"PVP" and "Cyrodiil" Gets you Banned on Twitch

joerginger · May 2022

Where do you see the "forum warning level"? I don't see anything here or at the ESO account page either.

SilverBride · May 2022

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Would just like to add regarding trigger-happy forum abusers of the 'report-post' option....

Most enlightened civilisations provide a mechanism for the 'right to face your accuser'. While I'd accept that may not be practicable in terms of an online community - although I certainly think it would significantly reduce the hostility of others and prevalence of reports if their anonymity was removed - I would think it prudent and fair that the text of any complaint is forwarded to the account of any post reported, regardless of moderator action.

This would be a form of calling out and could create hostility between the poster and the reporter rather than reduce it. It could also escalate the situation leading to more infractions.

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

joerginger wrote: »

Where do you see the "forum warning level"? I don't see anything here or at the ESO account page either.

...it appears at the top of your forum account page, where appropriate.

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Elsonso · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Would just like to add regarding trigger-happy forum abusers of the 'report-post' option....

Most enlightened civilisations provide a mechanism for the 'right to face your accuser'. While I'd accept that may not be practicable in terms of an online community - although I certainly think it would significantly reduce the hostility of others and prevalence of reports if their anonymity was removed - I would think it prudent and fair that the text of any complaint is forwarded to the account of any post reported, regardless of moderator action.

This would be a form of calling out and could create hostility between the poster and the reporter rather than reduce it. It could also escalate the situation leading to more infractions.

Yes, even if the name of the person who reported was removed, people would just assume, often incorrectly, that it was from the person they were interacting with on the forum. Not only could this lead to more infractions, but also against the wrong target, which does nothing but just spread the pain around to more people.

SilverBride wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

joerginger wrote: »

Where do you see the "forum warning level"? I don't see anything here or at the ESO account page either.

...it appears at the top of your forum account page, where appropriate.

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

I am curious, as well. For the same reason.

Ilsabet · May 2022

Looks like there's a new "Moderation" tab on forum account info. I presume the notes section is where things would show up for anyone who is not a perfect good doobie like me.

(Please pay no attention to the implications of the number of Insightfuls. Also someone please give me an Insightful.

)

I feel like "Invitations" is new too, but I'm not sure what that could be for. Maybe we'll be getting invitations to a new Darien fan club or something.

Also apparently I was last active on May 2.

Edit: Nevermind apparently this isn't new, but it's still neat for anyone who wasn't aware of it (like me).

deleted221106-002999 · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Would just like to add regarding trigger-happy forum abusers of the 'report-post' option....

Most enlightened civilisations provide a mechanism for the 'right to face your accuser'. While I'd accept that may not be practicable in terms of an online community - although I certainly think it would significantly reduce the hostility of others and prevalence of reports if their anonymity was removed - I would think it prudent and fair that the text of any complaint is forwarded to the account of any post reported, regardless of moderator action.

This would be a form of calling out and could create hostility between the poster and the reporter rather than reduce it. It could also escalate the situation leading to more infractions.

I made two suggestions: in the first case anonymity lost, I recognise your point; I doubt it would be workable but I am sure it would result in a dramatic reduction in knee-jerk or just jerk post-reportings.

In the second case/example - passing on the text made by someone reporting a post while retaining anonymity - this is only fair and reasonable, particulary from the perspective of attempting to appeal a decision. When appealing it's not reasonable to only be formulating a counter-argument where you don't have all the facts available.

I mean if someone wrote "I don't like this it smells funny" and you received a warning or your post edited because a mod was too busy to check and just went ahead and edited/warned account that would hardly be reasonable. But if in appealing the decision you could see that the associated comment was spurious noise then you could bring that to their attention. At it is now, you don't have that option and remain ignorant - any/all decisions would be simpler to uphold due to that lack of transparency.

Equally, if someone wrote "This post violates term X because it offends me in W,Y,Z ways" then at least, on reflection, the account holder facing potential censure could see an alternate viewpoint and withdraw or simply accept the censure as a reasonable action under the circumstances. I know I would.

As it stands now all you get is a copy of your post, a unilateral and uninformative assertion of compliance failure and censure with links to the terms - there is zero actual explanation. Given the mulitplicity of languages/cultures present in the forum this is an extremely short-sighted or narrow-minded way of proceeding, particularly given the propensity within the english language for multiple meanings/interpretations from the same statement.

