Overtaunting

ixthUA · December 2021

Today in normal DLC dungeon one player said i should not be using more than 1 taunt every 10 sec, or bosses will attack other players. I've never seen bosses to switch to players instead of me, except for some bosses that have untauntable stages. I googled and only found a 2015 thread about it, no more recent threads. Does it exist, can a tank mess up aggro by taunting too often?

Jaxious79 · December 2021

It's 3 taughts in 15 seconds. The boss will become immune to taunts for 15 seconds.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-tanking-beginner-guide/

tomofhyrule · December 2021

It's when more than one person taunts too quickly in succession.

If the tank has aggro, everything's fine. There's no benefit to taunting several times in a row (unless the enemy drops taunt, which some mechanics/bugs do), but there's really no drawback either so you don't need to worry about it.

The problem is if there's a second tank (or DD who doesn't realize that sword-and-board, inner fire, or frost staves taunt) who steals aggro. If one tank taunts the boss and then the other taunts the boss off of them, the boss will switch aggro. If the first tank taunts the boss again within the 12-15 second window, the boss will have been taunted a third time and will end up overtaunted and immune to taunt for 15 seconds. An overtaunted boss will just target people randomly.

This is why it's really rude for a second tank to taunt a boss off of someone without warning them, since that can cause the boss to frenzy and wipe the group. Accidents happen, sure, but then the other tank needs to say they have it so the first tank knows not to taunt until the overtaunt window wears off. This is also why the Sellistrix fight is a pain in Arx, since her mechanic of 'drop taunt' is actually programmed as having taunt stolen, so a tank tanking normally can easily overtaunt it because of the mechanic.

ixthUA · December 2021

Jaxious79 wrote: »

It's 3 taughts in 15 seconds. The boss will become immune to taunts for 15 seconds.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-tanking-beginner-guide/

It is probably not allowed to copy text from that website, but part there about overtaunting contradicts itself several times. Also i did a test today in dungeon and was not able to replicate overtaunt by using many taunts in a row.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

It's when more than one person taunts too quickly in succession.

If the tank has aggro, everything's fine. There's no benefit to taunting several times in a row (unless the enemy drops taunt, which some mechanics/bugs do), but there's really no drawback either so you don't need to worry about it.

The problem is if there's a second tank (or DD who doesn't realize that sword-and-board, inner fire, or frost staves taunt) who steals aggro. If one tank taunts the boss and then the other taunts the boss off of them, the boss will switch aggro. If the first tank taunts the boss again within the 12-15 second window, the boss will have been taunted a third time and will end up overtaunted and immune to taunt for 15 seconds. An overtaunted boss will just target people randomly.

This is why it's really rude for a second tank to taunt a boss off of someone without warning them, since that can cause the boss to frenzy and wipe the group. Accidents happen, sure, but then the other tank needs to say they have it so the first tank knows not to taunt until the overtaunt window wears off. This is also why the Sellistrix fight is a pain in Arx, since her mechanic of 'drop taunt' is actually programmed as having taunt stolen, so a tank tanking normally can easily overtaunt it because of the mechanic.

Thanks for clarification. It's what i observed by playing the game and what this guide says:

https://youtu.be/KjuZnYhBAL4?t=543

VaranisArano · December 2021

Jaxious79 wrote: »

It's 3 taughts in 15 seconds. The boss will become immune to taunts for 15 seconds.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-tanking-beginner-guide/

That's not quite correct, as Alcast goes on to explain.

"In ESO an overtaunt happens when an enemy receives a 3rd taunt within 15 seconds. This can happen between multiple tanks."

One player won't overtaunt. You can spam your taunt as much as you want and you won't lose aggro on the boss. That's been tested by players, and should be replicatable: grab a friend, find a boss, and you spam pierce armor or another taunt while your friend kills the boss. You shouldn't ever lose aggro.

Two players taunting the same target will cause overtaunt. Tank A taunts, then Tank B taunts, and the third taunt within 15 seconds is going to cause the boss to shed aggro in overtaunt.

That is why my tank tells the DDs who taunt the boss "You taunt it, you tank it."

ssewallb14_ESO · December 2021

I think the confusion originates from the first few years of the game where 1 tank actually could overtaunt an enemy by re-taunting too frequently. This was changed years ago, but sometimes habits die hard, like pugs tanking Winterborn at the door...

JavaRen · December 2021

Almost guaranteed that when someone complains about overtaunt they were just nailed by a taunt ignoring mechanic they don't understand, so they need to "teach the stupid tank" how to do their job. This will be right before they blame the healer for letting them die to a one shot.

