Shortage of fake tanks and fake healers

svendf · April 2022

RaikaNA wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you are unwilling to do the role for which you queue, you are a terrible person and part of the problem. Now for normal dungeons, that is a really low bar. You need a Taunt for a tank (that you use on bosses) and some sort of group heal as a healer (that you use when you see people's health bars move). Any attempt to rationalize not doing that makes you a more terrible person.

Of course, if your group is okay with it, run whatever you want. That is why when I queue as a healer, I always type in chat, "going to go hybrid DPS/heals, will go full heals if needed or there are any objections." I do that in normal FG1, I do it in Vet DLC. Works every time. AT least half the time, the group says just go full DPS, which I am happy to oblige.

As far as I am concerned, queuing as a tank without a taunt or a healer without at least one group heal, should be a bannable offense. Anyone can slot Inner fire or Vigor, and for normal dungeons, that's all you need to meet the criteria for your role.

Wow! LOL!!!! Someone is being overly dramatic! Trying to ban everyone who fakes tanks/heals a NORMAL dungeon

As someone who fakes tanks on NORMAL dungeons, I don't see anything wrong with it... People shouldn't get banned over it either LOL. That's just ridiculous! You generally don't need a tank on normal dungeons.. especially on based dungeons. I know Clatterclaw looks pretty badass in fungal grotto, but does it truly need someone to... taunt it? As for heals goes... EVERYONE should have a self-heal slotted on the back of their weapon bar.

There are some major problems in understanding roles. Tank control the mobs and bosses and take a beating on that account. I have seen healers taken over the tank role as the "fake tank" wasn´t able to stand still, block, interrupt. You know normal basic skills. They did that because they have the skills and knowledge.

It doesen´t matter, normal or vet. They should keep to their roles, but not able to in a lot of situations. They drag the boss around in the room, because they are afraid.

Regarding heals. Yes a basic heal in slot is normal on the dd side. As I see often they spam it as it´s a competition. That´s because they are trouble.

You can try to lure people into, whatever rocks your agenda/narative here on the forums. In the game it self, it´s a lot different.

I have never played an mmo or online game, where it´s so easy to ruin people´s dungeon runs as it is in ESO and that effect can be seen in trials as well.

In guilds it´s more easy to control. You simply don´t run dungeons, with these figures and stay away from them.

That said. I like the PS5 system, where you give other group members, honor points.

Just a last thing. ZOS ! Be careful not to put ESO into the gutter.

You don't need a tank or a healer for normal non-DLC dungeons.. If the healer in the group takes over the tank role because the group has 2 to 3 crappy dps who can only produce 5k each, and not take out the adds/bosses in a timely matter... it's time to kick the dps out and replace it with new ones that can actually do damage, and not fight with a dull knife. I have an actual tank.. I've been through some horrible random normals where it's taking forever to complete because I notice that the dps in my group were mostly light attacking with their bows/staff. They fail to produce a simple rotation..
What's even worst is that some don't even have an AoE skill slotted so the adds are taking forever to die as a result. People claiming to be a dps can't actual DPS and have no rotation.

So to prevent this from happening I queue in as a fake tank on my high dps characters. I mostly do 70%+ anyways... It's not that I'm being selfish or being a horrible person. I know my dps builds more than anyone else. They're vet trial-ready... I just don't want to spend hours in a normal dungeon having to deal with bad dps.

Yet at the same time same people skip, run ahead. Bad DD´s ? Who are creating those ?

I have never spend hours in dungeons as a dd, healer or tank. In the early day´s maybe an hour. In those day´s I didn´t se fake roles as I do today. There is no doubt it have an effect on player quality.

By sticking to strickt roles you will create better players. add mechs, where you aren´t are able to skip and leaving people behind, learning nothing.

By leaving out those basic things create a toxic community, it´s basic, really. Some of the best runs I have done are, with low level players, who want to observe and learn at the same time. The worse runs are with the duo brothers or trio brothers, who wanna show off and they loose it big time. That said. Shure I have had plenty of good runs in groups of high cp people because of their attitude.