As an aside, it was in regard to this latter issue of potential multiple meanings that I asked Terry White, cs manager zenimax, for the wording of the current terms to reflect moderator opinion rather than insist on false assertion of poster's intent, as actual intent is and can only ever truly known by that poster. Being told you intended something which know you most certainly did not is quite invidious to say the least.

SilverBride · May 2022

Ilsabet wrote: »

Looks like there's a new "Moderation" tab on forum account info.

The moderation tab has been there as long as I remember. It lists all the infractions that the poster has ever gotten and has a number for how many points each individual infraction is worth.

But there is no forum warning level at the top of our forum account page.

Ilsabet · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

Looks like there's a new "Moderation" tab on forum account info.

The moderation tab has been there as long as I remember. It lists all the infractions that the poster has ever gotten and has a number for how many points each individual infraction is worth.

But there is no forum warning level at the top of our forum account page.

O snap, I guess I just haven't been paying attention.

I assumed that was the new thing since it seems like useful info to have. I'm also not seeing anything referred to as a warning level. I presume that would show up in the interface for everyone even if you didn't have any warning points or whatever.

SilverBride · May 2022

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Equally, if someone wrote "This post violates term X because it offends me in W,Y,Z ways" then at least, on reflection, the account holder facing potential censure could see an alternate viewpoint and withdraw or simply accept the censure as a reasonable action under the circumstances. I know I would.

As it stands now all you get is a copy of your post, a unilateral and uninformative assertion of compliance failure and censure with links to the terms - there is zero actual explanation.

I completely agree that there should be an explanation of how the post was a violation rather than just quoting the forum rule, but we don't need to see the report for this. It would be difficult to keep them anonymous if the report said something like "This poster called me a name." because that would identify who made the report.

Also, sometimes there is no report and the moderators just caught the infraction.

deleted221106-002999 · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

This is an awesome improvement and greatly appreciated although I'm still unsure of what the numbers mean.

I'm prety sure this is the same data that a mod would see when reviewing an account; my only concern if this is the case is a potential skewing of consequence - benefit of the doubt' or 'innocence until proven guilty' might be compromised by the fact an account has extant warnings associated with it.

Also, as discussed elsewhere within the thread, there doesn't appear to be any indication if this reflects or includes any neutral/positive forum contributions. I very much doubt it, but it is encouraging to note that there is some sort of expiry which helps in personal account evaluation. What is still not clear to me is the formal warning system itself as that seems to possess an uni-directional entropy towards extinction - once started it seems it can only remain static or increase to the ban-point.

It's fair to say that at this point my forum account seems to be accelerating towards terminal velocity. I'm equally certain that those who understand how to 'play the forum' and being aware of this with any negative prejudice whatsoever would be only too delighted to boost that process.

Elsonso · May 2022

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

SilverBride · May 2022

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:
...This is an awesome improvement and greatly appreciated although I'm still unsure of what the numbers mean.

Thank you for the visual. I am guessing that is only there until the warning expires then disappears from the top of the page. I just never noticed it before.

deleted221106-002999 · May 2022

I think it's [forum account warning] new - I've never seen it before either.

It's a welcome and useful addition.

Ratzkifal · May 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

Yes. I think a level 2 warning experience in 3 days, but I might be off by a bit. I just know it's less than a week, or at least it was in my case.

spartaxoxo · May 2022

Even if it expires if you get another infraction after getting that they just ban you, regardless if the warning was over something trivial. That's what it means.

deleted221106-002999 · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

...but we don't need to see the report for this. It would be difficult to keep them anonymous if the report said something like "This poster called me a name." because that would identify who made the report.

Also, sometimes there is no report and the moderators just caught the infraction.

The non-reports is moot. The 'poster called me a name' could be edited/redacted to include salient information and retain reporter anonymity.

I still think it would be more useful - and, obviously, fair/reasonable - than not.

On the flip-side, from the reporter perspective, it might ensure they thought twice before hitting the trigger in the heat of the moment and hopefully encourage more cogent objections when they decide to go ahead with it, if they were aware that, should action be taken, the account actioned would be forwarded a [possibly redacted] copy.

edit: removed edge case last paragraph; not relevant anyway.