Fennwitty · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

Today in normal DLC dungeon one player said i should not be using more than 1 taunt every 10 sec, or bosses will attack other players. I've never seen bosses to switch to players instead of me, except for some bosses that have untauntable stages. I googled and only found a 2015 thread about it, no more recent threads. Does it exist, can a tank mess up aggro by taunting too often?

Many/most Bosses will have one or two attacks which target players regardless of taunt. They have attacks which intentionally target a random party member and ignore taunt, to 'keep things lively'.

Commonly if someone gets too far away, they attack that player. Some are completely random, the boss just turns around every few seconds to bean someone behind them even while they're still taunted.

It's a matter of whether they focus on those players or not with their 'normal' attacks.

Nanfoodle · December 2021

Never play an ace when a two will do. If you play that way. This won't be a problem.

ixthUA · December 2021

Today i got into another dungeon group with a DD who was using taunt. Bosses would enrage and attack random party members, ignoring taunts.

VaranisArano · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

Today i got into another dungeon group with a DD who was using taunt. Bosses would enrage and attack random party members, ignoring taunts.

Yeah, that's always "fun."

Once the boss has been taunted by two different players and then taunted again, it's off the leash and you get that random attack behavior.

Like I said above, my usual approach is to explain to the player who pulled it first that they are taunting, please stop.

Most of the time, it's been a newbie DD who doesn't want aggro, and they are just happy to know about it so they can stop getting the boss in their face. That happened a lot before ZOS changed the Ice Staff heavy attack taunt. Though the Sword&Board DD spamming his Pierce Armor did throw me for a loop. I can only assume he thought maybe he'd queued as tank instead of me, since this was back when queuing for multiple roles was a thing.

Otherwise, "you taunt it, you tank it," and I disavow all responsibility for what happens if someone else is interfering with my ability to hold aggro on the boss.

Djennku · December 2021

There's only one boss in the entire game that overtaunting affects, and that is the Mantikora In Sanctum Ophidia. Anything else is either an intended mechanic (ie. Selestrix in Arx Cronium) or someone else in the party used a taunt on the boss.

ancientgamedev · December 2021

There are some DDs out there that run 1H+Shield. The 1H skill line has taunting side effects, and that's where I've found myself frustrated while tanking. So far, my experience has been in random groups and the 1H DD is a high level and high DPS player, so it's just annoying.

Puncture: Thrust your weapon with disciplined precision at an enemy, dealing 1161 Physical Damage and taunting them to attack you for 15 seconds.

Mushroomancer · December 2021

ancientgamedev wrote: »

There are some DDs out there that run 1H+Shield. The 1H skill line has taunting side effects, and that's where I've found myself frustrated while tanking. So far, my experience has been in random groups and the 1H DD is a high level and high DPS player, so it's just annoying.

Puncture: Thrust your weapon with disciplined precision at an enemy, dealing 1161 Physical Damage and taunting them to attack you for 15 seconds.

I have legit never seen a single, somewhat decent DD using 1H and Shield. Plus I'd think if they were to use it, they would probably realize their "spammable" is taunting enemies.
I would think more likely than that is probably people accidentally taunting with Frost Clench, but even then I have seen that maybe twice since they changed it.

Amottica · December 2021

I expect someone has mentioned this, but over taunt requires more than one source of taunt for it to be an issue. One tank taunting every second without a second source for a taunt does not bring up they debuff for over taunt. There is one instance where there seems to be a mysterious taunt that comes from nowhere, the final boss Arx Corinium.

So taunting too much is only an issue with fights where tanks need to swap and swap back soon afterwards and Arx Corinium as far as the content I have experienced. Ofc, WBs with multiple players taunting will bring about over-taunt. With the exception of Arx Corinium, I think the source of the taunt that initiated the over taunt will hold agro no matter what until the debuff drops or that player character dies.

BTW, I did 26 taunts on a dummy over the course of 30 seconds and the debuff for over taunt never appeared.

starkerealm · December 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jaxious79 wrote: »

It's 3 taughts in 15 seconds. The boss will become immune to taunts for 15 seconds.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-tanking-beginner-guide/

That's not quite correct, as Alcast goes on to explain.

"In ESO an overtaunt happens when an enemy receives a 3rd taunt within 15 seconds. This can happen between multiple tanks."

One player won't overtaunt. You can spam your taunt as much as you want and you won't lose aggro on the boss. That's been tested by players, and should be replicatable: grab a friend, find a boss, and you spam pierce armor or another taunt while your friend kills the boss. You shouldn't ever lose aggro.

Two players taunting the same target will cause overtaunt. Tank A taunts, then Tank B taunts, and the third taunt within 15 seconds is going to cause the boss to shed aggro in overtaunt.

