Reflecting on My ESO Experience: The Tension Between Playing How You Want to Play or Need to Play

biminirwb17_ESO · January 2022

One of the hardest things to learn about Cyrodiil pvp is situational awareness, where you are likely to be attacked, where you are relatively safe, how many players are near you and what is their skill level.

One thing is true everyone who fights in pvp dies, the people who do not die much don't tend to fight in the open. I was chasing a record kill streak of over 100 kills, I stayed in the keep, snuck out the back when it was obvious the situation was hopeless and achieved the streak.

Other times I will jump off the walls and die multiple times just to stop the other faction from putting down siege. Staying alive is optional when dying means nothing if you can respawn close by.

Too many people worry about winning fights, there is so much more. Ninja repairing a door during a siege can be a win or lose play, so can placing or burning a forward camp.

Oh and always expect a NB to be lurking, they usually are

atherusmora · January 2022

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

One of the hardest things to learn about Cyrodiil pvp is situational awareness, where you are likely to be attacked, where you are relatively safe, how many players are near you and what is their skill level.

One thing is true everyone who fights in pvp dies, the people who do not die much don't tend to fight in the open. I was chasing a record kill streak of over 100 kills, I stayed in the keep, snuck out the back when it was obvious the situation was hopeless and achieved the streak.

Other times I will jump off the walls and die multiple times just to stop the other faction from putting down siege. Staying alive is optional when dying means nothing if you can respawn close by.

Too many people worry about winning fights, there is so much more. Ninja repairing a door during a siege can be a win or lose play, so can placing or burning a forward camp.

Oh and always expect a NB to be lurking, they usually are

Agreed! I solo play a lot in Cyro, and have recently found a steady group to do BGs with. Situational awareness is so key! It can be a bit of a learning curve. Keep that armor up at all times. Sneaky NBs will wreck your life if you aren’t careful.

I do agree with OP when it comes to “play how you want” I recently switched to no pets on my sorc to become more mathematically viable for PvP on a sorc. I miss my pets, but what I’ve lost in fantasy rp, I gained in survivability and power(?). I also embraced the dark gift of vampirism once again❤️, but I only use it in PvP build😩. Armory System has been a godsend on console. It’s bittersweet overall. I feel the mantra, “Play how you want” holds up in most cases, but barely. As has been said already, there is quite a difference between playing how you want from a fantasy role-playing perspective versus mathematical meta perspective(PvX).

There needs to be more balance between the two imo. Decisions that embrace the logic of the game lore should hold more currency than they currently do. Dual wielding on a mage to hit top DPS is contextually obscene and, really feels wrong to what I really “want” to do as a mage in a fantasy game.

Thraben · January 2022

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I remember when I first started playing deathmatch battlegrounds in ESO. I played a sorcerer with four pets. Playing with pets was something you’d never see many players doing. To be clear, it was a lackluster setup compared to other ways you might play sorcerer in battlegrounds. I didn’t care. I was playing the way I wanted to play. I never finished off anyone. I died a lot. I cost the team the game constantly. Eventually, I got better at playing the build. I didn’t die much. I did a lot more damage or healing than before. I even managed to secure a few finishing blows (without endless fury).

Even though I improved, many players still criticized the way I played because I was a serious limit to my team. If you are like me and believe in rational choice (sometimes), I make the assumption about BG players that we are rational. We enter battlegrounds wanting to win. No rational player enters BGs with the intention to lose. Or, in the famous words of Alyssa Edwards, “winning isn’t everything, but wanting to win is.”

All this said, I’m left wondering to myself whether I’m elitist or just rational about the game. I by no means want to tell people how to decorate their house or dress their character. For that reason, I don’t feel like an elitist. I do recognize that PvP is a math formula and puzzle, and we can come to a few answers that are righter than others.

How do we reconcile the rational and reasonable goal to win PvP, while also the fact that playing the way you want to play can often go against that rational goal?

That's the thing with those guys: They want to tell you how to play, but lack basic game knowledge themselves.

In High MMR Batlegrounds (and 4vs4 fights in general), a PetSorc group is probably the third or fourth best setup you can have and quite likely the best pure magicka setup.

AJones43865 · January 2022

[snip] Most of the people who say "I'm just looking for a good fight" seem to be the people helping their friends on an opposing faction and being called out for it. Or it's a NB who never comes out of cloak complaining that they didn't get their gank. Or it's people wanting to be powerful using melee weapons on a mag build or something similarly absurd.

I don't put much stock in the claims that people can't play how they want in ESO. I think the phrase is a deflection of what's really going on most of the time.

[edited for baiting]

jaws343 · January 2022

Play how you want means: Be a trader, run solo content, run group content, play only battelgrounds, pvp in cyrodil, be a thief, only kill world bosses, only do overland content, quest with groups, quest solo, spend thousands of hours fishing, or crafting, or just chatting with friends.

Play how you want does not mean: your build will be viable for all content.

