Magplar & Magdk and how to kill class identity

VarisVaris · March 2022

Ever since the game launched both magplar and magdk (and all other specs) had distinct philosophies behind their gameplay identity.
You could have removed every single animation from the game and anyone could have told you in less than 5 seconds which class you were facing only by looking at your and their HP bar and which actions they perform.

Magdk was always centered around being a brawler that has to fight in order to stay alive and brawl even more, every skill reflected this, embers requiring you to recast it to get the heal early, power lash, inhale, talons enabling power lash as did fossilize.
This ment you had to push further and were doomed when you wanted to run away as your heals wouldn't save you unless you actually fought for them.

On the opposite spectrum for brawlers we had magplar, a class ment to do the same task but with a completely different approach.
For a magdk offense and defense were the same thing and were strictly combined. For magplar offense and defense were strictly separated as you wouldn't get much heals while being offensive while your damage would crumble if played defensively.
This was balanced by giving magplar overtuned offensive capabilities which they wouldn't be able to use all the time but only in their short and distinct offensive windows.

These differences made playing the classes a thrill and were the biggest contributors of Eso's PvP long term motivation, you could play 8 different specs were so different from one another that by the time you've cycled through all of them you were tempted to start again because you always had to relearn the classes and adapt to their own playstyle.

Sadly those days are long gone classes like Warden and necromancer never got to experience this thrill of being unique because they are just redskins of the same failed attempt to give classes 1 damage 1 healing and 1 tank skill line which causes them to play exactly the same.

But throughout the last few months the identity of magplars and magdks have been removed completely by giving them everything and more.
Magdk has gotten ridiculous sustain buffs via combustion+charged, battle roar and power lash changes while burning embers has been changed into a hot keeping you alive even when you're not fighting, additionally magdk got access to corrosive armor, a ult that was meant to give stamdk an edge in terms of pressure for it's duration.

Magplar got equally ridiculous buffs, living darkness is one of the most overperforming skills the game has ever seen, you can stay alive with 0 efforts simply by using that skill on cooldown because on the right build it heals you for up to 8k per second in pvp.
But it does not stop there, magplar has also gotten more heals over time with the rework to rune now working as a hot while standing on it.
With Ascending Tides magplar has been given access to an even more ridiculous offensive skill in the form of piercing javalin which now removes any form of Counterplay you had against a magplar because jabs, beam and crescent sweep already ignored dodge while the crescent sweep dot and backlash already ignored block.

This means that magplar is no longer forced into differentiating between offense and defense but can exploit completely overtuned offense with no counter at all while also having completely overtuned defense alongside.

I haven't even gotten to talk about another overperforming skill in the Templar toolkit that was once balanced by it's gameplay identity: Toppling charge.
Most veterans will remember that back in the days we had another gap closer that could stun, I'm talking ofc about ambush but unlike ambush that got it's stun removed and was further nerfed by giving it a 400ms casttime (the hell????) toppling charge was allowed to keep it's stun while also applying off balance and the sole reason why this wasn't an issue was that magplar played completely different than stamnb and could only generate offensive windows by using toppling charge while being held back by it's defense requiring you to deal any significant damage.

The result of those changes are that magplar and magdk dominate PvP currently because there is no option for them to die, if you do mistakes on either of those specs it doesn't matter because you have training wheels on your training wheels both for your offensive and defensive needs.
This power came at the cost of their identity and more importantly at the cost of them being thrilling classes to play, they simply aren't anymore and the only thing more painful than playing one is playing against one of them.

@ZOS_Gilliam you have failed to preserve class identity and have made the game as unenjoyable as it has ever been in PvP and the worst thing is that people have warned you about this over and over again but you've chosen to ignore those people.

VarisVaris · March 2022

After playing this patch for 2 days now I can confidently say that this is the worst patch that we had to endure for years.

I have no intention to play either magplar or magdk ever again because they are no longer fun to play even when they allow for laughably easy 1vX.

Mayrael · March 2022

I agree with the OP. The change in skill scaling alone has upset the balance and the additional buffs for the already strongest classes only exacerbates the problem. I tried to play some PvP, but this time I'll pass, I think it's time for another long break from the game, because for the next few months (if not years) nothing will change. I hoped that there will be some kind of classes balancing, but I did not expect that the best classes will receive buffs. Thank you but no thank you.

rauyran · March 2022

I'm pretty sure that some of the reasoning behind hybrid stats is that ZOS wants you to play a "Dragonknight" not a "magdk" or "stamdk". They want us to focus on the identity of the 6 classes, not the 12 artificial splits.

