Shortage of fake tanks and fake healers

ixthUA

When i queue to RND as tank or healer - queue is instant. When i queue as DD - queue takes 5-7 minutes and i still get fake tank and fake healer. With fake roles, even normal DLC dungeons are fast. It means that there are many times less fake roles than needed (for normal dungeons). How to solve the shortage?

Cuddlypuff

The issue is not the "RND Queue". As you pointed out, a true queue for RND will be mostly DPS looking for a speedrun because everybody just wants to get in and out for the reward. However the simple math is that 90% of the people you get matched with are not doing RND - instead they are queueing for an old pledge or some skill point / gear farm. You only need 1 RND a day. People could be doing up to 6 pledges a day or even spamming any number of dungeons for gear and quests.

Any decent player will solo or duo a dungeon for pledge, quest or gear, since that is by far the optimal method in terms of speed and minimizing downtime. Therefore anybody trying to queuing for this content is going to be mediocre at best and downright toxic at worst (with very few exceptions that truly enjoy the social aspects of queue finder ). As such, they NEED a tank to complete the content, and it's why fake tank queue pops instantly.

ixthUA

I dont want to queue as fake role, but i want my queue as DD to be instant. How do we get more people to queue as fake roles? Maybe give them better rewards (like more transmutes) if they queued as tank without a taunt, or healer without a single healing skill?

Cuddlypuff

Fake queueing was already normalized when I started playing the game 2 yrs ago, even before the current power creep. Until ZOS gives us the duo RND queue, there's no choice but to keep fake queueing and putting up with slow people. Hopefully DLC only option too so I can finish my sticker book and not waste time on yet another run of FG2 or CoA2. I don't think anybody will do RND ever again once they hit CP3600 and have full stickers so fortunately there's an end in sight. Transmutes are much easier to farm from Cyrodiil campaign rewards on 18 alts too.

SkaraMinoc

I just queue Normal as a real healer + buffs and if the group DPS is < 40k I switch to a full DPS build + some minor off heals.

Sometimes the 2 DPS is so low that it doesn't make sense to continue in your full healer build.

Armory assistant really helps.

Even in Fungal Grotto 1 I will start in a full healer build and give the DPS a chance before switching builds to clear faster.

Iselin

[snip]

A 4 DPS group can work of course but not always.

I value my word more than lying to get a quicker queue. If I queue as a healer, I'm there ready to do that role if it's needed. If the group happens to be good enough that no healer is needed, I'll just spend my time on my DPS bar.

Some people have no problem posing to save 5 minutes. I do.

[edited for minor baiting]

Amottica

Forming your own group is the solution for getting the type of group you want.

Happy to help provide this amazing insight.

Cuddlypuff

TFW you realize nobody else was actually [snip]posting

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

deleted221205-002626

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

I just queue Normal as a real healer + buffs and if the group DPS is < 40k I switch to a full DPS build + some minor off heals.

Sometimes the 2 DPS is so low that it doesn't make sense to continue in your full healer build.

Armory assistant really helps.

Even in Fungal Grotto 1 I will start in a full healer build and give the DPS a chance before switching builds to clear faster.

I run into this alot.. most of the time i run as high dps heals cuz its just too brutal getting a group with no dps at all

Kahnak

Iselin wrote: »

[snip]

A 4 DPS group can work of course but not always.

I value my word more than lying to get a quicker queue. If I queue as a healer, I'm there ready to do that role if it's needed. If the group happens to be good enough that no healer is needed, I'll just spend my time on my DPS bar.

Some people have no problem posing to save 5 minutes. I do.

I've never seen an obvious benefit to having 4 DPS rather than the classic party structure. Generally, the people I see advocating for 4 DPS or actively faking roles aren't the one's contributing a substantial amount overall DPS and don't have enough understanding about the game to know what kinds of buffs and debuffs tanks and healers are meant to bring to group play.

"If I queue as a healer, I'm there ready to do that role if it's needed. If the group happens to be good enough that no healer is needed, I'll just spend my time on my DPS bar."