That is why my tank tells the DDs who taunt the boss "You taunt it, you tank it."

Yeah, this is confusing for players who don't tank, or are learning, but this really a trial mechanic.

The taunt immunity effect does not cause the boss to drop taunt. It is still taunted. However, if the off-tank accidentally taunts the boss and triggers that immunity, they have it for the duration of that taunt, then the main tank can pull it back onto them. If both tanks are drawing out their taunts, then it's possible for the main tank to recover the taunt immediately after an accident. If the maintank has been spamming taunt (I'm guilty of this), it's quite possible that they won't be able to get the boss back.

On the other hand, a tank can deliberately trigger overtaunt to prevent the other tank from accidentally taunting the boss (provided the off-tank doesn't land their taunt on the third second of a taunt.) This can be useful to manage aggro in some novel trial strategies. Or situations where the off-tank needs to pull trash off the boss using inner fire, and the main tank wants to lock down the boss to protect the off-tank (and DPS) from an accidental taunt.

starkerealm · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

I expect someone has mentioned this, but over taunt requires more than one source of taunt for it to be an issue. One tank taunting every second without a second source for a taunt does not bring up they debuff for over taunt. There is one instance where there seems to be a mysterious taunt that comes from nowhere, the final boss Arx Corinium.

So taunting too much is only an issue with fights where tanks need to swap and swap back soon afterwards and Arx Corinium as far as the content I have experienced. Ofc, WBs with multiple players taunting will bring about over-taunt. With the exception of Arx Corinium, I think the source of the taunt that initiated the over taunt will hold agro no matter what until the debuff drops or that player character dies.

BTW, I did 26 taunts on a dummy over the course of 30 seconds and the debuff for over taunt never appeared.

For what it's worth, I'm not 100% sure it can proc unless there are taunts from multiple sources in effect. I'm also not 100% sure it shows up in the normal status effect list, or if it gets applied to the tanks directly (instead of the boss.) It's a mechanic that you'll almost never see, even in trials, because if you have trial ready tanks, they're not going to be casually mixing taunt like that. (Unless, they legitimately screw up. Hi, I have derped this up a few times over the years.)

Amottica · December 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I expect someone has mentioned this, but over taunt requires more than one source of taunt for it to be an issue. One tank taunting every second without a second source for a taunt does not bring up they debuff for over taunt. There is one instance where there seems to be a mysterious taunt that comes from nowhere, the final boss Arx Corinium.

So taunting too much is only an issue with fights where tanks need to swap and swap back soon afterwards and Arx Corinium as far as the content I have experienced. Ofc, WBs with multiple players taunting will bring about over-taunt. With the exception of Arx Corinium, I think the source of the taunt that initiated the over taunt will hold agro no matter what until the debuff drops or that player character dies.

BTW, I did 26 taunts on a dummy over the course of 30 seconds and the debuff for over taunt never appeared.

For what it's worth, I'm not 100% sure it can proc unless there are taunts from multiple sources in effect. I'm also not 100% sure it shows up in the normal status effect list, or if it gets applied to the tanks directly (instead of the boss.) It's a mechanic that you'll almost never see, even in trials, because if you have trial ready tanks, they're not going to be casually mixing taunt like that. (Unless, they legitimately screw up. Hi, I have derped this up a few times over the years.)

Overtaunt does show up as a status effect. I am new to tanking, heck, new to ESO, but with that last fight in Arx Corinium is where I saw the over taunt icon showing up when the boss turned away from me. Guild members explained what was happening and on a test dummy afterward, they showed me again. The over taunt debuff shows up on the boss and when two tanks are involved and the boss just ceases to acknowledge taunts until the debuff wears off which seems to be timed with the first taunt in the series.

How the final boss in Arx Corinium reacts is more like the original over taunt mechanic from what I have been told. At some point, Zenimax changed to the current design which makes more sense. Ofc, how it used to work was described to me and is not based on experience.

tomofhyrule · December 2021

The Arx fight is set up to cause overtaunting, that's why it happens.

Sellistrix's 'shed taunt' mechanic is programmed as 'Sellistrix is taunted by the computer.' Therefore there is always a second tank in the room during her fight (the computer), so once it taunts her and steals taunt from the tank, the player tank can end up poking her as the 'third' taunt, which causes her to go into overtaunt.

