RaikaNA wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you are unwilling to do the role for which you queue, you are a terrible person and part of the problem. Now for normal dungeons, that is a really low bar. You need a Taunt for a tank (that you use on bosses) and some sort of group heal as a healer (that you use when you see people's health bars move). Any attempt to rationalize not doing that makes you a more terrible person.

Of course, if your group is okay with it, run whatever you want. That is why when I queue as a healer, I always type in chat, "going to go hybrid DPS/heals, will go full heals if needed or there are any objections." I do that in normal FG1, I do it in Vet DLC. Works every time. AT least half the time, the group says just go full DPS, which I am happy to oblige.

As far as I am concerned, queuing as a tank without a taunt or a healer without at least one group heal, should be a bannable offense. Anyone can slot Inner fire or Vigor, and for normal dungeons, that's all you need to meet the criteria for your role.

Wow! LOL!!!! Someone is being overly dramatic! Trying to ban everyone who fakes tanks/heals a NORMAL dungeon

As someone who fakes tanks on NORMAL dungeons, I don't see anything wrong with it... People shouldn't get banned over it either LOL. That's just ridiculous! You generally don't need a tank on normal dungeons.. especially on based dungeons. I know Clatterclaw looks pretty badass in fungal grotto, but does it truly need someone to... taunt it? As for heals goes... EVERYONE should have a self-heal slotted on the back of their weapon bar.

There are some major problems in understanding roles. Tank control the mobs and bosses and take a beating on that account. I have seen healers taken over the tank role as the "fake tank" wasn´t able to stand still, block, interrupt. You know normal basic skills. They did that because they have the skills and knowledge.

It doesen´t matter, normal or vet. They should keep to their roles, but not able to in a lot of situations. They drag the boss around in the room, because they are afraid.

Regarding heals. Yes a basic heal in slot is normal on the dd side. As I see often they spam it as it´s a competition. That´s because they are trouble.

You can try to lure people into, whatever rocks your agenda/narative here on the forums. In the game it self, it´s a lot different.

I have never played an mmo or online game, where it´s so easy to ruin people´s dungeon runs as it is in ESO and that effect can be seen in trials as well.

In guilds it´s more easy to control. You simply don´t run dungeons, with these figures and stay away from them.

That said. I like the PS5 system, where you give other group members, honor points.

Just a last thing. ZOS ! Be careful not to put ESO into the gutter.

The other day, I did a pug as a real tank, ended up in Unhallowed Grave.

Asked if people wanted to do the bonus bosses, or just the standard ones. Two players didn't reply. One said "whatever suits". But the two non-responders rushed past the first tunnel to the first secret boss, so I said "Right, okay no bonus bosses then".

Killed the first regular boss. No problem. Nobody's died yet, we're doing reasonably well, they're letting me run ahead and do the pulling, I notice that the group DPS is not world-beating but more than good enough for the dungeon as a whole, so I take on one group at a time rather than try to pull three groups at once into a mass melee, and the mobs go down pretty quickly in fact.

Got to the door puzzles where you have to stand on certain symbols on the floor and get a statue to stab them.

One DPS and the healer (the original two non-responders) quit at this point. Turns out the other DPS was doing most of the damage, and the two who quit were collectively doing less than me.

I queue for replacements. None arrive - not even a DPS, you'd normally expect to fill a DPS reasonably quickly? And no healer, not even a fake. Just as well I'm in my selfish-tank Leeching Plate / Heavy Bahrahas combo (I usually PUG normal in that), so in normal I'm pretty much impervious to anything except mechanic autokills. Slow to run because restoring stamina is an issue, so I can't keep up with racer boys, but I get there and do my job.

We two-man the rest of the dungeon and get all the way to the final boss. Only one wipe, and that was at Ondragore when we mistimed coming out from behind the pillars when the mender ghosts show up.

A third person finally joins via the group finder. We wait, and wait, and wait, for him to get to us - turns out he's running instead of using the portal. He dies twice during the final boss fight, picks up his loot, and runs off again.

Meanwhile, since the DPS who stuck it out has never seen the bonus bosses, once Kjalnar is dead, we run all the way back to the start and decide to take them on so he can get the achievements. We get the job done - even the bit with the double grapple bowing in mid-fight against the second secret boss. It was actually rather fun...

Vaoh wrote: »

I don’t fake queue but a lot of people have misconceptions around this topic. ESO did not used to have a fake role issue.