VarisVaris · March 2022

rauyran wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that some of the reasoning behind hybrid stats is that ZOS wants you to play a "Dragonknight" not a "magdk" or "stamdk". They want us to focus on the identity of the 6 classes, not the 12 artificial splits.

Which is a horribly bad decision.
Of the old 4 classes none of the magicka and Stamina counterparts had the same playstyle and identity.
Not gonna count Warden and necro because they are basically the same playstyle which wasn't engaging to begin with.

The joy of the game was being able to choose from 10 (12 if you want to count Warden and necro as unique classes) specs that had a different playstyle identity.

People didn't just specify that they are a stamdk, stamnb, magsorc or magplar main without a reason it was because it was important to stress it as they enjoyed playing their unique spec and not just being part of a class that has a single optimal build.

Larcomar · March 2022

VarisVaris wrote: »

After playing this patch for 2 days now I can confidently say that this is the worst patch that we had to endure for years.

I have no intention to play either magplar or magdk ever again because they are no longer fun to play even when they allow for laughably easy 1vX.

But you don't play them do you? You've made it abundantly clear in repeated posts that you think they're "ridiculously OP," anyone who plays them is by definition a bad player, and anyone who disagrees with you clearly doesn't know what they're talking about....

Look, you want them nerfed, I get that. Do we really need a new post every two days? Particularly dressed up as a plea for class identity or whatever this is. I personally don't think nightblades are in a bad spot right now - if anything cloak is a little overbuffed - but I'm sure zos will take a look at them in due course. More generally, stamina specs just got a very nice buff from hybridization which I don't think people have even worked through yet. All sorts of opportunities....

Balance may not be perfect but it's a lot better than it has been for a while. And, overall, this feels like it's been a pretty good patch. Do we really want to go back to the days when everyone played stamina? And indeed half of them played warden...

VarisVaris · March 2022

Larcomar wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

After playing this patch for 2 days now I can confidently say that this is the worst patch that we had to endure for years.

I have no intention to play either magplar or magdk ever again because they are no longer fun to play even when they allow for laughably easy 1vX.

But you don't play them do you? You've made it abundantly clear in repeated posts that you think they're "ridiculously OP," anyone who plays them is by definition a bad player, and anyone who disagrees with you clearly doesn't know what they're talking about....

Look, you want them nerfed, I get that. Do we really need a new post every two days? Particularly dressed up as a plea for class identity or whatever this is. I personally don't think nightblades are in a bad spot right now - if anything cloak is a little overbuffed - but I'm sure zos will take a look at them in due course. More generally, stamina specs just got a very nice buff from hybridization which I don't think people have even worked through yet. All sorts of opportunities....

Balance may not be perfect but it's a lot better than it has been for a while. And, overall, this feels like it's been a pretty good patch. Do we really want to go back to the days when everyone played stamina? And indeed half of them played warden...

I've played them and I've 1vXed you on both of them in the past.

But I don't have any intents to play them again as what made them once fun to play has been deluded and ruined to a point where they aren't any fun to play.

The only thing Zos has brought in this patch was removing opportunities because there is now a single viable build for all classes which uses the exact same skills on what was once called magicka or stamina spec of the respective classes.

And yes I will call for nerfs as I do everytime something is clearly overperforming because I do not find any joy in playing with or against something completely busted that removes the last bits of skill gap that this game had.

the1andonlyskwex · March 2022

VarisVaris wrote: »

On the opposite spectrum for brawlers we had magplar, a class ment to do the same task but with a completely different approach.
For a magdk offense and defense were the same thing and were strictly combined. For magplar offense and defense were strictly separated as you wouldn't get much heals while being offensive while your damage would crumble if played defensively.
This was balanced by giving magplar overtuned offensive capabilities which they wouldn't be able to use all the time but only in their short and distinct offensive windows.

Puncturing Sweep has healed for 40% of the damage done for ages, so I don't understand where you're coming from here.

