SUPPORT ROLES ARE DYING

karekiz

This is so not true its silly.

99.9% of the players I randomly pug can't "4 DPS" Stonegarden HM, yet alone Stonegarden or dreadcellar.

Its like saying Fang Lair HM is "easy to pug" because a guy solo'ed it.

YoureWrongImRight

Troodon80 wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

I don't need to go any further down that rabbit hole of entitlement than that in order to counter you, with a single statement: The players DO have more than one character slot!

I'm not sure what your argument is. There is nothing entitled about what I've said. ESO is built on freedom. Some players are arguing for the removal of that freedom. If anyone is entitled... well, it's not the person arguing for freedom of choice. Given the freedom of choice, you are free to not play the way I do and vice versa.

Cryptical wrote: »

So your defense of freedom is unnecessary. If you want to play a dps, build one of those. If you want to play a tank, build one of those.

I'm sure ZOS will be happy to hear that you think the armory system is irrelevant.

I'm not saying a tank should be able to output 50k DPS. I'm saying there's no reason not to use your global cooldowns on damage if it doesn't hurt in any way and you're keeping your buff and debuffs up. You've not proven that wrong, either.

Cryptical wrote: »

A hybrid build should suffer for the lack of focus by being barely adequate at best, not be rewarded with being able to dislodge actual focused builds from their roles.

It does suffer. A tank who has specced towards health and a mundus other than damage but puts on DD gear will not output the same amount as if they were a full spec DD. That assumes the same person playing for an even guage on skill, as a full-spec PvE tank can most definitely output more than some of the players doing 1k DPS. Moot point.

The "freedom of choice" in ESO is just an illusion. You do not have this abundance of viable options that are all good in their own way, you basically have 2 choices, you can be effective or not effective.

They made this even worse recently by having all sets include both weapon and spell damage.

As an example let's look at Alcast builds as this is what a large number of people are following.

Let's say I want to play a magicka necromancer, what does this guy consider to be the top tier load out everyone is working towards.

Kinras + Kjalnar... Bashei & Crushing Wall

Let's say I want to be a stamina DK, what should I work towards

Kinras + Kjalnar... Relequen & Thunderous Volley

Okay... Mag Sorc?

Kinras + Kjalnar... Bashei & Crushing Wall

How about Stamina NB...

Kinras + Kjalnar... Relequen & Thunderous Volley

Not exactly a wealth of diverse load outs. Look across at other peoples build examples and you find that people are all running the same sets and the same skills on every class, everything else is just considered trash.

PvP is slightly better for variety but still not good by any means. Every class is probably picking between 3-5 sets and that's basically it.

ajkb78

In vet content there's still a need. The number of players doing true max difficulty 4 man content is very small compared with the player base. Especially tanks. Even the duo I know is a tank plus 1 strong DD.

But think, does this 0.001% of the player base doing their insanely OP stuff detract from your experience of the game at all? I'd say no, so let them have at it.

Normal is different because it's designed for new players with no CP, so literally whatever mechanics choices the debs make a high CP player will be able to do any role simply because light armour plus a self heal is way more survivability than a no CP level 10 in heavy armour.
And if you think PvP doesn't need healers, you've never been up against a well formed group that uses healers effectively. They're insanely useful (/ frustrating, depending what side you're on...)

drsalvation

the introduction of armory tells us everything we need to know about this game.
You build for only one thing in particular and that's it.
Solo arenas? Make a build for that.
Dungeons? Make a build for that.
PvP? Another build for that.

Tanks are very useless in anything that revolves around solo/pvp, the fact that you'll still get punished for failing a DPS check as a TANK in vateshran says what the true intention of support role is:
Tanks are meat shields, healers are just healers. DPS will do everything else. Hell, even tanks can get one-shot by other enemies if they don't do mechanics, so what's even the point of optimizing a great tank build?

