Auztinito wrote: »

I FF14 do the same. You can´t fake que. I wish ESO would do the same.

Cheers

Don't get me wrong, I like FFXIV. And I do like the class/role system. But there's a reason I prefer ESO. The level of freedom you get in ESO to play how you want, use whatever setup you want, etc. is great. I often make references to FFXIV, see some of my previous posts advovating a FFXIV-like Party Finder. It works with the Duty Finder (ESO's version being the Dungeon Finder) and gives players a way to group up for any reason (not just for dungeons) while ignoring zones and instancing.
However, ESO is not FFXIV. Nor should it try to imitate it.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Make at least one boss per dungeon particularly punishing to groups with no tank. Essentially make a tank required for every dungeon.

Or;

Just get rid of the dungeon finder.

Neither option is good. The first is the way ZOS is going with some of its DLC dungeons. Essentially turning tanks into nothing more than damage sponges. You don't affect DDs here, you don't even affect healers because a "good" tank can just be a bit more selfish, slot more heals and shields. That means healers can still be a "fake" role and all you're doing it making harder and less desirable to play the tank role.

Option 2 takes people out of the queue system and people will only queue for dungeons that they actually want to do with little incentive to actually do them at all.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Troodon80 this is why I suggest two metrics for rep - one in game sources (raw numbers), one player derived.

If you make a request or see someone join and there in game rep is high, but their player rep doesn't come close, it's probably a good indication of abuse and you can decide accordingly (speed up the kick, reduce the player derived rep even further.)

The work someone would have to put in to fake the number set would require multiple runs with three other people willing to lie about the other group members' validity. Could it be done? Sure. Would most people (especially those already trying to BS the system by taking fake roles) put in the time and effort? Not likely.

But that's the thing, the way I see it is both can be fudged. I'm going to focus more on the example you gave of being game/server side, and that's the one least likely to get "WTS dungeon commendations" posted to chat.

Let's say for example I fake tank... The Dread Cellar, just for example, 50 times and each of those times I don't get kicked. Does that mean I'm good at the role or does it mean I simply didn't have to fance any consequences? What happens if you queue with friends which means you can't be kicked? Does the system only activate if you're solo queuing?

Troodon80 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Troodon80 this is why I suggest two metrics for rep - one in game sources (raw numbers), one player derived.

If you make a request or see someone join and there in game rep is high, but their player rep doesn't come close, it's probably a good indication of abuse and you can decide accordingly (speed up the kick, reduce the player derived rep even further.)

The work someone would have to put in to fake the number set would require multiple runs with three other people willing to lie about the other group members' validity. Could it be done? Sure. Would most people (especially those already trying to BS the system by taking fake roles) put in the time and effort? Not likely.

But that's the thing, the way I see it is both can be fudged. I'm going to focus more on the example you gave of being game/server side, and that's the one least likely to get "WTS dungeon commendations" posted to chat.

Let's say for example I fake tank... The Dread Cellar, just for example, 50 times and each of those times I don't get kicked. Does that mean I'm good at the role or does it mean I simply didn't have to fance any consequences? What happens if you queue with friends which means you can't be kicked? Does the system only activate if you're solo queuing?

@Troodon80 It could, yes. Would most people, trying to fake it want to go through the trouble? I doubt it.
Plus, bear in mind, each time they queued without their 'shills' they'd potentially face 3 downvotes from the player side metric and a +1 to the kicked metric. They'd have to run 2 to 1 with their friends to gain rep or at least run 1 to 1 just to stay at their current tier. A non-neutral kick (Other than Disconnect, etc) could hold more weight to help counter this. If you had to fake it 2x for every time you got called on it, it would quickly become more work than it's worth, especially since the follow up kick-worthy behavior probably wouldn't take the entire instance to be noticed.) The server itself would be able to tell the difference between a disconnect (resulting in a neutral) and a faked DC (change to Offline/logout). Someone would have to locally DC themselves to avoid it, and an excessive number of 'mysterious DC's' would also be tracked on ZoS's end.

Someone would get a 'vote' cast when kicked (Either Neutral for DC's and such, or Negative) or on completion of the instance (The only way to increase rep.)

As far as WTS rep, I would suspect it would have to be made a violation of the ToS and would have to be reported when seen in chat. I would hope more than a single occurrence of such would lead to either a permanent ban, or at least a permanent ban from using the random GF.