Lumenn · April 2022

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Perhaps it's BECAUSE I solo so often but why do speed runners bother to que for normals. If we're talking about randoms then ok, luck of the draw I get it, but if it's one of the undaunted dailies why?

Answering for myself. It's because I've done all these dungeons hundreds if not thousands of times, loathe doing them, hate PvE in general, but ZoS have not provided any other method of obtaining Keys and Transmutes for endgame players.

If they ever make it so 5000 points in a 10 minute BG daily give me 2 keys and 10 Transmutes, you will never see me in RND again.

Do you know what it's like to know all the NPC dialogue off by heart without even trying?

Or to be kicked as a tank with 2 taunts that flawlessly handles adds while also nuking them?

Solo the dungeon you say? It's gonna take even longer.

You think that speedrunners should not be included in runs with people that want to do the dungeon slow, and I think that the latter group should make their own guild (many exist) and then the only people in RNDs would be speedrunners and there would be no problem.

The game is already weighted in favour of casual players. Stop trying to make the game unplayable for people who've been playing 7 years.

I see almost no sign of empathy from the other side at all.

I help new players all the time. I do my part. So let me run the dungeons fast, until I have another source of Transmutes and Keys

Wow. I'm sure after 7 years of playing you know that the 3 daily undaunted (4 if you count the delve) can be taken and done solo right? A speedrunner doesn't need a grp as that's what a speedrunner does, takes off and leaves the grp to die because they are so Uber they don't need anyone. So the ones you can do solo, go do solo. If you can't handle it solo, you respect the group. Sometimes it will go in your favor, and the grp says cool, skip, hop, and use every trick to carry them. Sometimes they will want to do the dungeon the way it was made. Either way is respecting the group. If you're talking about RANDOMS, I'm just going to copy and paste the same thing I said in EVERY SINGLE POST. I get it, you have to que for those. I said that in my first post when I originally asked why speed runners bother to que for the undaunted dailies, that I wasn't talking about RANDOMS. And then again in the next. I even typed it all in caps and repeated it several times hoping a SPEEDREADER might slow down long enough to catch it. but here we are. The funny thing is that part keeps getting quoted. Solo what you can. If you can't, respect the group. It's that simple.

As for your other points.
I hate pvp. I used to love it but it's rife with cheese builds, lag inducing ball groups, and whiny king of the hill nerf mentality (my personal opinion). Performance in cyro has been poor and is years past being a meme. I still will run my 14 characters through if I need transmutes(see, you're not the only one who's played years.) Give me a dungeon I can run for a bit of work and get 50 transmutes a month(plus worthy rewards) and I'll never pvp again.(or at least until performance is fixed)

Speed runners should make a guild(many exist) and then the only people that que in a dungeon are the ones having to, or wanting to, do dungeons the way they were made.

You think clearing the mobs, doings mechanics, and NOT skipping bosses is casual? I don't even know what to say on that one so I'll just leave it there.

Empathy. In this we agree. I see no empathy. We have people who want/have to do dungeons. They que in as the game is designed. Then We have others who think it's a chore, lie about their role in que, and then blast off leaving them in the dust. They have other stuff to do, 18 characters to run, and think it's ok to ruin 3 teammates playtime. They didn't lie about their role(although I will grant a new DPS rarely is prepared)

Every single person here has said if you can solo, solo. If you can't, respect the grp. If they are cool with Speedrun(and some are grateful in my experience. What, you say? Why yes, as someone ELSE who's played for years and solos I CAN in fact run through and carry a grp in several dungeons. But I ask first, and respect the group. Oh my oh my. But you know who's REALLY grateful? The ones working on their roles, and then have an experienced player RESPECT THE GROUP and not treat them like trash so they can learn. Mind boggling isn't it?

newtinmpls · April 2022

Runefang wrote: »

I run a single heal and provide orbs for resources. No buff to the dps players is remotely worth stopping my own damage for.

As for “doing my job” I am doing more to aid the group in clearing the dungeon than the 2 dps.

