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SUPPORT ROLES ARE DYING
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ForeverJenn wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »ForeverJenn wrote: »Support is needed in most vet content. If you are upset that your support chars are boring in normal content, then challenge yourself to more endgame stuff.
You can literally solo the majority of dungeons on vet hard mode. The only thing that discourages you from doing so is that you can do it faster by bringing more people.
All the vet solo arenas are basically a joke especially with Pale Order ring.
You could probably even solo many stages of vet group arenas it would just be a waste of time.
And usually the solution to your problem is not that you need more supports, you just need more damage to reduce your clear time.
Then challenge yourself to Hard Modes and Trials and coordinate your support role with your friends.
Challenge myself by doing what? Not wearing armor at all or draining myself of all CP beforehand? Intentionally wearing trash sets that make no sense for my build? How do you make something challenging that is simply not challenging?
You walk over and do the same rotation over and over and enemies literally melt before your eyes.
All the best sets in the game are literally just procs that add extra damage or buffs onto abilities that are already inside your existing rotation so they require no thought at all. You just continue doing the same rotation and using the same 5 skills and good things happen.Edited by YoureWrongImRight on January 4, 2022 6:04PM1 -
ForeverJenn✭✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »ForeverJenn wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »ForeverJenn wrote: »Support is needed in most vet content. If you are upset that your support chars are boring in normal content, then challenge yourself to more endgame stuff.
You can literally solo the majority of dungeons on vet hard mode. The only thing that discourages you from doing so is that you can do it faster by bringing more people.
All the vet solo arenas are basically a joke especially with Pale Order ring.
You could probably even solo many stages of vet group arenas it would just be a waste of time.
And usually the solution to your problem is not that you need more supports, you just need more damage to reduce your clear time.
Then challenge yourself to Hard Modes and Trials and coordinate your support role with your friends.
Challenge myself by doing what? Not wearing armor at all or draining myself of all CP beforehand? Intentionally wearing trash sets that make no sense for my build? How do you make something challenging that is simply not challenging?
You walk over and do the same rotation over and over and enemies literally melt before your eyes.
All the best sets in the game are literally just procs that add extra damage or buffs onto abilities that are already inside your existing rotation so they require no thought ar all. You just continue doing the same rotation and using the same 5 skills and good things happen.
No. Many end game proc sets that are used by support require you to heavy attack, light attack, keep your stamina low, and other mechanics you have to pay attention to. You have to watch your buff uptimes on the group. You have to watch ele drain, fetcher, your minor and major buffs to dps. Things are even crazier if you play a necro.
You do not seem familiar with end game support, so that is why I say you should give it a try. It's not a boring role. Especially when you are doing things like kiting. My healer had to farm over a dozen sets because different things are needed.
There's a lot more than just farming dungeons you could be doing as support, you just need to give it a try.5 -
ForeverJenn wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »ForeverJenn wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »ForeverJenn wrote: »Support is needed in most vet content. If you are upset that your support chars are boring in normal content, then challenge yourself to more endgame stuff.
You can literally solo the majority of dungeons on vet hard mode. The only thing that discourages you from doing so is that you can do it faster by bringing more people.
All the vet solo arenas are basically a joke especially with Pale Order ring.
You could probably even solo many stages of vet group arenas it would just be a waste of time.
And usually the solution to your problem is not that you need more supports, you just need more damage to reduce your clear time.
Then challenge yourself to Hard Modes and Trials and coordinate your support role with your friends.
Challenge myself by doing what? Not wearing armor at all or draining myself of all CP beforehand? Intentionally wearing trash sets that make no sense for my build? How do you make something challenging that is simply not challenging?
You walk over and do the same rotation over and over and enemies literally melt before your eyes.
All the best sets in the game are literally just procs that add extra damage or buffs onto abilities that are already inside your existing rotation so they require no thought ar all. You just continue doing the same rotation and using the same 5 skills and good things happen.
No. Many end game proc sets that are used by support require you to heavy attack, light attack, keep your stamina low, and other mechanics you have to pay attention to. You have to watch your buff uptimes on the group. You have to watch ele drain, fetcher, your minor and major buffs to dps. Things are even crazier if you play a necro.
You do not seem familiar with end game support, so that is why I say you should give it a try. It's not a boring role. Especially when you are doing things like kiting. My healer had to farm over a dozen sets because different things are needed.
There's a lot more than just farming dungeons you could be doing as support, you just need to give it a try.
In what world are light attacks and ele drain not part of a basic rotation?
I would be interested to see you list out what this magical end game content is that is actually hard. Like 3 vet Trials?
Why is the content intended for 4 people not challenging for 4 people? Why is the solo content not challenging for a solo?
Everyone needs to go get a group of 12 sweatys together and go do one of these 3 Trials if they really want a challenge.
The content should be hard relative to the number of people it is intended for no? Not just adding more people makes it more difficult.4 -
Fennwitty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »ForeverJenn wrote: »Support is needed in most vet content. If you are upset that your support chars are boring in normal content, then challenge yourself to more endgame stuff.