So instead of making support roles fun and useful everywhere else, they just added an armory so you can get rid of your support role and switch to the main role in this game (damage).
I mean, vateshran alone was already an awesome challenge for all sorts of roles, as a DPS you need to handle the adds to stay alive and handle the boss as part of "side-damage", as a tank you need to focus on the boss because you'll never be able to clear the adds, so you're still doing "side-damage" to the boss while focusing on surviving the adds. But that one-shot kill for failing a DPS check just says "I know this is a fun challenge for tanks as well, but screw that, just make a DPS build instead, this is where all our love is going into anyway"

I wouldn't have had much of an issue with this if they had used armories ever since the beginning, at least I'd know that support roles were specific for one purpose alone. But now it seems to me they just gave up on roles a fun and viable way of playing the game, and I wasted 6 years on my main as a tank missing out on all the other content of the game.

But it's not just that...
A good PvP tank and healer will get absolutely [snip] upon by PvP'ers with bad builds who can't kill other players "completely ruining my fun" (as specified by certain popular youtubers who don't even bring a better/fun alternative and instead want you to play just like them... like godzilla, the real one). If they can't kill you, then it's not fun for them, and therefore not fun for you either.

As for me, I hate games where dying is so common and meaningless, I don't like dying (it's the last thing I'll ever do in my whole life), and just respawning with no penalties, which is why I like tanky/bruisser types of characters, but tanks are useless in PvP (they'll still get nuked, and they won't deal any type of damage, and there's no tank skill that gets better with tank builds at all, as any other type of build is just as effective with said skills).

So yeah, I'd say just get completely rid of all sorts of support roles, PvP'ers make excellent builds for survivability and damage, my PvP build works in PvE content as well, and I can solo most dungeons.

So if a tank still gets one-shot by dungeon mechanics and a healer can't heal through said damage because it's an instant kill, would it matter who holds aggro? At this point, tanks are just guidance for parking bosses in tactical locations, again, nothing that really requires a role.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Nogawd

No one should care who does what in a random normal. It's a faceroll, but it seems as if many want to RP in them.

If you want to play a role so bad, do actual hard content.

Troodon80

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

The "freedom of choice" in ESO is just an illusion. You do not have this abundance of viable options that are all good in their own way, you basically have 2 choices, you can be effective or not effective.

They made this even worse recently by having all sets include both weapon and spell damage.

[...]

Not exactly a wealth of diverse load outs. Look across at other peoples build examples and you find that people are all running the same sets and the same skills on every class, everything else is just considered trash.

PvP is slightly better for variety but still not good by any means. Every class is probably picking between 3-5 sets and that's basically it.

I'm just going to snip out all the examples because of the space they take up. The fact is, there is always going to be a meta. Every patch boils down to basically two sets per spec and one or two monster sets, or parts of, and possibly a mythic item, then with healers you have a choice of sustain or buffs and on tanks you have sustain, buffs, and debuffs -- and for reference there are several stamina sets which are viable now, not just the ones you've mentioned, especially towards things like DoT builds, but you already did your research on that... from Alcast's guides.

This patch is no different and nor will next patch, and this patch has actually created more diversity, not less, for those who don't care about the top-most end game meta or best in slot. Of course there is "effective" as in meta, most effective tactics available, and "not effective," but there are various tiers in between that you've just completely disregarded.

In additon, you mention only Kjalnar. This is interesting because if everyone in a raid group ran only that monster set, it would be a net DPS loss, but I'm sure you already know why. Kjalnar is only meta for one person to use in a raid. Not everyone. Also, it seems you haven't mentioned templar on your list. Magicka now has access to Deadly Strikes (prior to last patch, it was a stamina/medium set and magicka users are seeing some pretty decent parses from it). Magicka also have Advancing Yokeda and Tzogvin depending on group composition and class. So no, it most certainly doesn't boil down to just the sets you've mentioned.

Just because you have the gear doesn't mean you can make use of it. I've seen plenty of low-CP new players saying they need to do veteran hard mode this or that trial because Alcast said this is the best in slot gear. They do maybe 30 CPM and 29 of that is light attack spamming. You really think they're making use of those sets? They'd be better off with proc sets. Until they actually "git gud" at the game, those meta and best in slot sets are practically useless to them. They don't need them. Like Alcast himself says... reading those guides is only a fraction of the work. That's also why Alcast usually mentions beginner sets as well, but I see you haven't mentioned those. And if we're looking at end game, you also haven't mentioned those DD support sets like Z'en and Martial Knowledge and Elemental Catalyst? It's also interesting that you only mention DD meta sets in a topic about "supports dying" when in reality supports have an abundance of sets to pick from depending on the group composition, content, and situation, so I'm not sure what your point is, either?

