way to closing the gap between melee and staff weapons a bit.

There is a reason almost every parse and entry to Esologs is using melee weapons. Over 300 more spell/weapon damage and better skills are one reason. Eso has become a game where from a damage perspective, a mage is better off using a great sword or dual wield instead of staves. And that, that can hardly be the vision ZoS has for this game. This feels bad and wrong somehow.

The passive you speak of is not comparable as it requires choosing specific weapon types to get that passive vs other passives. What is suggested here gives the penetration to every staff type.

That also homogenized the choice of staves making them more like each other which is very boring.

In the case of staves, I and OP believe that this is not the case. The uniqueness of staves right now does not make for interesting choices, but pidgeonholes. Every melee weapon is good for every job. They all boost all your damage in one way or another, staves don't.

Homogenization is in fact what staves need as a baseline. Then unique nuances can be added, that should be, as I said, less about raw damage but different flavor.

emilyhyoyeon

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

I wish they'd do that too. However i made these changes with what i think zos's direction is.

I actually think something like 'wielding X staff increases your X damage by Y%' is more in line with ZOS's current direction.

Amottica

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Not quite. Maces and Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything and almost compensate stamina gameplay for not using light armor. Giving destruction staves a little bit extra penetration, at least 1320, would go a long way to closing the gap between melee and staff weapons a bit.

There is a reason almost every parse and entry to Esologs is using melee weapons. Over 300 more spell/weapon damage and better skills are one reason. Eso has become a game where from a damage perspective, a mage is better off using a great sword or dual wield instead of staves. And that, that can hardly be the vision ZoS has for this game. This feels bad and wrong somehow.

The passive you speak of is not comparable as it requires choosing specific weapon types to get that passive vs other passives. What is suggested here gives the penetration to every staff type.

That also homogenized the choice of staves making them more like each other which is very boring.

In the case of staves, I and OP believe that this is not the case. The uniqueness of staves right now does not make for interesting choices, but pidgeonholes. Every melee weapon is good for every job. They all boost all your damage in one way or another, staves don't.

Homogenization is in fact what staves need as a baseline. Then unique nuances can be added, that should be, as I said, less about raw damage but different flavor.

And this would make things even less interesting as I noted.

Dracane

Amottica wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Not quite. Maces and Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything and almost compensate stamina gameplay for not using light armor. Giving destruction staves a little bit extra penetration, at least 1320, would go a long way to closing the gap between melee and staff weapons a bit.

There is a reason almost every parse and entry to Esologs is using melee weapons. Over 300 more spell/weapon damage and better skills are one reason. Eso has become a game where from a damage perspective, a mage is better off using a great sword or dual wield instead of staves. And that, that can hardly be the vision ZoS has for this game. This feels bad and wrong somehow.

The passive you speak of is not comparable as it requires choosing specific weapon types to get that passive vs other passives. What is suggested here gives the penetration to every staff type.

That also homogenized the choice of staves making them more like each other which is very boring.

In the case of staves, I and OP believe that this is not the case. The uniqueness of staves right now does not make for interesting choices, but pidgeonholes. Every melee weapon is good for every job. They all boost all your damage in one way or another, staves don't.

Homogenization is in fact what staves need as a baseline. Then unique nuances can be added, that should be, as I said, less about raw damage but different flavor.

And this would make things even less interesting as I noted.

It wouldn't. Right now, it's fire staff and nothing else or rarely lightning staff and nothing else. All the while leaving all non direct or non aoe damage untouched. Clearly inferior to how melee weapons perform.

I admit, we don't do a good job at specifying what those unique nuances for staves could be. So you're probably not convinced. I think the uniqueness will mainly come from class passives as soon as staves are equal damage wise. Sorcs would probably use lightning, wardens frost and DKs fire. You could also act in the style how those staves are currently utilized.

Fire can increase light attack damage by 5% and lightning heavy attacks by x%. 5% would certainly not be enough.

Tommy_The_Gun

I like the bow suggestion, but imho bow needs some essential buffs to be actually somewhat useful.

When the game was originally designed, bow was a stamina ranged weapon that offered less risk for stamina builds (since it is ranged), but less damage than other melee stamina weapons. That was the trade-off. But the problem is that now, after hybridization, because magicka builds did not had a dedicated melee weapon - destro staff is a superior option to use instead of a bow, even for a stamina build.

Basically speaking, you are better "archer" with destruction staff, rather than with bow.

Bow imho simply had lost its identity.
- Is not a good ranged single target - because it was nerfed since it was used in PvP.
- It is not a good support weapon. The only CC bow has is Bombard's Immobilization. It does not provide any group utility buffs & debuffs.
- One can make a point that it is still decent AOE weapon, but again - destruction staff does it better.

ESO_Nightingale

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I like the bow suggestion, but imho bow needs some essential buffs to be actually somewhat useful.

When the game was originally designed, bow was a stamina ranged weapon that offered less risk for stamina builds (since it is ranged), but less damage than other melee stamina weapons. That was the trade-off. But the problem is that now, after hybridization, because magicka builds did not had a dedicated melee weapon - destro staff is a superior option to use instead of a bow, even for a stamina build.

Basically speaking, you are better "archer" with destruction staff, rather than with bow.