You can literally solo the majority of dungeons on vet hard mode. The only thing that discourages you from doing so is that you can do it faster by bringing more people.
And usually the solution to your problem is not that you need more supports, you just need more damage to reduce your clear time.
This is all relative to the skill levels of the players involved.
Technically sure it's doable by some players. But the overwhelming majority of players cannot. Whether gear/knowledge/time/physical limitations/too casual or whatever.
A recurring theme in threads is the assumption made by many that "everyone's as good as I am, I don't need much support, thus nobody does."
Top end and casual players live in almost entirely different worlds in the current game.
In situations where it's simply not feasible for all DPS roles to parse even 30k+ damage, 'do more damage' isn't a strategy. I see tons of casual players still pulling 5-10k on a good day. And those numbers are what base game dungeons were designed for originally.
If players are still playing the game according to the original plan where 30k was god-tier years ago, those players need a solid group to complete group content. Dungeons were supposed to take more than 10 minutes each.
In the current state of ESO, players that can parse 100k+ damage are simply overwhelming the original dungeon design and killing bosses like they were trash mobs. And the players are outhealing damage and otherwise because the older content's never meaningfully updated.
The power creep over years at the top makes a completely divergent experience for players.Edited by Fennwitty on January 4, 2022 7:47PMPC NA7 -
I guess in general everyone just thinks that everyone else is trash. For that reason we need to keep increasing DPS abilities to self sustain/heal etc that used to belong to real support roles.
What is not considered is that in the hands of experienced players these increases make the gap between new and vet players even larger. "We need to increase self sufficiency so that new players can survive". It is definitely not helping them at all in PvP, they still get killed basically instantly and it is instead the veteran players who are benefiting to the point where they steam roll new players in PvP literally by the dozens, 20 noobs combined can't even kill one person. It also allows them to complete "veteran" content that is intended for 4 people as a solo player with relative ease.
Can people not accept that not all content should be able to be completed by all people until they have reached a certain competency in the game? The solution always seems to be to keep bringing the requirements down further and further so that you could basically complete anything with random Overland drops.
Even if I believed it was hard enough for the average person like your suggesting (I don't actually believe that), would it not make sense to at least add ways to enhance difficulty and reward for more experienced people? Add the Hard Mode scroll to the start of the dungeon and have it run on extra difficulty all the way through, hell add multiple extra difficulty levels and change the loot accordingly. Have mini bosses have a chance to drop weapons, have chances to drop gold items, have a large amount of transmutes as a reward like 50 so it allows you to swap a jewelry piece trait. Enable people to actually make it hard like it should people and give them a little incentive for doing so.
"It's too hard for new players" is not a good excuse to leave it as it is where people can just steam roll everyone and everything with zero effort with some basic gear and knowledge. Everyone knows how far you can get with just Mother's Sorrow + Julianos which is not exactly hard to get. This would go a long way to actually making the support roles relevant again.
Oh, and stop making everything a one shot on higher difficulties, who cares about having a healer when you're either alive or dead with no in between.9 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »Why is the content intended for 4 people not challenging for 4 people? Why is the solo content not challenging for a solo?
For most players it is. Some of the four man content like veteran depths of malatar is probably beyond most players, at least I don't see everyone wandering round with the skin, and they all seem to quit the moment they see its their random
The other half of the answer is that some people become good enough they can beat they game and have done everything. Congratulations if so - you won. Now you can go play something different.
Too many toons not enough time5 -
By the looks of some particular replies here, this thread appears to be derailing into basically nothing more than trolling support players.
If people want to believe that tanks and healers are not needed in the game anymore because the game is now full of all these uber dds that can do everything without supports since that have such awesome dps, then nothing anyone can say is going to change their minds. **eyerolls**
[snip]
[Edit for Baiting.]
I don't feel like I am trolling anyone by wanting the healer role to be better and more important that it currently is. I actually want it to be useful and engaging as I have almost always been a healer main until I got to this game and basically said "wow is this seriously it?". The most I have seen is basically "but who else would cast ele drain" and "you need to light attack sometimes".
What is it that you feel you are bringing to the group dynamic that is not already being brought with DPS and a tank? Others want them to have an actual identity with valuable skills that are desirable.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on January 6, 2022 12:48AM2 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »Scrolling the forum threads I noticed a trend in both PvE and PvP content that support roles are becoming less and less impactful in game play. In a game designed for team play, content and skills are being more and more catered to solo players. So much so that DPS toons can deal out so much damage and healing combined that the roles for healers and tanks have become so diminished that they are rarely needed for group content. It's to the point where experienced, well built DPS players can duo or even solo vet dlc content. People que as fake healers and tanks because they can get away with it as it's not imperative to have support roles filled (especially in normal content).And players find support roles boring to play until they play vet hardmode content.
In PvP support roles lack the abilities and skills to be more than trolly unkillable toons. Aside from that many players believe tanks are not necessary to be successful. Healers are powerful almost Godlike because there is also so much off hand healing and self healing on every dps toon on top of it. So players call for nerfs on them constantly.