People seem the conflate the two. The idea behind play how you want is that you can do anything in the game you wish to do. But that does not mean that any way you set yourself up will be viable. A great example is fishing. Play how you want means that you can spend as little or as much time as you want fishing. But even fishing still requires you to have the correct bait. You can't do any fishing without having the proper bait for where you intend to fish. So play as you want, but you still need to be properly geared for success.

Cypherus · January 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Play how you want means: Be a trader, run solo content, run group content, play only battelgrounds, pvp in cyrodil, be a thief, only kill world bosses, only do overland content, quest with groups, quest solo, spend thousands of hours fishing, or crafting, or just chatting with friends.

Play how you want does not mean: your build will be viable for all content.

People seem the conflate the two. The idea behind play how you want is that you can do anything in the game you wish to do. But that does not mean that any way you set yourself up will be viable. A great example is fishing. Play how you want means that you can spend as little or as much time as you want fishing. But even fishing still requires you to have the correct bait. You can't do any fishing without having the proper bait for where you intend to fish. So play as you want, but you still need to be properly geared for success.

I couldn't agree more!

Well, I must say that I do play how I want although it does have its consequences, for example PVP. But since I don't do PVP in any games nor do I play any games that are PVP only, I'm good.

I do enjoy ESO. I do my daily writs, search for Leads, I like scrying and digging and getting new furniture from it, doing overland content and so on.

I have a 2 characters just for gathering resources (just one wouldn't be able to hold all treasure and survey maps, lol.) I use sets that I find funny on them like the Mad Tinkerer set, still I do queue them for normal random dgs as dps since I will be gathering resources and waiting 20-30min isn't a problem a all---yes I have been kicked from Pugs, sometimes for lacking the "right" dps numbers or just for not keeping up; do I care? Nope, I couldn't care less, I just queue again, lol. I have another character build just to play the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild DLCs. His build is all about stealth/sneaking but he does have another build for normal random dgs, just Kinras and some other overland or dungeon set since I don't do PVP or Trials. With the addition of companions it's a lot easier to do overland content without having to change much on my healers or tanks.
I did trial just once with a guild that I was a part of. They were pretty laid back and fun. They were all about "today is trial/overland/dungeon day" just come with the character of your choice and let's have fun. We struggled a lot in Trials, sometimes never getting past the second boss or even first boss after an hour, lol. But it was fun.
The guilds I am in now asks you to list your current gear in order to signup for trials. So I don't even bother and I don't care at all. Like I said, I really don't care about metas or endgame content, I just want to have fun and play the way I want just like other people play the way they want and I respect them as long as they don't disrespect other players.

But I do check some builds on Youtube or some websites but all #1 builds require trial or pvp gear so I scroll down until there's a build with just overland and dgs sets but I also want fun sets to play with. My main is a magsorc. I don't use the Maelstrom Inferno staff as "recommended" or any trial gear. I happily use the Mother Sorrow, Medusa and Zaan sets. I don't mind people giving me advices but I do tell them beforehand that if it's about numbers or anything Cyrodil, Imperial City, or Trials related that I am not interested and life moves on.

Nezyr_Jezz · January 2022

The title should phrase:
Reflecting on how good am i and what are my expectations?

Answer:
Your not required to anything unless your not meeting the quotas of a group you are playing with. How you are going to get those depends on you and your playstyle. The most important factor is skill. And it comes down to skill in PVE and PVP alike. If you have a mediocre self made setup, and mediocre skills you will not win against a very good skilled player who runs meme build using worst sets. This game is skill dependant to a point where about 5-10% at most can meet "quotas" in both pvp and pve due to the lack of skill. Just get better [snip]

For more info on the subject i suggest:
[snip]

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

Supreme_Atromancer · January 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

But that does not mean that any way you set yourself up will be viable. A great example is fishing. Play how you want means that you can spend as little or as much time as you want fishing. But even fishing still requires you to have the correct bait. You can't do any fishing without having the proper bait for where you intend to fish. So play as you want, but you still need to be properly geared for success.

But what is it in the background that determines viability? That is the question. No one's actually arguing that any wacky combination of 5 different sets should be amazing, because its obvious that that person hasn't made an effort.

In your fishing example, there's a broad effort to have it make some sort of sense: certain baits work for certain water types. It feels reasonably logical. So to extend this example to the actual issue people have, imagine that casting Dizzy Swing or Rapid Manoeuvres at the water suddenly gave you 10x more fish. It would almost certainly become the "meta", but it would still be ridiculous and contrived. Maybe to address some abstract sense of balance, without thinking about what makes sense. People who want to feel like they're fishing aren't necessarily going to want to feel pressured into doing that, will probably feel disenfranchised from the system and seek less and less to engage it, because their own intuition has no currency in the game, and the pressure to do things someone else's way, or get shouted out will push them to care less.

jaws343 · January 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But that does not mean that any way you set yourself up will be viable. A great example is fishing. Play how you want means that you can spend as little or as much time as you want fishing. But even fishing still requires you to have the correct bait. You can't do any fishing without having the proper bait for where you intend to fish. So play as you want, but you still need to be properly geared for success.

