The Fake Tanks and Healers have gotten so bad, I don't even want to play anymore.

tim77 · December 2021

Actually the queue is quite good at the moment.
I can remember when all of this just started, we had queue times of 60min and longer. Because there were no fake tanks and we had to wait for a tank. And honestly, i can't think of ONE normal dungeon you cant complete with just 2 dd's.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

tim77 wrote: »

Actually the queue is quite good at the moment.
I can remember when all of this just started, we had queue times of 60min and longer. Because there were no fake tanks and we had to wait for a tank. And honestly, i can't think of ONE normal dungeon you cant complete with just 2 dd's.

I honestly think this is the reason ZOS's solution was to just port people to the bosses that speedsters were aggro'ing with the "Joining Encounter in Progress" feature rather than penalizing speeding. The queue times have greatly improved for normal dungeons for DPS.

KaGaOri · December 2021

If we step back and look at all of this, I'd say that it's circular problem:

-> New player comes in game, no sets colected and no experience playing. Game tells them "come try this thing called dungeons" at lvl 10 and they do. They pick DD role since that's the thing most on the nose (game asked them to kill stuff since lvl 1, not to tank / heal) and also predefined option in dungeonfinder when first opened.

-> In any dungeon done at this stage there is no healing, no tanking. They seldomly get to do any damage to anything, since high CP players (often fake tank and / or healer, since these players are the ones in most hurry, having already jumped the queue) rushed and killed everything before they got there (characters are so slow without CP + low stamina means they're lucky if they even see boss from distance, let alone touch it).

-> Since dungeons obviously require only one thing - run through as fast as possible to be close enough to get credit for boss kills, that's the only thing they learned to do. Rotation? What's that? Right DD sets? Why? Go attack stuff? Nah, I rather stand here over to the side and LA with bow once in a while (so boss or adds won't notice me, since there's no healing, or tank getting heavy hitters off me and low levels are squishy).

-> DDs hit lvl 50, then CP 160 and still know nothing about doing damage. They rush bosses and LA from distance with a bow, their DPS is worth pile of bovine dropings. Real tanks and healers (understandably) hate them and don't want to play with random people anymore.

-> Portion of DDs eventually figgure how to bring damage up (or google it), farm sets, practise on dummy, head back in dungeons ... and there is not enough tanks and healers (whaaat?!) and queues are so long. Got to get those transmutes somehow, though, so they go with option A) fake tank / fake heal easy dungeons, running through as fast as possible since it's boooring at their level. Or option B ) - create healer / tank of their own.

-> Player with no experience with playing support role takes newly created tank / healer in dungeons at lvl 10. If tank there's no healing, if healer there's no tanking. They seldomly get to do any healing or (especially) tanking, since high CP players (often fake tank or healer, since these players are the ones in most hurry, having already jumped the queue) rushed and killed everything before they got there (characters are so slow without CP + low stamina means they're lucky if they even see boss from distance, let alone touch it, tanks are double slow in heavy armor).

-> Tanks / healers hit lvl 50, then CP 160 and still know nothing about tanking and healing. When they get into any lvl appropriate content they have very hard time + get all these awful, AWFUL low-damage dealing DDs who stand in red and can't interrupt. Also if tanking, healer is kinda really bad at their job, if healing, tank is kinda bad at theirs.

-> Players don't want to tank / heal anymore (or only for trusted friends). There is not enough tanks / healers to come around. Queues for DDs are so long, that people don't even care if tank / healer (or both) are fake. They are high CP now, can easily solo normal dungeons, so who needs tanks and healers anyway? Or that lvl 10 trying to get credit for their first FG 1 clear? If anything, the lvl 10 should be grateful - getting carried and (if fast enough) getting loot from what group didn't skip (/s).

Majority of people, being people, will reach for the lowest hanging fruit available, I get it. What I don't get is why ZOS doesn't realize this and if they do why aren't they doing anything? The power creap? The fact, that they are rewarding high level players for selfish inconsiderate behavior? That doing low level content on low level character is miserable? That learning to play support roles is so unpleasant / difficult by games design, that majority of player base doesn't bother?

Dear ZOS: Stop rewarding DDs for doing poor damage, stop rewarding tanks for not tanking and healers for not healing. And - most importantly - stop rewarding players for ditching group and waltzing away doing their own thing in group content. Thank you!

