Sorcerer Vs. Necromancer

RisenEclipse · April 2022

Necromancer

Shagreth wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

I used to exclusively play sorc for a few years. But when necro came out I tried that out. So I'm very familiar with how both classes work. After playing necro, I fell in love with it, and now exclusively play necro now. It just fits better with my play style then sorc. I have way more fun playing the class.

Interesting. What is it that you like more, is the rotation more 'involving'? mag or stam btw

I do magcro. But I'm usually pretty... hesitant to share why I love playing them. As I am not by any means a theory crafter. I am not someone who spends hours pouring over class stats, making charts on which abilities are better, or care to Stat push to the absolute max. I don't care if anyone feels as if my reasonings are not accurate, and the stats of this class over here are better for AoE damage, or the recovery of this class if you do this and this, is better then necro. So usually I just put "I like playing necro." Then leave it at that. As anything more invites sweaty score pushers to come in and state how everything is wrong and how THEIR favorite class is the best... but I'll explain a LITTLE bit on why I like necro.

I have one bar for single target and prefer to stay as far away as possible from the thing im killing. I like using blastbones for this reason. My second bar is my AOE DOT bar and I like the resources I get back while I kill a large amount of things when I stack things on that bar together. It's really fun melting things in a dungeon and basically never going below 70% magicka.

I don't like having to constantly unsummon pets when I don't need them because they annoy me when they permanently flap around behind me while I'm in a city. Because of this I prefer the necros timed pets.

Honestly I just like the feel of a necro. I use a blastbones, get the 50% cost of the next one, increased spell penetration and more resource recovery every time I use it again. Not to mention that my summons drop a corpse which I can then further use. Recycling is always a plus.

Look, everyone can jump up and down and disagree with every point I made and go "well my favorite class does this better!" But I'll still play a necro. They have a dark edgy vibe, they have imo interesting abilities and skills, and I find myself being able to do way better at this game the way that I want to play, with a necro then with a sorc. Sorcs are good. Templars are good. DK is good. Warden is good. NB deserves a special place in hell for ganking... I kid. That's a joke. They're fine too. But necro is a class I really find myself enjoying playing the most out of all the classes (which I have tried them all at least once btw).

Iron_Warrior · April 2022

Necromancer

Call me a masochist but i really really like the corpse mechanic and constant bar swaping on necro, it keeps the combat engaging. Yeah the class is buggy but it's still my favourite class despite the bugs. Also i rather quit the game than become a magsorc with two ugly purple abominations following me!!

propertyOfUndefined · April 2022

Necromancer

You could choose to not use it and get your Major Resolve from something like Mighty Chudan, but I don't think I've seen that a lot. That's certainly what I would do though. I spend so much time designing my outfits and getting facial features just right that a skill like Lightning Form is the last thing I want!

Shagreth · April 2022

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

You could choose to not use it and get your Major Resolve from something like Mighty Chudan, but I don't think I've seen that a lot. That's certainly what I would do though. I spend so much time designing my outfits and getting facial features just right that a skill like Lightning Form is the last thing I want!

I honestly don't know how some people even like the skill, it looks so damn bad, it's like a Tekken 2 effect. I guess there's bad taste for everything.

Honestly, that paired with the fact that I have to waste so many slots to be competitive in PvE is reason enough not to like Sorc. How unfortunate.

alberichtano · April 2022

Neither, in my case.

Sorcerers are too narrow. I would rather call them daedrists or somesuch, as the only sorcery they actually put out is of the daedric variety.

Necromancers... well, they are more toys-with-bones really. I would have imagined more actual undead, especially as pets, much like the sorc combat pets. I mean, that is the whole idea of a necromancer, someone who animates the dead to do tasts for him. Yes, it would be similar to sorcerers, but then necromancers ARE sorcerers specialising in spritis and the undead, so it would make perfect sense.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Sorcerer

Shagreth wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

I used to exclusively play sorc for a few years. But when necro came out I tried that out. So I'm very familiar with how both classes work. After playing necro, I fell in love with it, and now exclusively play necro now. It just fits better with my play style then sorc. I have way more fun playing the class.

Interesting. What is it that you like more, is the rotation more 'involving'? mag or stam btw?

