lighting heavy attack builds should get nerf - NOW

Einher2137

How can i counter this thing when i can't even dodge roll this? Stun in blockade and GG

divnyi

Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.

Amottica

Einher2137 wrote: »

How can i counter this thing when i can't even dodge roll this? Stun in blockade and GG

Blockade of storms stuns or just roots? If it stuns then break free. I had thought it just rooted which permits blocking the HA and dodge roll would put you out of the blockade.

I don't know as I am probably too new to understand these nuances.

Einher2137

divnyi wrote: »

Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.

Wrong , i was petrified and then blockade was cast, i was dodge rolling out and i took 20k damage. Any tips how to counter this?

jaws343

Einher2137 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.

Wrong , i was petrified and then blockade was cast, i was dodge rolling out and i took 20k damage. Any tips how to counter this?

Break free and block

Einher2137

jaws343 wrote: »

Einher2137 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.

Wrong , i was petrified and then blockade was cast, i was dodge rolling out and i took 20k damage. Any tips how to counter this?

Break free and block

When i break free and instant block in blockade i will be dead too because i am too slow to get off the blockade while blocking.

axi

divnyi wrote: »

Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.

Blockade is 18 meters long skill which combined with shock enchant applies off balance instantly and it will sit on enemy for 7 seconds even if he leaves blockade. That allows also to cast blockade after the stun because off balance is guaranteed anyway. After that it's just simple degen+heavy attack to get 160% dmg boost(dk armanents+empower+off balance). Even if someone leaves blockade which isnt always that easy considering how much stuff people throw on grounds in BGs these days, he'll still take a lot of dmg from heavy especially considering that it'll take some time to leave 18x12 meters AoE so atleast 2-3 ticks of lightng heavy are guaranteed before You break free and leave blockade.

axi

I agree. Heavy attacks setups in PvP are disgusting and way too overtuned when it comes to lightning and resto staff. We are talking about 15-20k range undodgable dmg from holding 1 button when preparation for it is also childishly easy. These setups require barely any skill to be very effective in certain type of PvP encounters.

ZoS should atleast change all sets that buff light and heavy attacks. Currently sets like vMA destro, undaunted infiiltrator or sergant are 4x stronger with lightning staff then lets say with flame staff because they apply to every tick of lightning heavy. On top of that it's extremly easy to get 110-160% heavy attack dmg buff and that buff applies to sets that buffs heavy attacks. Undaunted infiltrator for example have additional 1,6k dmg to heavy attacks on tooltip but in reality it can add like 15-20k dmg to heavy attack (before PvP calculations of course).

Janni

axi wrote: »

I agree. Heavy attacks setups in PvP are disgusting and way too overtuned when it comes to lightning and resto staff. We are talking about 15-20k range undodgable dmg from holding 1 button when preparation for it is also childishly easy. These setups require barely any skill to be very effective in certain type of PvP encounters.

ZoS should atleast change all sets that buff light and heavy attacks. Currently sets like vMA destro, undaunted infiiltrator or sergant are 4x stronger with lightning staff then lets say with flame staff because they apply to every tick of lightning heavy. On top of that it's extremly easy to get 110-160% heavy attack dmg buff and that buff applies to sets that buffs heavy attacks. Undaunted infiltrator for example have additional 1,6k dmg to heavy attacks on tooltip but in reality it can add like 15-20k dmg to heavy attack (before PvP calculations of course).

I def find heavy attacks to be way too strong right now. A couple of days ago I took an inferno staff heavy out of the blue during a large fight for something like 28k and I was NOT playing a squishy character!! What really gets me though is this issue lately with my skillbar locking up. When several channeled abilities target me at the same time my skillbar completely grays out and the only abilities I can use until it ends run and jump.... ma-a-a-a-aybe block? But who even knows if that registers with the server by that point, huh?

divnyi

Einher2137 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.

Wrong , i was petrified and then blockade was cast, i was dodge rolling out and i took 20k damage. Any tips how to counter this?

Blockheal, sprint out to LoS. Once you lose off-balance, it's on CD, so it's fairly safe to get another try at killing that player.

I agree that heavy attack is a bit OP now. -20% damage boost on sets would fix them into fair zone.

Kwoung

Einher2137 wrote: »

How can i counter this thing when i can't even dodge roll this? Stun in blockade and GG

There are lots of rotations on many different builds that will wreck you. However, to do them there needs to be a modicum of performance so the rotation actually fires off. Heavy attacks are one of the few things you can still count on actually working... most of the time. Fix performance, and all the other fun rotations come back and we can see posts about how class X wrecked me with Y so they need nerfed too!