Not to mention that a healer doing what they are supposed to be doing is adding 10k - 15k of their own DPS. And that doesn't take into account buffs provided to the group.

"Some people have no problem posing to save 5 minutes. I do."

I'm going to take it a little further and say that I have a problem with people willing to pose to save 5 minutes. These are the people who weave in and out of traffic without putting on their blinker to get two car lengths ahead.

[edited to remove quote]

NettleCarrier

The armory assistant has definitely helped. It has allowed me to take over as tank when the fake tank ends up in Moonhunter Keep...

KaGaOri

Sigh.

Honestly wish there were separate dungeon finder queues for "actually want to run the dungeon" and "just here for the crystals".

Don't mind having weak / low level player in rnd group - there's four of us, we can deal with it. Absolutely hate having player who obviously doesn't want to be there and only thing he cares about is how fast can he get out the other end.

Lady_Galadhiel

I do not know of long queue times because I am a healer main. That said I prefer 3 DPS in my group, only in case of vetDlc dungeons where the classical setup makes things smoother, but I rarely play those nowadays.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

If you are unwilling to do the role for which you queue, you are a terrible person and part of the problem. Now for normal dungeons, that is a really low bar. You need a Taunt for a tank (that you use on bosses) and some sort of group heal as a healer (that you use when you see people's health bars move). Any attempt to rationalize not doing that makes you a more terrible person.

Of course, if your group is okay with it, run whatever you want. That is why when I queue as a healer, I always type in chat, "going to go hybrid DPS/heals, will go full heals if needed or there are any objections." I do that in normal FG1, I do it in Vet DLC. Works every time. AT least half the time, the group says just go full DPS, which I am happy to oblige.

As far as I am concerned, queuing as a tank without a taunt or a healer without at least one group heal, should be a bannable offense. Anyone can slot Inner fire or Vigor, and for normal dungeons, that's all you need to meet the criteria for your role.

ixthUA

I guess i didnt express the problem properly.
Fake roles work fine in normal random dungeons, however there are long (5+ minutes) waiting times for DDs, while fake tank and fake healer get queue instantly. If there were more fakes - queues for DDs would be shorter, so how to motivate people to queue as fake roles? I think that tank/healer rewards should be better.

Iselin

ixthUA wrote: »

I guess i didnt express the problem properly.
Fake roles work fine in normal random dungeons, however there are long (5+ minutes) waiting times for DDs, while fake tank and fake healer get queue instantly. If there were more fakes - queues for DDs would be shorter, so how to motivate people to queue as fake roles? I think that tank/healer rewards should be better.

We knew what you meant. It's just that we've heard that rationalization about quicker queues for all with more fakes 100 times before so we didn't bother with it.

And no groups with fakes don't always work fine even in normal non-DLC dungeons. It totally depends on the luck of the draw and who and what you get. You might get lucky and get someone capable of soloing the dungeon that will carry the whole group or you might get 3 new low levels who don't even know that random dungeon.

Also ... 5 minutes is long? Thanks for the laugh.

ixthUA

5 minutes queue is 300 times longer than 1 second tank/healer (including fakes) queue time. Why do DDs have to suffer?

Cuddlypuff

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you are unwilling to do the role for which you queue, you are a terrible person and part of the problem. Now for normal dungeons, that is a really low bar. You need a Taunt for a tank (that you use on bosses) and some sort of group heal as a healer (that you use when you see people's health bars move). Any attempt to rationalize not doing that makes you a more terrible person.

Of course, if your group is okay with it, run whatever you want. That is why when I queue as a healer, I always type in chat, "going to go hybrid DPS/heals, will go full heals if needed or there are any objections." I do that in normal FG1, I do it in Vet DLC. Works every time. AT least half the time, the group says just go full DPS, which I am happy to oblige.

As far as I am concerned, queuing as a tank without a taunt or a healer without at least one group heal, should be a bannable offense. Anyone can slot Inner fire or Vigor, and for normal dungeons, that's all you need to meet the criteria for your role.

