Light Attack Weaving +

Amottica

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

There is a floor, a selling, and multiple tiers between. The problem is that people can choose to gear poorly, use poorly performing skills, and use bad rotations. That significantly lowers the floor.

Yes, this happens in other games but with few barriers concerning build choices it exasperates the problem but it is a player problem.

Case in point, one person in this or the HA thread commented they were having a problem clearing some content. They changed gear and were able to clear. That demonstrates how impactful a player's choice can be.

@Amottica this is such a tired excuse.

We're not talking about poorly geared, unaware, inexperienced people that are having this issue. We're talking about people that have otherwise almost identical setups with the exception of this one aspect that effectively robs them of anywhere between 10k and 35k DPS.

Again, look at any of a dozen world record, full skip-the-mechanics burn videos of late. It's a tradeoff that was never intended to happen and has gotten far out of control. Devs don't add mechanics so players can simply ignore them entirely. It's a direct result of OP gearsets (generally marketed to sell content) and high APM's, which are directly tied to LA weaving I'm willing to bet a solid 50% of the playerbase still cannot do consistently.

My comment was in reply to another comments and was very appropriate I’m that context.

Additionally, the top players achieving what you mention here will be the top players regardless because they have put the time and effort in, which includes testing to find improvements.

It is that way in every MMORPG, that the top players experience fewer mechanics because they Have put the effort in to do it that well. They send to have the highest APMs in any game.

Ksariyu

Gone for a few days and this thread got entirely derailed. Nice.

The issue isn't LA weaving. The issue isn't the disparity between HA and LA builds. The issue is the lack of creativity across the ENTIRETY of combat in this game. As I mentioned in the OP, there are ways to add more variety to the game that don't involve HAs at all, or that INCREASE the number of LAs used. In the particular case of weapon speed, you could reasonably make dagger builds have more APMs than the current cap. You could make FASTER combat that would, in the minds of the LA warriors, increase the skill cap. You could also make builds that rotate between HAs and LAs, balancing the need for speed or flexibility in a certain scenario with the desire for slower, bigger damage in another. You could add variation to any aspect of the highest-tier combat, but somehow we keep circling back to LA vs HA.

To address the general correlation between APMs and skill, I'm going to steal the music comparison used by another player here (Sorry I don't remember the thread). I could run my hand down all the keys of a piano and play 100+ notes in a second, but that's not skill. I could rapidly bounce between the same two notes (Essentially LA weaving right now), but very few would consider that skill either. The real skill is in learning the song, all its ebbs and flows, hitting the right TIMING, the right dynamics, etc. Yes, a more skilled player can play faster, but the best players don't just play fast all the time. There's so much more nuance to making something engaging and it's sad to see so many people who simplify it to just one element.

Kwoung

I kind of take issue with everyone that is calling LA Weaving a "skill". It isn't, it is just something someone is physically capable of doing, or not. Yes, there are players that can but don't do it simply because they dislike it and that is their choice. But there are a great many players that are simply incapable of performing the action at all... for even a short period of time. I personally find that to be a poorly thought out system and very prejudicial to those with limiting physical conditions, as this isn't a FPS, which these type of players generally avoid due to their limitations and why they are playing a MMORPG instead. Rewarding players who can click a mouse every .6 seconds... and penalizing others for not being able to, is just garbage design and ESO is the only MMORPG I have ever played that does this.

Amottica

Kwoung wrote: »

I kind of take issue with everyone that is calling LA Weaving a "skill". It isn't, it is just something someone is physically capable of doing, or not. Yes, there are players that can but don't do it simply because they dislike it and that is their choice. But there are a great many players that are simply incapable of performing the action at all... for even a short period of time. I personally find that to be a poorly thought out system and very prejudicial to those with limiting physical conditions, as this isn't a FPS, which these type of players generally avoid due to their limitations and why they are playing a MMORPG instead. Rewarding players who can click a mouse every .6 seconds... and penalizing others for not being able to, is just garbage design and ESO is the only MMORPG I have ever played that does this.

They are using the word skill in the terms that the players have refined their rotation to deliver maximum damage. Part of that does include that it takes more work to reliably execute LA weaves into skills than it does a HA. Granted, someone may choose to do a HA build even though they are very good at the LA weave but that is a choice just as anyone choosing any sort of build for the reasons they do.

In that, and the context of this thread, the most important thing that can be said is "Play as you want" never meant that any build will be equal to any other or even viable for any chosen activity.

Kwoung

Amottica wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I kind of take issue with everyone that is calling LA Weaving a "skill". It isn't, it is just something someone is physically capable of doing, or not. Yes, there are players that can but don't do it simply because they dislike it and that is their choice. But there are a great many players that are simply incapable of performing the action at all... for even a short period of time. I personally find that to be a poorly thought out system and very prejudicial to those with limiting physical conditions, as this isn't a FPS, which these type of players generally avoid due to their limitations and why they are playing a MMORPG instead. Rewarding players who can click a mouse every .6 seconds... and penalizing others for not being able to, is just garbage design and ESO is the only MMORPG I have ever played that does this.

