duuude they just buff it xD that's how mmorpg works.nerf it buff it.ppl waiting for 3 years for that buff.When you died it doesnt mean they have to nerf it xD just find another way to kill them thats how pvp works.learn it.

TheS1X wrote: »

For those who think I got beaten and this is why I tell the truth, nah man. I like difficult PVP but when I see that It is impossible to beat someone just because they are overpowered then I must say it. DK is OP and same goes for a Templar!
I don't even care if some class is stronger than other but geeez, unkillable? No thanks, this is not how PVP should be.
What is this? Classes made for 5 year olds so they can safely roam Cyrodiil?
Tell me, how is this normal that DK had 2mil damage done, 0 deaths at the end of match while Sorc had 1mil and best NB was around 700k damage done with 10 deaths and only few kills.
What is the point of this game anymore if some classes are that strong?
Soon everyone plays with DK or a Templar, how fun will it be then? Nobody ever dies again and fights last ages.
Nvm Zos, do what u want, your game.
Just sharing my honest opinion here.

Your Right, i have been trying to tell people this.
i Quoted you for Truth.
all truth.

What class do you guys who wanna see a dk Nerf play? I play a mag dk they are a little better than before buff but not game breaking I feel there on par now mostly but not op.

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

McTaterskins wrote: »

You're looking at the wrong problem.

Its not a particular class that's op. (well, not entirely - there are some* minor imbalances yet)

It is healing.

Healing is OP. - Especially when it gets its bonuses from the same stats that improve damage.

Nah,

Damage reduction is OP, esp. from vampire and pariah et. al. when all other sources, even major protection got a nerf. Undeath is one of the most ridiculous buffs in the game right now and a large part of why "healing is op."

You can heal for a billion hp and it wouldn't matter if you died in one hit, but with undeath even with 9k resistance I can build more tankier than someone in heavy armor with % reductions, keep my damage, keep my healing, and keep my sustain -- and it's literally all because of that buff being out of line along with other "unique" buffs.

I have said it many times but "unique" is usually codeword for OP or BROKEN on this game. It's always been true and will continue to do so.

It's not really OP, it starts counting from 50% and for 30% reduction you need to be rediculously low on health, execution is often more than enough to finish the kill.

The debuffs paired to stage 3 are more than sufficient to counter the buff.

milllaurie wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

Where caution must be exercised is that it remains viable - or even meta for these classes - to run DK, and the imposter tank classes, in a tank like way.

Otherwise, in all Medium, with a Bow, StamDK is just a "Poison Rogue", a low grade NB.

This isn't what most of us who main DK want, in all of our years of advocating for buffs to our class rarely did we suggest "We don't want to play Poison Rogue, so nerf the Rogue playstyle altogether"

Before Necro, wasn't NB capable of stacking the most mitigation, with the most Ult Gen? Telling DKs they should be happy to be running as a Rogue to be competitive could be flipped, NBs should be happy running as brawler tanks like the rest of us.

What sort of "balance" do we like? All things the same color, or all colors equally vibrant?

Let's be clear, when I say "in a tank like way", I mean in a way that maximally frustrates the plots of ranged Sorcs and NBs. In a way that will not please a Ranged Ganker. That's the whole point - to achieve balance without homogenization.

If Melee is best ran at 20k HP, 15k Resistances, and so is an Archer or a Ranged Mage - then melee skills must hit substantially harder than anything which is achievable at range, or there's no point to playing Melee. Look at the state of a Bow Frontbar in PvP - it's not great in my opinion, does anybody run the Asylum Bow ever? Right now there's room for it to be buffed, that there probably wasn't the patch the revised Champion system debuted.

Sorry mate, none of what you say makes any sense at all.
Dks are not worse rogues, in medium they are super tanky (if you run s&b) and have great burst (2h), with inherited great pressure from class DoTs, aoe major breach, armor buff that deals damage, and a lot of great passives to sustain and healing. I have no idea how you came up with the idea, but try reading DK passives again.
How is mellee best ran at 20k hp? Are you talking about pve in a pvp forum? 20k hp could be the reason you are feeling this way about the class.

You describe using a S&B - that's a tank, in the way the term is used on this forum. By rogue I mean under 25k HP and a bow backbar. It's a sub-optimal way to run the class, if you're trying to get the most mileage out of the kit relative to other classes. Of course non-stealth melee is not best ran at 20k HP, that was my point.

My comments however were about Stam so they might not make any sense in this thread.