I only ever fake queue + skip to last boss and yet the only place I seem to get called names or "terrible person" is forums lol. In the rare occasion that anybody says something other than "tyfg" after the run, it's usually "wow that was fast", "didn't even know that shortcut" or "thanks for the carry". Which is pretty ironic because I know the dungeon would have gone even faster as a duo that can reset in-combat status and reliably position bosses. Maybe 1 in 20 runs will have toxic people but honestly they'd probably be toxic in their other runs too for one reason or another.

I guess one caveat here is I only do dungeon queues during double XP events, with XP scrolls running. I guess many other people are too, so everyone is on the same page. Don't get me wrong though, just because most groups are happy doesn't mean I'm a fan of the RND system at all. It's not their fault, but most pugs are just too slow. Either let duos queue it for rewards, or just scrap the thing altogether so nobody is forced to do content they don't like doing.

Just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, my wife and I levelled all our alts to undaunted level 10 during 2 days of the event. One day's pledges were Banished Cells 1 and Vaults of Madness, and the other day's pledges were Spindleclutch 1 and City of Ash 1. It took between 3-4 hours on each day to finish 36 vet HM pledges across 18 chars for 200+ undaunted rep each char (by porting in as a duo). Yet doing 18 RNDs is at least 2 hours and often even takes 4 hours to complete, despite having zero queue time (ready checks can still take ages, and fail though). This doesn't make any sense and honestly shouldn't be the case in a game like this. It just feels like a reward system that literally punishes the very players that actually keep it ticking along.

Lumenn

Personally I love tanking in other mmo's. ESO is a bit different though as with enough DPS you can burn nearly anything, and what you can't burn are mechanics/one shots that a tank has little control over. Tanks/healers just aren't needed unless you're doing end game trials etc. And by then you should have a decent guild/grp. As to OP question about how to get more people to lie just to get dungeon pops faster...don't we have enough of that as is?

dmnqwk

A large part of the issue is the maths is too complicated for people to do.

If a DD pulls 40k with a tank and 25k without (because of the 11k penetration, grouping up, keeping in the same spot at the start since you know where the boss is going etc) why bring 75k from 3 DD versus 80k from 2?

Losing the stability, the grouping up, the flanking can cost a decent chunk of damage and if there was a person actually tanking, it'd save time.

KaGaOri

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you are unwilling to do the role for which you queue, you are a terrible person and part of the problem. Now for normal dungeons, that is a really low bar. You need a Taunt for a tank (that you use on bosses) and some sort of group heal as a healer (that you use when you see people's health bars move). Any attempt to rationalize not doing that makes you a more terrible person.

Of course, if your group is okay with it, run whatever you want. That is why when I queue as a healer, I always type in chat, "going to go hybrid DPS/heals, will go full heals if needed or there are any objections." I do that in normal FG1, I do it in Vet DLC. Works every time. AT least half the time, the group says just go full DPS, which I am happy to oblige.

As far as I am concerned, queuing as a tank without a taunt or a healer without at least one group heal, should be a bannable offense. Anyone can slot Inner fire or Vigor, and for normal dungeons, that's all you need to meet the criteria for your role.

I only ever fake queue + skip to last boss and yet the only place I seem to get called names or "terrible person" is forums lol. In the rare occasion that anybody says something other than "tyfg" after the run, it's usually "wow that was fast", "didn't even know that shortcut" or "thanks for the carry". Which is pretty ironic because I know the dungeon would have gone even faster as a duo that can reset in-combat status and reliably position bosses. Maybe 1 in 20 runs will have toxic people but honestly they'd probably be toxic in their other runs too for one reason or another.

I guess one caveat here is I only do dungeon queues during double XP events, with XP scrolls running. I guess many other people are too, so everyone is on the same page. Don't get me wrong though, just because most groups are happy doesn't mean I'm a fan of the RND system at all. It's not their fault, but most pugs are just too slow. Either let duos queue it for rewards, or just scrap the thing altogether so nobody is forced to do content they don't like doing.

