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lighting heavy attack builds should get nerf - NOW
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Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭
I think Ive seen that one before! I remember the outfit. And the commentary
I couldn't figure out if you were just getting really into character or... Anyway, full health, sithis, 1pc warden yeah that'll get you up there on AC. I don't use sithis simply because i find blocking is just too good, but maybe I'm behind the times and shd join the dark side. I was surprised by the defending staffs on both bars though. Don't you find yourself seriously short on pen, even with caltrops? And no entropy etc for might of the guild?Heavy attack build lacks burst. Sorc has curse + endless fury. Sure you trade some heavy attack DPS for that, but in the end it's easier to kill with it most of the time.
And that was the conc I came to. A pure heavy attack build just didn't quite feel like it had what it took, it needed something else, at least against a good player. Obv it can put a lot of pressure on if someone's willing to stand in your blockade, but just lacked that bit of burst to finish them. Well that and the wind up was a pain in open world skirmishing. Things may have improved but I found that - even thought the game seemed to have me perma stuck me in combat - I still couldnt activate uu/ui until on a player after that nerf they put in.
I might try it on me sorc at some pt. Haven't played ihim in ages. Switched dk over to be more of a brawler type but still got the gear in a chest. Somewhere...
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divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't use sithis simply because i find blocking is just too good, but maybe I'm behind the times and shd join the dark side.
It's not the set you can put on every char, but if there is a build that profits from it most - it's heavy attack. You can't block during heavy anyway.Don't you find yourself seriously short on pen, even with caltrops?
It's not the most damaging heavy attack DK build. But it's very fast (x3 swift, major minor exp) and sustained and tough, so you pressure opponents to death.
Also, when you have all the buffs alighned and offbalance procs inside barrage, it still melts rocks.
Edit1: truth be told, I'd try charged maelstrom bar tho. Guaranteed off-balance sounds SWEET.And no entropy etc for might of the guild?
I use big fat magelight for might of the guild. No offensive stats whatsoever, and you need to target that dot. It's easier with magelight, and it makes you very, very annoying for NBs.Edited by divnyi on January 13, 2022 5:47PM1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
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I think Ive seen that one before! I remember the outfit. And the commentary I couldn't figure out if you were just getting really into character or... Anyway, full health, sithis, 1pc warden yeah that'll get you up there on AC. I don't use sithis simply because i find blocking is just too good, but maybe I'm behind the times and shd join the dark side. I was surprised by the defending staffs on both bars though. Don't you find yourself seriously short on pen, even with caltrops? And no entropy etc for might of the guild?Heavy attack build lacks burst. Sorc has curse + endless fury. Sure you trade some heavy attack DPS for that, but in the end it's easier to kill with it most of the time.
I might try it on me sorc at some pt. Haven't played ihim in ages. Switched dk over to be more of a brawler type but still got the gear in a chest. Somewhere...
Sorc works better for me, but gets nowhere near the numbers compared to the OP, the entire concept falls apart without the DK 50% heavy attack buff.
On the plus side, the game is buggy and you are likey to get stuck in a lightning heavy if you want to or not, and the build is fairly lag proof. The downside, you character is helpless outside of a group and dies easily. It is less effective than a straight bomber build using DC or Plaguebreak and Vicious Death. The two are builds are roughly comparable in terms of survivability and are only effective in specific cirmumstances.Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »NordSwordnBoard wrote: »I'd say if you block during the entire channel, you stun the attacker. However lightning staff attacks are getting locked in the animation right now, which would be disastrous.
You are not locked in animation. Heavy attacks are cancellable into block or bar switch at any point. You can even release the button and click some skill.
You must have really good latency....Those who don't get locked in animation with resto and lightning attacks all of the time. There is even a thread about it.Einher2137 wrote: »How can i counter this thing when i can't even dodge roll this? Stun in blockade and GG
BTW, some guy standing there channeling a heavy attack, easy target for your teammates.
Unless it's a sorc that can easily set down some mines and then streak away anytime someone gets close.
Once you make it a Sorc why bother? The Sauce is the DK 50% heavy attack buff and 100% penetration from Corrosive (the last tick of the heavy attack is direct damage), and that is the one generating the numbers and the hate.
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axi✭✭✭✭✭Einher2137 wrote: »Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.
Wrong , i was petrified and then blockade was cast, i was dodge rolling out and i took 20k damage. Any tips how to counter this?
Blockheal, sprint out to LoS. Once you lose off-balance, it's on CD, so it's fairly safe to get another try at killing that player.
I agree that heavy attack is a bit OP now. -20% damage boost on sets would fix them into fair zone.