Sets are only a part of what make up the total "choice" in the game and, again, you're making this huge assumption that everyone plays for the same reasons as you and plays in the same way as you in level, skill, content, etc.

Troodon80

drsalvation wrote: »

Tanks are meat shields, healers are just healers. DPS will do everything else. Hell, even tanks can get one-shot by other enemies if they don't do mechanics, so what's even the point of optimizing a great tank build?

You're going to have to define what "meat shield" means and what "just healers" means. I don't think either mean what you think they mean.

drsalvation wrote: »

So yeah, I'd say just get completely rid of all sorts of support roles, PvP'ers make excellent builds for survivability and damage, my PvP build works in PvE content as well, and I can solo most dungeons.

I guess you don't like getting Minor/Major Courage, Major Slayer, Warhorn+Major Force, damage buffs from Spaulder or Encratis, Stagger, convenient sources of Minor Berserk, Minor/Major Breach, Powerful Assault, or sustain from Worm/Hircine, Stone-Caller, or Hollowfang. Your loss, I suppose. While we're eliminating all supports, we can get rid of "support DDs" who run Martial Knowledge, Elemental Catalyst, and Z'en, too, since they're "support sets" and not "true" DPS sets. We need to delete DK as a class, too, since they have Engulfing Flames and Stone Giant/Stagger. Oh, and Necromancer's Colossus. Can't have anything that supports the group, after all. And let's not forget all those nasty, nasty class specific buffs like Templar's Illuminate passive.

Right?

ajkb78

drsalvation wrote: »

the introduction of armory tells us everything we need to know about this game.
You build for only one thing in particular and that's it.
Solo arenas? Make a build for that.
Dungeons? Make a build for that.
PvP? Another build for that.

Tanks are very useless in anything that revolves around solo/pvp, the fact that you'll still get punished for failing a DPS check as a TANK in vateshran says what the true intention of support role is:
Tanks are meat shields, healers are just healers. DPS will do everything else. Hell, even tanks can get one-shot by other enemies if they don't do mechanics, so what's even the point of optimizing a great tank build?

So instead of making support roles fun and useful everywhere else, they just added an armory so you can get rid of your support role and switch to the main role in this game (damage).
I mean, vateshran alone was already an awesome challenge for all sorts of roles, as a DPS you need to handle the adds to stay alive and handle the boss as part of "side-damage", as a tank you need to focus on the boss because you'll never be able to clear the adds, so you're still doing "side-damage" to the boss while focusing on surviving the adds. But that one-shot kill for failing a DPS check just says "I know this is a fun challenge for tanks as well, but screw that, just make a DPS build instead, this is where all our love is going into anyway"

I wouldn't have had much of an issue with this if they had used armories ever since the beginning, at least I'd know that support roles were specific for one purpose alone. But now it seems to me they just gave up on roles a fun and viable way of playing the game, and I wasted 6 years on my main as a tank missing out on all the other content of the game.

But it's not just that...
A good PvP tank and healer will get absolutely [snip] upon by PvP'ers with bad builds who can't kill other players "completely ruining my fun" (as specified by certain popular youtubers who don't even bring a better/fun alternative and instead want you to play just like them... like godzilla, the real one). If they can't kill you, then it's not fun for them, and therefore not fun for you either.

As for me, I hate games where dying is so common and meaningless, I don't like dying (it's the last thing I'll ever do in my whole life), and just respawning with no penalties, which is why I like tanky/bruisser types of characters, but tanks are useless in PvP (they'll still get nuked, and they won't deal any type of damage, and there's no tank skill that gets better with tank builds at all, as any other type of build is just as effective with said skills).

So yeah, I'd say just get completely rid of all sorts of support roles, PvP'ers make excellent builds for survivability and damage, my PvP build works in PvE content as well, and I can solo most dungeons.