I think it's a shame that support roles are diminishing because they simply no longer have as much of an impact as they should. If I would like to switch it up and play a support, gameplay should be just as engaging as when I play a dd, just in another way. But as of now gameplay is reduced to throwing out a couple of buffs and extra heals and then switching back to dd playstyle the rest of the time. Or support roles expose the imbalances of the game and are blamed and nerfed and dps remains untouched or perhaps even stronger. I think this unfortunate for people who really want to play more of a support role.
(This is coming from someone who has multiple healers and dds)
I mean , maybe if you are a mage.
But stams take dmg from up close and halers are angelsI am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!2 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm a casual tank with a healer alt who plays from Asia with high latency. That means vet content is a bit of a mess with networking, and spell weaving is only successful half the time, so I stick to normal pug dungeons and support roles.
When I started tanking, it was reasonably rewarding. On occasion, people would thank support players in particular for an easy run. It felt good.
In the last year, I've had several groups complain that they had an actual tank on their team instead of a DPS queued as a tank, and have seen a similar complaint about the healer on our team. One player told me I was being selfish, and that if I wanted to tank, I should make a private group instead of clogging up the Dungeon Finder. Not all groups are like this - some still can use healers and tanks - but enough that it's vexing.
Perhaps things are different in vet content, but a non-trivial number of people have open scorn for two-thirds of roles now in normal content. I've flat-out stopped doing dungeons at this point. It isn't rewarding or fun.
I'd love to see some small changes to bring DPS importance in line with support roles. For instance:
- Slightly decrease cheap survivability value in Champion Points, and slightly increase outgoing monster damage in all non-Overland content
- When a player has a taunt on the active bar, increase armour and health
- When a player has a Resto Staff bar equipped in either current or offhand slot, increase healing done
Or similar measures that would achieve the same thing. The goal would be that healers and tanks keep similar healing and durability respectively, while DPS need to either invest a bit in durability at a cost to damage, or rely on existing healers and tanks. Nothing enormous, just a tweak downwards to DPS being king in all content.
Your story makes me sad. I have yet to experience this as a healer or task, but I believe it.
However I'm still not sure that the people hoping to get fake DPS understand what good healers and tanks can actually do.
One thing I think people forget is that healers ALWAYS were meant to augment with DPS even from the beginning. The fact that, as a healer, I could also add damage that would make a difference, made healing in ESO so much more fun than in any other MMO I have ever played.
Power creep actually broke this, too, in that what healers could bring to the table was so much less than what pure spec'd DPS could bring that our damage no longer makes much of a difference unless you are a VERY good healer and know how to swap cp points, gear, and bars on the fly based on your group.
I think possibly a way to "fix" healers is to bring back the idea that they add to damage. But in a way that only works if they spec for healing. For example, maybe healing abilities that also do damage do GREATER damage per healing ability slotted.
This may be something to consider for tanks, too. What's better than a fake tank? A REAL tank that can also do some damage. Maybe tanks deal more damage for every taunt and shield slotted.
It shouldn't be enough to challenge a true DPS (at least, not easily) but enough so that fake roles seem less appealing and playing support roles is a little more fun.
At any rate, I miss the days as a healer when my damage mattered when I was specced primarily as a healer. I can do a hybrid spec and pull good numbers, but if the group needs real heals I can't really do this. But there was a time when this was pretty feasible. Perhaps that's the REAL problem here. Not that DPS can bring good self heals, but that supports can't bring acceptable DPS... enough to make a difference.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well...
If we talk about random normal dungeons then those are just boring on a real tank. At least for me. I dont see any option to change that as it would make dungeons just bad for new players.
If we talk about vet dungeons then it was said 101 times already. Support roles prefer to queue with friends. DDs in dungeon finder often cant pull even 10k DPS which makes dungeons... Not fun. But every time ppl talk about it there is discussion what is bad and what is fake. Because DD who cant do more DMG than a full support tank in vet dlc is just bad dd not fake... Anyway...
If we talk about trials then i'm doing those only when my friends needs help. I have a rule of not skipping adds so a lot of ppl in pugs doesnt like me
In PvP i dont know. Last time when my friend was leveling up skill line on a healer and asked to be invited to the group he was healing for some time, he was ignored. When he left the person who ignored him started complaining that nobody wants to play a healer on the zone chat. So i guess everything is okay there.
If we talk about content difficulty... Weaker players are complaining - zos nerfs dungeon fight so much that its becomes just boring - vet players are complaining that this is overnerf - casual players blames vet players for gatekeeping content - etc etc...
Vet players ask for more challenging content - not worth the investment, better add content that will be good for more ppl etc.
Also we have power creep. With each year older content becomes easier. So much easier that u can survive some HA without blocking in older dungeons...
Do i feel like im dying? Well... Could be better. Some QoL changes, more support skills and weapons... But i still have fun doing stuff with my friends so its okay.