Xebov · December 2021

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

The difference, an important difference, is that a 'fake dps' is still slotting dps skills and outputting some dps. A 'fake tank' is not slotting crowd control or a taunt. Big difference you guys are glazing over. You cannot glaze over this.

yea its a diffrence but it doesnt matter
a fake dps will still do no dmg
and a fake tank will still not tank

where is the diffrence ? the intention? yea maybe but the effect is the same

To me there are four main differences, two are objective, the other two are subjective:

- The *alleged* fake dps will spend on average between 10 and 20 mins in the queue where the fake tank/healer will spend on average between no time at all and 45s.
- The fake tank/healers, from the outset, have zero intention of performing they task they queued for.
- Because the fake tank/healers are deliberately engaging in a deceitful practice, in most cases having enough self-awareness to acknowledge this fact at least to themselves, for their own benefit and potentially at the expense of the other prospective group members they experience at least a modicum of mental discomfort; to deal with this discomfort they need to come up with justifications, again at least to themselves; the stronger the criticism the more outlandish they become, to the point that many end up with the 'I am Zenithar's gift to your group' or 'you are all extras in my film' attitude.
- Ultimately, in my own limited experience, fake tanks/healers are significantly more abundant, at least in random normals, than *alleged* fake dps. Probably in the region of 10:1.

While your obervation is mostly right tehre is a catch to that. A fake tank is a DD that effects mostly DDs and some of the Healers, but not real Tanks. Fake DDs however effect Tanks and Healers heavily and other DDs not so much. This leads to less real Tanks and Healers queueing.
Since they added curated drops i ran something between 200 and 300 DLC dungeons on normal. Half of my groups dealth 25k DPS or less with some not even hitting the 20k mark. If i remove my 4k that averages from less than 8k to up to 10k per DD which is next to nothing and some groups ended up as some sort of carry run.

The ultimative problem you are running into is that DDs complain alot about fake roles because they are the ones most impacted. If fake roles wouldnt exist they would complain about long queue times, what they did in the past. The result is that everyone would like real Tanks and Healers to be available in decent supply but is to bussy demanding their issue fixed while completely denying the problems that real tanks/healers have that causes them to not pug at all. That problem is low quality of random DDs and as soon the wording "fake DD" comes into play it gets heavily downplayed without being recognized while expecting support players to magically do something.

I am not downplaying it as such, is just that I don't encounter sub-par dps players as much as I find fake tanks healers, probably because I queue as dps myself.

And as a dps another dps in lieu of a support character doesn't really bring that much to the table for me. It only means that I have to slot self-heals and sources of major/minor breach, factor in sustain and there is going to be a lot more kiting and dodging to achieve the same objective with no significant reduction on the duration of the whole 'experience' because many bosses have unskippable 'phases' anyway.

So, again from my personal perspective fake tanks/healers only bring more work for me, do not really impact the overall duration that much because remember that as opposed to them I have already been queueing for 10-20 minutes, often bring expectations of their own: 'ignore chests/skip/now run/etc etc' because from their no-queue point of view 20 extra seconds is akin to a tooth extraction, and so on and so forth.

To put it as short and simple as possible, fake tanks/healer are more detrimental to my overall experience than 'fake' dds while carrying the extra baggage of engaging in a practice that I personally find objectionable.

A character that can taunt and inflict major/minor breach using a single skill every 15 seconds and another one that can throw combat prayer and a couple of orbs because who doesn't like sustain[*] bring much more - for me - to the dungeon than whatever fake tanks/healers think they bring along with them, with 1/10th of the aggro and the drama.

[*] That's not all support characters can or indeed do, that is just the extent of my expectations.

I fully understand your point. The problem is the last step in a chain of problems. The majority of the community are DDs and they are mostly interested in solving the last step but not in resolving the chain itself. In many cases parts of the chain are even dismissed.

When this situation is discussed you can see that the majority of ideas that come up to tackle the problem would actually hurt tanks and healers even further but players dont think it through and dont care as long as their issue (this issue) is solved.

If you start discussing the other problems in the chain you end up with denial or pure disrespect.

You start talking about bad DDs or "fake" DDs which are a problem for tanks and the reaction is "oh these poor DDs thats mean" noone comes and says "yes this is an actual problem that has to be solved" because ppl are more focused on how the problem should be named than resolve it.
You join discussions about solo arenas and tell ppl that they are an issue for tanks as they have no way of playing them as a tank and the answer is "roll a DD".
You join discussions about "useless" CP points and point out that as a tank you need them in order to dual spec into a DD for non group content and the answer is "roll a DD".
You tell ppl that a veteran overland might be unfair to tank players or that you need extra gear sets as a tank to do non group PvE and the answer is "roll a DD".
You suggest selfish gear to new tank players to make their starting time easier and you get down voted because the gear is selfish and not buffing the group.
You get harassed as tank player for not staying for 10min boss fights or because you refuse to chain every trash mob in, noone cares. Ppl are more bussy talking about that one fake tank that said something mean to them in chat.

This list could go on and on. The same ppl that complain about fake tanks are ones that cry about not enought tanks while denying all the problems tanks have without wanting to put any efford in resolving them.