You have no idea how I came up with the idea that DK is a tank class?

In my opinion, recognizing that some classes are better with certain weapons and certain armor types means all 3 of these things can be better balanced to work together to allow classes to maximize their unique strengths.

Well, dk's unique strength is they are very tanky in the class passives and if you try to run them not accounting to the class passives it's on you.
It's like running a no-shield sorc with 20k hp. It can theoretically work but it doesn't because 20k hp is 2 LA-SA on my brawler nb. 1 incap into light attack and you are down before you even have the time to react.
On my stamden I do not even have to use my ult to bring you down.
Dude, this is a high damage meta an there is a reason people are not running 20k hp anymore.
It was viable 1,5 years ago and back but we are through those times and now people die easy.
Try running the same "rogue" with 30k hp and you will see how it changes things.
Also, running backbar s&b does not make you a tank just like running a resto backbar does not make you a healer.
My s&b backbar nb has 8.2k wdmg and eats 20k hp potatoes for breakfast.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was even talking about.

My comment that a Rogue Knight is no good is in response to the idea that there must be a spectrum between "DD" and "Tank". Wrong, in PvP DKs are "Tanks" and "DDs" at the same time, in the way the word "tank" is used on this forum - somebody who block-heals as their primary defense rather than evades.

Yes, running a S&B makes you a "tank" in what people mean when they say "tank meta". More than 25k HP, more than 2 pieces of Heavy, S&B equipped - any 1 of those and you're a "tank".

I too thought this was an absurd way to use the word, years ago, but now I embrace it.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It all comes down to this. If there's a class that can built to be a tank while also dealing immense damage, there needs to be an adjustment. They don't have to nerf DK, templars or necros directly. They just need to be a spectrum. On one end, full damage. On the other, full tank. Right now you can build your DK/Templar/Necro to be a high health, high armor tank while still landing ultimate group wipes or ridiculous executes. It's an easy fix. Add a damage debuff to battle spirit based on combined health+armor.

Why both? Because players are clever. If you base it on armor, they stack health. Base it on health, they'll stack armor.

Where caution must be exercised is that it remains viable - or even meta for these classes - to run DK, and the imposter tank classes, in a tank like way.

Otherwise, in all Medium, with a Bow, StamDK is just a "Poison Rogue", a low grade NB.

This isn't what most of us who main DK want, in all of our years of advocating for buffs to our class rarely did we suggest "We don't want to play Poison Rogue, so nerf the Rogue playstyle altogether"

Before Necro, wasn't NB capable of stacking the most mitigation, with the most Ult Gen? Telling DKs they should be happy to be running as a Rogue to be competitive could be flipped, NBs should be happy running as brawler tanks like the rest of us.

What sort of "balance" do we like? All things the same color, or all colors equally vibrant?

Let's be clear, when I say "in a tank like way", I mean in a way that maximally frustrates the plots of ranged Sorcs and NBs. In a way that will not please a Ranged Ganker. That's the whole point - to achieve balance without homogenization.

If Melee is best ran at 20k HP, 15k Resistances, and so is an Archer or a Ranged Mage - then melee skills must hit substantially harder than anything which is achievable at range, or there's no point to playing Melee. Look at the state of a Bow Frontbar in PvP - it's not great in my opinion, does anybody run the Asylum Bow ever? Right now there's room for it to be buffed, that there probably wasn't the patch the revised Champion system debuted.

Sorry mate, none of what you say makes any sense at all.
Dks are not worse rogues, in medium they are super tanky (if you run s&b) and have great burst (2h), with inherited great pressure from class DoTs, aoe major breach, armor buff that deals damage, and a lot of great passives to sustain and healing. I have no idea how you came up with the idea, but try reading DK passives again.
How is mellee best ran at 20k hp? Are you talking about pve in a pvp forum? 20k hp could be the reason you are feeling this way about the class.

You describe using a S&B - that's a tank, in the way the term is used on this forum. By rogue I mean under 25k HP and a bow backbar. It's a sub-optimal way to run the class, if you're trying to get the most mileage out of the kit relative to other classes. Of course non-stealth melee is not best ran at 20k HP, that was my point.

My comments however were about Stam so they might not make any sense in this thread.

You have no idea how I came up with the idea that DK is a tank class?

In my opinion, recognizing that some classes are better with certain weapons and certain armor types means all 3 of these things can be better balanced to work together to allow classes to maximize their unique strengths.