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I think they "why?" comes down to the classic archetype of a Sorcerer and their Familiar. I think they wanted it to feel ever present, as opposed to something that just hung around for 10-12 seconds when casted. Whether that merited two bars or not is certainly debatable. They are very strong, and would be overpowered in the current state if they only needed one slot.

If it were up to me (it's not), I would give the pets slight nerfs, keep the longer summons animations (same instant cast on abilities), and make it so they only needed to be on one bar.

Yeah, it is extremely unfortunate. But I can see now why people consider sorc so easy to play, especially in PvE, I mean, you basically have 4 less spells to mind, okay, not really, but you know. I think this is bad design, and your suggestion should be heard. @ZOS_AlanG

Sorcs have been traditionally one of the easier specs, no doubt. There were a few patches back in the day where sorc rotations went something like: Blockade, Liquid Lighting, Trap, Curse, Prey Familiar HA, HA, repeat, and it was some of the highest DPS in the game. You used a lighting staff on front bar and the splash damage for the time was absurd. This was about a year after VMOL, and you would see groups of 8 sorc DPS, but, it did allow people to finally start clearing vet. VMOL took forever for groups to clear consistently.

Before that, sorc was actually pretty tough. Most people ran no pets, and it really required a good LA weave that was pretty unforgiving when messes up. I remember two sorcs, Streak and YoloWizard that were like 10k ahead of every one else. I could never quite figure out how they did it at the time.

Lastly Its really not 4 less skills, as you still need to manage Volatile familiar like any other DOT, and most DPS have at least one passive skill they dont cast, but admittedly, Twilight is pretty much 100% passive, so two for sure compared to other classes.

Commandment · April 2022

Sorcerer

If you want a class that takes skill, play the necro.
If you want a class that press buttons and does things pick sorc

Agenericname · April 2022

If everything else were equal, meaning skills fired when they were supposed to and the visual effects were equally gaudy, Id prefer the necro to the sorc.

I dont mind the 3s interval of Blast Bones, in fact, I like it. It falls apart because it feels clunky and doesnt always do what its supposed to. If it felt as smooth as a Warden's Shalks, then I'd like it a lot more.

The visual effects of the necro are pretty awful to me. They feel out of place, more so than the sorc's.

On the whole I think the sorc feels smoother to play. Im not a fan of double barring pets, but, as @Oreyn_Bearclaw put it, youre not giving up 4 slots, its more like 2. Theres usually a passive slot there anyway. Still, it cuts into the variety a little more than I would like.

I think if I had to choose it would be the sorc over the necro simply because it feels a lot more smooth in content, but, lately Ive been playing my hybrid necro more than my sorc. Even with the buggy nature of blast bones I find the rotation a little more intersting than the sorc's.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Sorcerer

Commandment wrote: »

If you want a class that takes skill, play the necro.
If you want a class that press buttons and does things pick sorc

I will push back in this a bit as I think its over simplified. There are very easy versions of sorcs that do pretty darn good DPS, perhaps not so much with necro. That said, the 15 second static rotations for necro are pretty solid. More bar swaps perhaps, but static rotations really arent that hard with practice.

If you want to do great DPS with either class, I am not sure there is much difference in difficulty TBH. I have way more experience on sorc, but it took an afternoon of parsing with a 100% static rotation (30 seconds)on my necro to break 120k this patch, which I still cannot do with my sorc.

Big problem with sorc it that weaving frags as a hard cast is not easy because you cant swap off it in a dynamic rotation. Static sorc rotation is probably a bit easier than static necro rotation, but static sorc is lower DPS in my experience. Really comes down to what is harder, dealing with a 3 second skill (lots of bar swaps), or dealing with a 0.8second channel as a spam.

Personally, I think the swaps are easier.

In the current meta, just play DK. Can be played both dynamically and statically, lots of options, difficulty level is fairly low if you can handle melee range. If someone deleted my account tomorrow, I still probably roll a Mageblade first. They are a little behind in the current meta, but that never lasts long. A good mageblade is going to be welcome in most raids. Similar to a petless sorc, perhaps higher on the difficulty level to play, but a good rotation is rewarded. If you want to play sorc but dont like pets, NB is the clear answer.