Franchise408 · December 2021

macsmooth wrote: »

I play tank or healer mostly I don’t really run dd’s through that much as I like to cover at least one of the problem roles properly

My biggest gripe is runners in normal or vet dungeons can’t stand them specially in vet or if I see a quester in either, they run pull all the adds and start the boss fight while I’m burning stamina trying to keep up, once I see a runner I leave and would rather wait the penalty out before trying again for a group. Zos please reduce the penalty time 5 minutes should be fine

What these super runners don’t get that if everyone starts the fights together then the adds or boss will be controlled, debuffed and depending on which tank I’m on group will be buffed too, the dungeon will go smoother and faster than what a runner will get done

What needs to be done is circle zone barriers need to be in place and that do not drop until all adds are dealt with in the area and all members of the group are stood in the proceed circle (circle not near a quest marker) and then the barrier is dropped at that point. Then you all move on to the next bunch of adds or boss with no adds or bosses being able to be skipped! looking at you fungal grotto

Hell make the proceed circle do a group check at each checkpoint for tank to have taunts, one hand and shield/ice staff, healer has multiple heals single/aoe and restro staff, dds have damage weapons and single/aoe/dots damage skills force the weapon types to the roles and yes I am fully aware you can heal without a restro staff!

If you want to solve roles and responsibilities you force the locks into place and maybe then more people will give dlc dungeons a try

If everyone is kitted properly then it will not slow down the dungeon run at all, will not matter if you pug or manually create group everyone is forced into system checks and zone blocks in dungeons

Stop the fake roles and stop the runners campaign!

The bolded would be absolutely awful

macsmooth · December 2021

Franchise408 wrote: »

macsmooth wrote: »

I play tank or healer mostly I don’t really run dd’s through that much as I like to cover at least one of the problem roles properly

My biggest gripe is runners in normal or vet dungeons can’t stand them specially in vet or if I see a quester in either, they run pull all the adds and start the boss fight while I’m burning stamina trying to keep up, once I see a runner I leave and would rather wait the penalty out before trying again for a group. Zos please reduce the penalty time 5 minutes should be fine

What these super runners don’t get that if everyone starts the fights together then the adds or boss will be controlled, debuffed and depending on which tank I’m on group will be buffed too, the dungeon will go smoother and faster than what a runner will get done

What needs to be done is circle zone barriers need to be in place and that do not drop until all adds are dealt with in the area and all members of the group are stood in the proceed circle (circle not near a quest marker) and then the barrier is dropped at that point. Then you all move on to the next bunch of adds or boss with no adds or bosses being able to be skipped! looking at you fungal grotto

Hell make the proceed circle do a group check at each checkpoint for tank to have taunts, one hand and shield/ice staff, healer has multiple heals single/aoe and restro staff, dds have damage weapons and single/aoe/dots damage skills force the weapon types to the roles and yes I am fully aware you can heal without a restro staff!

If you want to solve roles and responsibilities you force the locks into place and maybe then more people will give dlc dungeons a try

If everyone is kitted properly then it will not slow down the dungeon run at all, will not matter if you pug or manually create group everyone is forced into system checks and zone blocks in dungeons

Stop the fake roles and stop the runners campaign!

The bolded would be absolutely awful

I agree it would be awful …. At first but when people start learning then it wouldn’t be plus Zos could implement a big red light on their heads so the team could warn them or the team can kick them and there would be no reason why a automatic kick timer of say 60 seconds isn’t set on them to allow them time to change or the game automatically kicks them anyways with a 30 minute queue bad so doesn’t matter if you bring a friend to stop team kicks the checkpoint timer can reduce each time so by the time you kit the last checkpoint they are automatically kicked

Let’s not forget Ghrashorog can visit dungeons just fine, he just allows the one change at each checkpoint

Edit a second thought
Why not have a dungeon finder select screen a Ghrashorog layout selection for the roles with armour and skills to be used ones in the dungeon, so as soon as you get a dungeon your gear and skills are automatically changed to that layout that has been agreed with by Zos and your role choice

Succuby · December 2021

I already pass vet DLC on 160+with randoms. If people want to learn, he will learn, if he do not want to do anything, he will not do anything.

Give DPS to tanks and problem is solved. Return our procs back !

If i can same solo dunguan on tank as on DD i would not even care.

The same for a lot of olayers, but all we get - tanks get nerfed.

svendf · December 2021

KaGaOri wrote: »

If we step back and look at all of this, I'd say that it's circular problem:

-> New player comes in game, no sets colected and no experience playing. Game tells them "come try this thing called dungeons" at lvl 10 and they do. They pick DD role since that's the thing most on the nose (game asked them to kill stuff since lvl 1, not to tank / heal) and also predefined option in dungeonfinder when first opened.

-> In any dungeon done at this stage there is no healing, no tanking. They seldomly get to do any damage to anything, since high CP players (often fake tank and / or healer, since these players are the ones in most hurry, having already jumped the queue) rushed and killed everything before they got there (characters are so slow without CP + low stamina means they're lucky if they even see boss from distance, let alone touch it).

-> Since dungeons obviously require only one thing - run through as fast as possible to be close enough to get credit for boss kills, that's the only thing they learned to do. Rotation? What's that? Right DD sets? Why? Go attack stuff? Nah, I rather stand here over to the side and LA with bow once in a while (so boss or adds won't notice me, since there's no healing, or tank getting heavy hitters off me and low levels are squishy).