VarisVaris · March 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

On the opposite spectrum for brawlers we had magplar, a class ment to do the same task but with a completely different approach.
For a magdk offense and defense were the same thing and were strictly combined. For magplar offense and defense were strictly separated as you wouldn't get much heals while being offensive while your damage would crumble if played defensively.
This was balanced by giving magplar overtuned offensive capabilities which they wouldn't be able to use all the time but only in their short and distinct offensive windows.

Puncturing Sweep has healed for 40% of the damage done for ages, so I don't understand where you're coming from here.

The 40% heal was far from being enough to counteract high incoming damage which allowed pushing a magplar back into playing defensively when they went offensive

xDeusEJRx · March 2022

rauyran wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that some of the reasoning behind hybrid stats is that ZOS wants you to play a "Dragonknight" not a "magdk" or "stamdk". They want us to focus on the identity of the 6 classes, not the 12 artificial splits.

That would be great if some classes didn't have a bunch of useless abilities in their toolkit. Like necromancer has a super terrible offensive toolkit, only their defensive abilities are somewhat worth using but stamcro could always use those abilities despite magic dependency.
Templar is the same way, the most important abilities always had hybrid scaling like Living dark, Extended ritual/Ritual of retribution and the ults already having dynamic scaling.

For some classes it's a big change, but on some classes it's really underwhelming. Some just aren't getting as much out of this from their classes toolkits because the toolkits are just really not good to begin with.

Templar has mostly been the same skill kit from magplar/stamplar because a lot of the best abilities are already hybrid to a degree like living dark,extended ritual. I guess stamplar can use solar barrage and honor the dead now.
Necromancer's usually dont even use their class toolkit because it just sucks let's be honest. Necro's only use graveyard synergy, colossus ultimate and bone goliath transformation with blastbones.
The rest of the toolkit just sucks, having the defensive toolkit and heals are nice but stamcro was always using magcro abilities anyways despite mag cost.
Warden isn't changing that much either cause warden toolkit is just garbage outside of deep fissure/subterannean and northern storm. The bear is okay but requires double barring and pet behavior is just stupid(it should honestly not be an ult but an ability any pet shouldnt require an ultimate slot) Wardens always have been looking for damage outside the class kit to be worthwhile and this will still be the case with this change
Dragonknight has pretty much mostly been merged into one class because of deadlands, stamDK and magDK are basically one and the same already, only thing stamDK is gonna gain is inhale.
Sorcerer is pretty big I suppose, having access to bound armaments, curse, mages wrath, on mag/stam sorc is a big change, sorc seems to be the biggest winner from hybridization

This whole hybridization thing is a flop because the class toolkits of the main classes are just too garbage to begin with, they should've focused on reworking the toolkits to make them worthwhile before going this route, just too many abilities are not viable and people just end up seeking outside sources of damage so the whole "It's Dragonknight instead of magDK vs StamDK thing or Warden vs Stamden and Magden doesn't work when the abilities just aren't worth using in the first place. Like I might use vampire abilities on my stam characters now but that hardly affects the class dynamic cause class abilities just suck and they aren't making an effort to make them better

VarisVaris · April 2022

With every day passing the meta becomes worse and the problems become more apparent.
Loads of people rerolled magplar or magdks and became threats when they've been easy pickings for years and their gameplay hasn't improved at all they just get carried by magplar and magdk.

olsborg · April 2022

Very well written. Yes magdk and magplar are extremely strong compared to everything else, the kicker is they even gave them buffs with the recent patch. Mindblowing ikr. Wondering whats going on with the team in charge of balance, because they are definately not playing eso(pvp)

Larcomar · April 2022

Is balance perfect, no. But it's a lot better than it has been for a long time. We get it, you're struggling to kill people you used to think were "easy pickings" and you don't like it. But do you really need to keep bumping your own thread?

I get that shifts in the meta can be tough to adapt to but it doesn't mean the game's broke. Have you considered that, just maybe, the reason you're struggling is because they took out some stuff that was pretty cheesy, rather than anything else?

Bradyfjord · April 2022

While I see the OP's point, I think their plan is to address this with tuning going forward. Most games get this 'redrawing' of class balance every once in a while. My main issue with ZOS approach to balance is how they tend towards a binary kind of balance (good or bad). They rarely do fine tuning.

VarisVaris · April 2022

Larcomar wrote: »

Is balance perfect, no. But it's a lot better than it has been for a long time. We get it, you're struggling to kill people you used to think were "easy pickings" and you don't like it. But do you really need to keep bumping your own thread?

