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Alternative Change of Blood Frenzy

Hjolger
Hjolger
Soul Shriven
The change proposed with patch 7.3.2 reduces the possibilities of alternative gameplay in my opinion. There are too few of them to be viable right now so it's an impoverishment of the game. "Play the way you like." I like to play in a different way than the meta and have it be viable. So yes, it takes time to think about something and master it, it offers additional content without adding anything. For players who don't want to invest in mastering this specific skill, there are other vampire builds that work so making this skill useless for both pvp and pve is a mistake. I am convinced that more people will abandon this skill line than adopt it. People will pay 700 gold in Riften instead of 800 crowns. A poll could give the community's feedback.

Different change of blood frenzy:

- Same initial cost.

- While toggled on, the Health cost of this ability increases by 40% every second, up to a maximum of 50 stacks and you cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself. At full charge, it grants you 630 weapon and spell damage.
Simmering Frenzy (morph): While toggled on, the Health cost of this ability increases by 40% and Weapon and Spell Damage bonus increases by 15% every
second. You also cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself. At full charge, it grants you 660 weapon and spell damage.

Sated Fury (morph): While toggled on, the Health cost of this ability increases by 30% every second and you cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself.
When you toggle this ability off, Heals up to 25k OR = and >5 stacks=2500, = and >10 stacks=5000, = and >20 stacks=10000, = and >30 stacks=15000, = and
>40 stacks=20000, 50 stacks=25000. At full charge, it grants you 630 weapon and spell damage.*
OR At 20 stacks or more, when you take damage while below 15% Health in combat, toggle this ability off and you heal for 25000 Health. At full charge, it
grants you 630 weapon and spell damage.

* This option seems to be the most relevant since even at level three and without a reduction, the benefit is still slightly more important than the cost in health. Its benefit increases as the initial cost is reduced, making the Vampire Stage 4 and/or the jewelry cost reduction more attractive.

More choices -> more different gameplays -> more specific stuffs -> more equipments to collect -> less weariness -> more game time (and subs) = win-win for everyone.

I have a pve vamplar so my experience is limited and for the pvp content, the mist form is clearly the most advantageous skill for vampire build.

As the patches came and went, I had to rethink my build several times. I stopped playing with the true-sworn fury stuff (crit max cap) and had to change some CP with the rejuvenation nerf.

I hope that these ideas will avoid taking away a whole part of the gameplay that gratifies the diversity.
  • Kaelthorn_Nightbloom
    Kaelthorn_Nightbloom
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    I think ZOS needs to make 2 changes here

    1) increase the capped +damage

    ideally,

    129 x4 for Sated (+516 damage @ 20 seconds)
    129 x6 for Simmering (+774 damage @ 20 seconds)

    alternatively, 400/600 could work but anything lower is just not enough

    2) scale the reduction on incoming healing over 20 seconds, for example

    2 seconds, -10% incoming healing
    10 seconds, -50% incoming healing
    20 seconds, -100% incoming healing

    As a Mag Sorc battlegrounds healer, I would consider using the new Frenzy with these values. Otherwise there's no way.

    Edited by Kaelthorn_Nightbloom on February 16, 2022 6:50PM
    PC NA
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    I think ZOS needs to make 2 changes here

    1) increase the capped +damage

    ideally,

    129 x4 for Sated (+516 damage @ 20 seconds)
    129 x6 for Simmering (+774 damage @ 20 seconds)

    alternatively, 400/600 could work but anything lower is just not enough

    2) scale the reduction on incoming healing over 20 seconds, for example

    2 seconds, -10% incoming healing
    10 seconds, -50% incoming healing
    20 seconds, -100% incoming healing

    As a Mag Sorc battlegrounds healer, I would consider using the new Frenzy with these values. Otherwise there's no way.

    Think the 400/600 is the better way about it. That way Simmering Frenzy remains the damage option with a slow build up to ease off the insane damage it was able to put out (Maybe have it scale to that point by increasing the stacks so the cost is higher as well), and makes Sated Fury a little more worthy of a bar slot to go along with it's potentially high burst heal.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Valenor
    Valenor
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    This Frenzy new iteration feels at best underwhelming. It used to be a build defining skill turned into yet another generic, flavorless, unrewarding skill.
    While I can understand that it enabled too much power and was due some fine tuning, butchering it the way thrassians was is not the way forward. Having a cap is important but 300 or 400 is way too low.