I think most random normals can be done fine with mutagen for heals (up to 3 others) and orbs (resources - bingo!). If it's a harder/DLC the build may need to be swapped a bit to keep folks alive but that's a reasonable start.

Just as S&B taunt and Silver Leash (taunt and pulls) are a fine lowbie/random normal tank for most baby dungeons. I recently started a DK and was incredibly frustrated at how long it takes to get chains.

I will say that communication is important here. Just as "I'm here for a speedrun" or "I'm collecting such and so" or even "is anyone doing the quest?" are things to bring up earlier rather than later.

Molydeus · April 2022

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Perhaps it's BECAUSE I solo so often but why do speed runners bother to que for normals. If we're talking about randoms then ok, luck of the draw I get it, but if it's one of the undaunted dailies why?

Answering for myself. It's because I've done all these dungeons hundreds if not thousands of times, loathe doing them, hate PvE in general, but ZoS have not provided any other method of obtaining Keys and Transmutes for endgame players.

If they ever make it so 5000 points in a 10 minute BG daily give me 2 keys and 10 Transmutes, you will never see me in RND again.

Do you know what it's like to know all the NPC dialogue off by heart without even trying?

Or to be kicked as a tank with 2 taunts that flawlessly handles adds while also nuking them?

Solo the dungeon you say? It's gonna take even longer.

You think that speedrunners should not be included in runs with people that want to do the dungeon slow, and I think that the latter group should make their own guild (many exist) and then the only people in RNDs would be speedrunners and there would be no problem.

The game is already weighted in favour of casual players. Stop trying to make the game unplayable for people who've been playing 7 years.

I see almost no sign of empathy from the other side at all.

I help new players all the time. I do my part. So let me run the dungeons fast, until I have another source of Transmutes and Keys

TDLR; I'm impatient.

Iselin · April 2022

Even for speed runs when serious tanking and serious healing are not needed, a tank that is good at gathering trash into a killing circle and holding the boss' attention and a healer with all the +damage and sustain buffs they provide make the speed run better and often faster than the 4 DPS chaos.

It's actually very rare for a 4 DPS PUG to be better because you almost never get 4 really good DPS in those which is the only way it could be faster. I would say that no more than 1 in 50 of my nRD PUG runs are like that. It's more typical to have 2 or 3 crappy DPS being carried by one good one in those.

Also IDK about others but fake tanks and fake healers are actually not all that common. I'm sure those that do it routinely think it's normal because they are always creating that environment so it's all they see, but it really is abnormal. I'd say 75% of my nRDs, and I do at least 10 per day of those for the purple reward XP, have actual tanks and actual healers in them. This is on PC NA - no idea what's normal in other platforms / servers.

Elrond87 · April 2022

i fake heal or tank if its a normal dungeon, if its a dlc normal and see they are low lvl ill just slot a taunt as a dd or one heal ability. but for vet i stick to the actual role

Lindsey · April 2022

I was kicked from wayrest sewers for being a fake tank. I got grief from the fake healer because I didn't taunt a boss that does his own thing anyway.

Lumenn · April 2022

Lindsey wrote: »

I was kicked from wayrest sewers for being a fake tank. I got grief from the fake healer because I didn't taunt a boss that does his own thing anyway.

That boss is a pain . I wish zos would fix situations like that.

svendf · April 2022

Imagine you are a healer and que as healer, ending up as a tank. It´s actually for real guy´s -ZOS! This is for real xD. Today in one of the new dungeons on normal ( did them on vet on release day), I got the tank role again and let the boss kill me. I had enough of it. Plain and simple, enough of it.

What is going on ? Stop all this rubish about, just do this and that. It´s easy I just do bla, bla, bla. Slot bla, bla, bla. Big lol here. As much I can laugh at it, at times. It´s not healthy for ESO or the player´s involved.

How hard can it be ? And if it is hard to put those mechs inplace, please dear ZOS educate me and I will listen.

I have never played a game, with other people online, where these thing, where possible, never

After I got my new PS5 up and running (my new toy

) I earned 135 Accolade the first 72 hours. Don´t say I don´t help people. What do I get in return ? Fake tanks, speed runners, skipers. What on earth is going on ?