Since Homestead or Morrowind (2017), Damage Dealers have gained:
• About 50% more Health
• A large amount of free resists
• Significantly more sustain
• An immense amount of damage and healing.... On a target skele fight this is easily 100%+ more damage. However in real content we can “nuke” almost all dungeon enemies, rendering all their mechanics useless and skyrocketing our DPS to insane levels.
• Powerful new sets, buffed abilities, new abilities, new support buffs, etc. Next patch there will be a mythic allowing one-bar players using only 3 skills to pull 130K+ DPS on the raid skele.

And people still wonder why players fake queue for normal fungal grotto 1 😑 Only the newest content is balanced around players having those kind of stats.

ZOS mistake here is that Damage Dealer’s offheals and tankiness never should have increased. All this accomplished is now we rarely need 2 supports in dungeons.

Roles in dungeons just aren't the same anymore. I can't even imagine playing as a healer when it is only somewhat needed for some DLC HM dot-heavy mechs. High end tanking can be pretty fun since you are the buffbot, off-healer AND crowd controller but you will only find satisfaction in a premade with 3 good DPS, not pug queues watching paint dry. Then there's all the unfair criticism from DDs you have to put up with for their own failings.

I actually love that anybody can do all 3 of tanking, dps and healing. That's the entire concept behind solo arenas. If you get a fake tank that can't handle the vet DLC, anyone else can just slot a taunt or heal and get through it just fine. Roles are relevant in trials but they are pre-made, not random. It's time people start viewing dungeons as a freeform group of 4 PEOPLE, not roles. Dungeon design should begin to reflect that too.

RaikaNA wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

You queue as fake tank? Slot inner fire and taunt.
You queue as fake healer? Slot a heal and heal.

[snip]

Lol I do 60-70% group dps as a fake healer or tank. [snip]

That's fine, as long as you have a heal on top of your good dps, because you queued as that role.

What gives you the right to dictate what people put on their weapon bar?


If I queue in as a tank.. why should I waste my flex slot for a taunt when it's being reserved as my self-heal? Perhaps people should do the same? How on earth are you to make it in vMA when you're struggling to survive a normal-based dungeon?

[edited to remove quote]

I don't have any right, but you queued as a role and you're expected by your group to perform such role.

The solution is more REAL tanks and healers, not fakes, fakes are not the answer you think it is.

Just to add to that, you don't even need some ultra meta 130k parsing build to comfortably solo these RNDs. Been doing it on writ alts for years, still wearing the same sets from 2 years ago without enough skill points for most passives etc. There's no skill requirement. There's no CP or level requirement. There's barely even a dps requirement. You literally just need to run past trash to bosses and smack away. Eventually you'll even figure out which bosses are skippable too.

these are just thoughts about how i feel on this matter,,
let people the game as they like.,. if they have couple heals on them that's because they swop weapons and like to stay alive and help healer to stay alive, lol
some of us are. meh at the game i can be good sometimes and bad some other times.. ever here of sweety hands syndrome lol.. some of use need gloves to have controller iam poor so.. sorry lol..- but that's how it is for me.. i like playing this game the way i do and like to change it up sometimes .. people should be allowed to play how they want its apart of the game in the saying too .. play how you want to start were you want too,, lol

be nice.. be polite,, be good to people .. give advice but don't force things on to people.. that's how i was taught ..
i like tell the truth and nice .. but yes there is one way meant to play but its isn't a permeant thing to go by..
this to me is a free individual liked teamwork thinking playing game .. never have go at people its bullying.. and other things i see as bad is people moaning how play or how look .. thank god for armour customs lol covering up is best.. people then can not be mean to people with types of armour lol sorry but there is alot of good people and also alot mean people too..
meow...on that over and out lol

LesserCircle wrote: »

You queue as fake tank? Slot inner fire and taunt.
You queue as fake healer? Slot a heal and heal.

[snip]

Runefang wrote: »

Lol I do 60-70% group dps as a fake healer or tank. [snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

High DPS for a tank means you are not pulling properly and screwing up the DPS' job.

High DPS for a healer means you are not buffing, healing and contributing to resources of the team.

I could not be "proud" of not doing my job.