-> DDs hit lvl 50, then CP 160 and still know nothing about doing damage. They rush bosses and LA from distance with a bow, their DPS is worth pile of bovine dropings. Real tanks and healers (understandably) hate them and don't want to play with random people anymore.

-> Portion of DDs eventually figgure how to bring damage up (or google it), farm sets, practise on dummy, head back in dungeons ... and there is not enough tanks and healers (whaaat?!) and queues are so long. Got to get those transmutes somehow, though, so they go with option A) fake tank / fake heal easy dungeons, running through as fast as possible since it's boooring at their level. Or option B ) - create healer / tank of their own.

-> Player with no experience with playing support role takes newly created tank / healer in dungeons at lvl 10. If tank there's no healing, if healer there's no tanking. They seldomly get to do any healing or (especially) tanking, since high CP players (often fake tank or healer, since these players are the ones in most hurry, having already jumped the queue) rushed and killed everything before they got there (characters are so slow without CP + low stamina means they're lucky if they even see boss from distance, let alone touch it, tanks are double slow in heavy armor).

-> Tanks / healers hit lvl 50, then CP 160 and still know nothing about tanking and healing. When they get into any lvl appropriate content they have very hard time + get all these awful, AWFUL low-damage dealing DDs who stand in red and can't interrupt. Also if tanking, healer is kinda really bad at their job, if healing, tank is kinda bad at theirs.

-> Players don't want to tank / heal anymore (or only for trusted friends). There is not enough tanks / healers to come around. Queues for DDs are so long, that people don't even care if tank / healer (or both) are fake. They are high CP now, can easily solo normal dungeons, so who needs tanks and healers anyway? Or that lvl 10 trying to get credit for their first FG 1 clear? If anything, the lvl 10 should be grateful - getting carried and (if fast enough) getting loot from what group didn't skip (/s).

Majority of people, being people, will reach for the lowest hanging fruit available, I get it. What I don't get is why ZOS doesn't realize this and if they do why aren't they doing anything? The power creap? The fact, that they are rewarding high level players for selfish inconsiderate behavior? That doing low level content on low level character is miserable? That learning to play support roles is so unpleasant / difficult by games design, that majority of player base doesn't bother?

Dear ZOS: Stop rewarding DDs for doing poor damage, stop rewarding tanks for not tanking and healers for not healing. And - most importantly - stop rewarding players for ditching group and waltzing away doing their own thing in group content. Thank you!

I can´t agree more. Well written and a very clear picture of, what´s going on.

Cheers

Xebov · December 2021

macsmooth wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

macsmooth wrote: »

I play tank or healer mostly I don’t really run dd’s through that much as I like to cover at least one of the problem roles properly

My biggest gripe is runners in normal or vet dungeons can’t stand them specially in vet or if I see a quester in either, they run pull all the adds and start the boss fight while I’m burning stamina trying to keep up, once I see a runner I leave and would rather wait the penalty out before trying again for a group. Zos please reduce the penalty time 5 minutes should be fine

What these super runners don’t get that if everyone starts the fights together then the adds or boss will be controlled, debuffed and depending on which tank I’m on group will be buffed too, the dungeon will go smoother and faster than what a runner will get done

What needs to be done is circle zone barriers need to be in place and that do not drop until all adds are dealt with in the area and all members of the group are stood in the proceed circle (circle not near a quest marker) and then the barrier is dropped at that point. Then you all move on to the next bunch of adds or boss with no adds or bosses being able to be skipped! looking at you fungal grotto

Hell make the proceed circle do a group check at each checkpoint for tank to have taunts, one hand and shield/ice staff, healer has multiple heals single/aoe and restro staff, dds have damage weapons and single/aoe/dots damage skills force the weapon types to the roles and yes I am fully aware you can heal without a restro staff!

If you want to solve roles and responsibilities you force the locks into place and maybe then more people will give dlc dungeons a try

If everyone is kitted properly then it will not slow down the dungeon run at all, will not matter if you pug or manually create group everyone is forced into system checks and zone blocks in dungeons

Stop the fake roles and stop the runners campaign!

The bolded would be absolutely awful

I agree it would be awful …. At first but when people start learning then it wouldn’t be plus Zos could implement a big red light on their heads so the team could warn them or the team can kick them and there would be no reason why a automatic kick timer of say 60 seconds isn’t set on them to allow them time to change or the game automatically kicks them anyways with a 30 minute queue bad so doesn’t matter if you bring a friend to stop team kicks the checkpoint timer can reduce each time so by the time you kit the last checkpoint they are automatically kicked

Let’s not forget Ghrashorog can visit dungeons just fine, he just allows the one change at each checkpoint

Edit a second thought
Why not have a dungeon finder select screen a Ghrashorog layout selection for the roles with armour and skills to be used ones in the dungeon, so as soon as you get a dungeon your gear and skills are automatically changed to that layout that has been agreed with by Zos and your role choice

The problem is that the idea would, again also target real tanks and healers and reduce their options with the only ppl benefitting being DDs, who ware the ones creating the issue in the first place that this solution is aimed for.
I dont like it having limitations on my tank just because other ppl cause issues.