If You nerf the sets You nerf them for all weapons. The issue exists only because lightning and resto staves are proccing the sets on every tick. Remove that and all weapons are balanced and currently overperforming heavy attacks builds recive a nerf without the need to touch the sets. I would say at that point those sets could even recive a buff.Edited by axi on January 17, 2022 3:35AM0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I played it on my Necro and Sorc this weekend, undaunted infiltrator/unweaver/maelstrom lightning and maw of inferno or Balorghs. It worked resonably ok, especially in a group, but lacked solo killing power unless I got really lucky with unskilled targets. My critical hit heavies were in line with spammables like Dizzy, whips, surprise attack, sometimes higher sometimes lower. ~-6-10K.
Summary for me, the HA build worked extremely well in lag. It worked so well in high lag, I may add it to armory to use during peak hours. It would work when skills just would not go off reliably. In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
While doing all this I got one-shot by a DK firestaff heavy attack for 28K. Mad props to that guy. No way I was getting anywhere close to that number on a necro/sorc.
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MentalxHammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭The fact that players can essentially hold 1 button and deal 20k damage with one heavy attack is absurd and diminishes the integrity of PvP in this game.2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MentalxHammer wrote: »The fact that players can essentially hold 1 button and deal 20k damage with one heavy attack is absurd and diminishes the integrity of PvP in this game.
That seems like bit of hyperbole.
Like any other combo, you have to cast you mag skill, your stam skill, wall of elements, and get a source of empower. So at least 3 button presses to start, and at least two subsequently. I'm hitting just as many buttons on my necro heavy attack build as I am with my harmony build.
You don't hold one button, and if you did? How is that different from hitting any other button? There aren't that many combat buttons in this game. It's not like we are playing the piano or something.8 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MentalxHammer wrote: »The fact that players can essentially hold 1 button and deal 20k damage with one heavy attack is absurd and diminishes the integrity of PvP in this game.
Why? It takes what, ~2 seconds for a heavy attack to complete? Are you saying that anyone that can dish out 20K damage in 2 seconds diminishes the integrity of the game? Whats next, 3 buttons, 4 buttons? No offence, but I have a pretty basic build and only a few skills on my bar, but pretty sure I can dish out 20K damage in 2 GCD's easily. Considering most folks are running around with 30K+ health lately, and complaining about being "one-shot", a 20K heavy attack seems pretty weak in comparison.
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katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MentalxHammer wrote: »The fact that players can essentially hold 1 button and deal 20k damage with one heavy attack is absurd and diminishes the integrity of PvP in this game.
Why? It takes what, ~2 seconds for a heavy attack to complete? Are you saying that anyone that can dish out 20K damage in 2 seconds diminishes the integrity of the game? Whats next, 3 buttons, 4 buttons? No offence, but I have a pretty basic build and only a few skills on my bar, but pretty sure I can dish out 20K damage in 2 GCD's easily. Considering most folks are running around with 30K+ health lately, and complaining about being "one-shot", a 20K heavy attack seems pretty weak in comparison.
Ya, I can more damage, to more players, faster and with fewer key strokes with other builds.
The entire thread is misdirection and a bit of misinformation. The ONLY thing that enables these really big heavy attacks is the DK 50% heavy attack buff. Without it, heavy attack builds are at or below par with other builds.
And the one shot heavy builds are using fire staff, not lightning staff.
These builds have been around literally for years. No big deal.2 -
malistorr✭✭✭✭I was a mag sorc glass cannon with a lightning staff using Wall of Elements on back bar with Maelstrom staff infused shock glyph and using Undaunted Infiltrator and Noble Duelist Silks so I had basically the hardest hitting heavy attach you could possibly do with lightning staff in PVP and I doubt I was hitting for more than 2-4K damage per tick of the HA. I couldn't get close enough to enemies for them to be in the wall of elements to get that buff to my HA and I couldn't get close enough for my Noble Duelist Silks 5th-piece buff to proc either. I even tried using Torug's Pact and Heartland Conqueror and couldn't do very high damage. I forget what the exact numbers were but it wasn't high enough to even make it viable in PVP. My damage on each tick of the lightning staff heavy attack literally felt artificially capped in PVP, as it was a small fraction of what I could do in PVE. Nevermind the current bugs to staff heavy attacks that basically lock you into the full 4-tick attack even if you try to stop it and the problems with continuing attacks unless you let go of the button, target, and hold the button again.