Also, not everyone likes to, or even can mash buttons like mad, and heavy attacks keep it simple, which is awesome for a lot of players, for any number of valid reasons. Not everything in this game needs to revolve around the lightning reflexes and microsecond timings of a teenager.

BTW, some guy standing there channeling a heavy attack, easy target for your teammates.

WuffyCerulei

They just gotta make it dodgeable. No need to nerf something solely for pvp’s sake.

dinokstrunz

Posting this for a friend who doesn't have access to the forums:

Definitely agree with the OP. Heavy attack builds have been way too strong in PvP for quite some time now. They're especially an issue in battlegrounds where lots of the potential downsides of these builds are eliminated. My arguments and viewpoint written down below will use battlegrounds as the baseline for my opinions.
There are a few underlying issues with these builds that needs to be addressed in my opinion:

The lack of proper counterplay on the receiving end (aka the one getting heavy attacked).
The sheer power of heavy attack builds in correlation to how straightforward and “easy to play” they´re.
Inconsistency with how some heavy attack sets work.

The main issue with these builds is the sheer amount of power it brings, with very little effort put into it. The most effort these builds require is for the player to farm the gear itself, but after that, the build pretty much plays itself. On the average heavy attack build you´ll hit a player for lightning staff heavy attack ticks for anywhere between 5-9k A TICK. And a lightning heavy contains of 3-4 of these ticks.
For those of you that are unaware, heavy attacks from restoration staff and lightning staff goes through dodgeroll, which eliminates that as a counterplay option. So as a player on the receiving end you´ve 3 options:

Stand there and block: Which in most scenarios in a battleground is a delayed death sentence since you´ll quickly be overwhelmed by the rest of the enemy team.
Outheal the incoming damage: If it's only the heavy attacker you face, it can in some scenarios be doable, but that's very very very rarely the case.
Line of sight: The only reliable counterplay.

Getting hit with damage values similar to the power that even some ultimates struggle to reach, with very limited counterplay is simply unacceptable from a balance point of view.

Heavy attack sets and the inconsistency between how they work
Currently in the game we´ve a few sets that boost the damage to light- and heavy attacks. Sergeant Mail, Nobel Duelist, Undaunted Unweaver and Undaunted Infiltrator and the maelstrom destruction staff. The last three are usually the most common ones used in most heavy attack builds.

Some time ago ZOS adjusted Sergeant Mail set to not apply to both heavy attacks when using dual-wield attacks. The reasoning was that it was simply too powerful when you properly build for it. For some reason they decided to ignore the fact that restoration- and lightning heavy attacks still worked the same with sets light noble duelist and both undaunted sets.

The potential solutions I see in order to fix the issue with these builds in PvP are the following:
Make sets that boost the light- and heavy attack damage scale of your offensive stats, similar to how other “proc-sets” work. Majority of these heavy attack builds in PvP run very low in the spell- and weapon damage stats (they´ve other means to survive which isn´t exactly balanced either, but that's for another thread/topic). If they want to continue to reach these numbers they need to sacrifice something for it.

Make sets that boost light- and heavy attack damage only apply to the last tick of a fully charged heavy attack with restoration staff and lightning staff. This would be the same change that happened to Sergeant Mail set and would still make the builds usable in PvE scenarios, but without being the overtuned powerhouse they´re in PvP.

Make heavy attacks from restoration staff and lightning staff dodgeable. A change that wouldn´t affect PvE at all and would give people a chance for proper counter play in PvP.

divnyi

Make sets that boost the light- and heavy attack damage scale of your offensive stats

So basically delete heavy attack DK and leave heavy attack sorc as the only option 🥱

Make sets that boost light- and heavy attack damage only apply to the last tick of a fully charged heavy attack with restoration staff and lightning staff

You might as well delete those sets after that, nothing will change, nobody will use them after such a nerf.
PvE players use it too btw. Without buffing multi-ticks there is literally absolutely no point in running them.

Make heavy attacks from restoration staff and lightning staff dodgeable.

I guess this should be a thing.

Some time ago ZOS adjusted Sergeant Mail set to not apply to both heavy attacks when using dual-wield attacks. The reasoning was

Lmao they must hate that set. First they nerf lightning staff interaction, now this.
I wonder if that's because it's heavy.

BlossomDead

I don't know how it is for other classes, but for my magsorc I need to complete the heavy attack fully with no mid cancellation to get the full bonus, which means I am extremely vulnerable during the time and that if you interrupt my channelling my dmg output goes down significantly.