Succuby · December 2021

If any limitation on tanks i just start kick people or leave - wait another tank for 30 minutes.

Not clewer ideas to make limitation on roles no one plays because it is to much nerfed and weak.

Troodon80 · December 2021

Xebov wrote: »

The problem is that the idea would, again also target real tanks and healers and reduce their options with the only ppl benefitting being DDs, who ware the ones creating the issue in the first place that this solution is aimed for.
I dont like it having limitations on my tank just because other ppl cause issues.

There also comes the question of whether these "new" features/limitations would affect premade groups. And even if they don't impact premade groups, even if there's a check to say "If all these people were in the group, no requirements checked," do the requirements go so far as to track sets?

This following wall of text is purely for the sake of discussion. Food for thought.

What if someone doesn't have a taunt slotted, but uses Tormentor and Stampede (Two-Hander weapon ability) as an AoE taunt (to this day, even some content creators don't know this is a thing)? There are a number of things beyond just "is there a taunt slotted."

The problem with any limitation is that it's exactly that. Now, I don't personally use Tormentor in PvE group content, but I have tried it. Much in the same way I've tried Dark Convergence for easy stacks (much better than Vateshran; larger range, snares, stuns, and does damage). Those sets are "fun" or "interesting" but overall don't provide the group utility that most people expect from a support, and there are much better sets out there for group support. However, now we're onto the subjective "expectation." The sets exist and therefore the game accommodates them.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here. But stating that people must have a taunt slotted to be a tank shows a purely subjective set of standards, based purely on expectation (I covered this earlier, and why a debate on subjective and somewhat arbitrary standards can't be "won"), and, more importantly, it forces people to play in a specific way. Their ideal way. For healers to be required to slot a heal shows an ignorance to just about any heal one might have on a DD (e.g. Vigor on stamina builds makes them a healer?).

This is why I personally believe that if people are going to use the terminology of "fake [role]" it either applies to all three roles based on the same subjective metric of expectation... or not at all. Unless the person is either a mind-reader, very presumptuous, or the offending "fake" has openly admitted that they queued wrong with malicious intent.

But even getting past the semantics of it, whether something is fake or not. Let's drop semantics for a moment. What it's called doesn't really help fix it. Most fixes suggested are things such as:

"Well just put in this requirement, check for taunt/heal/etc." like I also said in the previous post, having it slotted is meaningless if it doesn't get used. Even in other MMOs, being a tank role and not generating enough threat because a DD is doing too much DPS is a thing that can happen.

"Check to make sure it gets used?" Once? Twice? How many times? What arbitrary number are we aiming for? What metric are we basing this on? Per enemy or per encounter? For a healer it's already impossible unless you're going to have some server/client-side blacklist for what heals are or are not checked, and aside from that you don't need to heal if no one is taking any substantial damage. Do shields count towards healing?

And... here's a potent question... do DDs also get held to the same standard? If a tank has to use taunt every X seconds or every X number of times during an encounter, and a healer has to use X heal every X seconds or times, do DDs have to use X damaging abilities every X seconds or times?

But... well... now ZOS is just "forcing" people to play to a specific CPM?

Again, as you so rightly stated previously, many of the things stated or suggested have impacts only on the tanks or healers, but are not realistic and only hurt the role. Not only that, but people expect the same rules not to apply to them as DDs.

DrSlaughtr · December 2021

So here's my observation. May or may not be accurate.

I think most players that are DDs also have at least one support class. So why don't more DDs queue on one of their support classes?

There's nothing worse than being a tank or healer in a group of DDs that aren't able to put out enough damage to clear the content in a reasonable amount of time. So rather than risk it they fake queue on their DD.

The game doesn't scale content to players skill. It scales players to content up to 50. That however doesn't do a thing to help them run gear and rotations that actually take advantage of that.

Also once they hit CP 1, no more scaling. So their damage drops because they aren't getting a baby buff, AND they aren't wearing good gear AND they don't have slotted buffs AND they probably still don't know how to play a DD properly.

Then you have players that are high CP but spend most of their time in other areas of the game, never learning how to spec to clear harder group content.

All that combined, you have a lot of reasons for experienced DDs to fake queue. However, outside normal non dlc dungeons and a few vet non dlc dungeons, it can get pretty dicey to not have a real tank or healer.

Not sure what the solution is. Maybe the level requirements for vet dungeons need to be shifted. If you queue as a DD under CP 160, you shouldn't pop for dlc dungeons. This won't keep people from doing them as you can still travel in with your own group.

Edit: I forgot you have to be 300 to do vet dlc already.

