MakoRuu wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

FAKE TANK AND FALSE HEALER MUST BE BAN !

The issue with just handing out random bans is that how do you prove it?

Players would just report anyone they wanted that they didn't like. "OH HE WAS FAKE TANKING!"

And then you get suspended. There needs to be a way to PROVE it. Like an in-game checking mechanic. I'm not a developers, so I don't know if that's even feasible.

Like I've said before on the debate of "fake" roles. Even if the "fake" is very obviously (assumption) a DD who hasn't even considered the basic courtesy of slotting a taunt, unless you're a mind-reader, very presumptuous about a person's skill, or the "fake" has openly admitted it in chat that they intended to queue as a role that they were not, with some sort of malicious intent in mind, there's not really any way to prove it to a report system. How would you report them, outside of the last example? "I died because the tank didn't taunt"? Even a real tank can lose taunt. It's not a bannable offence, I think? "I died because I believe the tank is actually a DD"? Proof? Oh, you were logging and you saw that they're using light/medium armour? DD gear? I... I wasn't aware that a tank had no choice in what they could wear? After all, a DD can run Leeching Plate or Plague Doctor? Hmmmm...

You can't place arbitrary restrictions like "A tank must have more than 25k health, they must have a taunt slotted, they must be using heavy armour, and cannot do more damage than... 1k, 2k, 4k,..., Nk" why? "A healer must have AoE heals slotted and output at least 10k...15k... 30k...? HPS," if no one needs healing why would a healer be spamming heals to pump up the raw HPS? And, lastly, you expect a DD to do DPS... to what arbitrary number? 5k? 10k? "More than the tank?" Oh, but wait, this is the exception to the rule. We absolutely cannot put rules on DDs. That would be wholly unfair.

As I also said earlier, a DD who slots a taunt and can survive and play even veteran DLC dungeons is not viewed by the wider community as a "fake" because they are fulfilling their role. But this is the only objective metric to judge, and people don't view it as such. Without rigid roles, where those roles are explicitly tied to their gear and weapons (e.g. in FFXIV), being a "fake" therefore comes down to expectation versus objective reasoning: you expect a tank to taunt, you expect a healer to heal, and you expect a damage dealer to do damage -- wait, sorry, I forgot you can't place expectations on DDs. But the expectations are completely subjective.

Most of the suggestions have, likewise, been based on expectations. "Make it so tanks must have a taunt slotted when queuing," for example, while also not accounting for a set like Tormentor which means you don't need a dedicated taunt ability to be slotted. To date, I haven't seen a single suggestion that wouldn't impact real tanks in a negative way as it puts these arbitrary rules on how to play based mostly on DD's expectations.

None of these things should be bannable offences. But... I'm curious. If we go the route of banning "fake" tanks and healers... can we also ban DDs who do abysmal DPS? After all, we're banning left and right based solely on assumptions and expectations, right?

With that all said, and understanding that the system we have right now is only a facilitation and it's player's expectation which give rise to these topics, how as a programmer (even thinking as a non-programmer) would you implement a system of completely arbitrary, subjective, but also rigid and potentially conflicting standards that players expect? All the while, only listening to DDs and not asking the tanks or healers who stand to be penalised? Consider, also, that not all players have the same subjective standards. Maybe a series of checkboxes or additional queue types? All these suggestions have been mentioned before and most would have a foreseeable negative impact on the queue system. Such a rigid system cannot exist in ESO's current state and making "fake" tanking bannable is not feasible.

ZOS should enforce roles... now with the armory's release, there is zero excuse for fake roles. (there wasn't before either)

Get rid of the 10 transmutes and the end game players will get out of the normal queue.

Random normal has turned into a bunch of Olympic athletes creating problems for kids in the wading pool because they actually want to wade in the wading pool.

Enforcing roles? Banning fake tanks/healer? Removing rewards? Sure. I want to see world burn. /s

Its funny how most ppl thinks that removing fake roles from queue will bring real ones. Removing fake roles - 2h queue for DDs.

Forcing stuff on healers and tanks? Why not on DDs? Are tanks and healers slaves of DDs? I tanked nFG1 for 30 minutes. It wasnt fun. I tanked vDoM for 2h. It wasnt fun either. In both dungeons DDs didnt even listen to me. Those were times when i was still nice and patient. Im not gonna do this again just because someone wants a real tank.

Banning roles? [snip]

Removing rewards? Yes it will remove fake tanks and healers. Real ones too.

