Brrrofski wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Combat is what keeps people on ESO. It feels intuative and that every action is important. Take that away and it'll just be slow, too easy and boring.

As long as light attacks did even like 10% more damage, that's what min-maxers would roll with unless they didn't actually enjoy doing them.

Heavy attacks have been closer in the past and it didn't result in everyone abandoning the game or being unable to compete using weaving.

But you can do 99% of this game with a bad light attack weave, or just heavies.

You're talking about the very very top where it makes a difference. Like leaderboards os hardmodes of new trials.

There is an issue when the next best thing to meta is so dominant, in any game, that you shouldn't even bother trying. Most games will strive to have a meta, and then some close off-meta strategies for variety.

And there is zero reason this game should be any different. As long as this game has it so that light attack weaving is always gonna produce the best results, there is zero good reason for other strategies to not at least come close.

If you actually thought this was a matter of people enjoying the LA builds more, then it wouldn't matter that heavy attacks became closer but still inferior to LA builds. Because nobody is going to abandon a build that they enjoy more and does more damage and is overall better for endgame content.

So if that's your worry, then don't.

If your worry is a lot of players actually hate LA weaving, and would abandon it if the difference is 10%-20%. Then why are you trying to force people to use builds they don't enjoy when the more skillful build would still be better?

So long as LA builds are better for competitive content, it does not matter if they increase the effectiveness of the HA build. They only need to keep them off-meta.

The problem with HA build is that you can't cast abilities on cooldown. If such build did similar dps to a build that casts skills every GCD, they'd need to buff heavy attack damage by a lot.

If they buffed heavy attack damage by a lot, to match light attack weaving, then noobs would just ONLY heavy attack. They'd suddenly do 3x more dps than they ever did while still doing very, very bad.

This would also ruin all burst damage in the game because everyone would be forced to use heavy attacks for that. Pvp would be a mess.

HA rotation takes like half the "skill" of LA rotation just because you need to press half the buttons. I don't think they need to be any closer to each other.

"Play how you want" doesn't mean "whatever you do you'll do just as well as everyone else".

Heavy attack builds are more passive gameplay. Active play style should be rewarded more than passive.

Succuby wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are more passive gameplay. Active play style should be rewarded more than passive.

I do not think so.

Compared to Skill + bash is much more harder than Skill + la but difference is less.

3 times bash per second is much more active than LA + skill, but it has the same less dps !

My hand get sick after 1 hour of bashing, game play is trash - but is more active, why i do not see more damage output on it than ?

You should make a seperate thread for buffing bash weaving.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Combat is what keeps people on ESO. It feels intuative and that every action is important. Take that away and it'll just be slow, too easy and boring.

As long as light attacks did even like 10% more damage, that's what min-maxers would roll with unless they didn't actually enjoy doing them.

Heavy attacks have been closer in the past and it didn't result in everyone abandoning the game or being unable to compete using weaving.

But you can do 99% of this game with a bad light attack weave, or just heavies.

You're talking about the very very top where it makes a difference. Like leaderboards os hardmodes of new trials.

There is an issue when the next best thing to meta is so dominant, in any game, that you shouldn't even bother trying. Most games will strive to have a meta, and then some close off-meta strategies for variety.

And there is zero reason this game should be any different. As long as this game has it so that light attack weaving is always gonna produce the best results, there is zero good reason for other strategies to not at least come close.

If you actually thought this was a matter of people enjoying the LA builds more, then it wouldn't matter that heavy attacks became closer but still inferior to LA builds. Because nobody is going to abandon a build that they enjoy more and does more damage and is overall better for endgame content.

So if that's your worry, then don't.

If your worry is a lot of players actually hate LA weaving, and would abandon it if the difference is 10%-20%. Then why are you trying to force people to use builds they don't enjoy when the more skillful build would still be better?

So long as LA builds are better for competitive content, it does not matter if they increase the effectiveness of the HA build. They only need to keep them off-meta.