What would make me play with randoms? Probably nothing. Im kinda sick of ppl. Every time there is a fake tanks thread we get: force stuff on tanks, destroy current tanking system and create new, add aoe taunt, make tanks do DMG, some kind of respect system, i like pizza, everything except addresing real tanks problems. So sorry but why should i even care? Ppl just want to destroy my fun from tanking because there is no tank for theirs random dungeon run... Also im happy because i play with my friends. My friends are happy because they have a good tank. Im happy because "I play how i want". Did i forget anything...?
There is my idea from some time ago. So we can make fun of me. Like how i dare think about making ppl life easier :xRandom Dungeon Reward - 5 (10 without opt out from DLC Dungeons). You get it always on completion of dungeon or after 15min so u dont loose too much if group isnt able to beat dungeon. If u get kicked u dont get the reward. Also you always get this reward for doing randoms so u dont need to change to a diffrent character. The only daily reward for randoms would be 100k exp.
Base Game Dungeon Reward - 5. You get it on completion of dungeon.
DLC Dungeon Reward - 15. You get it on completion of dungeon.
So if u get a base game dungeon in random you will get 10 (15 without opt out) transmutes. If u get DLC then its 25. And yes u can just spam nFG1 for those 5 transmutes all time if doing this after Undaunted Celebration still isnt boring.
With this you can add option to opt out from DLC dungeons.
So you can just solo nFG1 to farm transmutes and u dont need to speedrun in randoms and you can just queue for only DLC and get 15 stones when its done. Of course its not ideal but well... there is no such thing that is always perfect.
Some thoughts:
The reason you always get full reward for random dungeon is simple. You dont get punished for playing a tank. You can just queue 10 dungeons in a row with 1 character and you will get the same reward as the person who is fake tanking on 10 diffrent characters now.
I prefer rewards for completing the dungeon because it adds more freedom. Some ppl prefer doing DLC dungeons and some would rather do only base game. There is still reward for helping others so i think its okay.
Changing how random rewards work make it less punishing when u get a bad group. Right now there is a lot of ppl who leave just because they see a DLC dungeon without even trying. Not long ago i queued with 2 of my friends for vet Cauldron. The 4th player insta left. The thing is the 3 of us have a trifecta in here so there was pretty high chance that he would get it too if he wouldnt leave.
I think this would also encourage real tanks to queue for dungeons with randoms as it wouldnt be too punishing to get a bad group.
I think thats all.
I could write a lot of ideas how to improve some things without destroying anything but its not like anyone would listen to a tank main xD
Also complaining is easier.
I agree with most of this. I will also note that due to my experience using the GF whereas a low CP healer I was out DPSing high CP DDs and I was tossing out hots and orbs. I was not doing high DPS nor was I trying to. When I found my guild and experienced much smoother runs and significantly higher group DPS it seemed clear that it is best to run with guildies.
As a result, I will never queue solo again. My healer and tank only go with guildmates and friends. I also have no problem finding support roles when forming a group which clearly indicates there is not a shortage of support roles or that they are dying.1 -
Dem_kitkats1✭✭✭✭
I agree with most of this. I will also note that due to my experience using the GF whereas a low CP healer I was out DPSing high CP DDs and I was tossing out hots and orbs. I was not doing high DPS nor was I trying to. When I found my guild and experienced much smoother runs and significantly higher group DPS it seemed clear that it is best to run with guildies.
As a result, I will never queue solo again. My healer and tank only go with guildmates and friends. I also have no problem finding support roles when forming a group which clearly indicates there is not a shortage of support roles or that they are dying.
I'm not saying that people don't play support roles anymore, there are some that do (me included). Although, there are a lot less players who chose to. You can see that just by the wait times in ques. On my healer or when my husband plays tank, the dungeon ques pop pretty quickly, usually within the first 10 mins despite there being only half of the number of roles available in comparison to dps. When I switch to dps the wait is usually half an hour or longer. So I am asking why is that so many players chose to play dps over support roles? And much of the consensus is that support play is far less engaging and impactful in normal dungeons. In vet normal dungeons you can still get away from support roles by having a strong dps team. In vet hardmode, players are saying that tanks are appreciated but you still don't really need a healer. Only in hard endgame content, like vet trials, are support roles really needed. And that's only a small percentage of the game content.
Yes, when you que solo you run the risk of being paired with low level people who don't have the right gear or skills, or with people who don't know how to build a proper set up so they do minimal damage. But this thread is not about damage, as it has minimal to do with support roles. It's easy to say that support roles are engaging and impactful when you que with pre-made groups where members can slot out skills and sets to maximize group damage and stats. Even then it sounds like healers are just buff bots with some extra heals on the side just in case. However, for many people getting a group that is organized is not an option. So many dps characters build as if they are playing solo, with lots of resists and self heals with no concession to their damage, so they don't have to rely on anyone else. And in content aside from a couple of vet dlc hardmode dungeons and vet trials this renders support roles completely redundant and unengaging to play.