Well, dk's unique strength is they are very tanky in the class passives and if you try to run them not accounting to the class passives it's on you.
It's like running a no-shield sorc with 20k hp. It can theoretically work but it doesn't because 20k hp is 2 LA-SA on my brawler nb. 1 incap into light attack and you are down before you even have the time to react.
On my stamden I do not even have to use my ult to bring you down.
Dude, this is a high damage meta an there is a reason people are not running 20k hp anymore.
It was viable 1,5 years ago and back but we are through those times and now people die easy.
Try running the same "rogue" with 30k hp and you will see how it changes things.
Also, running backbar s&b does not make you a tank just like running a resto backbar does not make you a healer.
My s&b backbar nb has 8.2k wdmg and eats 20k hp potatoes for breakfast.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was even talking about.

My comment that a Rogue Knight is no good is in response to the idea that there must be a spectrum between "DD" and "Tank". Wrong, in PvP DKs are "Tanks" and "DDs" at the same time, in the way the word "tank" is used on this forum - somebody who block-heals as their primary defense rather than evades.

Yes, running a S&B makes you a "tank" in what people mean when they say "tank meta". More than 25k HP, more than 2 pieces of Heavy, S&B equipped - any 1 of those and you're a "tank".

I too thought this was an absurd way to use the word, years ago, but now I embrace it.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I have played long enough to remember when it was legitimately rare to see people with hp over 30k. Now that is the norm as well as main barring S&B(90% of the time until they are ready to burst) and wearing plenty of heavy armor. Actual DD are extremely rare now. Only ever see magsorcs playing traditional DD builds. Its completely fine to call them tanks because they actually are. Pretty sure if you took one of these DK or templar pvpers and stuck them in the tank role in a veteran dungeon they could clear it easily(probably even without a healer).

No dang compromise anymore between damage and survivability. Redesign every class to be like magsorcs. That is how a DD should be in pvp. Not borderline impossible to kill 1v1 because they have a critical weakness when their shields are down. Still very good at surviving when played by a skilled player despite that weakness. Deal good damage with a skillful burst combo.

Perhaps every class needs to have a critical weakness to its main survivability mechanic like magsorcs. I think that is why they are so perfectly balanced right now. Feels crazy to say because I also remember when they were broken OP, but now they are perfect. Dodging is easy enough to counter with aoe(although I will say major evasion + medium armor passives is a bit stupid). Cloak is stupidly easy to counter now. Give us some counters on par with those for blocking and healing. The tank factor would not be anywhere near as fun wrecking if we could just swap builds to deal with opponents using block and healing like we can for dodging and sneaking. I think dots should be the counter to blocking since they already do full damage to blocking opponents its just a shame it does pitiful damage. Healing just needs to not heal for nearly as much unless on a fully dedicated healer and even then it should only be 1:1 with a DD. Healing on a DD should be something you do when you manage to LOS or escape, a slow but steady recovery. Absolutely stupid to watch someone throw block up and heal to full in 1-2 gcds. Healing potions are already really good for staying alive so the weapon damage infused critical heals on top of that is just WAAAAY too much on a DD or tank.

Well said @xxslam48xxb14_ESO . I agree with most of your points there. I don't think every class needs redesigned to be like MagSorc but I definitely agree about the critical weaknesses. For me Cloak is harder to break now since I comfortably relied on Volatile Armor's AoE DoT to do that, which no longer works, but I think that's a good change, my encounters with NBs are now more interesting. Now it's best for me to spam Noxious for decloak which is hit or miss, unlike Volatile which was guaranteed to decloak if they were in range. I could see that spammable 360 degree AoE Direct Damage might be a little harsh for decloak, but I don't think I've tried any since the change to decloak. I agree very much that DoTs could / should be the counter to blocking, like I've said before, how OP Thews of the Harbinger is in any given patch can sort of be used as an indication for whether DoTs are properly balanced relative to Direct Damage - especially single target DoTs versus AoE Direct Damage. About weaknesses, something worth re-iterating, because I think it's quite true: no small part of MagDK's present success is due to the ubiquity of Vampirism.

Overall, I can't remember a time when Sorc - Templar - Warden - DK seemed so well-balanced (jury is still out for me on NB and Necro), but, I think we have pretty broad agreement that healing is just a little too powerful right now.

What do we think about:

Battlespirit: Reduced Damage by an additional 2%, reduced Healing by additional 6%, or something like that. Both DKs have great burst healing as we all know, this would hit us as hard as anybody.