If people are new to content it´s easy to se if you have be playing ESO for years as I have, and many others as well. Same can be seen if people don´t give a flying horse about the group they are in, and also very importan, the time put into this.

It have been getting worse over time, the last 3 or so years. Oh dear, oh dear

What´s next ?

Please give some hope ZOS Im on your side

svendf · April 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

Lindsey wrote: »

I was kicked from wayrest sewers for being a fake tank. I got grief from the fake healer because I didn't taunt a boss that does his own thing anyway.

That boss is a pain . I wish zos would fix situations like that.

Stay close to boss or she will teleport to player, who have the largest distance to her. Block when she do a "swing". Repeat

Cuddlypuff · April 2022

svendf wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Lindsey wrote: »

I was kicked from wayrest sewers for being a fake tank. I got grief from the fake healer because I didn't taunt a boss that does his own thing anyway.

That boss is a pain . I wish zos would fix situations like that.

Stay close to boss or she will teleport to player, who have the largest distance to her. Block when she do a "swing". Repeat

It's like that for almost all bosses. Nothing becomes "untaunted" from the player that hits the boss first until a pug is too far away and pulls it over to them.

jtm1018 · April 2022

When I queue for a rnd, I expect fake tank and heal, I beg other player to fake tank and heal for a rnd, its rnd, a walk in the park, to easy to bother about roles.

Jimbob47 · April 2022

I've seen this argument countless times over the years and imagine it will happen countless times again! The reality is 4dd runs(including DLC dungeons) are the quickest and most efficient providing they are all self sufficient players, the only times fake rolls are a problem is when a player runs around the room like a headless chicken when the boss targets them. Even without CP most boss attacks can be blocked easily, the ones that cant be blocked you dodge. The majority of players who dislike fake roles I suspect are new players (no problem there) or aren't aware of mechanics like interrupting or recognizing when a boss is in an invincible state due to certain mechanics.

Silaf · April 2022

Solution is simple. Make the armory station store sets inside instead of having to carry them in the already extremly limited bag space we have.
The reason why i don't play as a tank with my main is because i don't have space to carry around multiple armors and need to return to the coffer in my home and retrive/switch every single day.
It may sound like a little ting if you do it one time but every single day is not worth it.

Daoin · April 2022

if you call 5 minutes a long queue time then the there is the problem not the roles you end up with !

Cuddlypuff · April 2022

Iselin wrote: »

Also IDK about others but fake tanks and fake healers are actually not all that common. I'm sure those that do it routinely think it's normal because they are always creating that environment so it's all they see, but it really is abnormal. I'd say 75% of my nRDs, and I do at least 10 per day of those for the purple reward XP, have actual tanks and actual healers in them. This is on PC NA - no idea what's normal in other platforms / servers.

I'm not saying I don't believe your estimates but I'd like to see the logic on how you can even tell if anybody is fake tanking or healing. Bosses are burned so fast in normals that nobody could possibly tell if you have a healing or taunt skill. After 25 days of 18 RND a day, we have yet to even be called "fakes" despite having 18k hp each lol.

Iselin · April 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Also IDK about others but fake tanks and fake healers are actually not all that common. I'm sure those that do it routinely think it's normal because they are always creating that environment so it's all they see, but it really is abnormal. I'd say 75% of my nRDs, and I do at least 10 per day of those for the purple reward XP, have actual tanks and actual healers in them. This is on PC NA - no idea what's normal in other platforms / servers.

I'm not saying I don't believe your estimates but I'd like to see the logic on how you can even tell if anybody is fake tanking or healing. Bosses are burned so fast in normals that nobody could possibly tell if you have a healing or taunt skill. After 25 days of 18 RND a day, we have yet to even be called "fakes" despite having 18k hp each lol.

A "healer" that never heals at all and a tank that neither taunts bosses nor gathers trash are dead simple to spot, If people are not calling you out on it it isn't because they haven't noticed lol.