Elsonso · May 2022

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

...

Oh... uh... no.

Don't go there. Readers can use the Report feature, and no one participating in the thread can even observe they are there. Don't assume that this is a rare thing.

Edited to remove deleted quote.

deleted221106-002999 · May 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

Oh... uh... no. Don't go there. Readers can use the Report feature, and no one participating in the thread can even observe they are there. Don't assume that this is a rare thing.

I edited out; edge case as it was. Thanks.

Ratzkifal · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Even if it expires if you get another infraction after getting that they just ban you, regardless if the warning was over something trivial. That's what it means.

Well, I'm still here. So that's not the case. But who knows, maybe next time it'll be my time. At the very least for that last time I tried to appeal but didn't get a response, not from ZOS_Kevin either, but then again depending on how the rules are interpreted it can be argued that it was justified last time, so that might be why.

starkerealm · May 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

Yes. I think a level 2 warning experience in 3 days, but I might be off by a bit. I just know it's less than a week, or at least it was in my case.

Yeah, all of my 2pt warnings expired after 3 days. As my account doesn't appear to have any points associated, and my last infraction was in July 2021, yeah, points expire. It does seem to be geared more for dealing with someone who is consistently making trouble, rather than a few events scattered over years.

starkerealm · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This isn't a forum with that type of system, so talking about immediately triggering a 3 strikes rule doesn't apply. And multiple posts aren't one extended infraction, they are each their own infraction. Obviously it should take behavior across multiple threads to issue a ban, but doesn't mean everything you do in that one thread is one infraction. You can have multiple infractions within the same thread, which makes your behavior more likely to trigger a suspension.

@spartaxoxo, I think I missed this when you posted it. As the thread is currently discussion there is, in fact, a, "version," of a three strikes rule here.

Warnings will apply points to your account which expire over time. However, if you accrue enough points that can lead to a ban. So, a bad faith actor who wanted to trigger a ban, could attempt to report a user simultaneously over multiple posts, when those posts were spread out over a long enough period that the points would have fallen off naturally, with the intention of slamming the user with multiple simultaneous infractions. Sort of like a forum moderation lag switch, if you will.

So, there is a point to this where it is, at least theoretically abusable. As far as I know, the moderation team wouldn't be bamboozled by this tactic, but it could explain those errant old posts that occasionally see moderation.

SilverBride · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Warnings will apply points to your account which expire over time. However, if you accrue enough points that can lead to a ban. So, a bad faith actor who wanted to trigger a ban, could attempt to report a user simultaneously over multiple posts, when those posts were spread out over a long enough period that the points would have fallen off naturally, with the intention of slamming the user with multiple simultaneous infractions. Sort of like a forum moderation lag switch, if you will.

I am not saying this has never happened but I think it's the exception rather than the norm. I would guess that most players who report posts do so because the post was directly insulting them, which is a valid use of the reporting system.

Elsonso · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?

Of course, happy to help, with suitable redactions of my own, which I hope you will understand:

Expires. Interesting. I assume that the points expire on a date?

Yes. I think a level 2 warning experience in 3 days, but I might be off by a bit. I just know it's less than a week, or at least it was in my case.

Yeah, all of my 2pt warnings expired after 3 days. As my account doesn't appear to have any points associated, and my last infraction was in July 2021, yeah, points expire. It does seem to be geared more for dealing with someone who is consistently making trouble, rather than a few events scattered over years.

Is it a part of the forum software? Maybe something that is there but they don't use?

spartaxoxo · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Spartaxoxo, I think I missed this when you posted it. As the thread is currently discussion there is, in fact, a, "version," of a three strikes rule here.

Warnings will apply points to your account which expire over time. However, if you accrue enough points that can lead to a ban. So, a bad faith actor who wanted to trigger a ban, could attempt to report a user simultaneously over multiple posts, when those posts were spread out over a long enough period that the points would have fallen off naturally, with the intention of slamming the user with multiple simultaneous infractions. Sort of like a forum moderation lag switch, if you will.

So, there is a point to this where it is, at least theoretically abusable. As far as I know, the moderation team wouldn't be bamboozled by this tactic, but it could explain those errant old posts that occasionally see moderation.

