Unpopular opinion, Light attack weaving (the perennial bug)

Tannus15 · February 2022

Merforum wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

As a teenager I never drank beer because it tastes terrible, but lots of friends did and as adults they think it tastes good but NO it still tastes terrible they're just used to it (smoking and rap music is same thing)

So we should get rid of beer and rap music? Mate, lots of people genuinely like beer. I like some rap music. I also really like the way light attacks interact with skills in this game. It's way better than the way auto attack / tab target mmo's work like wow and I think it's awesome that you have a resource free method of attack that you can always fall back on and interrupt with your skills and abilities.

You are proposing to fundamentally change the way combat works in this game, which a bunch of people like, because you, personally, don't like it. I don't like coffee. I guess we should get rid of that too...

Way to miss the point, which is getting used to something makes your opinion on it extremely biased. And just because YOU like something that 90% of people don't or can't do is not enough reason to force everyone to be at a huge disadvantage for not doing it. Imagine thinking that changing something that less than 10% do is a FUNDAMENTAL change.

BTW I am crashing 2-4 times a day so all this stuff is Moot until they fix many problems.

If we're going to just make up percentages, 90% of people don't know or care about light attack weaving. Of the 10% who do know what is it, 9% understand it and can do it, while 1% complain about it constantly and think the game should be changed to suit them.

Aldoss · February 2022

Removing LA makes 0 sense and weaving is honestly what makes this game's combat so thrilling. Why hold a weapon at all if you're never going to use it?

I would be horribly bored by LAs getting replaced by an auto attack system or removed entirely.

James-Wayne · February 2022

CP5 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Light attack weaving is slow and buggy, nerf the damage of light attacks to bring that ceiling down and raise the floor for DPS that have lag during fights.

Bring the whole community to the same game.

You, realize many players who are on the lower side dps wise tend to only do light attacks, right?

I don't believe that. I believe most people spam skills over light attacks, it's how other MMOs work too.

Some data from ZoS on what is used would be great thou

Tannus15 · February 2022

James-Wayne wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Light attack weaving is slow and buggy, nerf the damage of light attacks to bring that ceiling down and raise the floor for DPS that have lag during fights.

Bring the whole community to the same game.

You, realize many players who are on the lower side dps wise tend to only do light attacks, right?

I don't believe that. I believe most people spam skills over light attacks, it's how other MMOs work too.

Some data from ZoS on what is used would be great thou

either they spam 1 skill over and over like snipe, or they are just heavy attacking with a lightning staff

colossalvoids · February 2022

James-Wayne wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Light attack weaving is slow and buggy, nerf the damage of light attacks to bring that ceiling down and raise the floor for DPS that have lag during fights.

Bring the whole community to the same game.

You, realize many players who are on the lower side dps wise tend to only do light attacks, right?

I don't believe that. I believe most people spam skills over light attacks, it's how other MMOs work too.

Some data from ZoS on what is used would be great thou

That's what commonly observed through years of play by us. Anyways la damage was increased dramatically in Summerset patch as a meant to help newer players that were using la spam as their primary source of damage, that's now they described that one and probably there's some data involved to make such a change.

Edit: Actually thinking about it this should be a TES thing people used to. Like Skyrim was intimate LA spam simulator for a ton of people so they're used to that kind of gameplay in elder scrolls. Has nothing to do with MMOs really.

Succuby · February 2022

What if there are people who do not like monkey game play, do not see any skill in pressing GODess chousen LA after skill, but can perfectly do it with no miss.

It is just stupid !

I like do heavy attacks, it is base mechanick till start why the hell i can not effectivly use it.

This patch gives 2 times more sustain to LA, but make nerf to best PVE HA sets.

All this game can give is press LA after skill on current moment - it have to be fun to some one ?

HA - heavy, hard hit attack.

LA light- low dps.

Now allis LA, game is for LA, where L- is not light.

Low.

And according to changes in CP system and any thinking part of the game - brains.

Low brains ! No real skill is needed to press skill + LA !

No fun in it !

merpins · February 2022

Many mechanics in games started as bugs but are now seen as mechanics, as endorsed by their devs. Without the weaving, the gameplay at a mid to late game level wouldn't be much different than any big mmo. It's rare that such a mechanic sans bug exists in a game, and rarer skill that it's accepted. Yeah, it's an unpopular opinion because the majority, not the vocal minority but the actual majority of likely 70+% of players, LIKE this mechanic.

