Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »...if 90%+ of forum posts are neutral or positive then a user should not be banned unless and until any perceived negativity has been explained to the user and persists to the extent that it offsest neutral/positive contribution.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Thanks to @ZOS_Kevin for permitting this feedback/discussion - that is very much appreciated.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »My experience is that the forum moderation is both draconian and Orwellian. Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
The appeal system, in my experience, is a farce and seems only to exist to rubber-stamp the original decisions.
In a recent conversation with Terry White, cs manager, zenimax I mentioned specifically my view that the forum moderation was 'Orwellian and draconian' to which he replied, "Yes, it's deliberate and by design." He also stated no software is used, all decisions are human. When I asked Terry White, cs manager, zenimax if 'good' posts were recognised and went into the process of evaluating whether a comment should merit editing or a ban I was met with stony silence; I took this to mean that they were not and that forum moderation proceeds strictly from a negative perspective per account - in short if your forum account is flagged as problematic, expect the perma-ban as an inevitability. I was advised by Terry White, cs manager, zenimax to avoid satire in the forum; this is disgraceful to say the least given how relevant a form of comment - with all its wonderful wit - satire can be. I asked Terry White, cs manager, zenimax to review the terms to avoid invidious wording regarding 'intent' - which only the poster can truly know - to reflect that moderation decisions are stated as based on opinion and not as currently written, false assertion: he agreed to pass this on to their 'legal team'.
Trying to get a moderator to answer a straight question regarding redactions is useless - if you get a reply (very rare) it'll be a stock copy&paste of the terms which does nothing to illuminate what the specific issue was.
I agree with others that the 'report' option is misused; my first temp ban was for calling out a straw man argument which did NOT troll/bait the individual but the false logic of the comment used - this distinction was not recognised nor acknowledged and I'm still unsure to this day if the qualitative distinction between an attack on a person (which is NOT ok) versus an attack/defense on a comment (which is definitely ok) is understood by moderators.
Despite trying very hard to follow the Orwellian requirement to stick to the implicit newspeak required I've found I cannot even laugh at the irony of recent advertisements without facing instant, reactionary censure.
If you [zos] really want to improve the forum ambience and get away from the reality of draconian redaction, then change that 'Orwellian' policy and start to answer legitimate questions sent asking for fuller explanations/expositions of moderator decisions, get a separate team to do the appeals so appeals are not shut-down or ignored and review those decisions and absolutely add in positives when flagging forum accounts. In the latter case, if 90%+ of forum posts are neutral or positive then a user should not be banned unless and until any perceived negativity has been explained to the user and persists to the extent that it offsest neutral/positive contribution.
Also, if you are using some sort of score-card on accounts this should be transparent to us as individual users - if I know [-10 mod pts] means the next time I say something regarded as dodgy means a perma-ban then at least I can make an informed choice whether to rein in my comments or cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. The consequences under a transparent system are on me, rather than wondering each time I type a comment if some arbitrary moderation decision is going to result in censure.
Thanks to @ZOS_Kevin for permitting this feedback/discussion - that is very much appreciated.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »My experience is that the forum moderation is both draconian and Orwellian. Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
The appeal system, in my experience, is a farce and seems only to exist to rubber-stamp the original decisions.
In a recent conversation with...
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »My experience is that the forum moderation is both draconian and Orwellian. Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
The appeal system, in my experience, is a farce and seems only to exist to rubber-stamp the original decisions.
In a recent conversation with...
I do not think the appeal system is a farce. However, I do think that a successful appeal is not as beneficial as it sounds. If I read things correctly, it only gets the door opened, it does nothing to repair misunderstandings. That suggests to me that the very next time the person runs afoul of a moderator, it will be another ban. That ban will probably not win an appeal, as now the person is a repeat offender that wasted their second chance.
.Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »My experience is that the forum moderation is both draconian and Orwellian. Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
The appeal system, in my experience, is a farce and seems only to exist to rubber-stamp the original decisions.
In a recent conversation with...
I do not think the appeal system is a farce. However, I do think that a successful appeal is not as beneficial as it sounds. If I read things correctly, it only gets the door opened, it does nothing to repair misunderstandings. That suggests to me that the very next time the person runs afoul of a moderator, it will be another ban. That ban will probably not win an appeal, as now the person is a repeat offender that wasted their second chance.