Also, unlike your implied point that it's only uber DPS who do this, in my experience the vast majority of fakers are pathetic wannabes with very low DPS. It's actually very rare to get a fake tank or fake healer who can put out any more damage than a real tank or a real healer on their respective DPS bars.

Cuddlypuff · April 2022

Iselin wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Also IDK about others but fake tanks and fake healers are actually not all that common. I'm sure those that do it routinely think it's normal because they are always creating that environment so it's all they see, but it really is abnormal. I'd say 75% of my nRDs, and I do at least 10 per day of those for the purple reward XP, have actual tanks and actual healers in them. This is on PC NA - no idea what's normal in other platforms / servers.

I'm not saying I don't believe your estimates but I'd like to see the logic on how you can even tell if anybody is fake tanking or healing. Bosses are burned so fast in normals that nobody could possibly tell if you have a healing or taunt skill. After 25 days of 18 RND a day, we have yet to even be called "fakes" despite having 18k hp each lol.

A "healer" that never heals at all and a tank that neither taunts bosses nor gathers trash are dead simple to spot, If people are not calling you out on it it isn't because they haven't noticed lol.

Also, unlike your implied point that it's only uber DPS who do this, in my experience the vast majority of fakers are pathetic wannabes with very low DPS. It's actually very rare to get a fake tank or fake healer who can put out any more damage than a real tank or a real healer on their respective DPS bars.

I wouldn't know because I'm always the tank but wouldn't game theory result in these "fakers" having enough DPS clear the dungeons? Hear me out.
1. They would only fake to save time. (Queue + the length of the run itself)
2. The 2x DD queued can't do the dungeon themselves (thus queued as 2x DD). Nobody expects them to have any DPS and that's OK.
3. Fakers know this and therefore need to be able to solo the dungeon. Because if they can't, the run will fail or take longer.

The TL;DR is, there is no fake tank in the world that will consistently queue expecting 2 DPS to carry his 0 DPS. I can see someone attempting it once or twice, but they'd quickly learn that this scenario is impossible.

Succuby · April 2022

With current DD - if you do not quote as fake tank on normall DD character you have 3 options (on real tank or healer roles):

1)You will not pass
2)You pass but ... after years )
3)Some times you get luck with at least 1 normal DD and you normally pass.

So ... it is more simple to fake tank if you play normal+ on DD

Iselin · April 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Also IDK about others but fake tanks and fake healers are actually not all that common. I'm sure those that do it routinely think it's normal because they are always creating that environment so it's all they see, but it really is abnormal. I'd say 75% of my nRDs, and I do at least 10 per day of those for the purple reward XP, have actual tanks and actual healers in them. This is on PC NA - no idea what's normal in other platforms / servers.

I'm not saying I don't believe your estimates but I'd like to see the logic on how you can even tell if anybody is fake tanking or healing. Bosses are burned so fast in normals that nobody could possibly tell if you have a healing or taunt skill. After 25 days of 18 RND a day, we have yet to even be called "fakes" despite having 18k hp each lol.

A "healer" that never heals at all and a tank that neither taunts bosses nor gathers trash are dead simple to spot, If people are not calling you out on it it isn't because they haven't noticed lol.

Also, unlike your implied point that it's only uber DPS who do this, in my experience the vast majority of fakers are pathetic wannabes with very low DPS. It's actually very rare to get a fake tank or fake healer who can put out any more damage than a real tank or a real healer on their respective DPS bars.

I wouldn't know because I'm always the tank but wouldn't game theory result in these "fakers" having enough DPS clear the dungeons? Hear me out.
1. They would only fake to save time. (Queue + the length of the run itself)
2. The 2x DD queued can't do the dungeon themselves (thus queued as 2x DD). Nobody expects them to have any DPS and that's OK.
3. Fakers know this and therefore need to be able to solo the dungeon. Because if they can't, the run will fail or take longer.

The TL;DR is, there is no fake tank in the world that will consistently queue expecting 2 DPS to carry his 0 DPS. I can see someone attempting it once or twice, but they'd quickly learn that this scenario is impossible.