I'd like them to have other ways to go about it, other playstyles, but other than heavy attack builds that don't do much in the LA department, or the even rarer light attack builds that mainly light attack without even weaving, I can't really think of much that they could do that could make more diverse playstyles. Light attack weaving is just so engrained into this game at this point, and if they got rid of it, many people would be upset at their sudden shift of opinion on the mechanic. It's been balanced around in-game, sets rely on this mechanic, skills rely on this mechanic. The only way we see this mechanic removed is a new game engine, plain and simple, and I'll be damned if they don't try hard to make it work in a new engine. But it seems like it was just a happy accident, so making it work and feel the same in a new engine might not be as easy as it seems like it would be.

Succuby · February 2022

When you say Wawing it sounds like you do some thing special.

All you do is press hard hitting skill by CD.

In ESO skills have no real CD, so you press it on it end its effect.

It is nothing special and skillfull at all.

The only difference is that a lot of games have cool casting chanaled abilitys like as example HA of lightning stuff, TESO have not.

It had HA before but its damage is to much nerfed now, so even this is not an option.

And a lot of players say about end game - a lot of players dohard content, vDLC hms on 160+ (now on 320+?)

The same for trials HM.

This game punish not for your mistakes on trifectas - but "some one do not die", so i can not say all is about even your skill in this game.

And what do you name "high end content" ?

You can easely pay carry run of anything, but mist expensive is housing.

So on logick like this the most hard and more cost content is housing and nothing else.

So what doplayers need for housing ? Do light attacks ?

Lapin_Logic · February 2022

renne wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

why are we torturing ourselves to make a Beta Test Bug feel comfortable in 2022 despite the roulette wheel of "Will my skill actually fire at my target this fight" with the answer generally being "No" if you are playing with any amount of ping on your alt server account (EU/NA)

On no, not your "alt server account".

Cute. Try playing on any server in Australia. And yet we still manage to do it.

When you are used to driving a Ferrari and then you suddenly have to drive a Holden it's more jarring than having 2 Holdens.

But for the 90th time of people hinting at it, This is *Not* a "Do I like/am I good at Light weaving thread", it is a "Can they be coded properly/ work reliably *Again*" thread.

I can weave just fine and have been for years, but each patch *Feels* worse, also some people physically can't weave, so maybe the devs want to look into accessibility tools for edge cases *if it were properly coded* 😉 kapische?

Lapin_Logic · February 2022

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Honestly I believe when you press a skill there should be an option to automatically LA in the same GCD. No more weaving, the game just does it for you whenever you press 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5. Press 1 and you get your skill and an automatic light attack right behind it. You could still manually do it if you want, but it shouldn't be necessary.

Would solve a lot of problems. For example, the vet DLC dungeon I landed in the other day where as the HEALER I was doing 60% of the damage with just blockade, boneyard, and heavy attacks. If LAs were automatic it would make the acid spray spammers hit at least 15k which would be painful but passable. 9 out of 10 failed PUGs I experience are because we don't have the DPS to do the dungeon.

It isn't their fault though. The game doesn't really teach you how to weave or even that you need to. Making it automatic would fix that too.

I can hit really high DPS but I really hate that weaving is a thing I have to do. Would make combat more enjoyable to not have it in the game.

Auto-Attack was the system used in alpha stage, when the game was more or less a WoW Clone when it came to combat.
To change that, they changed the auto-attack from automatically attacking into a button press.
This is the reason why it has its own cd, they didn't integrate it into the ability system. They just changed it from automatically attacking into a button press, never thinking about the consequences this might have.
players that wanted to max out their damage realized that those light attacks were not on the same cd as other abilities, thus weaving was born.

Yeah, now we have SnB totally not broken empowered Crushing weapon-LightWeave-Ani cancelled Bash-Spammable Gank builds, It's what happens when structure is put on the back burner while we ride the rocket of mandatory new content crunch time. 🙁

Lapin_Logic · February 2022

Foto1 wrote: »

prove it's a bug

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

Foto1 · February 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

prove it's a bug

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

There must have been some records. Show them

Foto1 · February 2022

Merforum wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

As a teenager I never drank beer because it tastes terrible, but lots of friends did and as adults they think it tastes good but NO it still tastes terrible they're just used to it (smoking and rap music is same thing)

So we should get rid of beer and rap music? Mate, lots of people genuinely like beer. I like some rap music. I also really like the way light attacks interact with skills in this game. It's way better than the way auto attack / tab target mmo's work like wow and I think it's awesome that you have a resource free method of attack that you can always fall back on and interrupt with your skills and abilities.