I get that shifts in the meta can be tough to adapt to but it doesn't mean the game's broke. Have you considered that, just maybe, the reason you're struggling is because they took out some stuff that was pretty cheesy, rather than anything else?

I know it might be hard for some to accept that they are being carried but as someone who plays every single spec in the game and has done so for years I am fairly confident with my ability to notice which skills, sets, classes are imbalanced.

Also this isn't just my opinion but rather consensus amongst every single good player.

I've yet to meet a single person who's not commonly seen as a background artist in a 1vX clip saying that magdk or magplar are good or that the balance changes in the last year have been healthy for the game.

olsborg · April 2022

VarisVaris wrote: »

Magdk has gotten ridiculous sustain buffs via combustion+charged, battle roar and power lash changes while burning embers has been changed into a hot keeping you alive even when you're not fighting, additionally magdk got access to corrosive armor, a ult that was meant to give stamdk an edge in terms of pressure for it's duration.

Magplar got equally ridiculous buffs, living darkness is one of the most overperforming skills the game has ever seen, you can stay alive with 0 efforts simply by using that skill on cooldown because on the right build it heals you for up to 8k per second in pvp.
But it does not stop there, magplar has also gotten more heals over time with the rework to rune now working as a hot while standing on it.
With Ascending Tides magplar has been given access to an even more ridiculous offensive skill in the form of piercing javalin which now removes any form of Counterplay you had against a magplar because jabs, beam and crescent sweep already ignored dodge while the crescent sweep dot and backlash already ignored block.

The points made here is the essence of why myself and everyone I talk to ingame find magdk and magplar way too easy to play and way too hard to play against (unless you are one of the above classes/builds)

KingExecration · April 2022

I disagree with what you’re going for here. Nerf dk and plars healing but keep the rest as is. Cro plar dk and blade are actually good in some way rn. Warden needs some love for sure. Class is a shell. Hence my character name Bearly a Class.

Gets boring seeing same constant nerf cries for dk and plar when cro and blade do the exact same thing but with cracked intensive mender and carry cloak. Both need heavy changes.

I hate seeing class nerfs but healing is the major issue with those classes. They’ve always been built to be the best at healing and always have.

kojou · April 2022

Templars and Magicka DK have been really good, but with minor flaws for a long time. I think they are just getting a lot more attention now because of the recent buffs that fixed the flaws they had.

I was surprised that the healing over time was set to 100% of the damage done with Embers, but it isn't nearly as OP as you are making it sound. Yes it is a nice HoT, and should probably be 75% of damage, but it isn't making bad players good.

I also agree that the combination of Charged and Combustion is probably a bit over tuned, but DKs were in the dog house due to the poor sustain before that buff. Keep in mine that has been fixed for a while now though. I think we will see the cool down of Combustion increased soon.

Templars have been way more awesome than people have realized as well. None of the recent buffs have done anything to change that other than giving them more attention from the player base.

Nightblades on the other hand... I think they are great in PvP, but they need their identity back in PvE. They used to be the class that would give a lot of support off-heals while still doing decent damage, and that has been taken away, and nothing given back. In PvE they are just an inferior version of a Sorc. They still do good damage, but they don't offer anything else and have a harder rotation with terrible DoTs (Please make Cripple good again). BTW the cast time has always been on Ambush, they just added the text telling you it was there to the tool tip.

My biggest problem with Wardens and Necromancers are not the skills themselves, but the clunkiness of the animations. It just doesn't feel smooth and fun to play them. I know that is hard to quantify, and it is probably something I would get used to if I played them more, but I just can't have a good time playing them no matter how much damage they do. Magicka Wardens need a sustain buff though IMO. I can sustain pretty well on any other class, but Magicka Warden.

In summary, I do agree that some tweaks to balance are required, but I disagree that any of the changes are carrying bad players. There are sets that are doing that, but that is another discussion... Bad players are just as easy to kill as they have always been.

Dem_kitkats1 · April 2022

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

This whole hybridization thing is a flop because the class toolkits of the main classes are just too garbage to begin with, they should've focused on reworking the toolkits to make them worthwhile before going this route, just too many abilities are not viable and people just end up seeking outside sources of damage so the whole "It's Dragonknight instead of magDK vs StamDK thing or Warden vs Stamden and Magden doesn't work when the abilities just aren't worth using in the first place. Like I might use vampire abilities on my stam characters now but that hardly affects the class dynamic cause class abilities just suck and they aren't making an effort to make them better

^ THIS

I think this is why people are upset about this patch. Hybridization promises more options and build variety, but half of the skills themselves are weak and unusable. Thus, players still feel pigeonholed, and class imbalances remain. Hybridization can't overcome the lack of options to begin with.