Again, it's a roughed out idea that would provide more info than we currently have. It would be the automated version of "Post X achievement' that was common when the game started. If it improved the results of 4/5 runs, I would say it would still be an overall improvement over the current very random dungeon finder we have now.

Regarding system activation, if someone had a filtered queue up, I would suspect all group members would have to meet the requirements to form up. It would be similar to if someone queued for a DLC and one member did not own it.

You could filter as much or as little as you like. More filters would be bound to produce fewer but more specific results. It would be up to the individual using the filters if the increased time and smaller pool would be worth the end result or if they wanted to throw a broader net and wish for the best. I see your concern about requiring a solo queue to be able to end of instance vote to prevent rep tampering. I still think it would average out unless you're going premade more often than random. A required quick radio checkbox of "why" on a negative vote could also be required, visible only from ZoS's side. That, I suspect, would help to raise any flags of people trying to bypass the rating system.

It wouldn't be flawless and it wouldn't eliminate some instances of 'carried,' but it would have to be better than what we (don't) have now. (ZoS could even test it in the background for a patch and get the metrics before opting to enable it live from the player side ~ PTS without the PTS, in that regard.)

Troodon80 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So if you want to get the DLC dungeons done, especially on Veteran mode, I highly recommend you just create a tank yourself and start playing it until you get good enough you can handle them. Because it's the only reliable solution I've found.

Again, this sort of argument falls under the circular type. The advice of "go make a tank" is all well and good, and I support the idea of people playing more than just one role, but when you do and you get into veteran content and the group DPS is 5k with you doing 50%+ of it, no "real" tank wants to sit through that, especially in DLC content, wasting hours of their lives essentially carrying the group. And not everyone wants to because of pressure, expectations, responsibilities, or any number of other reasons.

Those people who take the advice and make a "real" tank are then put off by the experience and either go back to playing DD, they go find other players to do group content with, thus taking them out of the more general backfill queue system, or they look for ways to optimise their own damage at the cost of actual group support (sets, abilities, etc.) without fully understanding what is gained or lost.

Now you're still at a loss for "real" tanks in the queue. Almost all the recommendations made by DDs lead back to this, because the issue is more nuanced than "just get more real tanks in the queue." As a tank main, my answer is "just get more real DDs who can pull their weight." You can see where this sort of debate doesn't go anywhere. This is also why these discussions always come back to the same basic points.

In my eyes, as a real tank, maybe others will agree or disagree, there are a number of things contributing to the "fake" role issue:

• "Real" tanks leave the queue
  • Because of atrocious DPS and either find friends who can do damage in order to do group content or make a DD, which is another common suggestion for people who main tanks given by DDs; ironically compounding the "fake" role issue
    • Why is damage so low?
      • Contributing factors such as gear choice and CPM, along with CP and experience
    • Can the damage be more balanced so that there is less of a gap between floor and ceiling, without impacting the ceiling in a huge way (i.e. maintain a skill gap where putting in actual effort is rewarded)?
  • "Harassment"
    • Not very common, but comments such as "it's literally meta" can get thrown around if you're not playing exactly the way another player thinks you should be and isn't exclusive to DDs
  • People just don't like the playstyle for X reason
  • Lack of respect in general towards support roles; shown also in the way that DDs don't want to hear the complaints of supports in these sorts of topics, also in the discussion about "bad" vs. "fake" DDs, different standards of expectation for DDs than supports
• DDs are queuing as tank
  • Impatience; in order to get faster queue times
  • Under the assumption that there will be at least three DDs, maybe even four
  • Dungeons will go faster
  • Faster queue times and faster dungeon runs means faster rewards
  • In response to "shortage," because of first point, a compounding issue;
    • The assumption that this is simply transmutation geodes is a perpetuated misconception and a misunderstanding of how the random dungeon finder works
    • I've seen any number of people just farming gear for stickerbook, or gear in general, and are not there because of the random daily dungeon; to endorse removal of rewards for doing random dungeons would also need to see loot drops removed
• New players are queuing as random roles
  1. Not understanding their roles
  2. By default, your role is DD; which would indicate that the potential for a "fake" DD is just as high as a "bad" DD because they've just not realised how the system works
  3. Purely anacdotal, but I've seen any number of healers or DDs with one-hand and shield as well as a taunt, because they're playing as a "paladin" style character, being both tank, healer, and DD, which doesn't really work in this game; the entire dungeon ends up as a taunt fight because the "real" tank and the other player
• Healers feel unneeded or surplus to requirement, even in most veteran DLC
  • DDs feel they can, as such, fill this role with little detriment to the group overall
  • Newer players or, more broadly, players who are unfamiliar with their role are forced to adapt to a lack of external healing; which generally isn't a massive issue (which by itself is also an issue) because of the potency of self-heals and shields
    • Which further makes healers feel unneeded