So if a tank still gets one-shot by dungeon mechanics and a healer can't heal through said damage because it's an instant kill, would it matter who holds aggro? At this point, tanks are just guidance for parking bosses in tactical locations, again, nothing that really requires a role.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Let's ignore normal difficulty because it's complete story mode, where by design any role can be fulfilled by a level 10 no CP in mixed white armour and weapons with no glyphs, food or potions. Role doesn't matter.

Vet. Roles do matter but they aren't what you think they are. The *group* roles are stay alive, heal damage and do damage. In any solo content you are the group so you have to be able to do all 3 of those things. And you have to buff yourself too. Of course a pure tank build will fail because you can't do the damage. Equally s pure sustain healer build would likely struggle with vet solo arenas. Equally a pure DPS build with no self heals or shields would likely struggle. Contrary to what you believe even DPS mains tweak things for solo arenas - slot a shield, maybe use a spammable with self heal like swallow soul instead of another option.

In dungeons the damage steps up a bit so you need a tank to start soaking it up. Maybe you can get by without, but it makes it a lot more comfortable to have a tank. You also need heals but do you need a dedicated healer? Not really, with the tank soaking up the big hits the damage taken by the DDs should be within their ability to self heal. A healer might provide buffs too, but compare a healer providing say 25% buff to the damage of 2 DDs with just having a 3rd DD. The 3rd DD wins. So in a lot of dungeons, dedicated healers aren't needed. Those 3 DDs can provide buffs too, you might well find a good dungeon team have a DD in master architect or whatever. If you *do* want to take a healer for the few dungeons where the damage is higher than usual, they're likely to be most effective as a hybrid DD with off heals anyway.

In trials it's different because that 25% buff the healer provides instead of buffing 2 DDs buffs 8. So they're worth 200% of a standard DD output just in buffs. Worth having. Also the heals are needed because the DDs can't manage with just self heals any more. And obviously yes you need tanks in trials because of the damage having just ramped up again.

I think what you're getting wrong is thinking that a character has to be defined by their role, rather than choosing the role appropriate for the content and setting themselves up accordingly. My main isn't a tank, or a DD, or a healer: she's a character. She does actbin all those roles though: she can put out 90k DPS (probably should be more but I'm a bit lazy about parsing) in a trial, solo VVH, VMA and some of the soloable dungeons, tank vet dungeons and heal vet content. And she PvPs the best out of any of my characters (even the one I made specially for PvP...) But not all at once - I set her up differently for the group, content and role at hand. That's not just because of Armoury, though it makes it a bit quicker - she did all those things before Armoury existed by changing gear, changing a couple of morphs and changing attributes. But whether working as a tank, DD or whatever she is always the same character.

And by the way, if you want to pass the DPS test in VVH in a pure tank setup (can't think of anything more tedious myself but each to their own...),. you can: just be a sorc tank and use streak. But you don't have to be a pure tank to be robust enough to clear VVH without dying.
.

N00BxV1

How to make support roles more relevant while also toning down overpowered builds? Separate the stats required for damage and healing!

It doesn't make a bit of sense that increasing your damage also increases healing!!!

People should have to choose between damage, healing or defense:
- Want max damage? Then your healing and defense should suck.
- Want max healing? Then your damage and defense should suck.
- Want max defense? Then your damage and healing should suck.

The disrespect for the Trinity lies deep within the core design of this game. And as long as people can have 9001 damage while also having big juicy heals then there will always be a problem...

Dem_kitkats1

ajkb78 wrote: »

I think what you're getting wrong is thinking that a character has to be defined by their role, rather than choosing the role appropriate for the content and setting themselves up accordingly. My main isn't a tank, or a DD, or a healer: she's a character. She does actbin all those roles though: she can put out 90k DPS (probably should be more but I'm a bit lazy about parsing) in a trial, solo VVH, VMA and some of the soloable dungeons, tank vet dungeons and heal vet content. And she PvPs the best out of any of my characters (even the one I made specially for PvP...) But not all at once - I set her up differently for the group, content and role at hand. That's not just because of Armoury, though it makes it a bit quicker - she did all those things before Armoury existed by changing gear, changing a couple of morphs and changing attributes. But whether working as a tank, DD or whatever she is always the same character.