Just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, my wife and I levelled all our alts to undaunted level 10 during 2 days of the event. One day's pledges were Banished Cells 1 and Vaults of Madness, and the other day's pledges were Spindleclutch 1 and City of Ash 1. It took between 3-4 hours on each day to finish 36 vet HM pledges across 18 chars for 200+ undaunted rep each char (by porting in as a duo). Yet doing 18 RNDs is at least 2 hours and often even takes 4 hours to complete, despite having zero queue time (ready checks can still take ages, and fail though). This doesn't make any sense and honestly shouldn't be the case in a game like this. It just feels like a reward system that literally punishes the very players that actually keep it ticking along.

Writing displeased / critical chat messages to unsuportive fake role speedrunning group member after the run is super weird, imo. What would that accomplish? Usually would just survive the 10 min of having horrible time, then silently leave. That person already wasted my x min queue time + time spent in the dungeon. Why waste more time typing anything? It's not like they change their ways to be more supportive of the group and less about "need my reward and need it fast" after reading.

BTW, "wow, that was fast" is what I wrote to the guildie who speed-run (including waterfall skip) FG1 while part of pre-made group created after asking in groupchat if someone would be willing to accompany my lvl 10 tank for rnd, since I've never tanked before and didn't wan't to pug. It wasn't a compliment. (Didn't get to tank at all, didn't get completion credit to level undaunted, didn't get quest completed for skill point. Wasn't as afraid to pug afterwards, though.)

Not getting angry messages doesn't mean nobody minds fake roles and surprise speedruns. Most people don't like confrontation and won't speak up. They just grit their teeth and hope for better group next time.

Arunei

ixthUA wrote: »

5 minutes queue is 300 times longer than 1 second tank/healer (including fakes) queue time. Why do DDs have to suffer?

The queue is so fast for healers and tanks because ESO keeps leaning more and more into DPS being the answer to everything. More DPS to nuke trash mobs, more DPS to skip boss mechanics, more DPS to basically render all threats obsolete. This means most people wind up playing DPS rather than the other two roles, which is why DPS always has to wait so much longer.

People skipping the queue make it worse in numerous ways. For one, they're taking the slot of an actual tank or healer, who surprise, would also like to do dungeons. For another, it's essentially cutting in line to get ahead of all the other DPS who want to get their dungeons done too. One could say "oh but if a DPS is queueing as a tank that's one less person fighting for the queue" but no, it's never made a difference in the queue considering DPS queue has been bad for years. That excuse doesn't work because it's not the case.

Lenny_linguine

Iselin wrote: »

[snip]

A 4 DPS group can work of course but not always.

I value my word more than lying to get a quicker queue. If I queue as a healer, I'm there ready to do that role if it's needed. If the group happens to be good enough that no healer is needed, I'll just spend my time on my DPS bar.

Some people have no problem posing to save 5 minutes. I do.

what's a Real healers doing with a dps bar ?

[edited to remove quote]

Iselin

Lenny_linguine wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

[snip]

A 4 DPS group can work of course but not always.

I value my word more than lying to get a quicker queue. If I queue as a healer, I'm there ready to do that role if it's needed. If the group happens to be good enough that no healer is needed, I'll just spend my time on my DPS bar.

Some people have no problem posing to save 5 minutes. I do.

what's a Real healers doing with a dps bar ?

You thought healers run resto/resto? New to the game?

[edited to remove quote]

Marolf

ixthUA wrote: »

5 minutes queue is 300 times longer than 1 second tank/healer (including fakes) queue time. Why do DDs have to suffer?

Sorta like how DD's get rewarded for doing the most damage output on world bosses and tanks and healers just have to deal with it?

VDoom1

You waited less than 10 minutes as DD? That is quite unusual. o.o.......

I wanted to do a specific dungeon as DD, had to wait like 2h...weeee. In another dungeon, when I went as tank and it was just me and the healer left (DD had to go) we had to wait quite a while for new DD. Which I simply don't understand, there's like always an ocean of DD just waiting.

Bottom line, I think the dungeon finder is somewhat intoxicated....just a bit, on occasion, it varies.
I usually don't complain about the group finder, like other MMOs I know there is a shortage of tanks and healers, things won't be perfect. But this just felt a bit weird.