I will say, I did have one of my 3 day bans "reversed" after a review of my post where I was not the one promoting the conspiracy theory, but rather disproving it. However, it came after about 68 hours of the 72 hour ban, and I don't think they ever removed the "points" from the record.
katanagirl1 wrote: »Someone please explain this to me, it was edited for hate speech:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605576/nb-desync#latest
.Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »My experience is that the forum moderation is both draconian and Orwellian. Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
The appeal system, in my experience, is a farce and seems only to exist to rubber-stamp the original decisions.
In a recent conversation with...
I do not think the appeal system is a farce. However, I do think that a successful appeal is not as beneficial as it sounds. If I read things correctly, it only gets the door opened, it does nothing to repair misunderstandings. That suggests to me that the very next time the person runs afoul of a moderator, it will be another ban. That ban will probably not win an appeal, as now the person is a repeat offender that wasted their second chance.
I will say, I did have one of my 3 day bans "reversed" after a review of my post where I was not the one promoting the conspiracy theory, but rather disproving it. However, it came after about 68 hours of the 72 hour ban, and I don't think they ever removed the "points" from the record.
While I'll refrain from specific incidents, I found your story remarkably similar to...someone...I know. From "defending" the company to the reversal. Might have even been the same discussion. By any chance were you P.M.'d by a "random" forum poster minutes before the ban?
katanagirl1 wrote: »Someone please explain this to me, it was edited for hate speech:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605576/nb-desync#latest
Reason
[X] Child sexual exploitation and abuse
[ ] Terrorism or violent extremism
[ ] Self-harm / Suicide
[ ] Non-consensual intimate imagery
[ ] Imminent harm to persons or property
[ ] Hate Speech
[ ] Trolling
[ ] Spam
[ ] Profane name or UserID
[ ] Scamming
[ ] Doxing / Sharing personal information
[ ] Cheating / Exploiting
[ ] Harassment / Bullying
.Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »My experience is that the forum moderation is both draconian and Orwellian. Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
The appeal system, in my experience, is a farce and seems only to exist to rubber-stamp the original decisions.
In a recent conversation with...
I do not think the appeal system is a farce. However, I do think that a successful appeal is not as beneficial as it sounds. If I read things correctly, it only gets the door opened, it does nothing to repair misunderstandings. That suggests to me that the very next time the person runs afoul of a moderator, it will be another ban. That ban will probably not win an appeal, as now the person is a repeat offender that wasted their second chance.
I will say, I did have one of my 3 day bans "reversed" after a review of my post where I was not the one promoting the conspiracy theory, but rather disproving it. However, it came after about 68 hours of the 72 hour ban, and I don't think they ever removed the "points" from the record.
While I'll refrain from specific incidents, I found your story remarkably similar to...someone...I know. From "defending" the company to the reversal. Might have even been the same discussion. By any chance were you P.M.'d by a "random" forum poster minutes before the ban?
No, I was not.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »My experience is that the forum moderation is both draconian and Orwellian. Satire of any sort is generally misinterpreted and often mistakenly invites censure.
The appeal system, in my experience, is a farce and seems only to exist to rubber-stamp the original decisions.
In a recent conversation with...
Interesting story about the customer service manager. I know that it was presented in a negative light, but I would seriously like to sit down with him informally and just talk about his job. I guess that have been critical of him in the past, without knowing who he is or what challenges he faces, and that is part of the reason why I'd love to just sit down and hear what he does and understand his job better. Of course, my guess is that if I ever did get a chance to talk to him, it would not be informal.
Anyway... About moderation... Satire, humor, and sarcasm are touchy subjects here. I do know people who have been warned and suspended for it. I use it a lot here. Use with caution.
I do not think the appeal system is a farce. However, I do think that a successful appeal is not as beneficial as it sounds. If I read things correctly, it only gets the door opened, it does nothing to repair misunderstandings. That suggests to me that the very next time the person runs afoul of a moderator, it will be another ban. That ban will probably not win an appeal, as now the person is a repeat offender that wasted their second chance.
While I am on the subject, the report form should be sorted differently. I notice that the most heinous acts are at the top, not the most commonly encountered. The checkbox should default to the most common option, not one of the worst possible option. The reason for this would be to avoid unintentional escalation due to a mistake during submission.