You've heard of one bar builds that parse 90k+ DPS haven't you? Just google Hack's or Dooma's builds if you are not aware of them. Any real healer or real tank, if they are at the same competence level of a fake tank or fake healer, can and do put out the same DPS as the faker on their one DPS bar.

I queue as a healer on 4 of my 10 regular rotation. When the RNG luck of the draw puts me in a group that needs little to no healing (about 50:50) my DPS meter tells me I'm doing 40-60% of the group damage on trash and bosses. It would take an uber, exceptional DPS faking a healer to out DPS my contribution when doing it as a real healer with my other healing bar that is there if needed - and it often is needed.

"Fakes" is not the homogenous group you're pretending it is. There's a range from the ones who are really good all the way down to the pathetic ones who just pew pew bow light attacks. And like I said, in my experience - which is not biased by my own contribution since I never fake roles - the bad fakes who need to be carried far outweigh the uber ones.

Doc45 · April 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

2. The 2x DD queued can't do the dungeon themselves (thus queued as 2x DD). Nobody expects them to have any DPS and that's OK.
3. Fakers know this and therefore need to be able to solo the dungeon. Because if they can't, the run will fail or take longer.

It often does take longer, and yes, fake tanks are very easy to spot. It's common for fake tanks to overestimate their abilities. In healer role, it makes it a bit more fun if the fake tank runs ahead and dies. If they are capable of soloing but run ahead despite newer players saying they are doing the quest or players opening a chest, it can be fun to kick them when they reach the final boss and just finish with 3. I sometimes see it as a mini-game within the game. I get that sounds a bit spiteful, but play as you want, right? When a faker annoys others by not considering the group's wishes at all, it's fair to ignore their wishes. Most often, though, if it's not causing any real problem, I just shake my head and ignore it (no harm, no foul). Just because a faker isn't being called out as fake, doesn't mean others don't realize or aren't annoyed.

I solo dungeons all the time, but I don't queue in dungeon finder on dd as a tank or healer. To suggest dd's who queue as such are incapable of soloing is a bit ridiculous. DD's who queue without a pre-formed group are often extremely capable, respectful of others, and don't lack patience. And as a very capable dd, I'd rather a tank group adds than have a dd who overestimates their abilities think they're "helping" more than an actual tank would help.

Good tanks and healers contribute A LOT, and they need to learn somewhere.

newtinmpls · April 2022

Doc45 wrote: »

fake tanks are very easy to spot. It's common for fake tanks to overestimate their abilities. In healer role, it makes it a bit more fun if the fake tank runs ahead and dies.

I see that more with fake DDS's and then when the come back from getting killed, they get a little irritable.

As a regular tank in randoms, I say You taunt it, you bought it. I'm waiting for the peeps doing the quest, and 4 more min is not going to kill you.

Unless you can't handle what you claim to handle.

Cuddlypuff · April 2022

I can imagine anybody being irritable if you don't skip and wipe in pretty much mandatory situations. Off the top of my head, Falkreath Hold between mammoth and golem boss, and SCP until first boss pair, and RoM before chest room after force pulling to the swamp boss. Let's just ignore the time saved skipping trash since people here believe there is XP and items to be earned

.

If any single person is in the group is in combat in these 3 situations, the dungeon will bug out. Bosses will respawn glitch 3-4 times over or the chests in RoM simply won't be interactable. I usually type out the skip and the reason at the start of dungeon, and again just before it's needed, and then during the 1-2 minute wait for pugs frantically still trying to stay alive after their team simply stood there and died. This is why we keep wipe-skips to an absolute minimum in RND (ie mostly bug avoidance).

When we duo a walk-in vet pledge, we wipe-skip in 10x more situations because we don't need to worry about pugs.

Agenericname · April 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

I can imagine anybody being irritable if you don't skip and wipe in pretty much mandatory situations. Off the top of my head, Falkreath Hold between mammoth and golem boss, and SCP until first boss pair, and RoM before chest room after force pulling to the swamp boss. Let's just ignore the time saved skipping trash since people here believe there is XP and items to be earned .