How do we fix the shortage? Good question. Encourage people to play healers and tanks, easier said than done.

Cuddlypuff

KaGaOri wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you are unwilling to do the role for which you queue, you are a terrible person and part of the problem. Now for normal dungeons, that is a really low bar. You need a Taunt for a tank (that you use on bosses) and some sort of group heal as a healer (that you use when you see people's health bars move). Any attempt to rationalize not doing that makes you a more terrible person.

Of course, if your group is okay with it, run whatever you want. That is why when I queue as a healer, I always type in chat, "going to go hybrid DPS/heals, will go full heals if needed or there are any objections." I do that in normal FG1, I do it in Vet DLC. Works every time. AT least half the time, the group says just go full DPS, which I am happy to oblige.

As far as I am concerned, queuing as a tank without a taunt or a healer without at least one group heal, should be a bannable offense. Anyone can slot Inner fire or Vigor, and for normal dungeons, that's all you need to meet the criteria for your role.

I only ever fake queue + skip to last boss and yet the only place I seem to get called names or "terrible person" is forums lol. In the rare occasion that anybody says something other than "tyfg" after the run, it's usually "wow that was fast", "didn't even know that shortcut" or "thanks for the carry". Which is pretty ironic because I know the dungeon would have gone even faster as a duo that can reset in-combat status and reliably position bosses. Maybe 1 in 20 runs will have toxic people but honestly they'd probably be toxic in their other runs too for one reason or another.

I guess one caveat here is I only do dungeon queues during double XP events, with XP scrolls running. I guess many other people are too, so everyone is on the same page. Don't get me wrong though, just because most groups are happy doesn't mean I'm a fan of the RND system at all. It's not their fault, but most pugs are just too slow. Either let duos queue it for rewards, or just scrap the thing altogether so nobody is forced to do content they don't like doing.

Just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, my wife and I levelled all our alts to undaunted level 10 during 2 days of the event. One day's pledges were Banished Cells 1 and Vaults of Madness, and the other day's pledges were Spindleclutch 1 and City of Ash 1. It took between 3-4 hours on each day to finish 36 vet HM pledges across 18 chars for 200+ undaunted rep each char (by porting in as a duo). Yet doing 18 RNDs is at least 2 hours and often even takes 4 hours to complete, despite having zero queue time (ready checks can still take ages, and fail though). This doesn't make any sense and honestly shouldn't be the case in a game like this. It just feels like a reward system that literally punishes the very players that actually keep it ticking along.

Writing displeased / critical chat messages to unsuportive fake role speedrunning group member after the run is super weird, imo. What would that accomplish? Usually would just survive the 10 min of having horrible time, then silently leave. That person already wasted my x min queue time + time spent in the dungeon. Why waste more time typing anything? It's not like they change their ways to be more supportive of the group and less about "need my reward and need it fast" after reading.

BTW, "wow, that was fast" is what I wrote to the guildie who speed-run (including waterfall skip) FG1 while part of pre-made group created after asking in groupchat if someone would be willing to accompany my lvl 10 tank for rnd, since I've never tanked before and didn't wan't to pug. It wasn't a compliment. (Didn't get to tank at all, didn't get completion credit to level undaunted, didn't get quest completed for skill point. Wasn't as afraid to pug afterwards, though.)

Not getting angry messages doesn't mean nobody minds fake roles and surprise speedruns. Most people don't like confrontation and won't speak up. They just grit their teeth and hope for better group next time.

I can understand some of your perspective here since we all started as new players. Part of it is reasonable. If you made a pre-made group in guild to practice tanking, you should definitely expect guildies to respect your sidebosses and pacing. Maybe even take off all their gear before starting. Personally I loved it when my team moved fast and I did my best to keep up, so forgive me if I interpret the same behavior as a positive experience.