I'm sure that it's a relic of the quest. Granted most of us haven't seen that quest in ages, but when you get to that point on the quest and the nerieds are in the room, there's a synergy that pops every so often that says 'Taunt her!' that causes you to steal taunt. Off the quest, she still is susceptible to that mechanic to swap taunt to whoever hits the synergy, but it doesn't pop up outside of the quest so she gets tauned by nothing. However, it's still programmed as 'something else taunted her,' so a tank hitting her again in that 15 second window will overtaunt.

ixthUA · December 2021

I've seen many bosses having untauntable phases, when they switch to random player for one attack, then return to tank. When in dungeon overtaunt happened, boss completely ignored me and switched to other players.

starkerealm · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

I've seen many bosses having untauntable phases, when they switch to random player for one attack, then return to tank. When in dungeon overtaunt happened, boss completely ignored me and switched to other players.

Yeah, this is an AI thing. The boss AI has move sets. At each interval (it's something like every 6 seconds) the boss will select an action to take. Those actions are highly configurable on the backend; they can chain one to the next, they can be triggered by health thresholds, they can be single use... really there's a lot of potential.

One thing tanks (and DPS) need to understand about this system is that each action has it's own targeting "scheme." This will be things like, "the most recent player to attack the boss," or, "player furthest from the boss." Some actions are flagged to ignore taunt, while others are not. (I'm pretty sure there are some actions that are flagged to specifically target players who are not taunting the boss. So, an anti-taunt setting. But, I couldn't narrow those down aside from a few that never seem to pick the tank.)

As the tank, there is (usually) nothing you can do about attacks coded to ignore taunt. (Exceptions for stuff like the flame lock in SCP, the entirety of Planar Inhibitor, and Drodda's life drain when you're the target.)

It's not that the boss ignores taunt sometimes, it's that the boss will ignore taunt for certain actions. With enough experience and practice on a boss, you can learn what they will do when they decide to shrug off taunt and chase after another party member.

Also, in a lot of cases, you might start to realize who they will switch to. This is more useful if you're the DPS, and about to get winged by The Whisper's one shot (on vet.) But, in general, it's something you can learn. Most of the, "random," target switches have actual patterns to them. (Granted, many are obtuse enough that they may as well be random.)

madrab73 · December 2021

There's an on-going bug. Sometimes an enemy will drop taunt but still be on the count down so you can't re-apply it. Overtaunt is different it shows that you can't taunt on debuffs.

ixthUA · December 2021

From what i've seen bosses are scripted - they have a rotation, some of which is conditional (like pulling or streaking remote players).

Amottica · December 2021

ixthUA wrote: »

I've seen many bosses having untauntable phases, when they switch to random player for one attack, then return to tank. When in dungeon overtaunt happened, boss completely ignored me and switched to other players.

It is a common MMO fight mechanic to have the boss auto-target a random group member. It does not mean the tank lost agro or that over taunting has occurred. It is just a brief moment. It is also not like what happens in Arx.

ajkb78 · December 2021

It should never be an issue in dungeons unless there's a DD running a taunt. But even then, if the DD taunts the boss away from the tank and has to wear the aggro for 15 seconds it won't go randomly attacking other players except as part of its pre-set mechanics.

The only time it's really problematic is when you have a mechanic that requires tanks to swap bosses, i.e. the twins fight in vmol and the triplets in vhof. If a tank has given one of the triplets taunt immunity and therefore can't swap taunts he will die to the 10th bubble.

ixthUA · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

It is also not like what happens in Arx.

I did Arx yesterday, 1 taunt every 13 sec. Boss would regularly switch to other players, then return to me.

Bitter_Apple21 · April 2022

Djennku wrote: »

There's only one boss in the entire game that overtaunting affects, and that is the Mantikora In Sanctum Ophidia. Anything else is either an intended mechanic (ie. Selestrix in Arx Cronium) or someone else in the party used a taunt on the boss.

Folks

A little sensitive on this subject.

Learning to tank, and I will fully admit, I pierce multiple times within the 15 second window. And to the points above, I do not recall loosing aggro. Yes, depending on the boss, they might randomly refocus, but they will come back.

My sensitivity is to the point above.

I am tiptoeing into trials, and my guild is running a training trial this weekend on Sanctum. The comment above implies that even if there is no other player taunting, if I pierce multiple times in 15, I will lose it.

Can someone confirm or shed light on this particular boss?

Kisakee · April 2022

If you're the only one taunting you can go for an endless Pierce - LA rotation if you want, nothing strange will happen.

Can't confirm or deny on the Manticor in SO but that's not something you'll ever need to worry about when playing normal, just make sure to retaunt like every 10 seconds. You'll find that waiting longer sometimes will make you lose aggro when you're getting stunned or something.

And use a taunt on both bars, usually it'll be Pierce and Inner Fire while the second one can be edgy at times. Don't worry if it's not working sometimes, taunt can get odd when server is having a bad day or during primetimes.