Edited by Dem_kitkats1 on January 5, 2022 6:03PM2 -
DPS, 50% of the crew - 45 minute wait time
Healer, 25% of the crew - 2 minute wait time
Tank, 25% of the crew - 2 second wait time
what does that tell you about the distribution of roles in the queue?1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »
I agree with most of this. I will also note that due to my experience using the GF whereas a low CP healer I was out DPSing high CP DDs and I was tossing out hots and orbs. I was not doing high DPS nor was I trying to. When I found my guild and experienced much smoother runs and significantly higher group DPS it seemed clear that it is best to run with guildies.
As a result, I will never queue solo again. My healer and tank only go with guildmates and friends. I also have no problem finding support roles when forming a group which clearly indicates there is not a shortage of support roles or that they are dying.
I'm not saying that people don't play support roles anymore, there are some that do (me included). Although, there are a lot less players who chose to. You can see that just by the wait times in ques. On my healer or when my husband plays tank, the dungeon ques pop pretty quickly, usually within the first 10 mins despite there being only half of the number of roles available in comparison to dps. When I switch to dps the wait is usually half an hour or longer. So I am asking why is that so many players chose to play dps over support roles? And much of the consensus is that support play is far less engaging and impactful in normal dungeons. In vet normal dungeons you can still get away from support roles by having a strong dps team. In vet hardmode, players are saying that tanks are appreciated but you still don't really need a healer. Only in hard endgame content, like vet trials, are support roles really needed. And that's only a small percentage of the game content.
Yes, when you que solo you run the risk of being paired with low level people who don't have the right gear or skills, or with people who don't know how to build a proper set up so they do minimal damage. But this thread is not about damage, as it has minimal to do with support roles. It's easy to say that support roles are engaging and impactful when you que with pre-made groups where members can slot out skills and sets to maximize group damage and stats. Even then it sounds like healers are just buff bots with some extra heals on the side just in case. However, for many people getting a group that is organized is not an option. So many dps characters build as if they are playing solo, with lots of resists and self heals with no concession to their damage, so they don't have to rely on anyone else. And in content aside from a couple of vet dlc hardmode dungeons and vet trials this renders support roles completely redundant and unengaging to play.
How do you determine fewer players are choosing support roles? It’s not due to the GF as multiple people have noted tanks prefer to run with people they are familiar with or guild mates and avoid the GF. So the GF is not a good indication of changes and in player behaviors along these lines.0 -
Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »
I agree with most of this. I will also note that due to my experience using the GF whereas a low CP healer I was out DPSing high CP DDs and I was tossing out hots and orbs. I was not doing high DPS nor was I trying to. When I found my guild and experienced much smoother runs and significantly higher group DPS it seemed clear that it is best to run with guildies.
As a result, I will never queue solo again. My healer and tank only go with guildmates and friends. I also have no problem finding support roles when forming a group which clearly indicates there is not a shortage of support roles or that they are dying.
I'm not saying that people don't play support roles anymore, there are some that do (me included). Although, there are a lot less players who chose to. You can see that just by the wait times in ques. On my healer or when my husband plays tank, the dungeon ques pop pretty quickly, usually within the first 10 mins despite there being only half of the number of roles available in comparison to dps. When I switch to dps the wait is usually half an hour or longer. So I am asking why is that so many players chose to play dps over support roles? And much of the consensus is that support play is far less engaging and impactful in normal dungeons. In vet normal dungeons you can still get away from support roles by having a strong dps team. In vet hardmode, players are saying that tanks are appreciated but you still don't really need a healer. Only in hard endgame content, like vet trials, are support roles really needed. And that's only a small percentage of the game content.
Yes, when you que solo you run the risk of being paired with low level people who don't have the right gear or skills, or with people who don't know how to build a proper set up so they do minimal damage. But this thread is not about damage, as it has minimal to do with support roles. It's easy to say that support roles are engaging and impactful when you que with pre-made groups where members can slot out skills and sets to maximize group damage and stats. Even then it sounds like healers are just buff bots with some extra heals on the side just in case. However, for many people getting a group that is organized is not an option. So many dps characters build as if they are playing solo, with lots of resists and self heals with no concession to their damage, so they don't have to rely on anyone else. And in content aside from a couple of vet dlc hardmode dungeons and vet trials this renders support roles completely redundant and unengaging to play.
How do you determine fewer players are choosing support roles? It’s not due to the GF as multiple people have noted tanks prefer to run with people they are familiar with or guild mates and avoid the GF. So the GF is not a good indication of changes and in player behaviors along these lines.
Many people have support alts so that they can fill a gap if needed, that is exactly why I have them, because I was sick of waiting forever to find one to be able to roll out. Just because you are able to find a person in your guild that is willing to roll on one to assist does not mean that they are properly represented in overall distribution. The Dungeon queue is a better overall gauge as it is server wide as opposed to your max guild participants of 2500 over 5 guilds.