Folkb · April 2022

Necromancer

Skelly boi's go BOOM!

Alinhbo_Tyaka · April 2022

Sorcerer

Like other posters I prefer the sorcerer having found the necromancer clunky in its rotation and play.

Shagreth · April 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In the current meta, just play DK. Can be played both dynamically and statically, lots of options, difficulty level is fairly low if you can handle melee range. If someone deleted my account tomorrow, I still probably roll a Mageblade first. They are a little behind in the current meta, but that never lasts long. A good mageblade is going to be welcome in most raids. Similar to a petless sorc, perhaps higher on the difficulty level to play, but a good rotation is rewarded. If you want to play sorc but dont like pets, NB is the clear answer.

My main is a magblade, so, yeah. Boring animations tbh, I wish there was a class token to change, been at it since frigging beta. I am just incapable of letting go of all I have there, lines, professions etc. and make an alt.

I really like vampirism and that would make it easier sticking to my NB, but seeing how utterly useless it is in PvE, well.. big miss there from ZoS, nothing feels good about the rework.

I get that you still have to manage the pet skills, but still, would much rather be able to have those slots freed up. Sounds like I would enjoy old sorc, what a shame.

I think it has went down to looks for me at this point, hate the fact that when I pvp (pve too?) I am 'forced' to use that lightning form, it's awful. As for Necro's spell effects, I see people feel rather strongly about them, some hate while others love them.

Commandment · April 2022

Sorcerer

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Commandment wrote: »

If you want a class that takes skill, play the necro.
If you want a class that press buttons and does things pick sorc

I will push back in this a bit as I think its over simplified. There are very easy versions of sorcs that do pretty darn good DPS, perhaps not so much with necro. That said, the 15 second static rotations for necro are pretty solid. More bar swaps perhaps, but static rotations really arent that hard with practice.

If you want to do great DPS with either class, I am not sure there is much difference in difficulty TBH. I have way more experience on sorc, but it took an afternoon of parsing with a 100% static rotation (30 seconds)on my necro to break 120k this patch, which I still cannot do with my sorc.

Big problem with sorc it that weaving frags as a hard cast is not easy because you cant swap off it in a dynamic rotation. Static sorc rotation is probably a bit easier than static necro rotation, but static sorc is lower DPS in my experience. Really comes down to what is harder, dealing with a 3 second skill (lots of bar swaps), or dealing with a 0.8second channel as a spam.

Personally, I think the swaps are easier.

In the current meta, just play DK. Can be played both dynamically and statically, lots of options, difficulty level is fairly low if you can handle melee range. If someone deleted my account tomorrow, I still probably roll a Mageblade first. They are a little behind in the current meta, but that never lasts long. A good mageblade is going to be welcome in most raids. Similar to a petless sorc, perhaps higher on the difficulty level to play, but a good rotation is rewarded. If you want to play sorc but dont like pets, NB is the clear answer.

Not when you also have to play around blast bones, and he just stands there looking like a goofball for 4 seconds before jumping.

Lazarus_Rising · April 2022

Necromancer

Gameplay is better with sorc, way smoother. I just love necromancer tho and will stick with the class until the game is ending.

drsalvation · April 2022

I'm not voting entirely because I haven't given sorcs enough time, but I've been enjoying necromancers a lot recently.
I just couldn't get hooked with sorcs... I tried them a long time ago, years, so I don't know how they perform in latest updates, but I always despise dealing with them in PvP.

So I'm just saying I'm more leaning towards necromancer, but I don't think it would be fair to me to vote on it because I haven't experimented with sorc enough.

Shagreth · April 2022

I am in the process of trying both, so far I have to say that Necromancer is winning big time. Reason? It's more interesting, the devs tried a slightly different approach and that's welcome. Sorcerer is extremely straightforward, can never go wrong with it, I admit, but like I said before -- there's a few things that put me off. We'll see if anything changes as I play more.

Cloudless · April 2022

Necromancer

Guess what we can derive from this poll is... nerf sorc?

Shagreth · April 2022

Cloudless wrote: »

Guess what we can derive from this poll is... nerf sorc?

Actually, yes, they should rework parts of the class and nerf a couple of things.