Heavy attack builds are a LOT easier than light attack builds though. Drop 3 or 4 dots and hold a button.

The trial scene in this game is extremely unhealthy in population, same with pvp. It would be good for the game to have more people doing these things.

Leaderboards already reward people for more skillful builds by placing higher scores. There is zero reason for content to be gate kept away from skillful use of alternative builds. Those dungeons and raids also have a ton of mechanics that are skill expression.

I will agree that they need to be careful how they do it so it don't become meta in either activity, though.

Do you have any suggestions to any other "skillful" builds because heavy attack builds aren't that and won't be unless they completely change how heavy attacks work.

Brrrofski wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Combat is what keeps people on ESO. It feels intuative and that every action is important. Take that away and it'll just be slow, too easy and boring.

As long as light attacks did even like 10% more damage, that's what min-maxers would roll with unless they didn't actually enjoy doing them.

Heavy attacks have been closer in the past and it didn't result in everyone abandoning the game or being unable to compete using weaving.

But you can do 99% of this game with a bad light attack weave, or just heavies.

You're talking about the very very top where it makes a difference. Like leaderboards os hardmodes of new trials.

There is an issue when the next best thing to meta is so dominant, in any game, that you shouldn't even bother trying. Most games will strive to have a meta, and then some close off-meta strategies for variety.

And there is zero reason this game should be any different. As long as this game has it so that light attack weaving is always gonna produce the best results, there is zero good reason for other strategies to not at least come close.

If you actually thought this was a matter of people enjoying the LA builds more, then it wouldn't matter that heavy attacks became closer but still inferior to LA builds. Because nobody is going to abandon a build that they enjoy more and does more damage and is overall better for endgame content.

So if that's your worry, then don't.

If your worry is a lot of players actually hate LA weaving, and would abandon it if the difference is 10%-20%. Then why are you trying to force people to use builds they don't enjoy when the more skillful build would still be better?

So long as LA builds are better for competitive content, it does not matter if they increase the effectiveness of the HA build. They only need to keep them off-meta.

Heavy attack builds are a LOT easier than light attack builds though. Drop 3 or 4 dots and hold a button.

I think it's incredibly generous that you can pull as much damage as you can with a rotation like that.

I don't see an issue with something harder to pull off reaping more of a reward.

And I don't have an issue with it even getting buffed. I don't really care how much people pull in a trial or standing on front of a dummy. I really don't.

Buffing them too much would case an issue in pvp though. Unless they made channels like lightning staff be broken when someone rolls. Last thing we want is zergs just walking around holding down one button and killing people with even less skill than we already have.

And we'd need heavies from stealth to be reduced. We've had metas like that, and it was horrible.

My issue mainly though is with the calls in this thread for cooldowns, cast times and making light attacks taking a gcd. It'd drastically change how the combat is, which as I've said, is what keeps a LOT of people playing this game.

We already have cooldowns on most ultimates now because people didn't want to learn other classes and understand how rotations and burst works. There was already a way to counter instant cast ultimates, by learning how other classes played and working out when the ultimate is coming.

@Brrrofski At one point in time, there was downside to LA/burst builds. You spent your bar. You ran out of resources.

It was self regulating. Going even further back, there were softcaps. It didn't mean you couldn't build up a stat, but there was a penalty past a certain point to do so. Diminishing returns.

HA build's have no resource issues but incur lower overall damage.

LA builds, done right, also have no resource issues and get a tremendous damage increase.

It doesn't have to be a one or the other scenario, which is partly why I mentioned medium attacks. Slower combat isn't necessarily what people are asking for. More consistent results in combat, practiced, skilled combat, absolutely,

The all or nothing with LA cancelling that has to happen right now is one of the big reasons people have difficulty with it. Don't add extra GCD's, but make the attacks count consistently.