Templar and DK are strong because their strongest skills happen to also be the best well rounded. The toolkit they get to pick from simply has the best balance of healing and damage there is. And then those skills somehow get a buff on top of that. It's also easier for them to achieve survivability because many of their defensive skills are healing based. Since healing is joined to damage, they only really need to worry about one or two stats since their defense scales off of those.

For the other classes that's not the case. For some classes their best skills are only defensive, so they lack damage, and vice versa for the others. If classes need more damage or survivability they often have to make sacrifices on their other stats, which is why there are imbalances amongst the classes. Those players who manage to find the right balance between damage and survivability in the other classes feel too pigeonholed in the ways that they have to achieve it. Players just want more options that are viable and strong within their class' toolkit. Even in the case of Templar and DK it would be nice to have other options rather than the same OP 8 skills.

I'm mostly speaking in terms of PvP. Perhaps there is better balance amongst the classes in PvE. Again though, I think even in PvE class toolkits lack options for more build variation.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail · April 2022

"and this is consensus among every single good player?"

I've an allergic reaction to you big noting yourself and apparently only the people you deem as having a valid voice and you need to be called out on that behaviour.

I agree those classes are overperforming, but that says the others need their toolkit revisited and made to be more appealing.

Right now, every ability and passive on Templar and DragonKnight seem to synergize really well and I want to use them, as they make sense and flow.

Regretfully, on classes like my own Nightblade or Necro I am no where near as excited, and it's much more of a struggle to achieve anywhere near the same result in gameplay, across both PVE and PVP with ease.

Ksariyu · April 2022

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

That would be great if some classes didn't have a bunch of useless abilities in their toolkit. Like necromancer has a super terrible offensive toolkit, only their defensive abilities are somewhat worth using but stamcro could always use those abilities despite magic dependency.
Templar is the same way, the most important abilities always had hybrid scaling like Living dark, Extended ritual/Ritual of retribution and the ults already having dynamic scaling.

For some classes it's a big change, but on some classes it's really underwhelming. Some just aren't getting as much out of this from their classes toolkits because the toolkits are just really not good to begin with.

Templar has mostly been the same skill kit from magplar/stamplar because a lot of the best abilities are already hybrid to a degree like living dark,extended ritual. I guess stamplar can use solar barrage and honor the dead now.
Necromancer's usually dont even use their class toolkit because it just sucks let's be honest. Necro's only use graveyard synergy, colossus ultimate and bone goliath transformation with blastbones.
The rest of the toolkit just sucks, having the defensive toolkit and heals are nice but stamcro was always using magcro abilities anyways despite mag cost.
Warden isn't changing that much either cause warden toolkit is just garbage outside of deep fissure/subterannean and northern storm. The bear is okay but requires double barring and pet behavior is just stupid(it should honestly not be an ult but an ability any pet shouldnt require an ultimate slot) Wardens always have been looking for damage outside the class kit to be worthwhile and this will still be the case with this change
Dragonknight has pretty much mostly been merged into one class because of deadlands, stamDK and magDK are basically one and the same already, only thing stamDK is gonna gain is inhale.
Sorcerer is pretty big I suppose, having access to bound armaments, curse, mages wrath, on mag/stam sorc is a big change, sorc seems to be the biggest winner from hybridization

This whole hybridization thing is a flop because the class toolkits of the main classes are just too garbage to begin with, they should've focused on reworking the toolkits to make them worthwhile before going this route, just too many abilities are not viable and people just end up seeking outside sources of damage so the whole "It's Dragonknight instead of magDK vs StamDK thing or Warden vs Stamden and Magden doesn't work when the abilities just aren't worth using in the first place. Like I might use vampire abilities on my stam characters now but that hardly affects the class dynamic cause class abilities just suck and they aren't making an effort to make them better

I do agree with a lot of the first half, but I don't think hybridization is the problem here. Personally, I think hybridization is great because it gives so many more options for all types of players. But, I do also think that class toolkits in general are underwhelming, not because of stat-scaling but because none of them are cohesive or unique. I also agree that they should be overhauled to some degree, even after the hybrid changes. The classes need something unique so they actually play different than each other, otherwise it's just math to determine what's best, and everything else is aesthetic.