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

There's no such thing as a "fake role". Anyone can do all 3 on any char and obviously you queue for the fastest one. I cringe every time people tell you stuff like "Tanks gotta taunt" or "Healers gotta heal" but there's no criteria when it comes to our precious DDs. I agree you can't call them fake but that doesn't really justify negligible DPS. Just a lot of double standards, entitlement and hypocrisy everywhere when it comes to this topic.

The saddest part is I never get any support for my proposal of a duo RND queue option, because the same complainers know that fake tanks and healers are the only thing that keeps dungeon finder alive. We are the heroes ESO needs but doesn't deserve.

I would fully support the duo RND queue option for sure. It needs to happen, so people can queue up with like minded people.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

After reading all of this it seems that the Damage Dealers who queue as tanks or healers seem to be saying that their DPS is so awesome that they shouldn't have to wait the extra 10-15 minutes in the random queue. And if the other people in the dungeon have a problem with that it's because their DPS is poor. I think that if fakers are that good they should solo (as mentioned by others), but if they need a group then the group is owed respect. When you sign on as a role, tank, healer ect. it's sort of like a contract you've said that you'll provide support to the group, you owe it to the group to provide that support.

Those crappy Damage Dealers want to have fun too, you signed up to help them with that by taking a support role. If your DPS is that great shouldn't you be able to slot one or two of those support skills and still kills bosses/mobs quickly?

To clarify this discussion is only about RND, and the fact that it is almost always faster to solo/duo the dungeon than do it with queue pugs (whether they have DPS or not is irrelevant - I'll explain later). It wouldn't surprise me at all if the majority of RND queuers are already fake tanks and healers simply because it comes down to a time and efficiency thing. Nobody is queueing pledges as fakes because it is faster to solo/duo them. We've already tested this as a duo and doing 36 vet hm pledges by walking in (we picked easy days), is faster than doing 18 RNDs by queueing (see details in an earlier reply).

The issue boils down to your definition of what a RND is. From a game design perspective, ZOS made it as a tool to fill dungeon queues, and incentivizes people to do so with a reward. For others it is a straight up XP and transmute grind. Under ordinary circumstances, the reward is not that great compared to the nBRP XP grind or Cyrodiil monthly transmute grind. However, during double XP and with an extra 100% XP scroll, you start hitting around 350K XP per completion or over 6M XP + 180 transmutes for 18 characters. Now it just becomes a matter of how long it takes to clear 18 characters, hence the speedrunners you see during and immediately after double XP events.

As a duo, 18 normals can usually be run in under 2 hours, assuming no more than half are DLCs. That still makes it reasonably rewarding compared to other grinds. The addition of pugs regardless of their DPS makes it extremely difficult to speedrun, eg refusing to wipe and clear combat for doors/levers/preventing boss spawn bugs, holding up trigger mobs by being slow, repositioning bosses by being too far, needlessly engaging optional bosses that have a teleport to encounter triggers etc. We don't even attempt half the skips possible because we just know it will be impossible to pull off with pugs. You're now spending 3-4 hours for the same reward but a lot more headache and frustration, and you start to wonder if the grind is even worth it anymore.

And there is no social contract here, people sign on to a RND to get the reward. They'd prefer to solo the damn thing if it was possible rather than deal with pugs. If a fair system existed, we'd be matched with other people who signed onto a RND for rewards as well. This is clearly not the case most of the time. Why does nobody talk about respect for people that queued for a fast RND and the expectations that entails? Does it become an uncomfortable topic once the viewpoints are flipped?

newtinmpls wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

You queue as fake tank? Slot inner fire and taunt.
You queue as fake healer? Slot a heal and heal.

[snip]

Runefang wrote: »

Lol I do 60-70% group dps as a fake healer or tank. [snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

High DPS for a tank means you are not pulling properly and screwing up the DPS' job.

High DPS for a healer means you are not buffing, healing and contributing to resources of the team.

I could not be "proud" of not doing my job.

I run a single heal and provide orbs for resources. No buff to the dps players is remotely worth stopping my own damage for.

As for “doing my job” I am doing more to aid the group in clearing the dungeon than the 2 dps.

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

After reading all of this it seems that the Damage Dealers who queue as tanks or healers seem to be saying that their DPS is so awesome that they shouldn't have to wait the extra 10-15 minutes in the random queue. And if the other people in the dungeon have a problem with that it's because their DPS is poor. I think that if fakers are that good they should solo (as mentioned by others), but if they need a group then the group is owed respect. When you sign on as a role, tank, healer ect. it's sort of like a contract you've said that you'll provide support to the group, you owe it to the group to provide that support.