This is not a comprehensive list, but as you can probably see from some of these points this is not an issue specific to the dungeon finder and are multiple contributing factors that cannot be fixed by "making a tank." Making a tank assumes a couple things:

1. DPS miraculously improves overnight and there's no real gap between floor and ceiling
   • Or that you're happy with terrible DPS
2. That in so making a tank you suddenly have less "fake" tanks

#1 isn't feasible, nor particularly desirable as it removes "skill" from the game, and #2 will happen regardless of how many real tanks are in the queue because some people are simply impatient, inconsiderate, entitiled, or feel that they could otherwise do a better job (often without any malicious intent). I could write a thesis on this, but at the end of the day this is not a dungeon finder issue. It's a human/community issue.

It is only a dungeon finder issue insofar as ESO gives players vastly more freedom than just about any other MMO and does not fit a rigid Trinity style.

There are a few ways to "fix" this freedom... and they're all terrible because they remove the freedom that ESO offers.

Jeremy wrote: »

They really need to separate the DLC content apart from the base game content.

Dividing people among more modes won't see an increase in "real" roles. It just spreads the game population across all the modes and increases queue times.

First: let me admit I skimmed this. So the accuracy of my response might be lacking.

It's true what you say, that you need a competent DPS to do the harder DLC versions as well as a competent tank. But replacing a DPS is a lot easier than replacing a tank. Odds are if you get dealt a fake tank in a difficult DLC dungeon the run is over, where as the odds of finding a decent DPS and managing to replace the one you had are much better. So that's why I said your best bet is to roll a tank if you want to do harder DLC content. There is nothing "circular" about that logic. It's just the best solution currently available.

And I disagree with you that separating DLC content from the base content on the activity finder wouldn't improve the situation. Many "fake tanks" would avoid the DLC dungeons when doing their random dungeons daily if they could. So it would help. And I'd rather sit in a queue longer than waste my time in a hopeless dungeon run that never had a chance from the start.

Jeremy wrote: »

It's true what you say, that you need a competent DPS to do the harder DLC versions as well as a competent tank. But replacing a DPS is a lot easier than replacing a tank.

I never said otherwise so far as replacing DDs go. And I also never said you need competent DPS for anything. The expectation here, simply, is that Fungal Grotto I on normal shouldn't take more than an hour.

Jeremy wrote: »

Odds are if you get dealt a fake tank in a difficult DLC dungeon the run is over, where as the odds of finding a decent DPS and managing to replace the one you had are much better. So that's why I said your best bet is to roll a tank if you want to do harder DLC content. There is nothing "circular" about that logic. It's just the best solution currently available.

I also didn't disagree with rolling a tank. With the armory system you don't even necessarily need to make a new character for it. I encourage, like I said, everyone to try every role.

The logic is circular in that it leads back to the same place: a person who rolls a tank because they want to "help" with the dungeon finder issue of there being too few real tanks will be disillusioned by the current state of DPS in the game -- and I'm not even expecting "competent" DDs via the group finder; I expect somewhere between 5-10k DPS average.

The argument is circular in that it's not actually dealing with the root issue of why "real" tanks are not queuing. It will not encourage them to keep tanking if they take your advice to heart. They will also invariably abandon the queue in favour of pre-made groups or they'll just go back to queuing as a DD or go heal/DD. Leading back to a further lack of real tanks in the queue.

Jeremy wrote: »

And I disagree with you that separating DLC content from the base content on the activity finder wouldn't improve the situation. Many "fake tanks" would avoid the DLC dungeons when doing their random dungeons daily if they could. So it would help. And I'd rather sit in a queue longer than waste my time in a hopeless dungeon run that never had a chance from the start.