This is highlighting my point exactly. In trying to push this notion that toons shouldn't be defined by role and that hybridization is everything, you're actually squashing gameplay diversity. You're forcing players to play only hybrid DDs as it's the only way to really be effective in all content. You don't have to change much in regards as to whether or not you want to be more tankier, or you want to output more healing or buffs. Just change a couple skills and sets through Armoury and your one DD character can do it all. And once you've mastered 1 class, you only have 5 more to go in which many of them will be implementing the same sets and skills.

Meanwhile players who actually enjoy playing pure support roles or those who want to do something other than DPS for a change of pace cannot. Unless, of course, it's one of the few vet trials that are available. Even then the importance of pure healers is debatable.

I don't understand how making roles important again will diminish freedoms. You'll still be able to do all content, those worried about playing with weak/inexperienced players are already running with guilds/friends so they don't have to and won't even be affected, if you have a good group you can still go for trifecta runs, etc. Instead of 1 character per class you could have multiple, all performing different roles. There would be more diversity in setting up builds, and more variety gameplay which would help add a little more spice to the game.

warabi

NerfSeige wrote: »

I mean, on pve, most healers are soft carried anyway. But yeah no, tank and healing are not dying anytime soon.

Same as pvp, there’s a lot of tanks now (bomb baits and seige removers) and heal bots. I’d argue that support dps (snares, PA, negates) are also increasing.

This sentiment right here is exactly the point of the thread. I'm pretty tired of the ego power creep gives dd and how it further relegates healers into buff bots or out of the role entirely.

EozZoe1989

not that i se.. i think we over reaction over thinking this .. it does not matter as long as you are enjoying the game

Pevey

Support roles are not losing relevance, in my view. It is just that this game is many years old now. Some people have played since the beginning, or close to it. It's only natural that some of the long-time players are very skilled at the game now. This is less noticeable in games that are turn-based or designed more around skill cooldowns. In ESO, it is very noticeable. It is action-oriented, and skill from many years of playing the game makes a really big difference. The fact that a few people can do elite things like solo vet dlc hm dungeons (see some of those on youtube, they are awesome) should not concern anyone or make you think support roles are not relevant. Those are truly amazing feats, on par with record-breaking speed runs of old school games like mario brothers. It takes hours upon hours to develop those skills. For the vast majority of players, tanks and healers are still relevant. There is a small but growing end-game pve community where those roles are less relevant for some content. That is just natural as this skill-based game ages.

Hapexamendios

It's cute you're using the present continuous. Brings on an air of positivity to a bleak topic.

Dem_kitkats1

Pevey wrote: »

Support roles are not losing relevance, in my view. It is just that this game is many years old now. Some people have played since the beginning, or close to it. It's only natural that some of the long-time players are very skilled at the game now. This is less noticeable in games that are turn-based or designed more around skill cooldowns. In ESO, it is very noticeable. It is action-oriented, and skill from many years of playing the game makes a really big difference. The fact that a few people can do elite things like solo vet dlc hm dungeons (see some of those on youtube, they are awesome) should not concern anyone or make you think support roles are not relevant. Those are truly amazing feats, on par with record-breaking speed runs of old school games like mario brothers. It takes hours upon hours to develop those skills. For the vast majority of players, tanks and healers are still relevant. There is a small but growing end-game pve community where those roles are less relevant for some content. That is just natural as this skill-based game ages.

Yes, they are still relevant in the sense that players still play supports, and they are needed for end game content (trials), but how much content is that really? And how much of an impact are those supports making in the content aside from that end game? Tanks are more so relevant, but as others have stated, vet dungeon trifectas can be achieved in group comps that exclude healers. It's even preferred to squeeze out extra dps, rather than to have more healing. If supports are as relevant as players claim, why are there so many issues with players fake queuing?

Also, those who play supports, do it because they enjoy a playstyle and focus that is different than that of a DD. I just think it's sad that it's at the point where they basically have to ask permission to be able to do so.

Mr_Stach

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Yes, they are still relevant in the sense that players still play supports, and they are needed for end game content (trials), but how much content is that really? And how much of an impact are those supports making in the content aside from that end game? Tanks are more so relevant, but as others have stated, vet dungeon trifectas can be achieved in group comps that exclude healers. It's even preferred to squeeze out extra dps, rather than to have more healing. If supports are as relevant as players claim, why are there so many issues with players fake queuing?
.