The only time I had any success using a lightning staff heavy attack in PVP was a situation where I had to be part of zerg in the back protected by lots of other players. I'd keep my heavy attack up constantly and could help kill players as more of a support role. Any time I went close to enemies I was dead almost instantly and it always took several seconds to kill anyone. I think some commenters above are right and it's DKs using fire staff against vampires that have any chance of doing big damage with a staff.Edited by malistorr on January 26, 2022 10:52PM2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭
Saying that only DKs run heavy attack setup because of their 50% dmg bonus is kinda lie. Different classes are also using it very effectively especially sorcs. What enables said build is not amount of percentage buffs but the fact proc sets used in that setups apply to every tick of lightning and resto staff heavy attack making them 4 times stronger then they should be.MentalxHammer wrote: »The fact that players can essentially hold 1 button and deal 20k damage with one heavy attack is absurd and diminishes the integrity of PvP in this game.
Why? It takes what, ~2 seconds for a heavy attack to complete? Are you saying that anyone that can dish out 20K damage in 2 seconds diminishes the integrity of the game? Whats next, 3 buttons, 4 buttons? No offence, but I have a pretty basic build and only a few skills on my bar, but pretty sure I can dish out 20K damage in 2 GCD's easily. Considering most folks are running around with 30K+ health lately, and complaining about being "one-shot", a 20K heavy attack seems pretty weak in comparison.
Ya, I can more damage, to more players, faster and with fewer key strokes with other builds.
The entire thread is misdirection and a bit of misinformation. The ONLY thing that enables these really big heavy attacks is the DK 50% heavy attack buff. Without it, heavy attack builds are at or below par with other builds.
And the one shot heavy builds are using fire staff, not lightning staff.
These builds have been around literally for years. No big deal.Edited by axi on January 27, 2022 1:54AM0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
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Saying that only DKs run heavy attack setup because of their 50% dmg bonus is kinda lie. Different classes are also using it very effectively especially sorcs. What enables said build is not amount of percentage buffs but the fact proc sets used in that setups apply to every tick of lightning and resto staff heavy attack making them 4 times stronger then they should be.MentalxHammer wrote: »The fact that players can essentially hold 1 button and deal 20k damage with one heavy attack is absurd and diminishes the integrity of PvP in this game.
Why? It takes what, ~2 seconds for a heavy attack to complete? Are you saying that anyone that can dish out 20K damage in 2 seconds diminishes the integrity of the game? Whats next, 3 buttons, 4 buttons? No offence, but I have a pretty basic build and only a few skills on my bar, but pretty sure I can dish out 20K damage in 2 GCD's easily. Considering most folks are running around with 30K+ health lately, and complaining about being "one-shot", a 20K heavy attack seems pretty weak in comparison.
Ya, I can more damage, to more players, faster and with fewer key strokes with other builds.
The entire thread is misdirection and a bit of misinformation. The ONLY thing that enables these really big heavy attacks is the DK 50% heavy attack buff. Without it, heavy attack builds are at or below par with other builds.
And the one shot heavy builds are using fire staff, not lightning staff.
These builds have been around literally for years. No big deal.
Looking at from being the target of a heavy attack build, a sorc heavy attack build cannot kill me on his own. Using the build, can barely hold my own 1on1. It just doesn't do enough damage fast enough. It works when you are a parasite killing already engaged players in XvX, but it is weaker than my other alternative builds in XvX. To me that is the definition of "Meh, why nerf"
A DK heavy attack build can kill me, easily.
(One other practical note, I use a lightning staff for the 10% aoe buff on my necro, plus using it playing around with the heavy attack build. You can get locked into a heavy attack and unable to get out. That has gotten me killed, a lot.)Edited by katorga on January 27, 2022 4:24PM0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭
Saying that only DKs run heavy attack setup because of their 50% dmg bonus is kinda lie. Different classes are also using it very effectively especially sorcs. What enables said build is not amount of percentage buffs but the fact proc sets used in that setups apply to every tick of lightning and resto staff heavy attack making them 4 times stronger then they should be.MentalxHammer wrote: »The fact that players can essentially hold 1 button and deal 20k damage with one heavy attack is absurd and diminishes the integrity of PvP in this game.
Why? It takes what, ~2 seconds for a heavy attack to complete? Are you saying that anyone that can dish out 20K damage in 2 seconds diminishes the integrity of the game? Whats next, 3 buttons, 4 buttons? No offence, but I have a pretty basic build and only a few skills on my bar, but pretty sure I can dish out 20K damage in 2 GCD's easily. Considering most folks are running around with 30K+ health lately, and complaining about being "one-shot", a 20K heavy attack seems pretty weak in comparison.
Ya, I can more damage, to more players, faster and with fewer key strokes with other builds.