If there was truly a healthy number of supports playing relative to DPS you would not have trouble filling vacancies in any setting. Regardless of any excuses people are making on why they are not properly represented there would be one available within a reasonable time, which is not what you're seeing now.Edited by YoureWrongImRight on January 5, 2022 9:04PM4 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »
I agree with most of this. I will also note that due to my experience using the GF whereas a low CP healer I was out DPSing high CP DDs and I was tossing out hots and orbs. I was not doing high DPS nor was I trying to. When I found my guild and experienced much smoother runs and significantly higher group DPS it seemed clear that it is best to run with guildies.
As a result, I will never queue solo again. My healer and tank only go with guildmates and friends. I also have no problem finding support roles when forming a group which clearly indicates there is not a shortage of support roles or that they are dying.
I'm not saying that people don't play support roles anymore, there are some that do (me included). Although, there are a lot less players who chose to. You can see that just by the wait times in ques. On my healer or when my husband plays tank, the dungeon ques pop pretty quickly, usually within the first 10 mins despite there being only half of the number of roles available in comparison to dps. When I switch to dps the wait is usually half an hour or longer. So I am asking why is that so many players chose to play dps over support roles? And much of the consensus is that support play is far less engaging and impactful in normal dungeons. In vet normal dungeons you can still get away from support roles by having a strong dps team. In vet hardmode, players are saying that tanks are appreciated but you still don't really need a healer. Only in hard endgame content, like vet trials, are support roles really needed. And that's only a small percentage of the game content.
Yes, when you que solo you run the risk of being paired with low level people who don't have the right gear or skills, or with people who don't know how to build a proper set up so they do minimal damage. But this thread is not about damage, as it has minimal to do with support roles. It's easy to say that support roles are engaging and impactful when you que with pre-made groups where members can slot out skills and sets to maximize group damage and stats. Even then it sounds like healers are just buff bots with some extra heals on the side just in case. However, for many people getting a group that is organized is not an option. So many dps characters build as if they are playing solo, with lots of resists and self heals with no concession to their damage, so they don't have to rely on anyone else. And in content aside from a couple of vet dlc hardmode dungeons and vet trials this renders support roles completely redundant and unengaging to play.
How do you determine fewer players are choosing support roles? It’s not due to the GF as multiple people have noted tanks prefer to run with people they are familiar with or guild mates and avoid the GF. So the GF is not a good indication of changes and in player behaviors along these lines.
Many people have support alts so that they can fill a gap if needed, that is exactly why I have them, because I was sick of waiting forever to find one to be able to roll out. Just because you are able to find a person in your guild that is willing to roll on one to assist does not mean that they are properly represented in overall distribution. The Dungeon queue is a better overall gauge as it is server wide as opposed to your max guild participants of 2500 over 5 guilds.
If there was truly a healthy number of supports playing relative to DPS you would not have trouble filling vacancies in any setting. Regardless of any excuses people are making on why they are not properly represented there would be one available within a reasonable time, which is not what you're seeing now.
But my question is how did the person I reply to determine there are fewer players that choose to play support roles these days. What goes on via the GF is not relevant to how many players choose to play support roles but rather only speaks to how many refuse to run with random GF groups. That is a separate issue and does not have any way to reflect what the player base is choosing to do overall.
Since support role players refuse to roll the dice on what they will get via the GF and instead run with their guildmates the results of the GF do not reflect if there is a healthy or unhealthy number of support role players. As I stated, and others commented, we tend to refuse to queue solo via the GF due to many poor experiences. Something that rarely happens when we run with our guild or friends.
So if we want to solve the long waits DDs have when they queue solo we need to deal with the root cause or go the easy route that I took.
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Naftal✭✭✭✭✭I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.0 -
I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.Edited by YoureWrongImRight on January 5, 2022 10:12PM5 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.1 -
YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.Edited by YoureWrongImRight on January 5, 2022 11:33PM6 -
omnidoh✭✭✭Entirely agreed.
There is basically no need for self-healing in that capacity when there are sets that will do this for you, in addition to class skills that recover health while doing damage.
The only reason to need a dedicated healer is if self-healing recovery skills aren't sufficient to restore a players entire health pool in 2 seconds or less, or if there are situations where debuffs remove effective healing.
For those situations you would need shields.3 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.
Most healers don't heal that much and probably don't know proper healing rotations if you need really high healing per second. The amount of healing those players do at the moment is irrelevant when you can self heal.
So how much damage should the group be getting all the time? More than most healers can heal or less that can be self healed easily?0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.
Most healers don't heal that much and probably don't know proper healing rotations if you need really high healing per second. The amount of healing those players do at the moment is irrelevant when you can self heal.
So how much damage should the group be getting all the time? More than most healers can heal or less that can be self healed easily?
and in the more challenging content uptime on buffs and debuffs is important on top of providing resources. This is on top of positioning since that is important for many heals.
So while healing seems simple, and is when the content is steamrolling easy, top raid groups are top raid groups in part due to their healer. Even with small group PvP, the healer can make a difference and it is more than just tossing heals.3 -
TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭Yes, it should be viable to build pure tank or pure healer...
HOWEVER, this should not come at the expense of the viability of hybrid builds.