Fake Queuing is purely a population issue, There are massively more DPS Players than Tank/Healer Players. Some DPS Players don't want to wait their turn in the DPS line so the go Support instead..... Except not really, because they often don't even throw on a taunt or don't heal. Then there's still an issue with underperforming DPS players some people refer to "Fake DPS" that are just hoping to be dragged through the Dungeon.

There's not really an answer to the problem, it's a Community Issue, it's like having noisy neighbors, you can complain about it, but the cops aren't gonna really do anything. Easiest way to deal with it is removing yourself from the equation, make your own group, join a guild, or whatever else. No Wait times, good communication, everyone wins.

Also I would also suggest more DPS players learn how to Heal or Tank in general so if they do "Fake X" at least be good at it.

Agenericname

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Support roles are not losing relevance, in my view. It is just that this game is many years old now. Some people have played since the beginning, or close to it. It's only natural that some of the long-time players are very skilled at the game now. This is less noticeable in games that are turn-based or designed more around skill cooldowns. In ESO, it is very noticeable. It is action-oriented, and skill from many years of playing the game makes a really big difference. The fact that a few people can do elite things like solo vet dlc hm dungeons (see some of those on youtube, they are awesome) should not concern anyone or make you think support roles are not relevant. Those are truly amazing feats, on par with record-breaking speed runs of old school games like mario brothers. It takes hours upon hours to develop those skills. For the vast majority of players, tanks and healers are still relevant. There is a small but growing end-game pve community where those roles are less relevant for some content. That is just natural as this skill-based game ages.

Yes, they are still relevant in the sense that players still play supports, and they are needed for end game content (trials), but how much content is that really? And how much of an impact are those supports making in the content aside from that end game? Tanks are more so relevant, but as others have stated, vet dungeon trifectas can be achieved in group comps that exclude healers. It's even preferred to squeeze out extra dps, rather than to have more healing. If supports are as relevant as players claim, why are there so many issues with players fake queuing?

Also, those who play supports, do it because they enjoy a playstyle and focus that is different than that of a DD. I just think it's sad that it's at the point where they basically have to ask permission to be able to do so.

There are 2 different issues here. Fake queueing, for the most part, happens mostly in normal dungeons. It can happen in vet as well, but its mostly normal. Normal content is meant to be accesible. I'd say that they succeeded there. It is accessible. Accessibility in this case also means less reliance on any other role. I dont think thats going to change. In fact, I think ZOS is doubling down on it. Read the wording of the patch notes for the mythic ring next patch.

The issue we see with fake roles in normals is mostly due to players who could easily do the same content on vet get the same rewards for doing it on normal. So the level 30 NB who just started ESO and doing the dungeon for the first time isnt always paired with players of the same skill level, theyre often paired with high CP players who are vastly overpowered in that content. If we were to watch 4 level 10-15 players trudge through Banished Cells for the first time, they would likely need a healer.

As far as leaving healers out, Im sure it still happens, I just dont see the point. Damage is higher now and with the duration and mix of buffs the supports can provide now, 2 decent DDs can easily reach some pretty high numbers. Ive seen them as high as +100k ST (per DD) in some fights without an invulnerability phase. The buffs themselves and their duration play a huge role in it, and are amazing. We bring a healer on achievement runs nearly 100% of the time.

Kahnak

What you mean to say is:

I don't do organized Veteran PvE content.

The people that ascribe to this idea are the same fake tanks getting one shot by tank mechanics in Vet dungeons; imposing on the rest of the group because they couldn't be bothered to wait 5 minutes for a DPS queue and fresh from the forums where they just read the most recent "DUR, YOU DON'T EVEN NEED SUPPORT ROLES, DUR" thread. Just because someone CAN solo or duo a vet DLC dungeon doesn't mean that is the norm, and doesn't diminish support roles at all. When it comes down to it, most of you simply aren't good enough at the game to do something like that. Considering the giant gulf in terms of player competency between casual players and the top 5% who actually can solo a vet dungeon and the huge casual playerbase, I'll reckon that support roles are going to be just as important as they've always been for most players.

kieso

Good throw the trinity out the window imo.

Mr_Stach

While we're at it. Remove Classes.