But what is it in the background that determines viability? That is the question. No one's actually arguing that any wacky combination of 5 different sets should be amazing, because its obvious that that person hasn't made an effort.

In your fishing example, there's a broad effort to have it make some sort of sense: certain baits work for certain water types. It feels reasonably logical. So to extend this example to the actual issue people have, imagine that casting Dizzy Swing or Rapid Manoeuvres at the water suddenly gave you 10x more fish. It would almost certainly become the "meta", but it would still be ridiculous and probably contorted. People who want to feel like they're fishing aren't necessarily going to want to feel pressured into doing that, will probably feel disenfranchised from the system and seek less and less to engage it, because their own intuition has no currency in the game, and the pressure to do things someone else's way, or get shouted out will push them to care less.

Success determines viability. It's pretty easy.

Can you complete the content you intend to do with the setup you have. If yes, it is viable. If no, it is not viable.

When it comes to group content, can you complete the content without being a burden to your team, if yes, viable, if no, not viable.

You are still playing how you want, namely, doing specific content. Running terrible sets or flavor builds that do not work in content you are attempting is not what play how you want means. You can try to do that, but you likely won't be successful.

Wanted to add that it is important to make a distinction that Viable does not mean best. Just the minimum needed for success. Say you intend to solo a dungeon on normal. Can you do it wearing Defensive sets and mad tinkerer. Yes. That is viable for that content. Is it the best, absolutely not.

A great example of this is the hubbub around Vateshran Hollows and people complaining that the DPs check on the last boss was too much for their tank builds. Well, that just means that for that content, those builds were not viable. You can play that content, you just need to change the build. Or you can keep the build, you just need to play content the build is viable for. Both are play how you want. Either play the build or play the content with a different build. The issue is, too many people want all builds and all actions to be viable across all content. That would be absurd, and isn't what play how you want is meant to convey.

Supreme_Atromancer · January 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But that does not mean that any way you set yourself up will be viable. A great example is fishing. Play how you want means that you can spend as little or as much time as you want fishing. But even fishing still requires you to have the correct bait. You can't do any fishing without having the proper bait for where you intend to fish. So play as you want, but you still need to be properly geared for success.

But what is it in the background that determines viability? That is the question. No one's actually arguing that any wacky combination of 5 different sets should be amazing, because its obvious that that person hasn't made an effort.

In your fishing example, there's a broad effort to have it make some sort of sense: certain baits work for certain water types. It feels reasonably logical. So to extend this example to the actual issue people have, imagine that casting Dizzy Swing or Rapid Manoeuvres at the water suddenly gave you 10x more fish. It would almost certainly become the "meta", but it would still be ridiculous and probably contorted. People who want to feel like they're fishing aren't necessarily going to want to feel pressured into doing that, will probably feel disenfranchised from the system and seek less and less to engage it, because their own intuition has no currency in the game, and the pressure to do things someone else's way, or get shouted out will push them to care less.

Success determines viability. It's pretty easy.

You're missing the point of the question I'm asking. How is viability designed, and how is it engaged? In a system where you just find the highest numbers, and the skin, the animation, the fluff doesn't matter, you're encouraging success by best spreadsheet. Its an opt-in based on nothing but abstract numbers. Its very unsatisfying for a lot of people who buy into the mythology, or don't want to engage dry numbers. The argument here is that you should be able to get a long way by engaging the system reasonably intuitively. That's what the "play-how-you-want" people are doing it. That's how people new to the game are doing it. They want to "see" success, "feel" powerful, and have the world around them tell them that, based on the decisions they make. That was the original intent behind the system, which was meant to be intuitive and visceral, with minimal dependence on UI and numbers.

Supreme_Atromancer · January 2022

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

The title should phrase:
Reflecting on how good am i and what are my expectations?

Answer:
Your not required to anything unless your not meeting the quotas of a group you are playing with. How you are going to get those depends on you and your playstyle. The most important factor is skill. And it comes down to skill in PVE and PVP alike. If you have a mediocre self made setup, and mediocre skills you will not win against a very good skilled player who runs meme build using worst sets. This game is skill dependant to a point where about 5-10% at most can meet "quotas" in both pvp and pve due to the lack of skill. Just get better [snip]

For more info on the subject i suggest:
[snip]

Your interpretation is what's generally perceived as the problem with with how Nefas delivered his message. No one's playing the victim card.

[edited to remove quote]

Amottica · January 2022

When I started reading the OP my first thought was the people were queueing solo, or not with a full pre-made, which means they were asking for anyone, any build, any experience. So they got what they want and it is great that OP stuck with it and learned more about playing PvP in BGs.

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Why? Because not every part of ESO allows us to play however we want.