However one needs to be careful to not come across as entitled or selfish or even "toxic casual". What I mean by this is everybody in the group obviously has different needs and you just need to work with what you get. Let me give you a real and thankfully rare example. 2 DDs queue for a DLC dungeon eg SCP and gets us 2 who queued RND. It later becomes obvious that they have never done the dungeon or even have the DPS for it despite being decent CP. Everybody mills around the quest NPC since our alts still have quest. I type "wipe at first boss" and we take off, force pull the DDs in and wipe. They proceed to roll dodge around and heal for a while, much to our annoyance. "Noobs. Dead. This is why you fight mobs" they say. Everyone resses and we start boss, DDs dies in red in first few seconds, bosses drop 10 seconds later. "Fake tank. Fake healer. Ress? Noob run" etc etc. This pattern repeats for the entire run. They die instantly to mobs. We leave them dead on boss pulls just to get it over and done with. The entire time they are vote kicking and ranting about not getting a "teaching run" which they somehow truly believe high cp needs to do for others.

WordsOfPower

Iselin wrote: »

[snip]

Since you're so against fake roles, can you please tell me what standard I have to meet to be considered a fake tank?

Because I've been called fake tank even when wearing Warden/Yolna/Alkosh simply by wanting to speedrun or combine 3 trash pulls in one.

I would urge you to consider how a sense of entitlement works in those players who expect a certain experience from RNDs.

Players are NOT entitled to have people wait for them just because they type 'quest' into Group chat. If those players do wait, it's nice.

Another thing I've been called fake tank for is doing too much damage, which comes from a middle ground build I call 'damage tank'.

My NB tank has both Pierce Armor and Frost Staff, and even FG chain, but does a lot of damage, so sometimes other players see me run ahead, taunt 8 mobs and kill them and assume I'm fake.

The big divide here is not between real and fake tanks but between players that capable of and want to do PUG content quickly, and those that want Story Mode carries.

My advice to those that want to do dungeons slow. Join guilds that do this. There are loads of them.

And everyone reading this thread should look at Nefas video called 'what happened to all the tanks' or something like that

[edited to remove quote]

Iselin

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

[snip]

Because I've been called fake tank even when wearing Warden/Yolna/Alkosh simply by wanting to speedrun or combine 3 trash pulls in one.

[snip]

Edit: And just to be clear, I have nothing against speed runs. I welcome them especially when I'm just doing daily normals and my XP scroll has only a few minutes left. As a matter of fact when I'm on my Stamsorc DPS, with hurricane, whirling blades and caltrops I can drag trash packs better than most tanks who just grab proximity aggro - I grab better aggro because I'm doing constant damage to everything in my way and the healer can take their time following me because I'm also self healing with my crit surge.

But I ask the group if they want to speed run - sometime I add a bit of trying to convince everyone by mentioning my soon to expire XP scroll Even on FG1, although I'd rather swim to the last boss to skip the other two on the way, I ask first and only do it if the rest of the group is OK with it.

That's just respecting others 101.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Cuddlypuff

There's no such thing as a "fake role". Anyone can do all 3 on any char and obviously you queue for the fastest one. I cringe every time people tell you stuff like "Tanks gotta taunt" or "Healers gotta heal" but there's no criteria when it comes to our precious DDs. I agree you can't call them fake but that doesn't really justify negligible DPS. Just a lot of double standards, entitlement and hypocrisy everywhere when it comes to this topic.

The saddest part is I never get any support for my proposal of a duo RND queue option, because the same complainers know that fake tanks and healers are the only thing that keeps dungeon finder alive. We are the heroes ESO needs but doesn't deserve.

alberichtano

ixthUA wrote: »

I guess i didnt express the problem properly.
Fake roles work fine in normal random dungeons, however there are long (5+ minutes) waiting times for DDs, while fake tank and fake healer get queue instantly. If there were more fakes - queues for DDs would be shorter, so how to motivate people to queue as fake roles? I think that tank/healer rewards should be better.

Oh I think we understood, the problem is that you tackle the problem from the wrong angle.

The issue is that if there were more tanks and healers, the wait time for DDs/DPS-ers would be lower. But few want to play a tank or a healer, because they are so thankless roles in almost every type of content, maybe vet trials aside. Everyone wants to be damage dealer because that is where the action is, and that is where the games focus is. Playing a tank or healer is to literally put yourself in a secondary role, one that is often punished by ZOS.