Every time i tank something there is a DD who has some kind of problem. For example i tanked vRG 7 times. 6 times there was DD blaming tanks for owns mistakes. Of course i made some mistakes because im not perfect. But i got blamed for not doing DD's mechs, for not pulling adds away so the DDs can just parse the main boss, for killing the group when i wasnt even near them because some DD didnt know mechs... and i can could say more. Do u know how many times someone was on my side from these 6 times in vRG? 1. Only one time.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

I was in a group that had a fake tank in spindle clutch 2. It was me (1790), a DPS (253), a healer(503), and the fake tank(683). I genuinely gave the guy a shot, but didn't know what they were doing, but knew it was not helpful. They did not taunt, they did not, stay close to the boss and they ran well ahead of the group. Since I was stamina, and everyone else was a mag spec, I became the defacto tank. When they ran ahead and died right to the 2nd to the last boss, our group chose not to rez the during the fight, and we kicked them. I proceeded to throw on an actual taunt, and smoothly fake tank the rest of the dungeon, never losing aggro, or having anyone drop.

Actually no need tank or healer as long as below criteria can be fulfilled:
All the 4 players must have at least 1800 CP.
All players slot a self heal skill.
Stam DPS or templar slot taunt.

Normal dung can be completed in under 10 min
Vet dung can be completed in under 20 min.

I got Problems the other way around. I AM a Tank and when I do a dungeon the first time I let everyone know that I want to experience this dungeon fully. Likewise, I listen to all dialogues, read all the Books in the dungeon and get kicked because I am too slow. I, then, report every Player of the group and queue again.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Sigh. I feel yo pain playa.

I think punishment is perhaps the wrong way to approach this.

Here's what I would suggest. Setup like a ratings system for at least each account (or character). And then, because its personal info, give each player the ability to opt-out. Rate each run 1-5 Crowns (Stars). And then give them a special rating for finishing the run. So we can see who has consistently demonstrated they are into finishing vs dropping out and looking for carries.

So once that's done, you now have two types of players and that will tell us all we need to know. This system can be setup to be discrete yet provide the public with some basic info to go on without being too intrusive. Yet, remember the player could still opt out, and we will know that they have intentionally decided not to share with us.

At least this way, you get some idea who you are working with.

Ha. I had been thinking about this, somewhat along the lines of how ratings work with Uber and Lyft.

The bottom line is, everyone is expecting ZOS to fix a PEOPLE problem. It is kind of unreasonable, and adding punishments or restrictions to a game seems... not fun?

Also, the problem is that people are LYING (fake) or new/inexperienced (bad), which can apply to all roles and it is not right to punish the latter who are learning in an attempt to eliminate the former. And it would be almost impossible to distinguish between the two in an automated way.

But why do people fake roles? It is because, in their mind, it is the fastest way to get a reward. Rewards and best use of time is what motivates people.. So, ZOS could remove the rewards or add another reward system that encourages people to not lie and get better at their role.

Introducing... the kudos system! Similar to trading gear, it could be active from the moment a group kills the last boss in an encounter through the next 15 min/hour/2 hours. Could work in Trials too. It could be as simple as an idea that your team mates can give you a thumbs up or it could get more nuanced, where they could choose "great tanking!" or "nice explanations!" Upvotes should give an immediate reward (a reward box, transmute crystals, crowns, gold, chance for motif), but maybe you can only earn one of those every few hours, and also build towards achievements added in game that have cool rewards. Upvotes are anonymous, but players could be given the option to show and brag about their score in some way.

ZOS could try to keep people who know each other from gaming the system by not allowing upvotes from people on your friends list but honestly I don't think it's necessary. This idea is about reducing toxicity and encouraging honesty so if it results in more people making friends and creating pre-made groups, that's fine too.

It won't solve everything because some people won't care, but its existence would be a carrot to be more considerate and would raise awareness of expectations for people who are learning.

Any punishment, any role vetting, or role eliminating in the dungeon queue is likely to cause as many problems as it solves. In a game played with others, we must accept that some folks will lie and some won't be good at their roles. ZOS cannot fix human nature. But they might be able to reward desirable behavior, or at least in this case give us the tools as a community to reward each other.

HybridFreak wrote: »

My suggestion/idea - a sliding scale for the rewards that scales up based on your time spent in queue. And possibly another modifier if it's a DLC dungeon. That way people have an incentive and reason to wait through a long queue. My theory, someone would be less likely to queue as a fake tank to skip a 30 minute queue if they would get double or triple the reward.

Major flaw in the argument there: long queue means greater rewards... DD queue is long which means higher rewards.

Why would I queue as a "real" tank or healer for fast queue times when I can wait a couple minutes in the DD queue? Again, this only penalises support roles for being support roles and promotes playing as a DD and waiting in a long queue. It will have the opposite effect to what is desirable. The game doesn't have a shortage of DDs. That's part of the problem. What you suggest only creates even more congestion on the DD queue while also promoting and incentivising being a DD over a support role.

Additional issue: penalising people who opt for pre-made groups since queue time is as near to instant as it can be (considering bugs where the queue doesn't pop even with a full pre-made group).

Wow I've been playing this game since beta and I have yet to report a single player, this is kinda wild.