MidniteOwl1913 · April 2022

Necromancer

Honestly, it just seems a waste of time to debate the pluses and minuses because at a whim it can all be changed. In fact, talking about how great a class is at something is probably the first sign it will be next on the chopping block.

Zezin · April 2022

Necromancer

Necro is the most fun class to play for me, it's fast and requires constant action on the players part which I understand is not for everyone. Necromancer is extremely versatile in that you can fill any role in most encounters, the pets for Necro are much better than the sorc's(no flappy poopy chicken in my face 24/7). And since last patch the sustain has shot through the roof I'm able to sustain bi stat food everywhere except for solo content masking me very survivable to the point where I can shrug off stuff that can kill a sorcerer quite easily.

So yeah Necro is better.

P.S: why are you all saying the corpse mechanic is complicated? Just cast blastbones you'll never run out of corpses.

Molydeus · April 2022

Sorcerer

Shagreth wrote: »

Cloudless wrote: »

Guess what we can derive from this poll is... nerf sorc?

Actually, yes, they should rework parts of the class and nerf a couple of things.

No.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Sorcerer

Zezin wrote: »

Necro is the most fun class to play for me, it's fast and requires constant action on the players part which I understand is not for everyone. Necromancer is extremely versatile in that you can fill any role in most encounters, the pets for Necro are much better than the sorc's(no flappy poopy chicken in my face 24/7). And since last patch the sustain has shot through the roof I'm able to sustain bi stat food everywhere except for solo content masking me very survivable to the point where I can shrug off stuff that can kill a sorcerer quite easily.

So yeah Necro is better.

P.S: why are you all saying the corpse mechanic is complicated? Just cast blastbones you'll never run out of corpses.

That part is very true. If your rotation is good, corpses really aren't an issue on necro. Only exception is sometimes the very first cast of Siphon doesn't seem to want to go in a fight, but that is a pretty minor issue. Bigger issue is the blastbones doesn't always work as intended. For the most part, it works fine if in melee range.

Shagreth wrote: »

Cloudless wrote: »

Guess what we can derive from this poll is... nerf sorc?

Actually, yes, they should rework parts of the class and nerf a couple of things.

Sorcs are probably the most nerfed class over the years. Please dont let this become a nerf sorc thread. Only possible nerf I see would be to pets if you made them only take one slot, but assuming its balanced, not sure that really is a nerf.

RedFireDisco · April 2022

Sorcerer

Sorcs are probably the most nerfed class over the years. Please dont let this become a nerf sorc thread. Only possible nerf I see would be to pets if you made them only take one slot, but assuming its balanced, not sure that really is a nerf. [/quote]

Sorcs were nerfed because they have always had way more of everything than every class.

Massive defense in ward, escape with streak, body block and passive damage with pets, and in and on.

Use to be able to pop 2 shields pre-fight and enter with full mag and temporary invincibility.

Even now the sorc passives are the best in the game hence no one min-maxes werewolf without playing sorc.

Magblade has been nerfed directly and indirectly since inception and must surely win most nerfed category as far as consistent nerf when stamblades were the op problem.

DreamyLu · April 2022

Necromancer

I started with a sorcerer and leveled it up to 50, but rapidly, I did swap for Templar, because I play solo and need to have efficient self-healing. I never found a satisfying self-healing with sorcerer.

I tested a necromancer up to level 16 and found it fun. However, I was too lazy to finish the leveling up and gave up on it. I keep playing with my templar...

Marginis · April 2022

I wonder which class actually had the most nerfs over the years. My money's on Nightblade, not Sorc or Necro.

Shagreth · April 2022

Marginis wrote: »

I wonder which class actually had the most nerfs over the years. My money's on Nightblade, not Sorc or Necro.

Nightblade for sure, I've shed many tears for my magblade, it's a little better now, but still quite weak when compared to other builds.

Michaelkeir · April 2022

Necromancer

I’ve played a sorcerer for as long as this game has been out (on consoles). My 1st and main has been a pet sorc. I’ve done just about everything on my sorc, from trails, overland, arenas, and even a small bit of pvp. From a fantasy and fun factor point of view I’d say a sorc is a solid choice. The ease of use to me is much better than a necromancer. The class basically plays itself. To me, it truly feels much more like a caster(with pets) to me.