Disregarding whether or not a real tank is needed or desirable for base game dungeons on normal. The arguement here is that you're fine with "fake" tanks in the normal queue? Not really fixing anything by making it more convenient, even encouraging, to fake tank? Nor does adding more fake tanks to normal fill the want or desire to see more real tanks in their place? I'm confused by what you're trying to say here.

I don't know why people care if someone comes into a dungeon as a fake tank or healer. As long as all of the bosses die and you don't struggle too hard. If you are pulling aggro from the "tank" just a friendly note asking if they could taunt the boss of you should be sufficient. If you aren't getting enough heals, a friendly note to the healer with something like, I will remember to stand in front of you so I am in your heals or something is enough.

The only think I would say is that if you are going to queue as a tank or healer, make sure you can perform the role because if it causes a lot of wipes and it takes 2 hours to do a 10 minute dungeon, you aren't being respectful of other people's time or your own for that matter.

By the way, easy solution to "fake tank" problem.
Add a passive skill that increases aggro generation from all attacks and abilities.
Restrict queueing into random dungeon finder as a tank only for players with that passive ability.
Premade groups shouldn't have that restriction.

Facefister wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

ive_wonder wrote: »

By the way, easy solution to "fake tank" problem.
Add a passive skill that increases aggro generation from all attacks and abilities.
Restrict queueing into random dungeon finder as a tank only for players with that passive ability.
Premade groups shouldn't have that restriction.

So basically all attacks of the "tank" player will taunt enemies? Wow that'll make tanking so much easier, especially trash packs. As a DD player in the tank role for normal dungeons I won't ever have to bother slotting taunts anymore. I'll take it!

The difficulty of tanking doesn't lie in taunting enemies.

I was mostly talking about normal dungeons, since that's where you see fake tanks the most often.

But even in veteran with an actual tank build, with such a change I can just cast caltrops in the middle of the trash pack. Everything in a 8 meter radius will be instantly snared, major breach applied and all taunted, no reliance on sets. I can cast just 1 skill and then immediately go on the defensive. Then just chain in ranged guys and they'll be instantly taunted as well (since most pull abilities also deal some damage).

Imagine tanking something like vDoM atm. Usually you have worry about taunting 3-4 Aurorans separately (unless you are using AoE taunt sets) or they go clap your teammates with several dawnbreakers in a row.

So yes, this will make tanking easier because it reduces the amount of tank work that need to be done manually.

Raideen wrote: »

Hawco10 wrote: »

There are fake dps.

I still cant get over 35k and I live in the same state that the PCNA server are on, I run a 9900k with an RTX 2080, 32g ram and 100 up down fiber.

The "fake" DPS are mostly people who simply do not understand the convoluted and uncomfortable combat system in ESO.

35k is good don't be so hard on yourself and if its on a 3/6m it's great. I'm sure you already know this but for those who don't you can expect half or less than half DPS on a 3/6m dummy compared to the trial 21m. So in this example, if you are pulling 35k on a 3/6m dummy you will be doing ~75k on a 21m.

As an aside; The trial 21m dummy is going out of fashion with many trial guilds anyway. It shows that you know your character well if you pull high numbers on a 3/6m and that you won't necessarily require assistance at all times. I would never try to clear vMA with my build that does 100k+ on a trial dummy.

As far as fake anything is concerned, I feel that its just plain rude. I don't care if they are a DD that can tank vSS or a healer that can DPS burn through vVH. They know it upsets people but do it anyway. Like leaving chest half full. I have never vote kicked anyone for faking but on my off-mood days I have considered it. The worst offenders are normally named something like xXJumpSpamXx. /jk

ZeroDPS wrote: »

ohhh... huh...

NORMAL NON DLC DUNGEONS:
4 dps is okay (one of them should be exped)

NORMAL DLC DUNGEONS:

1 tank 3 dd if at least tank or 1 dd are exped otherwise full roles

VET NON DLC DUNGEONS:
1 tank 3dd is okay if the tank are real tank
4 dd if at least 3 of them are exped

VET DLC DUNGEONS:
1 tank 3 dd if ALL are exped also it depends on dungeon itself sometimes you MUST have a healer

exped = experienced

advice to new players, just slot one healing skill

thats it folks

I disagree with some of this. An experienced DD can easily fake tank a normal dlc dungeon. A taunt and caltrops help, but heavy armor or sword & shield/ice staff are unnecessary.