When I got to the sentence I quoted my thought was that it is clear that not every build that could possibly be made in ESO is expected to perform equally to every other build in every possible situation or even close to being equal. It allows us to make choices and part of that choice is to build to be very effective, if that is what we want.

Math is what determines how well a build will perform. Sometimes that is giving up a little in damage to get some survival but it is still math. For ESO trial and error are needed to tweak some of the good builds but when we finish we have the build we want and are playing as we want.

silvereyes · January 2022

Thanks for sharing your experience @thesarahandcompany. I tend to generally agree with most of what has been said here. I agree that "Play How You Want" is marketer-speak focused on the casual / solo player crowd, and I don't necessarily think that it would be good for every crazy combination of weapon, armor and class to be able to fill any role. Building for success for particular roles with the tools available to your class is one of the more fun parts of ESO, IMO.

However, I do think that ESO marketing is a bit disingenuous about what "Play How You Want" means. They've constantly made suboptimal builds a selling point, making it seem like they are core to the way the game is meant to be played. This was in the original game packaging, but they are also still doing it. Right in the introduction video released recently:

https://youtu.be/KxJTsq2XeKY?t=252

The basis for the customization system in Elder Scrolls Online is that you can use whatever weapon or armor type you actually want to use. You can play as a heavy armor character who's a tank with a bow. Or you can play as a mage who uses a two-handed weapon. Or you can play as a sneaky guy who runs around healing people. The combination that you selected out of what armor type you use, what weapon type you use and what class you use really creates a unique character experience for you.

They talk about these choices making your character "stand out" in the world, with nary a word to indicate that these choices will make you bad at your job in a team setting, or that the way you "stand out" will be like a sore thumb.

Nezyr_Jezz · January 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

The title should phrase:
Reflecting on how good am i and what are my expectations?

Answer:
Your not required to anything unless your not meeting the quotas of a group you are playing with. How you are going to get those depends on you and your playstyle. The most important factor is skill. And it comes down to skill in PVE and PVP alike. If you have a mediocre self made setup, and mediocre skills you will not win against a very good skilled player who runs meme build using worst sets. This game is skill dependant to a point where about 5-10% at most can meet "quotas" in both pvp and pve due to the lack of skill. Just get better [snip]

For more info on the subject i suggest:
[snip]

Your interpretation is what's generally perceived as the problem with with how Nefas delivered his message. No one's playing the victim card.

If your unwilling to learn its on you not on me. A bad workman always blames his tools.

PVP is all about learning and adapting. [snip] Hes basically stating in public that he doesn't want to learn and adapt and thus the game prevents him from playing what he wants, where in reality is that if he would be good enough in making builds he would not have problems playing more niche ones that are not considered "meta".

Aside from that ESO is not a single player game. Get friends and form a group. But nowdays group players are blamed for being elitist because they are playing in groups.

And i back Nefas a 100%.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Supreme_Atromancer · January 2022

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

The title should phrase:
Reflecting on how good am i and what are my expectations?

Answer:
Your not required to anything unless your not meeting the quotas of a group you are playing with. How you are going to get those depends on you and your playstyle. The most important factor is skill. And it comes down to skill in PVE and PVP alike. If you have a mediocre self made setup, and mediocre skills you will not win against a very good skilled player who runs meme build using worst sets. This game is skill dependant to a point where about 5-10% at most can meet "quotas" in both pvp and pve due to the lack of skill. Just get better [snip]

For more info on the subject i suggest:
[snip]

Your interpretation is what's generally perceived as the problem with with how Nefas delivered his message. No one's playing the victim card.

If your unwilling to learn its on you not on me. A bad workman always blames his tools.

PVP is all about learning and adapting. [snip] Hes basically stating in public that he doesn't want to learn and adapt and thus the game prevents him from playing what he wants, where in reality is that if he would be good enough in making builds he would not have problems playing more niche ones that are not considered "meta".

Aside from that ESO is not a single player game. Get friends and form a group. But nowdays group players are blamed for being elitist because they are playing in groups.

And i back Nefas a 100%.

thesarahandcompany was simply discussing the nature of meta, there's nothing wrong with that.

Nefas' message was essentially calling out people who he perceives to be attacking end-game players. The problem a lot of people had wasn't in fact, with that. Most people agree on principle. The problem is that the language used seems like a call to arms for people who don't quite get it, are just angry, and want someone to blame. If his message is to be used as ammunition and vitriol against people who even dare to approach the sacred topic of meta, then its been executed poorly, regardless of the intent.

[edited to remove quote]

Eormenric · January 2022

@thesarahandcompany

Beautifully-written post. I connect with your journey from "I'll do whatever I want" to "Maybe there's more I need to understand BEFORE I can do whatever I want." I think this paints the distinction between pride and stubbornness, and I believe most of us could do with accepting change doesn't mean conformity or elitism.