The reason it doesn't work is that the mods go in manually and look at your mod history. They can see the dates the post occurred, what action was taken, etc. It's not an automatic 3 strikes rule like on those other websites. Multiple violations in the same thread is likely to result in suspension but that's moreso because it was a larger violation. Now someone digging into your account to make a ton of violations across multiple threads, rather than multiple ones in the same thread, could result in such.

Which is why I noted that multiple LEGITIMATE flags in the same thread is not abuse, but someone combing through your post history is one. Because at that point the mod isn't getting the message "This thread has a lot of commotion" but instead getting the message "This person is running amok right now across the website." It's intended to create a false perception and is thus abusive.

ETA:
Multiple flags where all of the reports were not legitimate and is only intended to make it seem as though you're guilty of extensive abuse, is ofc also abuse.

starkerealm · May 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

Is it a part of the forum software? Maybe something that is there but they don't use?

No, they use it. It's possible there's additional potential functionality they don't use.

SilverBride wrote: »

I am not saying this has never happened but I think it's the exception rather than the norm. I would guess that most players who report posts do so because the post was directly insulting them, which is a valid use of the reporting system.

In this case, I'm explaining why someone would abuse the system in this way, rather than saying, "someone is doing this." In fact, as I said, because all moderation is done by hand, this particular form of abuse is less effective (or completely ineffective.)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reason it doesn't work is that the mods go in manually and look at your mod history.

This is the key to stymieing most moderation abuse across the board. There's a lot of potential for abuse that starts to fall apart when actual humans are reviewing all of the reports, rather than algorithms. That does not mean people do not try. What I can't assess is how effective they've been.

spartaxoxo · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

. That does not mean people do not try. What I can't assess is how effective they've been.

Sure, but the assessment of that is whether or not the reports were legitimate. If you got hit with multiple, legitimate reports in the same thread, then you weren't abused. I just want to be clear because I don't want moderators to be taking action against victims reporting harassment from someone attacking them in multiple posts in the same thread. If the report is in the same thread and it's legitimate, it is not abuse

Victims shouldn't be afraid to report harassment because their attacker's multiple violations is somehow blowing back to hurt the victim's account instead of the harasser.

FeedbackOnly · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[snip]

At some point the points should expire? How about new years equals a fresh start?

[edited to remove quote]

FeedbackOnly · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Is it a part of the forum software? Maybe something that is there but they don't use?

No, they use it. It's possible there's additional potential functionality they don't use.

SilverBride wrote: »

I am not saying this has never happened but I think it's the exception rather than the norm. I would guess that most players who report posts do so because the post was directly insulting them, which is a valid use of the reporting system.

In this case, I'm explaining why someone would abuse the system in this way, rather than saying, "someone is doing this." In fact, as I said, because all moderation is done by hand, this particular form of abuse is less effective (or completely ineffective.)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reason it doesn't work is that the mods go in manually and look at your mod history.

This is the key to stymieing most moderation abuse across the board. There's a lot of potential for abuse that starts to fall apart when actual humans are reviewing all of the reports, rather than algorithms. That does not mean people do not try. What I can't assess is how effective they've been.

I believe it has to been effective to some degree or doesn't make sense on the current state of forums.

It was partly players fault in first place

deleted220614-000183 · May 2022

Can't wait when this toppic is closed by admins as a "Conspiration theory"
They are using "Conspirtion theory" explanation quite often recently.

FeedbackOnly · May 2022

Mods are doing a lot better

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605688/kicked-from-a-guild-without-warning-or-explanation-mild-rant#latest

Elsonso · May 2022

trpajzla wrote: »

Can't wait when this toppic is closed by admins as a "Conspiration theory"
They are using "Conspirtion theory" explanation quite often recently.

The "conspiracy theory" is interesting. These usually pop up in order to fill a void in available information from an official source on a topic that is generally negative. They are going to be quite common in places where the trusted source of information does not provide that information, resulting in speculation. Negative speculation is often labeled as a "conspiracy theory" due to the increasingly sarcastic, often outlandish, nature that it can take. I see this as an area of concern for the ESO forums.

I actually see "baiting" more than "conspiracy theory", though. Baiting is pretty ubiquitous on the internet, so that is hardly surprising.