None of those skips are "mandatory." I dont skip them. In vSCP is takes us between 12 and 14 minutes to get to Zaan, and a HM clear in 25 minutes, and thats burning the gargoyle at 60% rather than a straight burn. Damage is so absurdly high right now that Im not really sure how much time could be saved.

The XP is nice, but I couldnt care less about CP. I havent spent any in a while. I dont really need the items either, I think I have the sticker books filled in most of the older DLC dungeons. Vet DLCs are however, some of the last engaging content in the game. There's trials, pvp, vet DLCs, and arenas. Thats it.

Cuddlypuff · April 2022

The wiping is mandatory to prevent actual known and common bugs with in-combat status and dungeon event triggers. Just because you killed every trash mob doesn't mean you are guaranteed to be out of combat. Skipping just increases the chances of the "bug" happening to 100%, which is why we have to call a wipe.

Agenericname · April 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

The wiping is mandatory to prevent actual known and common bugs with in-combat status and dungeon event triggers. Just because you killed every trash mob doesn't mean you are guaranteed to be out of combat. Skipping just increases the chances of the "bug" happening to 100%, which is why we have to call a wipe.

Usually the combat bug is the result of adds/mobs that were left behind. Its not a bug that I see with regularity.

Mythgard1967 · April 2022

Saw that bug last night.....the third or fourth time I have ever been in that dungeon. It was on Normal. No communication whatsoever. It was just assumed everyone knew what was going on and was apparently sneaking at some point or another...I dunno. The first two or three times running this were not speed runs and we killed everything and had no problems.

The Tank and Healer clearly knew each other.

No communication on anything until the chests werent interactable and I had no idea what was happening until the Tank berated the DD for agro on mobs. I assume that was my fault. The tank let us know that this was easy and he runs it all the time on vet and we are idiots. Great...why you doing it on normal random them and being a jerk? Do Vet randoms if its do burdensome for you to be with the commoners.

I am not stupid, I am not emotional, I am fairly easy going. I am not top tier and never will be. I am usually happy to be in the middle of the pack and I know I am as I watch combat metrics constantly and work to improve. I only run VET with guildees for this reason. These were very clearly top tier players....which is fine. I enjoy watching and learning from them when I see them. But they expected me to read their minds on what was happening and my failure to do so was clearly because I am stupid.

The entire experience was so horrific on a NORMAL run that I honestly logged out and installed a new MMO to play for a while. ESO clearly has no need for new players or average players and should be strictly reserved for those with elite skill kkthxla~

Pevey · April 2022

I almost never queue as dps for normals. I always queue as tank or healer. But I can't imagine doing it without slotting a taunt or heal. As a fake tank, I slot taunt AND heal. I assume I will not get a real healer. And that's fine.

I think this is okay if I can do the job, and I can. Tanking normals does not need a large health pool or tank-specific CP. But you do have to know how to block, interrupt, stay in one place, and use a taunt. ZOS even nudged us in that direction with the change to the stam undaunted taunt giving you a damage boost, so there is minimal if any dps loss from working the taunt into your rotation.

I really don't understand the logic of people who think it is okay to queue as tank and not taunt. Even for your own benefit and to make the run go faster, don't you WANT to taunt so that the boss will hold still and not go running after the bad "healer" who is running around scared like a chicken with their head cut off?

Iselin · April 2022

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

Saw that bug last night.....the third or fourth time I have ever been in that dungeon. It was on Normal. No communication whatsoever. It was just assumed everyone knew what was going on and was apparently sneaking at some point or another...I dunno. The first two or three times running this were not speed runs and we killed everything and had no problems.

The Tank and Healer clearly knew each other.

No communication on anything until the chests werent interactable and I had no idea what was happening until the Tank berated the DD for agro on mobs. I assume that was my fault. The tank let us know that this was easy and he runs it all the time on vet and we are idiots. Great...why you doing it on normal random them and being a jerk? Do Vet randoms if its do burdensome for you to be with the commoners.