The entire thread is misdirection and a bit of misinformation. The ONLY thing that enables these really big heavy attacks is the DK 50% heavy attack buff. Without it, heavy attack builds are at or below par with other builds.
And the one shot heavy builds are using fire staff, not lightning staff.
These builds have been around literally for years. No big deal.
Looking at from being the target of a heavy attack build, a sorc heavy attack build cannot kill me on his own. Using the build, can barely hold my own 1on1. It just doesn't do enough damage fast enough. It works when you are a parasite killing already engaged players in XvX, but it is weaker than my other alternative builds in XvX. To me that is the definition of "Meh, why nerf"
A DK heavy attack build can kill me, easily.
(One other practical note, I use a lightning staff for the 10% aoe buff on my necro, plus using it playing around with the heavy attack build. You can get locked into a heavy attack and unable to get out. That has gotten me killed, a lot.)
What argumentation is that? "I cannot be killed by heavy attack sorc thus the setup is weak". Like seriously that argumentation brings nothing to discussion. Also sorcs are as effective as dks because yes they may have less overall dmg but they have way more tools to be constant pain in the butt on HA builds. If a dk heavy attack can kill You easily but sorcs can that doesnt make heavy attack sorc instantly useless in PvP.
One practical note. Nobody cares about that on heavy attack setups because all You do is heavy attacking. You wont get empower? Who cares that is still like 10k+ undodgable 36 meters range dmg that restores Your resources. People really seem to sleep on the fact that when heavy attacks setups can dish out less dmg then perfectly timed burst combos, most of the burst combos is easily to interrupt or avoid, consumes resources and You cannot repeat it constantly within 1-2 seconds. Heavy attacks are the opposite. It's not the dmg that is problematic, it's the dmg combined with everything else this setup provides.Edited by axi on February 1, 2022 8:09PM0 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Handling them one on one is fine for me. It does get annoying when I am otherwise engaged with someone else and it becomes an outnumbered scenario with undodgeable heavy attacks finding their way on me. It's like snipe but worse, because snipe can actually be dodged.
I'm fine with certain playstyle being effective at a low skill floor but I do agree that it needs counterplay. Being able to interrupt or dodge them would be enough imo.1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Handling them one on one is fine for me. It does get annoying when I am otherwise engaged with someone else and it becomes an outnumbered scenario with undodgeable heavy attacks finding their way on me. It's like snipe but worse, because snipe can actually be dodged.
I'm fine with certain playstyle being effective at a low skill floor but I do agree that it needs counterplay. Being able to interrupt or dodge them would be enough imo.
Each additional player is a 100% buff to damage, healing. You cannot balance individual skills against that. If one player gets me to 30% health and some random sorc rolls up and finishes me with mages wrath, that does not make the sorc OP. Outnumbered, enough unbuffed light attacks can kill you.
There is plenty of counterplay to lightning heavies. Block. You block a channel, and roll a projectile.
This is what I am talking about:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/596584/30-40k-heavy-attacks-are-tasty#latest
It is a DK thing. Other classes need not apply.
Edited by katorga on January 28, 2022 2:49PM1 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭You block a channel, and roll or block a projectile.
Fixed that for you.
I see nothing wrong with his suggestion - both with interrupt and dodge. Interrupt will make all heavy attack builds vulnerable to high-skilled players point-blank, which sounds fair.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
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Fair enough. ZOS specifically gave immunity to interrupt for many channels and cast time abilities because it made them unusable. But if you go that route, make it fair, EVERY channel and cast time ability can be interrupted including jabs, dizzy swing. No exceptions.
I'd definately trade nerfing a build that is exceptional only on a class I don't play in exchange being able to interrupt jabs and dizzy.
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divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
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Fair enough. ZOS specifically gave immunity to interrupt for many channels and cast time abilities because it made them unusable. But if you go that route, make it fair, EVERY channel and cast time ability can be interrupted including jabs, dizzy swing. No exceptions.
I'd definately trade nerfing a build that is exceptional only on a class I don't play in exchange being able to interrupt jabs and dizzy.
Melee channels were never interruptible.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
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Fair enough. ZOS specifically gave immunity to interrupt for many channels and cast time abilities because it made them unusable. But if you go that route, make it fair, EVERY channel and cast time ability can be interrupted including jabs, dizzy swing. No exceptions.
I'd definately trade nerfing a build that is exceptional only on a class I don't play in exchange being able to interrupt jabs and dizzy.
Melee channels were never interruptible.
Ahhhh come on.....lemme dream.
Any lightning heavies nerfed. Fire heavies buffed (or at least I think they will be).0
https://youtu.be/pIZAOJX6NIs