MakoRuu wrote: »

I am so incredibly SICK AND TIRED of rolling an end game DLC Dungeon with new players under 600 CP that are FAKE TANKS AND HEALERS. And don't know the mechanics of a dungeon.

Just today, I was finishing up weekly endeavors, and we landed in March of Sacrifices. The Tank was a fake NB, only had around 400 CP, Dual Wielding and using Whirling Blades for everything, no taunt. CONTINUED TO DIE TO TRASH MOBS. Did not engage in conversation in the group chat when people were trying to help them, or called them out on being a fake tank.

We got to the first boss, which is the sisters, and the team wiped over and over again. The others kept saying "WE CAN DO IT, IT'S ONLY NORMAL." Myself, and only one other person over a thousand Champion Ranks.

I was DPS, doing 80% of the group damage (CombatMetrics.)

I finally gave up and just left, which I absolutely hate doing.

We need harsher punishments for false roles if Zos wants to keep collecting money from me. It's getting so bad that the duty finder is an absolute chore to use. You pray and beg for an easy dungeon just to get it over with.

I've been playing since the closed betas, and I'm closing in on 3500 hours on again off again time, and I don't even want to play anymore because of this massive problem.

Then why in Oblivion won't you run the vet dungeons/trials with GUILDIES? You know----aka PPL WHOM YOU EITHER KNOW AND/OR CAN TRUST because they're your guildmates and so somewhat accountable to you as a fellow guild mate?

Exactly what the heck do you mean by "fake tanks and healers" btw? Do you genuinely believe ppl join random groups just to troll you as a player?? I'll never understand what drives the mindset of players like you. Fortunately to date, I've been spared the worst of bad experiences from having this sort of unsporting mindset. Where players verbally abuse you during dungeon/trial runs because you don't meet their perfectionist standards for performance.

Worst vet dungeon run with your player type mentality was over a year ago. Yet I'm still mentally scarred by the encounter to date. It's one thing to verbally berate a player inside the game via chat menu. The solution is to simply block them. But when said vitriolic heckling/abuse continues OUTSIDE of the scope of the game (aka PERSONAL out of character attacks against an individual on likes Discord/social media etc) then you'd better believe that has stampeded over the line into the realm of official stalking and bullying. I quit playing any multi player content for about a month after that.

Seriously, just HTH do you expect players to gain experience without making errors otherwise? Are you even remotely aware that some players may join just for the casual RP experience? And so are perfectly comfortable with a failure state aka are NOT insanely competitively driven to achieve "beating" the content outcomes and/or whatever achievements go with them? SMH

This sarcastic criticism is coming from a casual Solo/lone wolf who is a non competitive PvE mindset player. Who was forced to join guilds just to experience/complete end of game content like you. Not for points, but for the RPG experience. I'm over 900+ CP, with legendary gear/weapons. And not the best strategic/tactical tank/dps team member you'll roll via the RNG system. So while I'm reasonably competent in clearing a good amount of dungeon/trial content, my learning curve is still high for the more advanced/challenging dungeons/trial content. So just imagine having to endure vitriolic tirades from the insanely competitive players like you. Folks like you are the reason why solo minded players like me HATE having to leave solo game play and team up in ESO.

TL DL
Unless you proactively chose your team mates, then you get what you get by opting for random team mates on end of game content. HTH can you complain when you've done nothing to proactively bias said outcome otherwise? The definition of insanity is expecting a different result --- while repeating the same fail state process to ad infinitum....

starkerealm wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Just to clarify, I purposely suggested a thumbs up ONLY because I think thumbs down will add to the toxicity. The idea here is to thank people with whom you've had a good experience, and to motivate people to want to work as a team because they would earn potentially desirable rewards attached to the achievements.

Some mild corroboration, there used to be two additional vote options on these forums, "Disagree," and, "LoL."

I was never here when Disagree was still an option you could click at the bottom of someone's post, but from what I was told it was removed because of players abusing it, and trolling users.

I was around for LoL, and that was also removed because of people using it toxicly to mock players.

Yeah, we can't have nice things, because people abuse them.

People would form grudges against others and just follow them around disagreeing with everything they said just to be petty. So it was pretty stupid.