    Bumping the damage of one morph up to 600 should prove enticing enough to warrant putting it in a setup and building around it.
    Having a more manageable morph with less of a risk will not gate new players from trying it out.

    If the changes go as planned in the patchnotes, this will yet be another nail in the vampire's coffin. /badumtss
  • Kaelthorn_Nightbloom
    Kaelthorn_Nightbloom
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    I can live with 400 Sated, 600 Simmering. That's similar to other sources of damage available today.

    Edited by Kaelthorn_Nightbloom on February 16, 2022 10:12PM
    PC NA
  • rymere83
    rymere83
    Where are the notes to read the changes? What are the actual changes? Is it just to this skill or the entire vamp line?
  • Hjolger
    Hjolger
    Soul Shriven
    The proposal that i made takes into account pve and pvp (bg and cyrodiil) and not a specific content.

    The values I calculated seem to be important enough to consider this skill as a risk and not as an overpowered source.

    Doubling the values currently proposed in the patch note without compensation would make vampirism almost mandatory in pvp. As already said, mist form and passives are already pretty powerful (strike from the shadow, undeath, unnatural movement not to mention the ultimate. 20 sec are enough to build up the stacks and to engage in bg and cyrodiil, we all know that. It's not long enough.

    So if we have a skill that costs only 3000 health (and with this value it does not take into account the reductions stage 3,4 or jewelry.) and gives 400/600, the risk is clearly too low. I want to continue to take a risk with this skill not to have a free boost. It's the same problem as now with some semblance of a counterpart regarding the 660 or 630 damage upon activation of the skill.

    With my method, you get 660 in 10 sec (simmering) or 5000 health (sated) for a cost of 3696 health by being in stage 4 and with 3 enchant reduction. You don't stack 660 with the skill and 552 with the 3 enchant ;).

    Being a vampire should force you to adopt a different gameplay and not pile it on already existing builds.
  • Hjolger
    Hjolger
    Soul Shriven
    rymere83 wrote: »
    Where are the notes to read the changes? What are the actual changes? Is it just to this skill or the entire vamp line?

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598203/pts-patch-notes-v7-3-2#latest
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    @Hjolger You seem to be approaching this balance issue in the right way, but determining numbers that work well is going to be very tough. For example, in PvP if Simmering is draining your health by 3k per second while also increasing your damage against the opponent by 3k per second then its effect is neutral. This would be pointless to slot (except for maybe ganking), so I think it at least needs to justify a bar slot that could otherwise be used for Camo Hunter or Inner Light. PvP "DPS" estimates are always dubious, but let's say hypothetically this meant Frenzy needed to increase your DPS against another player by 4k while draining your health by 3k per second. That seems about balanced, but swapping over to PVE we now remove battle spirit. Suddenly that 4k increase becomes 8k or more, a massive imbalance compared to non-vamp builds, and it's still only draining your health by 3k which is easy to manage when a tank is keeping everything off of you. I just don't see any number that can possibly balance both PVE and PVP for this skill.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 17, 2022 4:26PM
  • Hjolger
    Hjolger
    Soul Shriven
    @Hjolger You seem to be approaching this balance issue in the right way, but determining numbers that work well is going to be very tough. For example, in PvP if Simmering is draining your health by 3k per second while also increasing your damage against the opponent by 3k per second then its effect is neutral.

    I did some calculations for only a few hours, it's more indicative than absolute. It was a proposal for the devs to have an in-between. ^^

    Given the current skill and what is proposed in the patch, it seems to me to be a skill that is built over time where the reward is at the end, the benefits during remain just passable. The gain gets better and better with time but so does the risk.

  • Hjolger
    Hjolger
    Soul Shriven
    And it would be good for pvp where there is still too much stuff and skills that have immediate gains overpowered as the necro dark convergence/Vicious death/boneyard/colossus.
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