It feels like it is a subpar strategy most of the times and I very rarely see lightning staves in PvP.

Don't think it needs a nerf tbh. For fire staff you can dodge because it deals more dmg, for lightning staves you have the channel trade-off.

divnyi

@BlossomDead You can't interrupt heavy attack, except with stun, but you can interrupt anything with stun. And no, you don't need to finish heavy to do much damage, 2-3 ticks into some skill is sometimes more beneficial (if you don't need that mana).

Dorkener

Non sorc/NB melee build? Lava map? Just leave the BG. YEP.
Exercise / relax for 5 mins, requeue. Repeat as necessary. Best counterplay imo. YEP.

NordSwordnBoard

I'd say if you block during the entire channel, you stun the attacker. However lightning staff attacks are getting locked in the animation right now, which would be disastrous.

Larcomar

Run one, then see how it feels. They have a super long wind up - most involve UU, UI and a maelstrom staff, which take several gcd's to trigger thanks to the nerf last year. And they're not only super squishy, you basically have a big flashing line pointing back to you in case anyone's struggling to target you. Best of all, shock heavies are pretty borked right now and often don't go off or do . And keep going off....

Necrotech_Master

Amottica wrote: »

Einher2137 wrote: »

How can i counter this thing when i can't even dodge roll this? Stun in blockade and GG

Blockade of storms stuns or just roots? If it stuns then break free. I had thought it just rooted which permits blocking the HA and dodge roll would put you out of the blockade.

I don't know as I am probably too new to understand these nuances.

Wall of Fire deals additional damage to Burning enemies.

Wall of Frost costs more, but grants damage shields and immobilizes Chilled enemies.

Wall of Storms sets Concussed enemies Off Balance. (this is what OP was affected with)

(from the base skill, i think these translate into the morphs as well)


(for additional reference the morph changes)
blockade morph increases the area coverage and duration of the wall

unstable morph has burst dmg after the wall ends (ending includes if you recast it early)

divnyi

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I'd say if you block during the entire channel, you stun the attacker. However lightning staff attacks are getting locked in the animation right now, which would be disastrous.

You are not locked in animation. Heavy attacks are cancellable into block or bar switch at any point. You can even release the button and click some skill.

divnyi

Larcomar wrote: »

And they're not only super squishy

They are as squishy as you make them. Mine is 35k HP, 31k armor, x7 well-fitted, 5pc medium, x3 swift. Lacks strong heals, but very far from squishy.

Dem_kitkats1

divnyi wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I'd say if you block during the entire channel, you stun the attacker. However lightning staff attacks are getting locked in the animation right now, which would be disastrous.

You are not locked in animation. Heavy attacks are cancellable into block or bar switch at any point. You can even release the button and click some skill.

You must have really good latency....Those who don't get locked in animation with resto and lightning attacks all of the time. There is even a thread about it.

Kwoung wrote: »

Einher2137 wrote: »

How can i counter this thing when i can't even dodge roll this? Stun in blockade and GG

BTW, some guy standing there channeling a heavy attack, easy target for your teammates.

Unless it's a sorc that can easily set down some mines and then streak away anytime someone gets close.

xStaticx

Yeah, let's nerf all heavy attack sets because of the DK's skill molten armaments.

I always found it odd that a dragonknight, which is the master of fire, is also the master of the lightning heavy attack.

Molten armaments used to only work on fully-charged heavy attacks but was changed years ago to effect all ticks of a heavy. Just revert it back to a fully-charged heavy.

xDeusEJRx

Heavy attack builds are really ridiculous. I think they need to change sets that buff heavy attack to "Increases heavy attack damage against non players" that way it's still good in PVE and never sees light of day in PVP.
The fact you can't dodge a lightning or restoration staff heavy that can kill you for 20k over 5 ticks is absurd. And on top of that, the range on heavy attack channels with staves make it hard to try running away because you can just hold down the button and still nuke their health as they run.

Make heavy attack builds a PVE thing only please. Change it to "increase damage to non players" same as they did with inner rage skill change

axi

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

They just gotta make it dodgeable. No need to nerf something solely for pvp’s sake.

Certain adds in PvE also dodge roll attacks But more seriously dodgable heavy attacks from lightning and resto staff would be really stupid or atleast wierd.

katorga

jaws343 wrote: »

Einher2137 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Stun in blockade means you walked right into the trap and got stunned there, in the area where their heavy attacks are boosted by maelstrom destro and got off-balance too, increasing damage you take from heavys.