Troodon80 · December 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Not sure what the solution is. Maybe the level requirements for vet dungeons need to be shifted. If you queue as a DD under CP 160, you shouldn't pop for dlc dungeons. This won't keep people from doing them as you can still travel in with your own group.

You already need to be CP300 for veteran DLC dungeons, as far as I am aware. Unfortunately, CP is mostly meaningless as it isn't an indicator of skill or necessarily of time played.

Raideen · December 2021

tim77 wrote: »

Actually the queue is quite good at the moment.
I can remember when all of this just started, we had queue times of 60min and longer. Because there were no fake tanks and we had to wait for a tank. And honestly, i can't think of ONE normal dungeon you cant complete with just 2 dd's.

This was yesterday afternoon.

DrSlaughtr · December 2021

Troodon80 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Not sure what the solution is. Maybe the level requirements for vet dungeons need to be shifted. If you queue as a DD under CP 160, you shouldn't pop for dlc dungeons. This won't keep people from doing them as you can still travel in with your own group.

You already need to be CP300 for veteran DLC dungeons, as far as I am aware. Unfortunately, CP is mostly meaningless as it isn't an indicator of skill or necessarily of time played.

Dude you're totally right. I completely forgot about that.

Either way, relying on a self policing system where 3 players can boot a DD they feel isn't performing well isn't a good solution either.

Franchise408 · December 2021

macsmooth wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

macsmooth wrote: »

I play tank or healer mostly I don’t really run dd’s through that much as I like to cover at least one of the problem roles properly

My biggest gripe is runners in normal or vet dungeons can’t stand them specially in vet or if I see a quester in either, they run pull all the adds and start the boss fight while I’m burning stamina trying to keep up, once I see a runner I leave and would rather wait the penalty out before trying again for a group. Zos please reduce the penalty time 5 minutes should be fine

What these super runners don’t get that if everyone starts the fights together then the adds or boss will be controlled, debuffed and depending on which tank I’m on group will be buffed too, the dungeon will go smoother and faster than what a runner will get done

What needs to be done is circle zone barriers need to be in place and that do not drop until all adds are dealt with in the area and all members of the group are stood in the proceed circle (circle not near a quest marker) and then the barrier is dropped at that point. Then you all move on to the next bunch of adds or boss with no adds or bosses being able to be skipped! looking at you fungal grotto

Hell make the proceed circle do a group check at each checkpoint for tank to have taunts, one hand and shield/ice staff, healer has multiple heals single/aoe and restro staff, dds have damage weapons and single/aoe/dots damage skills force the weapon types to the roles and yes I am fully aware you can heal without a restro staff!

If you want to solve roles and responsibilities you force the locks into place and maybe then more people will give dlc dungeons a try

If everyone is kitted properly then it will not slow down the dungeon run at all, will not matter if you pug or manually create group everyone is forced into system checks and zone blocks in dungeons

Stop the fake roles and stop the runners campaign!

The bolded would be absolutely awful

I agree it would be awful …. At first but when people start learning then it wouldn’t be plus Zos could implement a big red light on their heads so the team could warn them or the team can kick them and there would be no reason why a automatic kick timer of say 60 seconds isn’t set on them to allow them time to change or the game automatically kicks them anyways with a 30 minute queue bad so doesn’t matter if you bring a friend to stop team kicks the checkpoint timer can reduce each time so by the time you kit the last checkpoint they are automatically kicked

Let’s not forget Ghrashorog can visit dungeons just fine, he just allows the one change at each checkpoint

Edit a second thought
Why not have a dungeon finder select screen a Ghrashorog layout selection for the roles with armour and skills to be used ones in the dungeon, so as soon as you get a dungeon your gear and skills are automatically changed to that layout that has been agreed with by Zos and your role choice

It is awful because it dictates that everyone must play the same way.

1. My main tank - which is a proper tank, not a fake - doesn't use a destro staff. I back bar a resto staff.
2. My main tank slots only a 1 bar taunt. I use Inner Rage on my front bar, and no other taunt.
3. I have made tank builds that can hold and maintain aggro without a single taunt slotted on either bar.

If the game is going to start dictating builds, then you might as well just remove classes, races, and every form of character building from the game. You just select pre-made "tank", "dps", and "healer" characters that the game has auto built for you.

Dojohoda · December 2021

I have continued to use my tank to expedite the group finder for others. It's usually instant for me. I queue vet non-dlc and normal dlc. I usually run the dungeons more than once and sometimes I run a nBDV even though my sticker book is full. People are still farming the BDV weapons.

I have made some mistakes as a tank; my tanking experience consists of the past week or two of tanking every day.

Being typically a DD, I am mostly forgiving of their mistakes because I have been in their shoes. I suppose the biggest puzzle to me is why do players aggro a boss in a vet dungeon.

On a side note, I am not forgiving if players skip a mob that I have aggro'ed. I leave the group if they don't return to kill the mob. I queue for group play and, as a tank, I rely on the DD's to kill what I aggro just like they rely on me to keep the worse damage and bosses off of them. As far as I am concerned if they leave their tank behind to die, they deserve a fake tank.