To me, elitism is more of your actions towards others than your own wayward implementations. I've been kicked from groups, hated on, and more, because I didn't have a skill on my bars, didn't farm a certain set, or even didn't pull in enemies as a tank. After receiving their "punishment", I was furious and did all sorts of things to justify my stance. When in the end, it's not that they were right, it's that I could do with being prepared because that's what ESO tries to instill in players.

There are so many options in ESO. It's 100% overwhelming. But they are all solutions to the same sets of problems. Example: There's 7 ways to pull in enemies (1 Monster Helm, 1 Arena Set, 1 PvE set, 1 PvP set, 2 class abilities (technically 3 if you count Warden's frozen device), 1 guild ability). The fact that I'm refusing to invest in ONE of those is a shame on me as an MMO player. I do still think, however, that when your options boil down to a single item or skill, THAT is the main problem. And doling out consequences to people that don't accept that singular choice is the root of elitism--because that elitist needs to understand that it might not sit right with the person to be forced into that ONE option. That's not an example of "play the way you want".

For me, instead of investing so much into a singular build in PvE, I now have builds for each difficult dungeon/trial. It's a combination of what helps me survive and what my team needs in these specific scenarios. And I know the same can be said for PvP--though usually more difficult when determining build versatility.

You are not any one word in your approach to this game. Inherently, you are someone that self-reflects, questions, and tests. A true inquisitor. And that aptitude is especially needed in team environments.

Tornaad · January 2022

First off, let me say this, one of the things that has kept me playing different Elder Scrolls games for almost 20 years now is the ability to play the way I want to play. However, until I picked up ESO 4 years ago, that time was exclusively spent in a single player experience. In a single player PVE experience, it is entirely possible to create a situation where you can play the way you want to play and have no conflicts. However, the moment you put another player on the other side then that changes everything.

At that point competition which will always be there, is going to force out of the woodworks the best gear sets, the best skills and skill combinations, and the best playstyles. And even if you took and removed anything that made things different, you would still have differing skill levels and play styles that would hinder your ability to play the way you want to play.

If you are going to play against other players, then you either choose to lose, or you choose to play whatever the best methodology is. This is something that has been part of the human experience since before we knew how to write. Sure, you might have the occasional person like myself who will continue to play my way and just redefine what it means to win, but I am an oddity in that and not something you can ever expect to see in a majority.

The only way to truly enable PVP based situations to be completely play your way is for everyone involved to agree on the idea. So, for example, if you could get a group of battle ground players and decide that the person with the most damage taken by arrows without dying is the victor. Then you enable a play your way situation, but if even one person says "No this is ridiculous" then no amount of programming or optimization on the part of the Devs could enable that group to play their way.

Nezyr_Jezz · January 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

If his message is to be used as ammunition and vitriol against people who even dare to approach the sacred topic of meta, then its been executed poorly, regardless of the intent.

It's not sacred. It just is, weather anyone agrees or not. Some players will seek optimization and thus get better overall performance. Others will derp (and i do not mean it as an insult). It's a general guidance for casual people that do not have time to research their own builds that can get better overall performance by doing mathematically tested and proven setups. If your experimenting solo solo, it's on you, but if your trying to derp in a group that expects results in a competitive player versus player environment they have every right to kick you. As i said it all depends on what your expectations are.

Supreme_Atromancer · January 2022

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

If his message is to be used as ammunition and vitriol against people who even dare to approach the sacred topic of meta, then its been executed poorly, regardless of the intent.

It just is, weather anyone agrees or not.

That happens to be a very interesting point for a lot of us to discuss.

You might not intend to be joining the brigade, but accusing someone of playing the victim card and then immediately referencing the Nefas rant on toxic behaviour would suggest you think its relevant.

That's where I think the message fails. If its an appeal to everyone to get some perspective and stop being toxic, regardless of your stance, its great. If its being understood as a rally against the part of the community you hate, or a slogan used to shut down productive discussion you disagree with or don't understand, then that's just serving close-minded bigotry.

I understand the appeal to own your failures in order to improve. But that's far easier to find palatable when the status quo is already in your favour. Discussing how you might perceive that status quo, relating your experience isn't in any way toxic and if this sort of attitude is what we can expect off the back of that video, its done nothing but drive more us-and-them crap where its not warranted.

StarOfElyon · January 2022

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I remember when I first started playing deathmatch battlegrounds in ESO. I played a sorcerer with four pets. Playing with pets was something you’d never see many players doing. To be clear, it was a lackluster setup compared to other ways you might play sorcerer in battlegrounds. I didn’t care. I was playing the way I wanted to play. I never finished off anyone. I died a lot. I cost the team the game constantly. Eventually, I got better at playing the build. I didn’t die much. I did a lot more damage or healing than before. I even managed to secure a few finishing blows (without endless fury).