You are proposing to fundamentally change the way combat works in this game, which a bunch of people like, because you, personally, don't like it. I don't like coffee. I guess we should get rid of that too...

Way to miss the point, which is getting used to something makes your opinion on it extremely biased. And just because YOU like something that 90% of people don't or can't do is not enough reason to force everyone to be at a huge disadvantage for not doing it. Imagine thinking that changing something that less than 10% do is a FUNDAMENTAL change.

BTW I am crashing 2-4 times a day so all this stuff is Moot until they fix many problems.

how do you know it's 90%? did you do the survey? and it seems to me that 90% like weaving. Why is my opinion worse than yours?

Succuby · February 2022

It is uncomfortable to start with ! It is bad game design !

Look: we make a glych that other games use automatically - here you must press 1 more button for that, now it is our GODess like cool thing.

People are proud that after skill (after LA press skill trully) they press mouse !

Lets proud of ourselfs how cool it is !

All other mechaniks like as example HA - heavy !! attack that in its name already showsthatmust hit hard - not really needed.

Skills -no need in it

Some skills DO NOT WORK for years.

But who needs skills when you can ... light attacking.

More light attacks to god of light attacks, becouse some thing a bot of 10 lines of code can do us name here "skilled play", so low real level of gamers here is !

So - if you do not do light attacking - you just play bad.

Play some thingelse or different way ? - better look how i can - light attacking.

Can not do anything else, any skilled player get bored on 4 days of play and leave, so no realcompetition in it.

And players who wrigt truth how way really is are banned fora lotof times (me about already 4 accounts ?).

Because who cares ! You can Light attacking !

Low skill need for that, but skills do not work so - get what you get.

Light attacks. God saves light attacks.

And ido not even care if this trash can be avoided !

Now it can not ! So play and eat trash like all players in game !

Some of players like it, but some do not.

But who cares !

colossalvoids · February 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

prove it's a bug

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

"Back in my iron age" isn't a proof. Also if you're claiming being here for awhile you probably should have known it was discussed on esosummit and eso live events and the very maximum thing said was roughly "we didn't expected it but liked the end result" talk about fluidity etc. If some portion of population called it a bug it doesn't make it one because some opinions.

Succuby · February 2022

A lot of players play the game, they have no time to discuss "how is better for them do light attacking" !

Because for some reason players who "like light attacking so much" - have to much time to do anything other than play !

And other players comes only when they seethe real trash coming !

WuffyCerulei · February 2022

I get people’s arguments that light attack weaving can be clunky (I’m looking at you, bow light attacks), that a perfect rotation with perfect light attacks is going to pull significantly higher than one with a lower LA ratio. But does having a handful of people in the expansive ESO community pulling 120k dps because they have the absolute most perfect LA ratio and rotation really worth nerfing light attack weaving? “Bring the ceiling down” but 98% of the playerbase isn’t going for Godslayer/Planesbreaker/etc. Perfect weaving isn’t needed to play the game. Heck, I miss light attacks a lot in trials and dungeons because of a myriad of reasons. Light attacks don’t make only make a good dps. Familiarity of the class/build, sets, CP (debatable as CP=/=skill), and most importantly, a well-executed rotation does.

Succuby · February 2022

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I get people’s arguments that light attack weaving can be clunky (I’m looking at you, bow light attacks), that a perfect rotation with perfect light attacks is going to pull significantly higher than one with a lower LA ratio. But does having a handful of people in the expansive ESO community pulling 120k dps because they have the absolute most perfect LA ratio and rotation really worth nerfing light attack weaving? “Bring the ceiling down” but 98% of the playerbase isn’t going for Godslayer/Planesbreaker/etc. Perfect weaving isn’t needed to play the game. Heck, I miss light attacks a lot in trials and dungeons because of a myriad of reasons. Light attacks don’t make only make a good dps. Familiarity of the class/build, sets, CP (debatable as CP=/=skill), and most importantly, a well-executed rotation does.