Now for necromancers. I have to admit I love them. I’m a big fan of necro fantasy play style. Every Elder scrolls game I’ve played I lean towards necromancy. I started this game thinking necromancy was a play style. Sadly I found out it wasn’t so I picked a sorc as the next best thing. But the reason I voted for sorcerers is because to me necromancy doesn’t really feel like true traditional Elder Scrolls necromancy to me.
-The pet system for them feels lacking. No permanent pets is a deal breaker for me. I know most people hate permanent pets, but I love them. Currently the necro pets are glorified Dots. Their damage should be higher, and the pets duration should be extended at the very least.
-The class heavily relies on Blast Bones for most of its damage and that to me feels a bit odd.
-And they lack any curse, debuff, or drain ability. Sorcs have a curse, but that seems more like necro ability to me.

All in all I love the concept of a necromancer. But I feel it has been implemented poorly in this game. I honestly feel it should have been built around a pet centered play style. Summoning and buffing your minions while simultaneously debuffing and cursing your enemies. But on a whole , the class is solid. Good for tanking and healing. So they’ve got that going for them. Just wish there were more to them then what we currently have.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Sorcerer

Shagreth wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I wonder which class actually had the most nerfs over the years. My money's on Nightblade, not Sorc or Necro.

Nightblade for sure, I've shed many tears for my magblade, it's a little better now, but still quite weak when compared to other builds.

Not sure that is really true. Dont get me wrong, I think mag Sorcs are more powerful than mag NBs currently. But I think that is a more a function of their overall design being left behind, rather than specific nerfs to skills. NBs at/near launch, were the best all around class from a design standpoint IMO. They had a skill for EVERYTHING. Mag and stam Spammable, Mag and Stam Execute, mag and stam class apex skill (relentless/merciless), Mag and stam sustain tool, mag and stam AOE spam, Gap closers, Cloak, heal on damage, AOE and singlet target dots, etc. The problem with NB is that other non class options have simply surpassed them. Sorc has had more targeted nerfs to specific skills.

This is really an academic debate as to how we got where we are today, but again, mageblade certainly needs a buff. Sorc is my most played class, Mageblade is the class I have been playing the most for the last 2 years or so.

Historically, I would have said sorc is easier and has a higher floor, where as mageblade is harder but has a higher ceiling, and I was okay with that tradeoff. I don't believe that is the case any longer.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · April 2022

Sorcerer

Necromancer just feels slow and clunky. That's why I shelved mine.

Marginis · April 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I wonder which class actually had the most nerfs over the years. My money's on Nightblade, not Sorc or Necro.

Nightblade for sure, I've shed many tears for my magblade, it's a little better now, but still quite weak when compared to other builds.

Not sure that is really true. Dont get me wrong, I think mag Sorcs are more powerful than mag NBs currently. But I think that is a more a function of their overall design being left behind, rather than specific nerfs to skills. NBs at/near launch, were the best all around class from a design standpoint IMO. They had a skill for EVERYTHING. Mag and stam Spammable, Mag and Stam Execute, mag and stam class apex skill (relentless/merciless), Mag and stam sustain tool, mag and stam AOE spam, Gap closers, Cloak, heal on damage, AOE and singlet target dots, etc. The problem with NB is that other non class options have simply surpassed them. Sorc has had more targeted nerfs to specific skills.

This is really an academic debate as to how we got where we are today, but again, mageblade certainly needs a buff. Sorc is my most played class, Mageblade is the class I have been playing the most for the last 2 years or so.

Historically, I would have said sorc is easier and has a higher floor, where as mageblade is harder but has a higher ceiling, and I was okay with that tradeoff. I don't believe that is the case any longer.

I was particularly curious about quantifying nerfs and buffs to classes, specifically. Might give a new channel to compare Sorcerer and Necromancer - with numbers - relevantly to the thread. Perhaps what skills have received the biggest nerfs and buffs stat-wise, and how many skills or nerfs/buffs have gone through since 2014 (presumably we wouldn't be counting the beta).

Again, I don't have the time for this myself, but if someone does I'll give them an awesome and a firm internet handshake.