Even though I improved, many players still criticized the way I played because I was a serious limit to my team. If you are like me and believe in rational choice (sometimes), I make the assumption about BG players that we are rational. We enter battlegrounds wanting to win. No rational player enters BGs with the intention to lose. Or, in the famous words of Alyssa Edwards, “winning isn’t everything, but wanting to win is.”

Anyway, my first reaction to my critics was to say they were “elitist.” I took every opportunity to get better at my build with four pets. I was determined to prove everyone wrong; that I could play the way I wanted to play and engage in the upper thresholds of MMR. I did somewhat get there, but it was never enough. Why? Because not every part of ESO allows us to play however we want.

In the context of PvP, it is difficult to play the way I want to play, compared to something like housing. In housing, there’s no formula or code that tells me when I’ve created the most visually stunning house. There’s no function in ESO that tells me when I’ve placed my artwork on the right wall. Housing design comes down to choice and subjectivity (net of the e-physics).

In PvP, and in some cases PvE, there is a formula and code behind the scenes of ESO. I can look at those formulas and prove the condition(s) in which I’ve theoretically maximized, say, damage output in order to complete the obstacle or objective (whether defeating a boss, capturing a flag or eliminating an enemy player).

Since venturing out of my four-pet sorcerer build, I’ve achieved things in battlegrounds I’ve never thought I could do. It comes from an understanding of the combat system, every passive, status effect and proc condition. I’ve made new friends. Have found a part of the community that accepts me for who I am as a person and player.

All this said, I’m left wondering to myself whether I’m elitist or just rational about the game. I by no means want to tell people how to decorate their house or dress their character. For that reason, I don’t feel like an elitist. I do recognize that PvP is a math formula and puzzle, and we can come to a few answers that are righter than others.

How do we reconcile the rational and reasonable goal to win PvP, while also the fact that playing the way you want to play can often go against that rational goal?

I play mag/stam hybrids with off-meta race choices. What keeps me going is my stubbornness. It takes stubbornness when you have to deal with getting hate in group chat (by voice in the past), hate whispers, and tea-bagged because you dared to play off-meta builds.

thesarahandcompany · January 2022

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

The title should phrase:
Reflecting on how good am i and what are my expectations?

Answer:
Your not required to anything unless your not meeting the quotas of a group you are playing with. How you are going to get those depends on you and your playstyle. The most important factor is skill. And it comes down to skill in PVE and PVP alike. If you have a mediocre self made setup, and mediocre skills you will not win against a very good skilled player who runs meme build using worst sets. This game is skill dependant to a point where about 5-10% at most can meet "quotas" in both pvp and pve due to the lack of skill. Just get better [snip]

For more info on the subject i suggest:
[snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

You're*

Anyway.

I was being a good OP but I'll chime in on this specific point. I disagree with you completely. The relationship between skill and success in ESO is inherently tied to gear access. The two interact undoubtedly and when one is particularly bad, it brings the value down of the other. Try clearing vCR with no gear on. Try clearing vCR with the best gear and not know how to LA weave.

I don't need a post to reflect on how good I am. I know I am. Thank you.

This post brings up a valid question about the mantra of ESO and how it's at odds with the core aspect of MMOs and Online RPGs.

[edited to remove quote]

Amottica · January 2022

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

The title should phrase:
Reflecting on how good am i and what are my expectations?

Answer:
Your not required to anything unless your not meeting the quotas of a group you are playing with. How you are going to get those depends on you and your playstyle. The most important factor is skill. And it comes down to skill in PVE and PVP alike. If you have a mediocre self made setup, and mediocre skills you will not win against a very good skilled player who runs meme build using worst sets. This game is skill dependant to a point where about 5-10% at most can meet "quotas" in both pvp and pve due to the lack of skill. Just get better [snip]

For more info on the subject i suggest:
[snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

You're*

Anyway.

I was being a good OP but I'll chime on this specific point. I disagree with you completely. The relationship skill and success in ESO is inherently tied to gear access. The two interact undoubtedly and when one is particularly bad, it brings the value down of the other. Try clearing vCR with no gear on. Try clearing vCR with the best gear and not know how to LA weave.

I don't need a post to reflect on how good I am. I know I am. Thank you.

This post brings up a valid question about the mantra of ESO and how it's at odds with the core aspect of MMOs and Online RPGs.

With the exception of PvP where stuns rule the game, player skill overwhelmingly dictates who is the stronger player.

A better comparison of gear than a no gear vCR would be the DPS of an average player in a meta build vs a top player wearing only crafted gear. The top player will outperform because they have taken the time to refine their skill. Even the OP notes that practice lead to their game improving which supports my comment.

[edited to remove quote]

Sawbones194 · January 2022

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I remember when I first started playing deathmatch battlegrounds in ESO. I played a sorcerer with four pets. Playing with pets was something you’d never see many players doing. To be clear, it was a lackluster setup compared to other ways you might play sorcerer in battlegrounds. I didn’t care. I was playing the way I wanted to play. I never finished off anyone. I died a lot. I cost the team the game constantly. Eventually, I got better at playing the build. I didn’t die much. I did a lot more damage or healing than before. I even managed to secure a few finishing blows (without endless fury).