What people want and will do must not even care other players.

I can do rotation on LA with no miss but game fills like i play some trash that only need press skill after i click mouse.

Now i even have no other option !

So game only give me option do LA+Skill.

Where is other options game had start from 2016 year ???

You nerf it ok, now you say about not all players need to do trifecta bla bla bla.

But you nerf all other play style to 68 k dps, and now you say that not a lot of players are interesting in hard content ... .

Not a lot of players are interested in trash button spamming for thousand hours whyle all the group do not die as example !

No magick or real skill in it !

No fun to press LA than skill for 10k hours !

To play such long on LA is a real evidence that you have no brain.

Monkey can do - bot of 10 lines of code can do.

Why the hell players need to do such brainless thing for a lot of times ?

It is no fun, it needs no real skill.

It just waste peoples time.

Light Attacks gods like Alcast die in any possible situation and do normal dunguans solo - it is named "cool stuff".

But real skill is not about kill boss for 10 seconds whyle it has no time todo anything !

The lowest skilled players in other games do it ! Because they can not do other way !

I do the same in some games, becouse some times i have not gear good enough to do other way, so i need to farm it.

In TESO this count as top rate players !

Peoples who can not do nothing else !

Glass cannons !

To be glads cannon in teso is a thing to be proud - is not it a shame ?

CP5 · February 2022

James-Wayne wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Light attack weaving is slow and buggy, nerf the damage of light attacks to bring that ceiling down and raise the floor for DPS that have lag during fights.

Bring the whole community to the same game.

You, realize many players who are on the lower side dps wise tend to only do light attacks, right?

I don't believe that. I believe most people spam skills over light attacks, it's how other MMOs work too.

Some data from ZoS on what is used would be great thou

When I run pugs, the vast majority of the dps I see do 1 of 3 things. Heavy attacks only, light attacks only, or spamming one skill. If someone uses more than one skill or uses any buff skill, they're literally top 10% of the random queue.

Lapin_Logic · February 2022

Foto1 wrote: »

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

The Patch notes forum only goes back to update 12 "One Tamriel".

So No, they no longer exist in a form that would carry any weight, plus they don’t detail "bugs we added or left in" in the patch notes, Also there are 12 trillion pages with the word "Bug" or "natch Potes.

But let me put it another way, if in Street Fighter 2 someone discovered you could heavy kick with Ryu at the same time as launching a Fireball if you pressed (insert button mash here) but your animation clipped and it upped your damage everyone would call it a Bug, in ESO the community just said "I love this cheat, it allows me to kill x in PVE and those who don’t know in PVP".
Much like certain combinations of Proc sets that break functionality *cough* Flameblossom-Elfbane *cough* Some players would love to keep these around for their advantage.

Lapin_Logic · February 2022

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

prove it's a bug

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

"Back in my iron age" isn't a proof. Also if you're claiming being here for awhile you probably should have known it was discussed on esosummit and eso live events and the very maximum thing said was roughly "we didn't expected it but liked the end result" talk about fluidity etc. If some portion of population called it a bug it doesn't make it one because some opinions.

If your Parachute fails to deploy, it's a Feature not a Bug, Gotcha, I wonder if you would just enjoy That emergent gameplay though?

Merforum · February 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

prove it's a bug

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

"Back in my iron age" isn't a proof. Also if you're claiming being here for awhile you probably should have known it was discussed on esosummit and eso live events and the very maximum thing said was roughly "we didn't expected it but liked the end result" talk about fluidity etc. If some portion of population called it a bug it doesn't make it one because some opinions.

If your Parachute fails to deploy, it's a Feature not a Bug, Gotcha, I wonder if you would just enjoy That emergent gameplay though?

I find the fact that ZOS will NOT come out and specifically ANNOUNCE "LA animation canceling is a fundamental part of the game" and even better they also said "here is how you do it", with an in-game tutorial or out of game video, as proof that they probably don't really like it. I think they know it is a terrible thing but are just afraid of the backlash from the very tiny but super loud minority of people. They seem to be looking for a way to get rid of it without the blowback.

From the recent dev NOTE - "This set was originally intended to make Damage over Time effects and potent debuffs easier to manage and allow for focus on different actions (like being able to actually spam your "spammable")"
It seems like they want to make dots/buffs/debuffs less micromanagey and make spammables more used/powerful. Templar is a perfect example of a class with a good spammable that doesn't require LA weaving to make it powerful. If they make most spammables just as powerful, and dots/buffs/debuffs longer duration, they can phase out LA AC, which would be very smart.