VarisVaris · April 2022

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

"and this is consensus among every single good player?"

I've an allergic reaction to you big noting yourself and apparently only the people you deem as having a valid voice and you need to be called out on that behaviour.

I agree those classes are overperforming, but that says the others need their toolkit revisited and made to be more appealing.

Right now, every ability and passive on Templar and DragonKnight seem to synergize really well and I want to use them, as they make sense and flow.

Regretfully, on classes like my own Nightblade or Necro I am no where near as excited, and it's much more of a struggle to achieve anywhere near the same result in gameplay, across both PVE and PVP with ease.

No, there is no reason for me to regret or even take back what I said.
There are good and bad players in eso and the ability to discuss balance in an objective way highly correlates with the player's skill and amount of classes played.

What khajiit Sniper number 599385 thinks about balance is irrelevant because he's sitting in a 40man zerg and doesn't have to rely on their class and skill to get stuff done and has no grasp on the subject to begin with.

Larcomar · April 2022

I think there is an argument to be had about who the game is for, and who it should be balanced for. You might not like it, but "khajiit Sniper number 599385" has just as much right to be here as you. Indeed, given that you seem to think there are at least 599385 khajiit Snipers out there, why should zos be balancing the game for you as opposed to all of them...?

That though isn't really the pt. Look, everyone's entitled to their opinion. You have yours, I have mine, kasriyu has his/her's. And khajiit Sniper number 599385 probably has some thoughts too. You may not agree with them and it's fine to say you don't. But I tend to have a bit of an allergic reaction to some of this too.

You make some interesting points but in half your posts you go on to claim that you're "someone who plays every single spec in the game and has done so for years..."(really - every single spec in the game!?); that "this isn't just my opinion but rather consensus amongst every single good player;" and, of course, my personal favorite, anyone who disagrees with you is "either lying or a genuine bad player."

I mean, it's your call. But generally, the way debates work is that you make a point, they make a point, one points better than another and everyone either agrees. Or doesn't. Just announcing that you know it all, anyone who's any good agrees with you, and anyone who disagrees with you is "trash" isn't just a tad toxic. It undermines your credibility.

VarisVaris · April 2022

Larcomar wrote: »

I think there is an argument to be had about who the game is for, and who it should be balanced for. You might not like it, but "khajiit Sniper number 599385" has just as much right to be here as you. Indeed, given that you seem to think there are at least 599385 khajiit Snipers out there, why should zos be balancing the game for you as opposed to all of them...?

That though isn't really the pt. Look, everyone's entitled to their opinion. You have yours, I have mine, kasriyu has his/her's. And khajiit Sniper number 599385 probably has some thoughts too. You may not agree with them and it's fine to say you don't. But I tend to have a bit of an allergic reaction to some of this too.

You make some interesting points but in half your posts you go on to claim that you're "someone who plays every single spec in the game and has done so for years..."(really - every single spec in the game!?); that "this isn't just my opinion but rather consensus amongst every single good player;" and, of course, my personal favorite, anyone who disagrees with you is "either lying or a genuine bad player."

I mean, it's your call. But generally, the way debates work is that you make a point, they make a point, one points better than another and everyone either agrees. Or doesn't. Just announcing that you know it all, anyone who's any good agrees with you, and anyone who disagrees with you is "trash" isn't just a tad toxic. It undermines your credibility.

There are things you can't have two different correct opinions about, these include for example:
-Undeath being unbalanced
-magplar and magdk being op
-necromancer and Warden being badly designed classes
-javalin being op

[snip]

Also I never said that people aren't entitled to have their own opinion, it just shouldn't be taken into consideration when it comes to balance.

[edited for bait]

Lephrel · April 2022

VarisVaris wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam you have failed to preserve class identity and have made the game as unenjoyable as it has ever been in PvP and the worst thing is that people have warned you about this over and over again but you've chosen to ignore those people.