Troodon80 · December 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Either way, relying on a self policing system where 3 players can boot a DD they feel isn't performing well isn't a good solution either.

Which is the problem with any self-policing/moderating system, regardless of role.

But it's better than ZOS specifically placing standards on people. Unless the standards work like other MMOs where a role is assigned by weapon or item type, e.g. certain weapons or items are only equippable by certain roles and those weapons or items force the role, in which case DPS is also affected here. ESO isn't like those other MMOs, and I certainly don't propose it should be, but if it did do that then we take out the freedom that ESO is so well-known and would force people to place a specific way.

If you want specific standards, as I've also said in other topics, and as others have also said, then you make your own group with the standards you want.

macsmooth · December 2021

Franchise408 wrote: »

macsmooth wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

macsmooth wrote: »

I play tank or healer mostly I don’t really run dd’s through that much as I like to cover at least one of the problem roles properly

My biggest gripe is runners in normal or vet dungeons can’t stand them specially in vet or if I see a quester in either, they run pull all the adds and start the boss fight while I’m burning stamina trying to keep up, once I see a runner I leave and would rather wait the penalty out before trying again for a group. Zos please reduce the penalty time 5 minutes should be fine

What these super runners don’t get that if everyone starts the fights together then the adds or boss will be controlled, debuffed and depending on which tank I’m on group will be buffed too, the dungeon will go smoother and faster than what a runner will get done

What needs to be done is circle zone barriers need to be in place and that do not drop until all adds are dealt with in the area and all members of the group are stood in the proceed circle (circle not near a quest marker) and then the barrier is dropped at that point. Then you all move on to the next bunch of adds or boss with no adds or bosses being able to be skipped! looking at you fungal grotto

Hell make the proceed circle do a group check at each checkpoint for tank to have taunts, one hand and shield/ice staff, healer has multiple heals single/aoe and restro staff, dds have damage weapons and single/aoe/dots damage skills force the weapon types to the roles and yes I am fully aware you can heal without a restro staff!

If you want to solve roles and responsibilities you force the locks into place and maybe then more people will give dlc dungeons a try

If everyone is kitted properly then it will not slow down the dungeon run at all, will not matter if you pug or manually create group everyone is forced into system checks and zone blocks in dungeons

Stop the fake roles and stop the runners campaign!

The bolded would be absolutely awful

I agree it would be awful …. At first but when people start learning then it wouldn’t be plus Zos could implement a big red light on their heads so the team could warn them or the team can kick them and there would be no reason why a automatic kick timer of say 60 seconds isn’t set on them to allow them time to change or the game automatically kicks them anyways with a 30 minute queue bad so doesn’t matter if you bring a friend to stop team kicks the checkpoint timer can reduce each time so by the time you kit the last checkpoint they are automatically kicked

Let’s not forget Ghrashorog can visit dungeons just fine, he just allows the one change at each checkpoint

Edit a second thought
Why not have a dungeon finder select screen a Ghrashorog layout selection for the roles with armour and skills to be used ones in the dungeon, so as soon as you get a dungeon your gear and skills are automatically changed to that layout that has been agreed with by Zos and your role choice

It is awful because it dictates that everyone must play the same way.

1. My main tank - which is a proper tank, not a fake - doesn't use a destro staff. I back bar a resto staff.
2. My main tank slots only a 1 bar taunt. I use Inner Rage on my front bar, and no other taunt.
3. I have made tank builds that can hold and maintain aggro without a single taunt slotted on either bar.

If the game is going to start dictating builds, then you might as well just remove classes, races, and every form of character building from the game. You just select pre-made "tank", "dps", and "healer" characters that the game has auto built for you.

Sorry for my delay as I’ve been busy

I see where the problem is here

1. My main tank - which is a proper tank, not a fake - doesn't use a destro staff. I back bar a resto staff.

I never said “AND” I said “/“

To Indicate Or
Often, when a slash is used in a formal or informal text, it is meant to indicate the word or. The examples below illustrate this meaning of the forward slash:

When leaving the classroom, the teacher noticed that a student had left his/her backpack.

2. My main tank slots only a 1 bar taunt. I use Inner Rage on my front bar, and no other taunt.

I will except this as my fault for not proofreading the full text I wrote, I forgot to bracket the S it should have been “taunt(s)”

3. I have made tank builds that can hold and maintain aggro without a single taunt slotted on either bar.

I think I have answered this with the above corrections in number 2

Sorry for the confusion on what I wrote

The3sFinest · December 2021

They should lock skills and your equipped gear when you enter a dungeon. That way they can require you to equip a taunt and/or a sword and shield if you want to fake the tank roll. I am more annoyed by fake tanks than healers, because at least some fake healers have heals. All tanks are running all over the place, the boss is running out of mine and everyone else's aoes, this really slows down fights.

tmbrinks · December 2021

The3sFinest wrote: »

They should lock skills and your equipped gear when you enter a dungeon. That way they can require you to equip a taunt and/or a sword and shield if you want to fake the tank roll. I am more annoyed by fake tanks than healers, because at least some fake healers have heals. All tanks are running all over the place, the boss is running out of mine and everyone else's aoes, this really slows down fights.