BTW very interesting that when you say only a tiny minority of people use LA AC shouldn't get such an advantage over mnajority who can't or won't use it, people say no it is majority like it and are using it. But when you say why doesn't ZOS Teach this fundamental part of game, it is only a few people who need to know how to do it and "for everywhere else (outside of say, pvp) it is a skill that is entirely unnecessary". Funny how that works.

Edited for clarity.

CP5 · February 2022

Or, more to the point, that they don't want to push it onto players who have no interest or need to know about it. As I said before, 10-15% bonus damage on high-end builds for doing this, but for everywhere else (outside of say, pvp) it is a skill that is entirely unnecessary, sort of like how, while you'll do a lot more damage using multiple dots in a rotation, for standard content like overland it is also unnecessary.

colossalvoids · February 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

prove it's a bug

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

"Back in my iron age" isn't a proof. Also if you're claiming being here for awhile you probably should have known it was discussed on esosummit and eso live events and the very maximum thing said was roughly "we didn't expected it but liked the end result" talk about fluidity etc. If some portion of population called it a bug it doesn't make it one because some opinions.

If your Parachute fails to deploy, it's a Feature not a Bug, Gotcha, I wonder if you would just enjoy That emergent gameplay though?

Glad to know that weaving can cause character or irl death, would be more informed next time! Seriously though those anecdotes aren't helping in getting your point around in a slightest.

Tannus15 · February 2022

Merforum wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

prove it's a bug

If you had been around since Beta or Launch then you wouldn't ask.

"Back in my iron age" isn't a proof. Also if you're claiming being here for awhile you probably should have known it was discussed on esosummit and eso live events and the very maximum thing said was roughly "we didn't expected it but liked the end result" talk about fluidity etc. If some portion of population called it a bug it doesn't make it one because some opinions.

If your Parachute fails to deploy, it's a Feature not a Bug, Gotcha, I wonder if you would just enjoy That emergent gameplay though?

I find the fact the ZOS will NOT come out and specifically say LA weaving is a fundamental part of the game and here is how you do it, with an in-game tutorial or out of game video, as proof that they probably don't really like it. I think they know it is a terrible thing but are just afraid of the backlash from the very tiny but super loud minority of people. They seem to be looking for a way to get rid of it without the blowback.

From the recent dev NOTE - "This set was originally intended to make Damage over Time effects and potent debuffs easier to manage and allow for focus on different actions (like being able to actually spam your "spammable")"
It seems like they want to make dots/buffs/debuffs less micromanagey and make spammables more used/powerful. Templar is a perfect example of a class with a good spammable that doesn't require LA weaving to make it powerful. If they make most spammables just as powerful, and dots/buffs/debuffs longer duration, they can phase out LA AC, which would be very smart.

BTW very interesting that when you say only a tiny minority of people use LA AC shouldn't get such an advantage over mnajority who can't or won't use it, people say no it is majority like it and are using it. But when you say why doesn't ZOS Teach this fundamental part of game, it is only a few people who need to know how to do it and "for everywhere else (outside of say, pvp) it is a skill that is entirely unnecessary". Funny how that works.

ESO has almost no tutorials on how anything works. It's literally "block, interrupt, heavy attack, light attack, ok you're good to go"
There is no "here is how taunt works" but i'm pretty sure we want to keep tanks in the game.

Troodon80 · February 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

There is no "here is how taunt works" but i'm pretty sure we want to keep tanks in the game.

No. It's not in the tutorials, therefore tanks are a bug and should be removed from the game. Same with healers. This would also 100% fix server performance and PvP. ZOS has said time and time again that people can play the way they want and ZOS has never once said that tanks or healers are integral to the game, so this trinity that the playerbase insists on keeping should just be removed. After all, 90% of the players are DDs and the majority is right, right?

Sarcasm. I main a tank, please don't delete me. I'll pipe down and go back to my corner and be good, I promise.

ZOS_GregoryV · February 2022

Greetings all!

After reviewing the thread, we have decided to close it for Flaming, as well as Trolling and Baiting. Both of which are violations of the Community Rules, and are stated as follows:

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