I completely agree with your post, however the recent magdk and magplar changes are just the tip of the iceberg. Class identity and the eso combat system have been crumbling ever since we got a new combat team.
I know Wrobel made a couple of mistakes, but towards the end he was doing a really good job imo. Then the new combat team took over and since then there hasn't been a single balance update that I actually liked.
I know a lot of people would disagree with this, and I do understand where a lot of the changes are coming from. To me, however, the game just isn't nearly as enjoyable as it used to be.

deleted221205-002626 · April 2022

VarisVaris wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

On the opposite spectrum for brawlers we had magplar, a class ment to do the same task but with a completely different approach.
For a magdk offense and defense were the same thing and were strictly combined. For magplar offense and defense were strictly separated as you wouldn't get much heals while being offensive while your damage would crumble if played defensively.
This was balanced by giving magplar overtuned offensive capabilities which they wouldn't be able to use all the time but only in their short and distinct offensive windows.

Puncturing Sweep has healed for 40% of the damage done for ages, so I don't understand where you're coming from here.

The 40% heal was far from being enough to counteract high incoming damage which allowed pushing a magplar back into playing defensively when they went offensive

I agree with this.. It is often enough but not always and there are times when pale order is still needed. So 40% isnt rediculous

The_Lex · April 2022

Lephrel wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam you have failed to preserve class identity and have made the game as unenjoyable as it has ever been in PvP and the worst thing is that people have warned you about this over and over again but you've chosen to ignore those people.

I completely agree with your post, however the recent magdk and magplar changes are just the tip of the iceberg. Class identity and the eso combat system have been crumbling ever since we got a new combat team.
I know Wrobel made a couple of mistakes, but towards the end he was doing a really good job imo. Then the new combat team took over and since then there hasn't been a single balance update that I actually liked.
I know a lot of people would disagree with this, and I do understand where a lot of the changes are coming from. To me, however, the game just isn't nearly as enjoyable as it used to be.

Agree with your assessment of Wrobel, et al vs current team.

TechMaybeHic · April 2022

Speaking from a Cyrodiil perspective

I have yet to see a bunch of templars to this day that are threats. Only the same ones that have always been there, and it's not many. Most still just wiff on jabs, or sit there actually trying to use Jesus beam when the HOTs already have you above execute outside of doing it while others beat on you. The only thing I notice is some turtling up more, and that seems to get NBs panties in a bunch.

I've seen more tanky DKs but still not many more that are a huge threat. They all trying that burst combo and just have free heals pouring in but generally the same as they been

Actually; I have seen a huge uptick in NBs ironically. It's Necro bombers and NB friends. And it's because they just proc crap.

So I think the identity issue is the other classes being limited to proc metas. Lord forbid class abilities be an option.

The_Lex · April 2022

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Speaking from a Cyrodiil perspective

I have yet to see a bunch of templars to this day that are threats. Only the same ones that have always been there, and it's not many. Most still just wiff on jabs, or sit there actually trying to use Jesus beam when the HOTs already have you above execute outside of doing it while others beat on you. The only thing I notice is some turtling up more, and that seems to get NBs panties in a bunch.

I've seen more tanky DKs but still not many more that are a huge threat. They all trying that burst combo and just have free heals pouring in but generally the same as they been

Actually; I have seen a huge uptick in NBs ironically. It's Necro bombers and NB friends. And it's because they just proc crap.

So I think the identity issue is the other classes being limited to proc metals. Lord forbid class abilities be an option

This. Lately, I’ve been seeing more tanky necro bombers than DKs or Plars that pose a serious threat. They’re out there to be sure, but not like you would think.

Fabi95 · April 2022

VarisVaris wrote: »

Also I never said that people aren't entitled to have their own opinion, it just shouldn't be taken into consideration when it comes to balance. [...]

So you would still deny these opinions. In the end it makes me realize that it's very good that ZOS does these decisions, because otherwise we would just get one-sided community changes - where then only the most popular classes like Nightblade and Sorcerer dominate everything. That wouldn't be fair as well, and it's always important to acknowledge one's own biases. It's important for a healthy foundation of honest discussing.

So be honest, what main class do you play that influences your opinion? I'm going to be upfront as a positive example: I'm a Templar main, and I have seen enough in 2000+ hours to make fairly good judgements myself. Plot twist: PvP isn't everything, and PvP should not hurt the experience of PvE players. The majority of the content is all PvE. Plus there is real class flaws. Where with one thing I do agree with you: The class identity of Templars has been washed away quite a lot.