Those crappy Damage Dealers want to have fun too, you signed up to help them with that by taking a support role. If your DPS is that great shouldn't you be able to slot one or two of those support skills and still kills bosses/mobs quickly?

To clarify this discussion is only about RND, and the fact that it is almost always faster to solo/duo the dungeon than do it with queue pugs (whether they have DPS or not is irrelevant - I'll explain later). It wouldn't surprise me at all if the majority of RND queuers are already fake tanks and healers simply because it comes down to a time and efficiency thing. Nobody is queueing pledges as fakes because it is faster to solo/duo them. We've already tested this as a duo and doing 36 vet hm pledges by walking in (we picked easy days), is faster than doing 18 RNDs by queueing (see details in an earlier reply).

The issue boils down to your definition of what a RND is. From a game design perspective, ZOS made it as a tool to fill dungeon queues, and incentivizes people to do so with a reward. For others it is a straight up XP and transmute grind. Under ordinary circumstances, the reward is not that great compared to the nBRP XP grind or Cyrodiil monthly transmute grind. However, during double XP and with an extra 100% XP scroll, you start hitting around 350K XP per completion or over 6M XP + 180 transmutes for 18 characters. Now it just becomes a matter of how long it takes to clear 18 characters, hence the speedrunners you see during and immediately after double XP events.

As a duo, 18 normals can usually be run in under 2 hours, assuming no more than half are DLCs. That still makes it reasonably rewarding compared to other grinds. The addition of pugs regardless of their DPS makes it extremely difficult to speedrun, eg refusing to wipe and clear combat for doors/levers/preventing boss spawn bugs, holding up trigger mobs by being slow, repositioning bosses by being too far, needlessly engaging optional bosses that have a teleport to encounter triggers etc. We don't even attempt half the skips possible because we just know it will be impossible to pull off with pugs. You're now spending 3-4 hours for the same reward but a lot more headache and frustration, and you start to wonder if the grind is even worth it anymore.

And there is no social contract here, people sign on to a RND to get the reward. They'd prefer to solo the damn thing if it was possible rather than deal with pugs. If a fair system existed, we'd be matched with other people who signed onto a RND for rewards as well. This is clearly not the case most of the time. Why does nobody talk about respect for people that queued for a fast RND and the expectations that entails? Does it become an uncomfortable topic once the viewpoints are flipped?

I get what you're saying. And yes, as I mentioned earlier randoms can be a pain. But on at least one point I beg to differ. ANYTIME you involve another player there is a social contract. Sometimes it'll favor you and you all will want to blast through, use all the tricks to skip, avoid, and dismiss much of the dungeon just for the prize. And sometimes there will be people who can't do that, or will want to do the dungeon the way it was made, but now can't because these "superstars" who never had to struggle and were always "the best of the best SIR" lied about their role and rush off, leaving them to die because other players are an inconvenience apparently. If the group is cool with it, blast off and more power to ya. If they're not don't bend over the ones who didn't lie their way in. Either way is respecting the group, and that's what everyone keeps saying.

Lumenn wrote: »

Perhaps it's BECAUSE I solo so often but why do speed runners bother to que for normals. If we're talking about randoms then ok, luck of the draw I get it, but if it's one of the undaunted dailies why?

Answering for myself. It's because I've done all these dungeons hundreds if not thousands of times, loathe doing them, hate PvE in general, but ZoS have not provided any other method of obtaining Keys and Transmutes for endgame players.

If they ever make it so 5000 points in a 10 minute BG daily give me 2 keys and 10 Transmutes, you will never see me in RND again.

Do you know what it's like to know all the NPC dialogue off by heart without even trying?

Or to be kicked as a tank with 2 taunts that flawlessly handles adds while also nuking them?

Solo the dungeon you say? It's gonna take even longer.

You think that speedrunners should not be included in runs with people that want to do the dungeon slow, and I think that the latter group should make their own guild (many exist) and then the only people in RNDs would be speedrunners and there would be no problem.

The game is already weighted in favour of casual players. Stop trying to make the game unplayable for people who've been playing 7 years.

I see almost no sign of empathy from the other side at all.

I help new players all the time. I do my part. So let me run the dungeons fast, until I have another source of Transmutes and Keys