Wrong , i was petrified and then blockade was cast, i was dodge rolling out and i took 20k damage. Any tips how to counter this?

Break free and block

The game will break free for you. All you have to do is block. Otherwise sort of a weak build. It does one thing but weakens your other abilities badly enough that you need to hide an a group to survive. Sort of a rare bird. People see it, try it, realize how fast they die, and move on. The op will cause the cycle to repeat. The build has been in the game for at least five years, probably more.

But hey, I get massive vicious death procs all the time. 9K defilers and plaguebreaks constantly. I don't remember the last death recap with a lightning heavy build. Compared to all of the other things out there, it seems right in line.

fwiw, the secret sauce is the DK 50% buff to heavy attacks. Meh on anything else.

Kwoung

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I'd say if you block during the entire channel, you stun the attacker. However lightning staff attacks are getting locked in the animation right now, which would be disastrous.

You are not locked in animation. Heavy attacks are cancellable into block or bar switch at any point. You can even release the button and click some skill.

You must have really good latency....Those who don't get locked in animation with resto and lightning attacks all of the time. There is even a thread about it.

Kwoung wrote: »

Einher2137 wrote: »

How can i counter this thing when i can't even dodge roll this? Stun in blockade and GG

BTW, some guy standing there channeling a heavy attack, easy target for your teammates.

Unless it's a sorc that can easily set down some mines and then streak away anytime someone gets close.

I said while he is channeling, that was your window of opportunity, if you missed it, whose fault was that? Cyrodiil offers you many windows of opportunity to beat down your opponent, seize the moment because that is all you get... a moment.

divnyi

xStaticx wrote: »

Yeah, let's nerf all heavy attack sets because of the DK's skill molten armaments.

I always found it odd that a dragonknight, which is the master of fire, is also the master of the lightning heavy attack.

Molten armaments used to only work on fully-charged heavy attacks but was changed years ago to effect all ticks of a heavy. Just revert it back to a fully-charged heavy.

Arguably heavy attack DK is weaker than heavy attack sorc due to sorc having better burst and movement and defensive toolkit.

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

You must have really good latency...

I am. I play BGs mostly because I can't understand how ppl tolerate cyrodiil lag. Why even play when your character is unresponsive.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

for 20k over 5 ticks

Healing staff is 3 ticks/heavy, which is approx 2-3 gcd. So 5 ticks is like 4-5 gcd. It isn't that big if you put it into perspective, but makes neat death recap numbers cause it stacks.

I'd rather them increase damage of all other weapon heavy attacks to be at least comparable. Fire staff even has passive to increase heavy attack damage, but that damage is laughable compared to lightning staff. And why melee heavys are so tiny?

And with that, just flat nerf those sets in numbers. Like, -20% or -25% and it'll be fine.

Larcomar

divnyi wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

And they're not only super squishy

They are as squishy as you make them. Mine is 35k HP, 31k armor, x7 well-fitted, 5pc medium, x3 swift. Lacks strong heals, but very far from squishy.

Ofc you can. But then you trade off damage. Happy to be corrected but I'd be surprised if you're getting to those stats wearing two heavy attack sets + a maelstrom staff. I'm guessing you're running something more defensive in place?

Don't get me wrong, I think that makes eminent sense - that's where I went with mine - but then you're not going to get to the get to the numbers OP was posting. Like most things in the game, it's a tradeoff.

divnyi wrote: »

Arguably heavy attack DK is weaker than heavy attack sorc due to sorc having better burst and movement and defensive toolkit.

Which as you say loses you the what, +50 from molten armarments + ofc the corrosive pen factor. But yeah, does buy you a shed load of mobility/defense. What sort of damage are you getting off that though? Always run on my dk in the past.

My honest take on these builds is that (unless you're operating in a group) they were fantastic at potato peeling, but a lot less effective against someone who knew what they were doing. It sounds to me like OP wandered into his opponent's blockade and then.... stood there.

Bottom line, shock heavy builds can be good. But OP? Well, sure. If youve got low defenses, get stunned, don't bother to block etc they'll delete you. But then just about anything will if you do that nowadays. On this logic, we'd be nerfing everything.

divnyi

Larcomar wrote: »

I'd be surprised if you're getting to those stats wearing two heavy attack sets + a maelstrom staff. I'm guessing you're running something more defensive in place?

I guess you will

https://youtu.be/pIZAOJX6NIs

Larcomar wrote: »

What sort of damage are you getting off that though?

Heavy attack build lacks burst. Sorc has curse + endless fury. Sure you trade some heavy attack DPS for that, but in the end it's easier to kill with it most of the time.