If people want to run 1 tank, 3 dps... 4 dps... 2 dps, 2 full hybrid... 4 hybrids... etc, this should be just as viable as 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS.
Obviously each composition operates on a spectrum of 'safe clear' to 'risky speed clear', which is as it should be. For content where a healer is not required, the issue is the difficulty of the content IMO. A solution to this would be to tune up the damage output of the enemies but reduce their HP, which would increase the need for a healer/support, without significantly slowing the clear.
Forcing the need for 1 healer, 1 tank and 2 dps would result in significantly reduced build diversity, which is arguably ESO's greatest strength.
If you're queueing with randoms, then it makes sense to somewhat fit into the traditional compostion (if queueing tank then at least take a taunt and build semi-tanky, if queueing healer then prio keeping people alive over other tasks). If you're building your group through any means other than Dungeon Finder though, then ideally any composition should be viable, in order to encourage build diversity.
For PvP, balancing healers is difficult without ruining PvE balance. Personally I hate healers in PvP and think they suck the fun out it, so have no issue with them being less viable in that setting... but let's be real, healers are still viable in PvP premades.Edited by TumlinTheJolly on January 6, 2022 1:12AM0 -
YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.
Most healers don't heal that much and probably don't know proper healing rotations if you need really high healing per second. The amount of healing those players do at the moment is irrelevant when you can self heal.
So how much damage should the group be getting all the time? More than most healers can heal or less that can be self healed easily?
and in the more challenging content uptime on buffs and debuffs is important on top of providing resources. This is on top of positioning since that is important for many heals.
So while healing seems simple, and is when the content is steamrolling easy, top raid groups are top raid groups in part due to their healer. Even with small group PvP, the healer can make a difference and it is more than just tossing heals.
The buff uptime is extremely long, like 20 seconds usually, that's only 3 APM to keep it rolling.
Other than that I think we have basically looped back around to the root issue here. We are all acknowledging that they are completely useless other than this "real end game content" which is like 3 vet trials and other than that they are of less value than just swapping a DPS in their place.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.
Most healers don't heal that much and probably don't know proper healing rotations if you need really high healing per second. The amount of healing those players do at the moment is irrelevant when you can self heal.
So how much damage should the group be getting all the time? More than most healers can heal or less that can be self healed easily?
and in the more challenging content uptime on buffs and debuffs is important on top of providing resources. This is on top of positioning since that is important for many heals.
So while healing seems simple, and is when the content is steamrolling easy, top raid groups are top raid groups in part due to their healer. Even with small group PvP, the healer can make a difference and it is more than just tossing heals.
The buff uptime is extremely long, like 20 seconds usually, that's only 3 APM to keep it rolling.
Other than that I think we have basically looped back around to the root issue here. We are all acknowledging that they are completely useless other than this "real end game content" which is like 3 vet trials and other than that they are of less value than just swapping a DPS in their place.
Where did you get 20 seconds from? That does not seem right.
Combat prayer buffs last 8 seconds making for a tighter rotation. That is also not the only skill outside of healing a trial healer will provide. I am also speaking of the challenging raiding in the game and with the good groups, extremely high uptime of the buffs is a requirement.3 -
YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.
Most healers don't heal that much and probably don't know proper healing rotations if you need really high healing per second. The amount of healing those players do at the moment is irrelevant when you can self heal.
So how much damage should the group be getting all the time? More than most healers can heal or less that can be self healed easily?
and in the more challenging content uptime on buffs and debuffs is important on top of providing resources. This is on top of positioning since that is important for many heals.
So while healing seems simple, and is when the content is steamrolling easy, top raid groups are top raid groups in part due to their healer. Even with small group PvP, the healer can make a difference and it is more than just tossing heals.
The buff uptime is extremely long, like 20 seconds usually, that's only 3 APM to keep it rolling.
Other than that I think we have basically looped back around to the root issue here. We are all acknowledging that they are completely useless other than this "real end game content" which is like 3 vet trials and other than that they are of less value than just swapping a DPS in their place.
Where did you get 20 seconds from? That does not seem right.
Combat prayer buffs last 8 seconds making for a tighter rotation. That is also not the only skill outside of healing a trial healer will provide. I am also speaking of the challenging raiding in the game and with the good groups, extremely high uptime of the buffs is a requirement.
So your main function is to drop a combat prayer, which stam dps can just slot camo hunter to gain, as well as major savagery and an extra 3% to their weapon damage for their trouble via passives. Again the main point here is that the role has been diluted because DPS have access to everything you are bringing to the table without you.Edited by YoureWrongImRight on January 6, 2022 3:05AM3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.
Most healers don't heal that much and probably don't know proper healing rotations if you need really high healing per second. The amount of healing those players do at the moment is irrelevant when you can self heal.
So how much damage should the group be getting all the time? More than most healers can heal or less that can be self healed easily?
and in the more challenging content uptime on buffs and debuffs is important on top of providing resources. This is on top of positioning since that is important for many heals.