I am not stupid, I am not emotional, I am fairly easy going. I am not top tier and never will be. I am usually happy to be in the middle of the pack and I know I am as I watch combat metrics constantly and work to improve. I only run VET with guildees for this reason. These were very clearly top tier players....which is fine. I enjoy watching and learning from them when I see them. But they expected me to read their minds on what was happening and my failure to do so was clearly because I am stupid.

The entire experience was so horrific on a NORMAL run that I honestly logged out and installed a new MMO to play for a while. ESO clearly has no need for new players or average players and should be strictly reserved for those with elite skill kkthxla~

Great post!

This is why I always emphasize communication in groups - especially the nRD where you're much more likely to get a range from ultra competent and geared right down to the raw beginner.

I had two randoms in the past couple of days of FG1 where there were 3 of us with 1500+ CP and one in the level 10-15 range. In the first one the lowbee asked us to go slow so we did that, never skipped anything nor drag pulled multiple packs. It took a tiny bit longer but whatever.

The second time with a level 10 I asked if they wanted us to go slow but they said "no, the faster the better." They didn't know about the water skip so we showed them where to jump back up. It probably took longer than normal just letting them get the hang of the climbing up the embankment. Again no biggie.

There's really no excuse for all the silent assumptions that everyone is on the same page or, like you say, are mind readers.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

The wiping is mandatory to prevent actual known and common bugs with in-combat status and dungeon event triggers. Just because you killed every trash mob doesn't mean you are guaranteed to be out of combat. Skipping just increases the chances of the "bug" happening to 100%, which is why we have to call a wipe.

I can count the number of times I have had to wipe in a group for a combat bug on one hand, I wouldnt need my thumb or pinky finger, and have been running dungeons since launch. Pretty much only time I ever see or call for a wipe, is someone runs into the last boss before activating HM. If you are encountering that bug with any frequency, then my best guess is you are attempting to skip a lot of trash and at least one member of your group is not on the same page.

RaikaNA wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

You queue as fake tank? Slot inner fire and taunt.
You queue as fake healer? Slot a heal and heal.

[snip]

Lol I do 60-70% group dps as a fake healer or tank. [snip]

That's fine, as long as you have a heal on top of your good dps, because you queued as that role.

What gives you the right to dictate what people put on their weapon bar?

If I queue in as a tank.. why should I waste my flex slot for a taunt when it's being reserved as my self-heal? Perhaps people should do the same? How on earth are you to make it in vMA when you're struggling to survive a normal-based dungeon?

[edited to remove quote]

Funny, in your response earlier, you said everyone should have a heal. Is that not dictating what people should run on their bars?

If you queue as a tank, your taunt shouldnt even be in the discussion for your flex spot, because the second you dont run a taunt, you arent a tank in this game. Nobody is saying you cant do DPS, nobody is saying you cant push the pace. What most people seem to acknowledge is that by queuing as a tank, you should perform the bare minimum for that role, which is taunting bosses. Call it a social contract, call it common curtesy, call it not being terrible person, call it whatever you want.

It is such a low bar in normal dungeons. Take an average DPS build, replace any one of your dots with Inner Beast, and your group DPS will actually increase (read the tooltip), and then, nobody can complain you arent doing your role. As a healer, instead of running a self heal, run something like echoing Vigor, its more than enough. Even if you never cast it, at least it was there just in case.

Yes, most normals can be solo'ed. Yes, even an average DPS can usually get away with just queueing as a fake tank and pull 60% of group DPS without getting hate whispers, but some people in normal dungeons are level 10s. They havent gone into cyro for vigor, they might not have a self heal unlocked yet, they might not know to roll dodge a bosses heavy attack (there are one shots on normal, especially in some of the DLCs). If you are using the groupfinder, you should have the decency to attempt to perform the bare minimum for the role you queue for.

As for skill bar space, everybody should have room on any class. In normal dungeons, you dont get the highest DPS by running a 10 skill trial dummy rotation capable of pulling 120k+. You get the most DPS with a few ground DOTs and spam skills. Stuff dies to fast to run a full rotation, so having to "sacrifice" a flex spot makes no sense whatsoever.