Thecompton73

N00BxV1 wrote: »

How to make support roles more relevant while also toning down overpowered builds? Separate the stats required for damage and healing!

It doesn't make a bit of sense that increasing your damage also increases healing!!!

People should have to choose between damage, healing or defense:
- Want max damage? Then your healing and defense should suck.
- Want max healing? Then your damage and defense should suck.
- Want max defense? Then your damage and healing should suck.

The disrespect for the Trinity lies deep within the core design of this game. And as long as people can have 9001 damage while also having big juicy heals then there will always be a problem...

This is something I think would be healthy for PvE and for PvP. However to keep solo play viable I'd like to see a sort of battle spirit system introduced into the grouping mechanic whether it's in PvE or PvP. Then anyone who joins in a group of 4+ is made to actually play the role they have selected.
So If you have healer highlighted in the group tab your damage gets cut by a hefty amount; though I wouldn't nerf their mitigation to heavily cause you don't want healers dropping dead from the slightest bit of damage. As a plus healers get 250 extra recovery on their highest max stat.
If you have DD selected your heals are greatly reduced and perhaps losing a bit more mitigation to make those healers even more important. As a plus grouped DD get 250 extra SD/WD.
If you have tank selected your damage output should be almost zero and any healing done should be limited to self healing. You can't take away a tanks ability to keep themselves alive if the healer goes down. As a plus grouped tanks get 2500 extra health.
Keep in mind this is just a rough outline of an idea and I'm sure it would need further refinement. For example I'm not quite sure how I'd handle 2-3 person groups in PvP. Not subjecting them to this system would make 3 people grouped incredibly strong yet forcing one of them to run as a healer to keep them all alive doesn't seem ideal either. But I do think it would be a great answer to the power of ball groups running 5-6 healers and the rest tanky DD's. Take away the ability of those healers to contribute to the damage when they all drop ults and take away the ability of DD's throwing out crossheals that allow the group to survive getting hit with cold fire+oils+the damage of 20 people at the same time.

Parasaurolophus

Oh, I generally think that the holy trinity system is a rather archaic design. I'm not suggesting changing anything in ESO, but the role system definitely causes a lot of problems. For example, I definitely don't like that because I can't just call my friends or randoms for group content. I can call only those who meet the requirements of the role. I mean, I can't just play fun with my friends. I must necessarily select people according to the principle of role. Yes, players can create multiple alts. Yes, there is an armory system in the game now. But it still creates a lot of inconvenience. For example, because the game is clearly dominated by the meta, where some classes are completely ineffective as others in the support role.
I definitely don't like that the gameplay becomes too narrow within one role. Yes, you can talk about group play, but... I just don't feel it. Each fight has a different role, as if everyone is playing their own separate game. I like the gameplay in pvp when we have to balance between damage and survival. But this is completely absent in pve, where we play the role entirely. This makes the gameplay in PvE too narrow. For example, this could be somehow implemented in solo arenas. But for now, they can be easily completed on a regular damage dealer with one healing skill.

Lailaamell

Isnt this dps scrolls online

Emmagoldman

dem0n1k wrote: »

Healers & Crowd Control support builds are heavily used in PVP. If my PVP guild is playing in Cyrodiil we will always try for at least one dedicated healer & CC support is very handy.

A lot of the builds that are low damage 'tanks' can just be ignored until the squishies are dead.. then can be dog-piled.IMO, true 'tank' builds in Cyrodiil are just for trolling. prove me wrong XD

Completely agree

When I played in an organized gram, my favorite build was my magden than continually chained in players and stacked defile. Literally looping in ranged dps 1 by 1 into onsta nuke.

Problem is that over the years, crap performance has made forming organized pvp groups extremely difficult. When players complain about ball groups, that don't understand that those groups are not only coordinating ults and movement, but often gear set up as well

FeedbackOnly

karekiz wrote: »

This is so not true its silly.

99.9% of the players I randomly pug can't "4 DPS" Stonegarden HM, yet alone Stonegarden or dreadcellar.

Its like saying Fang Lair HM is "easy to pug" because a guy solo'ed it.

Healers don't get invites to dungeon. They problem is a lot bigger than 1 percent