Reason
[X] Child sexual exploitation and abuse
[ ] Terrorism or violent extremism
[ ] Self-harm / Suicide
[ ] Non-consensual intimate imagery
[ ] Imminent harm to persons or property
[ ] Hate Speech
[ ] Trolling
[ ] Spam
[ ] Profane name or UserID
[ ] Scamming
[ ] Doxing / Sharing personal information
[ ] Cheating / Exploiting
[ ] Harassment / Bullying
katanagirl1 wrote: »Someone please explain this to me, it was edited for hate speech:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605576/nb-desync#latest
katanagirl1 wrote: »Someone please explain this to me, it was edited for hate speech:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605576/nb-desync#latest
katanagirl1 wrote: »Someone please explain this to me, it was edited for hate speech:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605576/nb-desync#latest
My guess would be the last four letters of the r-word that insults someone's intelligence used as a suffix. I've seen it used to refer to bow users, usually Snipe spammers, in a derogatory way.
SilverBride wrote: »Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »...if 90%+ of forum posts are neutral or positive then a user should not be banned unless and until any perceived negativity has been explained to the user and persists to the extent that it offsest neutral/positive contribution.
This is my biggest issue with the current system. A poster can have several thousand constructive posts but get permabanned for 3 to 5 infractions (not sure how many) all made over a span of several years.
Out of thousands of posts the law of averages pretty much guarantees that there will be a few mistakes. But this isn't taken into consideration. And many of the actioned infractions are so mild that an educational warning should have been sufficient.
We are losing long time posters to this, many of whom have been active and constructive posters since this game launched. This really needs to be reevaluated.Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Thanks to @ZOS_Kevin for permitting this feedback/discussion - that is very much appreciated.
I wholeheartedly agree.
joerginger wrote: »Where do you see the "forum warning level"? I don't see anything here or at the ESO account page either.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Would just like to add regarding trigger-happy forum abusers of the 'report-post' option....
Most enlightened civilisations provide a mechanism for the 'right to face your accuser'. While I'd accept that may not be practicable in terms of an online community - although I certainly think it would significantly reduce the hostility of others and prevalence of reports if their anonymity was removed - I would think it prudent and fair that the text of any complaint is forwarded to the account of any post reported, regardless of moderator action.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »joerginger wrote: »Where do you see the "forum warning level"? I don't see anything here or at the ESO account page either.
...it appears at the top of your forum account page, where appropriate.
SilverBride wrote: »Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Would just like to add regarding trigger-happy forum abusers of the 'report-post' option....
Most enlightened civilisations provide a mechanism for the 'right to face your accuser'. While I'd accept that may not be practicable in terms of an online community - although I certainly think it would significantly reduce the hostility of others and prevalence of reports if their anonymity was removed - I would think it prudent and fair that the text of any complaint is forwarded to the account of any post reported, regardless of moderator action.
This would be a form of calling out and could create hostility between the poster and the reporter rather than reduce it. It could also escalate the situation leading to more infractions.
SilverBride wrote: »Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »joerginger wrote: »Where do you see the "forum warning level"? I don't see anything here or at the ESO account page either.
...it appears at the top of your forum account page, where appropriate.
I have had infractions and I don't see this anywhere. Are you able to post a screenshot, blocking out the account holder's information?
SilverBride wrote: »Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Would just like to add regarding trigger-happy forum abusers of the 'report-post' option....
Most enlightened civilisations provide a mechanism for the 'right to face your accuser'. While I'd accept that may not be practicable in terms of an online community - although I certainly think it would significantly reduce the hostility of others and prevalence of reports if their anonymity was removed - I would think it prudent and fair that the text of any complaint is forwarded to the account of any post reported, regardless of moderator action.
This would be a form of calling out and could create hostility between the poster and the reporter rather than reduce it. It could also escalate the situation leading to more infractions.
Looks like there's a new "Moderation" tab on forum account info.
SilverBride wrote: »Looks like there's a new "Moderation" tab on forum account info.
The moderation tab has been there as long as I remember. It lists all the infractions that the poster has ever gotten and has a number for how many points each individual infraction is worth.
But there is no forum warning level at the top of our forum account page.
Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »Equally, if someone wrote "This post violates term X because it offends me in W,Y,Z ways" then at least, on reflection, the account holder facing potential censure could see an alternate viewpoint and withdraw or simply accept the censure as a reasonable action under the circumstances. I know I would.
As it stands now all you get is a copy of your post, a unilateral and uninformative assertion of compliance failure and censure with links to the terms - there is zero actual explanation.