Even though I improved, many players still criticized the way I played because I was a serious limit to my team. If you are like me and believe in rational choice (sometimes), I make the assumption about BG players that we are rational. We enter battlegrounds wanting to win. No rational player enters BGs with the intention to lose. Or, in the famous words of Alyssa Edwards, “winning isn’t everything, but wanting to win is.”

You are my [snip] hero. [snip] I play a quite popular build from a quite popular German eso content-Creator so I play quite good (but not PvP). But what you describe is the essence of eso: play waht you want and how you want. YOU are the player and you should do what ever you can to have the most fun and the best time. The other players meet you for 1 round and forget you after the round. So don't listen to them.

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

Dem_kitkats1 · January 2022

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I remember when I first started playing deathmatch battlegrounds in ESO. I played a sorcerer with four pets. Playing with pets was something you’d never see many players doing. To be clear, it was a lackluster setup compared to other ways you might play sorcerer in battlegrounds. I didn’t care. I was playing the way I wanted to play. I never finished off anyone. I died a lot. I cost the team the game constantly. Eventually, I got better at playing the build. I didn’t die much. I did a lot more damage or healing than before. I even managed to secure a few finishing blows (without endless fury).

I think this is definitely a complex and controversial issue in the game that has many different layers to it. One that calls into question as to what kind of game ESO really is? I recently started a thread about the impact of support roles in the game and this notion of "I want to play what I want" came up time and time again. However, it seems that players are not necessarily talking about different playstyles on different classes, or using a variety of different sets and skills to achieve the way they want to play. No, "play the way you want", is a term used to say that players want access to max damage, as well as have ability to be self reliant in every aspect of the game despite their role, class, or race. Whether it be solo or team play, players demand for their characters to be able to do it all and well with no concessions.

And, unfortunately, in trying to help players achieve this, sets and mythics more powerful than the vast majority of the previous ones were introduced. And without incorporating them into your build you have less of an impact in both PvE or PvP. And in the case of PvP, you definitely have less ability to compete against someone who has optimized one of these sets. Thus, we have "set metas" where the numbers game comes into play and builds become about the ways to best optimize the use of these sets with others and with your class skills, and diversity is squashed. This becomes worse in PvP because there are already a limited number of sets that are even viable to use in the first place. Because of this, the pathway to success becomes very narrow, and straying from it can greatly impact your performance. And since ESO is designed to be a team game, your personal performance also impacts those who are playing with you. I think this is partly why elitist attitudes and the inability to play in diverse ways began to appear in ESO culture.

Amottica wrote: »

With the exception of PvP where stuns rule the game, player skill overwhelmingly dictates who is the stronger player.

A better comparison of gear than a no gear vCR would be the DPS of an average player in a meta build vs a top player wearing only crafted gear. The top player will outperform because they have taken the time to refine their skill. Even the OP notes that practice lead to their game improving which supports my comment.

I have to disagree that gear has minimal to do with success in the game. Metas are metas for a reason. The extra stats and abilities that sets can give you, practically for free, is pretty insane. So it's no wonder that players gravitate to them. Put that on an experienced player and good luck trying to take them down without it 1v1. Just look at how Dark Convergence practically broke PvP. When it was first introduced 1 player could take out groups of enemy players by one click of a button. Their ability to kill others had nothing to do with skill.

So I don't think that playing meta makes you elitist, it's just how the game has evolved to cater to this overwhelming "solo" player mentality. I definitely think elitism is an attitude as others have said. I feel that elitism and toxicity in the culture of ESO could be an interesting and entirely new thread on its own because of its complexity.

silvereyes · January 2022

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

This post brings up a valid question about the mantra of ESO and how it's at odds with the core aspect of MMOs and Online RPGs.

I think that really hits the nail on the head.

From its inception, ESO has always been a bit of a split personality. It's trying to be an MMORPG, with specialized roles and teamwork. But it's also trying to be Elder Scrolls, which up until ESO always meant single player, story rich sandboxes that the player could fill every role in. This would be impossible enough as it is, but then it also tries to do large-scale and small-scale PvP with the same scaling, buffs, weapons, classes as PvE.

It all adds up to a glorious mess with a lot of seams and steep learning curves to climb. The game itself could certainly do a much better job at guiding the player through these transitions, and at changing the math to increase the diversity of viable builds, imo.

As things stand, I think you have come to the same conclusion that many people who stick with the game do: there are fun builds that fit your preferred fantasy for your character, and there are powerful builds that fit the math. Much of the time, they won't be the same thing, especially if your preferences for the former are strong enough.

Amottica · January 2022

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

With the exception of PvP where stuns rule the game, player skill overwhelmingly dictates who is the stronger player.