A perfectly timed weave should always out parse an average one. There's your skill requirement. A slightly off-timing weave shouldn't lose 10-50% of the LA's and all the procs, enchants, effects, ulti, and extra damage that goes with them.

No one, no one, has asked, nor expects a HA build to match a skilled LA build. Less of a differential or reworks to make it more accommodating wouldn't change over that top tier group to the easier option.

People still have to put thought into their builds. People still have to consider CP's and mechanics.

High end meta will always be high end meta. The fact that there is a singlular option to even approach those numbers with no real downside (other than time spent practicing) is an imbalance. No two ways about it.

There should be benefits and downsides to every aspect of balanced game. LA currently has none for those that can do it consistently and do it well.

If you really wanted fast paced dynamic combat, I'd expect to see you requesting random spawn locations, mechanics that required you to actually react to the situation, not just memorize it. Better reflexes and better builds would still win out, as they should, but it wouldn't continue to be the us/them l33t/casual split down the middle it's so often made out to be. I've offered up half a dozen suggestions on how to make it so, for all skill levels, referencing games that have gotten it right and still keep it balanced.

In either case, it's all overtuned. Mechanics used to be a measure of skill as well, not just how quickly one could press buttons. 3 minute vCR+3 runs are a prime example. Those mechanics that get completely ignored are a skill requirement for the people asking for the gap to be lessened. Not removed, just lessened.

You could set everyone up with the same gear, the same class, same rotation, and same CP's and there will still be a skill differential between players. No one is asking for that aspect to be removed.

Good developers would have a floor, a ceiling, and multiple tiers between.

While learning the light attack weave may be easy for some, it's impossible for other well-skilled players due to such factors as physical limitations (not just major things like a missing hand, but also tendonopathy, carpal tunnel, arthritis, etc), and/or latency and connection issues, which might be due to platform or location.

There's a reason the endgame community is so small, especially on console, and it's not lack of desire or learning. Without a nearly perfect light attack, you can't reach the dps numbers that almost all trials groups require to sign up for even basic vet trials, not hm, not score pushing. I've been trying to master the light attack animation canceling weave for 2 years, and I'm coming to the conclusion now that due to multiple factors, I'm never going to master it. The highest I've parsed is 68k, so just a dps boost of 2k would get me to the lowest tier needed to join "learning" or progression runs.

I've met and played with many "upper-mid-level" players like myself who have beaten every vet dlc dungeon because we can master mechanics, but can't complete vet trials mostly because of the gate-keeping. And I even get why people ask for a minimum dps, to maximize the chances of a successful clear. (Not sold on the exact numbers, though. I might not parse 100k but I don't die much, and I see a lot of others who do die to mechanics. Since console doesn't have combat metrics, no way to know how everything averages out). All I know is every day I see calls for vet trials in major trials guilds that are cancelled because of lack of qualified dps.

So yes, an additional option would be nice. Not to mention that if I parse for a mere hour, I injure myself enough that I can't even play the next day, or text, or barely even work on a computer.

There's something wrong with a game absolutely requiring that for simple veteran content. (I get the tougher requirements for hard mode achievements and so on, and I think they're fine.)

Sadly, with the way pve and pvp are balanced, it's not an easy thing to address.

.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Combat is what keeps people on ESO. It feels intuative and that every action is important. Take that away and it'll just be slow, too easy and boring.

As long as light attacks did even like 10% more damage, that's what min-maxers would roll with unless they didn't actually enjoy doing them.

Heavy attacks have been closer in the past and it didn't result in everyone abandoning the game or being unable to compete using weaving.

But you can do 99% of this game with a bad light attack weave, or just heavies.

You're talking about the very very top where it makes a difference. Like leaderboards os hardmodes of new trials.

There is an issue when the next best thing to meta is so dominant, in any game, that you shouldn't even bother trying. Most games will strive to have a meta, and then some close off-meta strategies for variety.