Bow imho simply had lost its identity.
- Is not a good ranged single target - because it was nerfed since it was used in PvP.
- It is not a good support weapon. The only CC bow has is Bombard's Immobilization. It does not provide any group utility buffs & debuffs.
- One can make a point that it is still decent AOE weapon, but again - destruction staff does it better.

The changes here were to increase options for poison builds, to increase the general usefulness of the bow by removing one of it's bow skill specific passives in order to be a general buff and also to give an option between spammable types on the weapon. With a standardisation change to help venom arrow a little bit.

ESO_Nightingale

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Penetrating Magic. I would not complain but doubt the change happens to make it penetration for all instead of just staff skills because I think there is already a lot of magicka penetration available from what I have read in the forums during my time here (compared to stam).

Not quite. Maces and Mauls grant 3300 penetration to everything and almost compensate stamina gameplay for not using light armor. Giving destruction staves a little bit extra penetration, at least 1320, would go a long way to closing the gap between melee and staff weapons a bit.

There is a reason almost every parse and entry to Esologs is using melee weapons. Over 300 more spell/weapon damage and better skills are one reason. Eso has become a game where from a damage perspective, a mage is better off using a great sword or dual wield instead of staves. And that, that can hardly be the vision ZoS has for this game. This feels bad and wrong somehow.

The passive you speak of is not comparable as it requires choosing specific weapon types to get that passive vs other passives. What is suggested here gives the penetration to every staff type.

That also homogenized the choice of staves making them more like each other which is very boring.

In the case of staves, I and OP believe that this is not the case. The uniqueness of staves right now does not make for interesting choices, but pidgeonholes. Every melee weapon is good for every job. They all boost all your damage in one way or another, staves don't.

Homogenization is in fact what staves need as a baseline. Then unique nuances can be added, that should be, as I said, less about raw damage but different flavor.

And this would make things even less interesting as I noted.

It wouldn't. Right now, it's fire staff and nothing else or rarely lightning staff and nothing else. All the while leaving all non direct or non aoe damage untouched. Clearly inferior to how melee weapons perform.

I admit, we don't do a good job at specifying what those unique nuances for staves could be. So you're probably not convinced. I think the uniqueness will mainly come from class passives as soon as staves are equal damage wise. Sorcs would probably use lightning, wardens frost and DKs fire. You could also act in the style how those staves are currently utilized.

Fire can increase light attack damage by 5% and lightning heavy attacks by x%. 5% would certainly not be enough.

Yep. It would increase the use rates of the non fire staves. It's already boring that fire is so much better than them

ESO_Nightingale

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

I wish they'd do that too. However i made these changes with what i think zos's direction is.

I actually think something like 'wielding X staff increases your X damage by Y%' is more in line with ZOS's current direction.

Yeah but then that'd involve removing the block cost which as you can see some people don't want.

Mr_Stach

I think one of the Largest Issues with any kind of suggestions is some people want things to improve but they don't want the game to change. It's a hard line to walk along.

Dracane

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

I wish they'd do that too. However i made these changes with what i think zos's direction is.

I actually think something like 'wielding X staff increases your X damage by Y%' is more in line with ZOS's current direction.

Yeah but then that'd involve removing the block cost which as you can see some people don't want.

It doesn't have to. I am a frost staff tank and wouldn't frost staff to lose any of its utility.
It's as easy as making Ancient Knowledge grant a flat 10% damage all around and then give each staff type a unique extra. Like Fire deals more damage to burning targets or whatever.

ESO_Nightingale

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

I wish they'd do that too. However i made these changes with what i think zos's direction is.

I actually think something like 'wielding X staff increases your X damage by Y%' is more in line with ZOS's current direction.

Yeah but then that'd involve removing the block cost which as you can see some people don't want.

It doesn't have to. I am a frost staff tank and wouldn't frost staff to lose any of its utility.
It's as easy as making Ancient Knowledge grant a flat 10% damage all around and then give each staff type a unique extra. Like Fire deals more damage to burning targets or whatever.

That provides problems in pvp though. It's probably just easier overall to forget the change to tri focus and just focus on the rest of the changes as they would undoubtedly be more beneficial to users of the frost staff while not causing as much of a divide. Icy rage would be fantastic for any role, the change to unstable wall is a significant help for frost dps and the frost impulse change is undoubtedly better than the current joke that is minor protection.

Dracane

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Ancient knowledge is still horrible. Put the block reduction in CP and completely rework the whole passive. Something like wielding X staff increases your X damage by 5%. No more fire staff +10% bonus for all single target damage.

I wish they'd do that too. However i made these changes with what i think zos's direction is.

I actually think something like 'wielding X staff increases your X damage by Y%' is more in line with ZOS's current direction.

Yeah but then that'd involve removing the block cost which as you can see some people don't want.

It doesn't have to. I am a frost staff tank and wouldn't frost staff to lose any of its utility.
It's as easy as making Ancient Knowledge grant a flat 10% damage all around and then give each staff type a unique extra. Like Fire deals more damage to burning targets or whatever.

That provides problems in pvp though. It's probably just easier overall to forget the change to tri focus and just focus on the rest of the changes as they would undoubtedly be more beneficial to users of the frost staff while not causing as much of a divide. Icy rage would be fantastic for any role, the change to unstable wall is a significant help for frost dps and the frost impulse change is undoubtedly better than the current joke that is minor protection.

So your interest is only frost staff as always. For a moment I thought you had an actual interest in making destruction staff better all around, not just frost warden. The pitch surely evoced that impression. .)