AcadianPaladin · April 2022

Wonderful discussion of taunt/overtaunt. I suspect the reason for the multiple tank drop taunt feature is to prevent two tanks intentionally working together to 'ping pong' the boss between them.

My healer generally runs with a tank companion. Very handy for holding a WB in place and keeping them from chasing squishies all around and dragging the boss out of the 'killing zone'. And as a healer, she has no trouble keeping her tank companion healthy. I was delighted to see that when a real tank is there taunting the boss, the boss will completely ignore my companion's attempts to taunt. That totally avoids conflict and is a really good thing.

code65536 · April 2022

Jaxious79 wrote: »

It's 3 taughts in 15 seconds. The boss will become immune to taunts for 15 seconds.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-tanking-beginner-guide/

That guide is incorrect: that's not how overtaunt works.

How Taunt Immunity actually works...

When someone taunts an enemy, that enemy gains a 12-second (not 15) effect called "Taunt Counter". And every time taunt is reapplied, Taunt Counter increases by one. However, the 12-second duration of Taunt Counter is not refreshed with each taunt.

If a taunt changes while Taunt Counter is 2 or higher, then the enemy gains Taunt Immunity for 12 seconds, during which time the enemy will not respond to any new taunts (but any existing taunts will remain). Keep in mind that taunt is a 15-second effect, so as long as the tank whose taunt triggered the Taunt Immunity is alive, they will maintain aggro for the full duration of the Taunt Immunity.

Implication #1:

Taunt Immunity will never* happen if there's just one tank. It doesn't matter how high Taunt Counter goes up to; a high Taunt Counter triggers Taunt Immunity only when taunt changes. E.g., if another tank's taunt overrides your taunt.

* But there is one class of exception here, and that's if the taunt change happens due to a mechanic. Sellistrix is the classic example here. She sheds taunt, which the game treats as a change in taunt, so it can trigger Taunt Immunity. But these exceptions are rare.

Implication #2:

Immunity only affects the ability for the original tank to regain control of the enemy. The taunt that triggers the immunity will always succeed, and the new tank will maintain aggro for the full duration of the immunity since taunt outlasts immunity.

So for mechanics where taunts are intended to be swapped for long durations (and by "long", I mean more than 12s), like swapping tanks on Z'Maja, swapping bosses on vMoL twins, or swapping bosses in vHoF triplets, you can pretty much ignore Taunt Immunity, since the original tank isn't supposed to get the boss back anyway. The main downside to immunity in these cases is that the new tank only has a small 3s window between the end of immunity and the end of their taunt, with which to refresh their taunt.

The areas where Taunt Immunity is a major problem is if a taunt swap was accidental ("oops, I taunted Olms!") or with the Hulk swap mechanic on Rakkhat, where the MT holds the Hulk for only a short time.

Implication #3:

Taunt Immunity can be counter-intuitive. Let's illustrate this using these two examples:

At 0s, Alice taunts the boss. At 10s, Alice refreshes taunt. At 11s, Bob taunts the boss. -> The boss is now on Bob and has Taunt Immunity. Bob changed the taunt on the boss while Taunt Counter was at 2.
At 0s, Alice taunts the boss. For the next 11s, Alice furiously spams taunt every second. At 13s, Bob taunts the boss. -> The boss is now on Bob and does not have Taunt Immunity.

Think about that for a moment. The 12s Taunt Counter window that governs the Taunt Immunity mechanic is not an intuitive window. It's 3 taunts from two different tanks within a 12s Taunt Counter window that triggers Taunt Immunity. But how do you know where you are in that Taunt Counter window? You don't. You don't know if the previous taunt by the first tank is at the start of a Taunt Counter window or at the end of one. Yea, at the 0s mark of the fight, you know where that Taunt Counter window is. But let's say a tank refreshes their taunt 200 seconds into the fight. Did that taunt start a new Taunt Counter window? Or did it fall within an existing one? And if it did, where is it in that window? Outside of making a specialized addon for this, there's no reliable way for tanks to know.

This is why Taunt Immunity is so weird. In any case, it's only an issue in trials with two tanks. And for most mechanics that require taunt swap, the immunity doesn't matter since the first tank isn't supposed to take the target back that quickly anyway. It's really only a problem for the OT on Rakkhat for dealing with the Hulk. And for accidental taunt swaps.

If you absolutely need to avoid immunity (whether it be for an intended swap, if you're the OT on Rakkhat grabbing the Hulks, or for accidental swaps, if you're the MT in Asylum holding Olms), then the main rule is this: Space your taunts at least 12s apart (or, to phrase it another way, retaunt only when there's 2.9s or less remaining on your taunt).