And there is zero reason this game should be any different. As long as this game has it so that light attack weaving is always gonna produce the best results, there is zero good reason for other strategies to not at least come close.

If you actually thought this was a matter of people enjoying the LA builds more, then it wouldn't matter that heavy attacks became closer but still inferior to LA builds. Because nobody is going to abandon a build that they enjoy more and does more damage and is overall better for endgame content.

So if that's your worry, then don't.

If your worry is a lot of players actually hate LA weaving, and would abandon it if the difference is 10%-20%. Then why are you trying to force people to use builds they don't enjoy when the more skillful build would still be better?

So long as LA builds are better for competitive content, it does not matter if they increase the effectiveness of the HA build. They only need to keep them off-meta.

Heavy attack builds are a LOT easier than light attack builds though. Drop 3 or 4 dots and hold a button.

I think it's incredibly generous that you can pull as much damage as you can with a rotation like that.

I don't see an issue with something harder to pull off reaping more of a reward.

And I don't have an issue with it even getting buffed. I don't really care how much people pull in a trial or standing on front of a dummy. I really don't.

Buffing them too much would case an issue in pvp though. Unless they made channels like lightning staff be broken when someone rolls. Last thing we want is zergs just walking around holding down one button and killing people with even less skill than we already have.

And we'd need heavies from stealth to be reduced. We've had metas like that, and it was horrible.

My issue mainly though is with the calls in this thread for cooldowns, cast times and making light attacks taking a gcd. It'd drastically change how the combat is, which as I've said, is what keeps a LOT of people playing this game.

We already have cooldowns on most ultimates now because people didn't want to learn other classes and understand how rotations and burst works. There was already a way to counter instant cast ultimates, by learning how other classes played and working out when the ultimate is coming.

Good developers would have a floor, a ceiling, and multiple tiers between.

There is a floor, a selling, and multiple tiers between. The problem is that people can choose to gear poorly, use poorly performing skills, and use bad rotations. That significantly lowers the floor.

Yes, this happens in other games but with few barriers concerning build choices it exasperates the problem but it is a player problem.

Case in point, one person in this or the HA thread commented they were having a problem clearing some content. They changed gear and were able to clear. That demonstrates how impactful a player's choice can be.

azjuwelz wrote: »

All I know is every day I see calls for vet trials in major trials guilds that are cancelled because of lack of qualified dps.

I see the same time thing happen with people trying to put together PUG groups too in Craglorn. Like it can take a very long time to get a group together and often people give up and disband or go in normal with less than 12 people. It's so extremely unhealthy for the long term sustainability of trials to keep things as they are now.

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Honestly, after a while LAweaving comes quite naturally

It does?
I can't do it at all.

cyberjanet wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Honestly, after a while LAweaving comes quite naturally

It does?
I can't do it at all.

I'd even say for some of us it was pretty natural even without out of the game sources, I was quite surprised myself when learned it wasn't obvious for a lot of players when was just couple of months into the game. And weaving becomes a habit after some time anyway, playing pve and pvp for years it's hard to even replicate no la rotation/combo on a demand, it just comes with every cast now without thinking about it.

azjuwelz wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

cyberjanet wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Honestly, after a while LAweaving comes quite naturally

It does?
I can't do it at all.

I'd even say for some of us it was pretty natural even without out of the game sources, I was quite surprised myself when learned it wasn't obvious for a lot of players when was just couple of months into the game. And weaving becomes a habit after some time anyway, playing pve and pvp for years it's hard to even replicate no la rotation/combo on a demand, it just comes with every cast now without thinking about it.

Can I weave in a light attack between every skill? Yes I can, and I have to as a nightblade wearing sets that proc on light attacks, whether mag or Stam.

But can I weave with the precision necessary to cancel animations and achieve high dps? No.

This. Plus, my stamblade endless hail animation takes 2 seconds just to start. I usually do 2 light attacks just to time it so I don’t miss one of them.