So, the healer, while waiting for the queue to pop and is out running in overland doing content in a DPS setup now can't swap gear to be a healer?

Edit: Ice staves are viable for tanking as well. Which taunt? melee? range? destructive (ice) reach?

For a game that lets people "play how they want", we sure have a lot of people who don't want people to play how they want...

Jeremy · December 2021

The3sFinest wrote: »

They should lock skills and your equipped gear when you enter a dungeon. That way they can require you to equip a taunt and/or a sword and shield if you want to fake the tank roll. I am more annoyed by fake tanks than healers, because at least some fake healers have heals. All tanks are running all over the place, the boss is running out of mine and everyone else's aoes, this really slows down fights.

Even if you did that, they would likely just put a taunt on their bar then proceed to focus on doing damage. So this wouldn't be a solution.

James-Wayne · December 2021

Oznog666 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

As a dedicated tank for awhile now it's more annoying getting fake DPS... Yes I'm talking about you players with SnB as DPS, it isn't a thing....

But hey play how you want right, that's the ESO way.

Fake DD's? Or maybe just new to ESO with no idea about how to do damage or about the correct equipment? And for this only ZOS is to blame, they are leaving newcomers completely alone. Without watching YT videos or checking sites like eso-hub you don't learn anything about the role and behaviour as DD / T / H. Anybody can remember the times when computer games came with a story book, a manual and a real tutorial?

Personally I wouldn't say 800CP is a new player but then again I've seen 1500CP do less damage then my tank bashing so you could be right.

BlackKnight556 · December 2021

Gonna add my 2 cents to the pile. Honestly, I think the situation would be bettered quite a bit if you could earn the rewards from a daily dungeon by just soloing the dungeon yourself. I think a lot of players just want to get the dungeon and get it over with ASAP to get the rewards on that character and I know sitting in queue as a DPS is no fun at all. It's even more of a pain when I know I can solo any of the base game dungeons with ease. The DLC dungeons are a whole different ballpark though.

Vulkunne · December 2021

Sigh. I feel yo pain playa.

I think punishment is perhaps the wrong way to approach this.

Here's what I would suggest. Setup like a ratings system for at least each account (or character). And then, because its personal info, give each player the ability to opt-out. Rate each run 1-5 Crowns (Stars). And then give them a special rating for finishing the run. So we can see who has consistently demonstrated they are into finishing vs dropping out and looking for carries.

So once that's done, you now have two types of players and that will tell us all we need to know. This system can be setup to be discrete yet provide the public with some basic info to go on without being too intrusive. Yet, remember the player could still opt out, and we will know that they have intentionally decided not to share with us.

At least this way, you get some idea who you are working with.

MakoRuu · December 2021

I can't believe this thread is still going and I'm getting notifications for it.

rexagamemnon · December 2021

Vet dungeons yes this is an issue, in normal dungeons this is a non-issue

Auztinito · December 2021

The far most simplest way of resolving “fake” roles is to literally nuke player power creep. This goes for normal dungeons, as well. They need to make it impossible to hit high enough dps that allows players to skip mechanics/phases. They need to force players to actually fight the bosses. This would solve multiple issues.

Players that want to run the story in dungeons will need to be waited on because they’re vital part of the dungeon team.

It’ll be vital to have actual tanks and healers to deal with bosses and mechanics.

However, if it’s going to be something ZOS doesn’t want to fix then they may as well remove roles from all dungeons and allow players to play however they want whether they’re support or glass cannon.

YstradClud · December 2021

Well I have been DPS in normal dungeons for years and almost always top damage but I made a heals build since we got the armoury system and have been getting instant queues as a healer.

I wouldn't consider myself a fake healer as I have all the right gear, abilities and points but I am inexperienced at healing. I figure normal dungeons would be the best place to get good and I just healed my first DLC dungeon today with only one wipe where the DPS and tank stood in the bad.

MakoRuu · December 2021

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Vet dungeons yes this is an issue, in normal dungeons this is a non-issue

It's an issue in every dungeon, not just vet.

There are still new players that are below level 50, and have no champion ranks, no crafting skills, no good gear.

Not everyone who plays ESO can solo every base dungeon.

Just today, I was doing a random on my low level magcro, even with 1300 CP and decent training gear, our tank was only around 300CP and had no idea what to do. He was a magblade with dual destro staves and got killed like four times pulling the Dremora in City of Ash I. (The one at the top of the stairs, I forget his name. The fire one.)

I attempted to help him in Group Chat, but he literally never responded the entire time. Then at the end, said gg and left.