So while healing seems simple, and is when the content is steamrolling easy, top raid groups are top raid groups in part due to their healer. Even with small group PvP, the healer can make a difference and it is more than just tossing heals.
The buff uptime is extremely long, like 20 seconds usually, that's only 3 APM to keep it rolling.
Other than that I think we have basically looped back around to the root issue here. We are all acknowledging that they are completely useless other than this "real end game content" which is like 3 vet trials and other than that they are of less value than just swapping a DPS in their place.
Where did you get 20 seconds from? That does not seem right.
Combat prayer buffs last 8 seconds making for a tighter rotation. That is also not the only skill outside of healing a trial healer will provide. I am also speaking of the challenging raiding in the game and with the good groups, extremely high uptime of the buffs is a requirement.
So your main function is to drop a combat prayer, which stam dps can just slot camo hunter to gain, as well as major savagery and an extra 3% to their weapon damage for their trouble via passives. Again the main point here is that the role has been diluted because DPS have access to everything you are bringing to the table without you.
Not sure what your point is as I have been very clear I am speaking of serious raiding. As such my comments are correct and the information I have noted is accurate, including the length of buffs. They were also made to add to a comment another player made and their comments were accurate as well.
If you found an inaccuracy in my comments please do bring them up, but I am not interested in discussing aspects of the game that do not apply to what I had said. Just FYI.2 -
YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »YoureWrongImRight wrote: »I don't know how they'd make healers "needed" for dungeons without making it so you need a very good healer or you can't do the content. If the group or at least tank doesn't take very high sustained damage all the time, self heals can handle it. If most 4 man content had super high damage output then the more casual healers and tanks couldn't really do the content at all.
Maybe give better buffs for the group for using resto staff? Release stronger damage buff sets for healers that require you to actually play a healer somehow? Even then healers would just be buffers. I guess the healer role in dungeons could be more of a buffer anyway.
Is this any different than needing a tank for boss encounters? I don't see the difference. You cannot complete it without DPS, why should you be able to complete it without a healer?
They need more enemies putting out more sustained pressure overall, instead of just a few enemies that have 1 shot mechanics and that's all that's threatening. Once DPS are too busy healing themselves to actually be able to deal damage then a healer becomes valuable. If they can just throw one heal on themselves every 10 seconds and it can sustain them then they're not needed.
So how do you propose this is done without balancing the content for only the top 1% healers? If it's balanced around having a casual healer then most groups will still go without one.
I don't get what you mean by these top 1% healers, in ESO it's not exactly a complicated task, the game literally has smart healing where you don't even need to select a target, it selects the target for you, and the rest of the abilities are GTAOE. The point is that if DPS would need to spend 1/2 - 3/4 of the time healing themselves to stay alive rather than dealing out damage, it now becomes more efficient to have a dedicated person performing that function. The issue now is there is no need to have anyone perform that dedicated function, it is more efficient to just try to put out more damage and more damage and more damage. If the incoming pressure is enough that 3 DPS would be wasting too much time with self healing they will opt to get a healer instead.
Most healers don't heal that much and probably don't know proper healing rotations if you need really high healing per second. The amount of healing those players do at the moment is irrelevant when you can self heal.
So how much damage should the group be getting all the time? More than most healers can heal or less that can be self healed easily?
and in the more challenging content uptime on buffs and debuffs is important on top of providing resources. This is on top of positioning since that is important for many heals.
So while healing seems simple, and is when the content is steamrolling easy, top raid groups are top raid groups in part due to their healer. Even with small group PvP, the healer can make a difference and it is more than just tossing heals.
The buff uptime is extremely long, like 20 seconds usually, that's only 3 APM to keep it rolling.
Other than that I think we have basically looped back around to the root issue here. We are all acknowledging that they are completely useless other than this "real end game content" which is like 3 vet trials and other than that they are of less value than just swapping a DPS in their place.
Where did you get 20 seconds from? That does not seem right.
Combat prayer buffs last 8 seconds making for a tighter rotation. That is also not the only skill outside of healing a trial healer will provide. I am also speaking of the challenging raiding in the game and with the good groups, extremely high uptime of the buffs is a requirement.
So your main function is to drop a combat prayer, which stam dps can just slot camo hunter to gain, as well as major savagery and an extra 3% to their weapon damage for their trouble via passives. Again the main point here is that the role has been diluted because DPS have access to everything you are bringing to the table without you.
Not sure what your point is as I have been very clear I am speaking of serious raiding. As such my comments are correct and the information I have noted is accurate, including the length of buffs. They were also made to add to a comment another player made and their comments were accurate as well.
If you found an inaccuracy in my comments please do bring them up, but I am not interested in discussing aspects of the game that do not apply to what I had said. Just FYI.
My apologies, I thought we were all under the understanding here that we are talking about support roles in the game overall, not just 1% of the content. There have been many points brought up here regarding 4 man content, PvP etc as well.
Major Courage buff from Olorime lasts 20 seconds, I'm sure you're aware of this being a serious raider.1