VarisVaris wrote: »

There is no room for discussion here because either you agree or you are wrong.

This is assuming that you got this fully figured out, that you have data, video proofs, build comparisons, etc. that prove your point. Where is the evidence for this daring statement? To judge other people are "wrong"? Here is a real fact: The Templar feedback thread is the biggest of all classes - 90 pages compared to Sorcerer's 47 pages, Warden's 39 pages, etc.

This outlines major interest from the overall playerbase in pointing out improvements for the Templar class. Personally I pointed out in this and this notable flaws and imbalances. For example, it robs the Templar class identity when there is the Undaunted orb that does everything better than Spear Shards. The orb can be used by everyone, the shards only once. The orb has a shared cooldown with the shards, so it actually discourages using the Spear Shards - because in groups, the orb is therefore superior. And everyone has access to the orb. So where is the class identify for Templars? And why has this not been improved? It's quite wrong when the own class skill is worse than something that everyone has access to.

VarisVaris wrote: »

-Undeath being unbalanced

Is it really? It's one of the sole reasons left to still play as a Vampire character. After the Mist Form nerf, there is almost zero reason to play as a Vampire these days. Because where are the benefits for all this cost increase? Do you want Vampire players to have literally no benefit but them bearing increased ability cost? Plot twist: That will not work. People will cleanse their vampirism, and chances are that you then unhappy about other players having "too much sustain". Also, checkout what other people think on Reddit about this, just for the change of perspectives.

VarisVaris wrote: »

-magplar and magdk being op

That is subjective. Compared to all the on-going design flaws with the Templar class, I do even say it's still far from optimal yet - just check the Templar feedback thread and the well-compiled arguments and comparisons. If you want Templar to become worse again just due to PvP, then I say: Templar needs lots of quality improvements still due to PvE. And there it's actually a fact that the class needs it. Skills like "Radiant Aura" need a complete rework, so does "Healing Ritual". There is reasons as well where I encountered people in veteran trials wanting Sorcerers and such things. A Templar has to take huge risks by going in close, and such risks should be made worthwhile - there is something very wrong if a Sorcerer can achieve the same damage, but from range. A Templar has to take the hits, so healing potential is important. Sorcerers have two abilities that allow them great mobility instead (e.g. the infamous "Streak"). And this is still where class identity shows: Templar is the battle healer brawler, Sorcerer the ranged wizard with good mobility.

Plot twist: Templar is the counter to Dragonknights, according to Deltia'sGaming.

VarisVaris wrote: »

-necromancer and Warden being badly designed classes

Particularly with Warden it is problematic (Wardens being rather weaker than others) in PvP from what I have seen on Youtube. Deltia'sGaming on Youtube has great quality videos about the strengths and weaknesses. Where I'm pretty amazed how honest and truthful he is with his experiences and facts about the classes.

But where is Necromancer struggling in PvP? Since you focus much on PvP, I would argue if the overpowered Blast Bones-Vicious Death set meta stuff isn't too much there as well. From own tests I could see, that Blast Bones has especially the problem of it being borderline difficult to dodge or avoid. I tested it in my own ESO home with someone: I walked different distances and went behind obstacles, and released Blast Bones on different distances. The end result is, that Blast Bones occassionally rushes into the target in hyperlight-speed. Which is impossible to dodge or kill the skeleton in time - in fact, in my opinion the skeleton is abnormally tanky for such a small time window of 1 (!) second.

VarisVaris wrote: »

-javalin being op

No it's not, because it's still highly bad in PvE. Even in PvP it is still situational, so there I want to see your own proof where it's allegedly "op". Fact is for example, the higher resource cost alone makes it very difficult for Javelin to be used as a spammable. It doesn't do the greatest damage as well, where just the skill design itself shows it's not meant to be a spammable - it is truly a situational skill. Plus it also has limited range! And on top of that, where is its use in PvE? It's one of these skills where I think it needs to be completely redesigned, so that it has both a place in PvE and PvP. And not only in one of them.

Long story short, I think it's not very objective and fair to want to make a class worse just 1. because of PvP, and 2. just because you personally don't like it. Especially while you openly deny validity of other people's views. With this in mind, I'm suddenly very glad how ZOS has been doing things.

Flaaklypa · April 2022

why are you complaining about magdk and magplar? those are easy specs to kill.
the real issue is magcro and stamden, both are incredibly strong atm