A better comparison of gear than a no gear vCR would be the DPS of an average player in a meta build vs a top player wearing only crafted gear. The top player will outperform because they have taken the time to refine their skill. Even the OP notes that practice lead to their game improving which supports my comment.

I have to disagree that gear has minimal to do with success in the game. Metas are metas for a reason. The extra stats and abilities that sets can give you, practically for free, is pretty insane. So it's no wonder that players gravitate to them. Put that on an experienced player and good luck trying to take them down without it 1v1. Just look at how Dark Convergence practically broke PvP. When it was first introduced 1 player could take out groups of enemy players by one click of a button. Their ability to kill others had nothing to do with skill.

So I don't think that playing meta makes you elitist, it's just how the game has evolved to cater to this "solo" mentality. I definitely think elitism is an attitude as others have said. I feel that elitism and toxicity in the culture of ESO could be an interesting and entirely new thread on its own because of its complexity.

I think I do not understand your post. I never said meta was meaningless. However, equipping meta gear on the average player will not lead to that average player doing top DPS. They will not until and unless they improve their playing. Heck, there are players doing less than 20k DPS and gear will not make the difference between them doing that 20k and somehow doing 80k. So yes, meta gear will have less meaning with a player doing 20k dps. Player skill is most important.

MindOfTheSwarm · January 2022

Don’t get sucked into the myth of having to play a certain way. In PVE endgame if you got 40k DPS you’re good enough for completing any vet trial. It’s not enough for scoreboards but it’s good enough to do it for gear farming or quest completion.

For PVP it depends on what you’re doing. If you killing folks then as long as you are killing more than you are dying that’s good. If you’re healing and keeping people alive then it’s good. It’s all about whether you can do you’re job. Yes, there are certain things in PVP that are better, burst and even more so movement speed (people often underestimate movement and how strong it is.) PvP biggest issue is healing output and how healers are basically tanks, that and new sets such as Convergence and Plaguebreak.

Supreme_Atromancer · January 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

With the exception of PvP where stuns rule the game, player skill overwhelmingly dictates who is the stronger player.

A better comparison of gear than a no gear vCR would be the DPS of an average player in a meta build vs a top player wearing only crafted gear. The top player will outperform because they have taken the time to refine their skill. Even the OP notes that practice lead to their game improving which supports my comment.

I have to disagree that gear has minimal to do with success in the game. Metas are metas for a reason. The extra stats and abilities that sets can give you, practically for free, is pretty insane. So it's no wonder that players gravitate to them. Put that on an experienced player and good luck trying to take them down without it 1v1. Just look at how Dark Convergence practically broke PvP. When it was first introduced 1 player could take out groups of enemy players by one click of a button. Their ability to kill others had nothing to do with skill.

So I don't think that playing meta makes you elitist, it's just how the game has evolved to cater to this "solo" mentality. I definitely think elitism is an attitude as others have said. I feel that elitism and toxicity in the culture of ESO could be an interesting and entirely new thread on its own because of its complexity.

I think I do not understand your post. I never said meta was meaningless. However, equipping meta gear on the average player will not lead to that average player doing top DPS. They will not until and unless they improve their playing. Heck, there are players doing less than 20k DPS and gear will not make the difference between them doing that 20k and somehow doing 80k. So yes, meta gear will have less meaning with a player doing 20k dps. Player skill is most important.

Light weaving is also meta. Its not something done organically. So is rotation, skill loadouts.

etchedpixels · January 2022

For end game the meta is not pasted from Alcast or any other streamer, because the meta for a 12 man trial is a precisely calculated assignment of sets and skills to achieve maximuum DPS across the entire group. In short the meta is a 12 man build not a 1 man build.

For PvP there are also good arguments for not being a cut and paste alleged meta. Players learn to spot standard builds. They know how to counter and destroy Alcast standard stamplar number 2 because they've killed 50 of them this week already.

etchedpixels · January 2022

Amottica wrote: »

However, equipping meta gear on the average player will not lead to that average player doing top DPS. They will not until and unless they improve their playing. Heck, there are players doing less than 20k DPS and gear will not make the difference between them doing that 20k and somehow doing 80k. So yes, meta gear will have less meaning with a player doing 20k dps. Player skill is most important.

To a point.

Putting top end hard to use gear like Bah'sei on a newer player is a disaster. Meta it maybe but it needs skill. Likewise a lot of other sets.

For good or bad I think three things matter not two

1. Learning to play. Not standing in the crap, interrupting, blocking, position, mechanics, using the right skills at the right time.
2. Getting decent (not necessarily meta) gear
3. Understanding all the buffs, debuffs, sources, combinations and the maths for things like penetration and critical

The last 40K is all about numbers. Doing parses, analysing them in detail, precisely tuning the levels of various things, finding the exact food for dummy parsing, getting all the right buffs up 100% and so on. Much of it entirely irrelevant except to posting 'god level' dummy numbers.

I'm not sure that's a good result of the way the game is built, but it's the one we have.