They are using the word skill in the terms that the players have refined their rotation to deliver maximum damage. Part of that does include that it takes more work to reliably execute LA weaves into skills than it does a HA. Granted, someone may choose to do a HA build even though they are very good at the LA weave but that is a choice just as anyone choosing any sort of build for the reasons they do.

In that, and the context of this thread, the most important thing that can be said is "Play as you want" never meant that any build will be equal to any other or even viable for any chosen activity.

Well, if I "want" to play as a sweaty score pusher, as I have in many other games... I can't in ESO. So it really isn't "Play as you want", it is "Play within your physical limitations"... due to ZOS putting a APM mechanic in the game and timing aside, requiring your index finger be clicking madly... constantly. This is something that isn't an issue in any other MMORPG I have played... and is usually reserved for more twitch type gaming titles, which a MMORPG isn't and shouldn't be.

As a matter of fact, in those other games, if they even had a "spammable", it was simply there so you could be casting a skill at all while your main skills were on cooldown... and the spammable generally did very subpar damage.

MudcrabAttack

Ksariyu wrote: »

My other major issue with LA weaving is how overbearing it has become. While there are some key changes that really hurt class and build diversity, I feel that LA Weaving has had one of the greatest impacts. Skills and sets were changed to fit this style, and basic attack cooldowns across weapon types were flattened so they all worked with weaving. It is very difficult to create a unique character when every single element of the game is catered to one specific way of playing.

I just thought I'd share this here, the way Yandir's Might can buff a build without any weaving at all between skills, and using just 1 occasional heavy attack to gain the big weapon damage buff and pick up some ultimate regen.




This result (85% of my pure light attack build) was funny to me since it's a nightblade, a build just begging for tons of light attacks or even heavy attack weaving to maximize the assassin's scourge dps. I like seeing diversity though

Brrrofski

Ksariyu wrote: »

Gone for a few days and this thread got entirely derailed. Nice.

The issue isn't LA weaving. The issue isn't the disparity between HA and LA builds. The issue is the lack of creativity across the ENTIRETY of combat in this game. As I mentioned in the OP, there are ways to add more variety to the game that don't involve HAs at all, or that INCREASE the number of LAs used. In the particular case of weapon speed, you could reasonably make dagger builds have more APMs than the current cap. You could make FASTER combat that would, in the minds of the LA warriors, increase the skill cap. You could also make builds that rotate between HAs and LAs, balancing the need for speed or flexibility in a certain scenario with the desire for slower, bigger damage in another. You could add variation to any aspect of the highest-tier combat, but somehow we keep circling back to LA vs HA.

To address the general correlation between APMs and skill, I'm going to steal the music comparison used by another player here (Sorry I don't remember the thread). I could run my hand down all the keys of a piano and play 100+ notes in a second, but that's not skill. I could rapidly bounce between the same two notes (Essentially LA weaving right now), but very few would consider that skill either. The real skill is in learning the song, all its ebbs and flows, hitting the right TIMING, the right dynamics, etc. Yes, a more skilled player can play faster, but the best players don't just play fast all the time. There's so much more nuance to making something engaging and it's sad to see so many people who simplify it to just one element.

That's a terrible analogy

Running your hand down a piano is compatible to doing the same on a keyboard, or controller

If you want a music comparison, heavy attack builds are happy birthday, and shouldn't get much applause, and light attack builds are like Gaspard de la Nuit. Pulling it off deserves the bigger aknowledment.

It comes down to heavy attack builds being brain dead. Put 3 dots down, hold a button for 8 seconds, repeat.

A good way to highlight this is ask any pvp player. If they're attacked by a group of people in pvp, and one or them is heavy attacking with a lightning staff, which one will they focus first.

99% of them will say the heavy attack dude. Because usually (unless there's a stupid broken proc set in the game at the time), they're the less skilled player and you'll delete them with no problem.

Sorry, but that's how it is. If you see someone mostly heavy attacking, that person will die quick. Probably won't be able to even heal themselves.

LashanW

Kwoung wrote: »

Well, if I "want" to play as a sweaty score pusher, as I have in many other games... I can't in ESO. So it really isn't "Play as you want", it is "Play within your physical limitations"... due to ZOS putting a APM mechanic in the game and timing aside, requiring your index finger be clicking madly... constantly. This is something that isn't an issue in any other MMORPG I have played... and is usually reserved for more twitch type gaming titles, which a MMORPG isn't and shouldn't be.

I have mouse buttons for attacking and blocking swapped. I left click to block, right click to LA/HA. (a habit of mine originating from playing Dark Souls series)

I consider myself pretty good at LA weaving and this setup feels much easier physically.

Raideen

Kwoung wrote: »

I kind of take issue with everyone that is calling LA Weaving a "skill". It isn't, it is just something someone is physically capable of doing, or not. Yes, there are players that can but don't do it simply because they dislike it and that is their choice. But there are a great many players that are simply incapable of performing the action at all... for even a short period of time. I personally find that to be a poorly thought out system and very prejudicial to those with limiting physical conditions, as this isn't a FPS, which these type of players generally avoid due to their limitations and why they are playing a MMORPG instead. Rewarding players who can click a mouse every .6 seconds... and penalizing others for not being able to, is just garbage design and ESO is the only MMORPG I have ever played that does this.

Agreed 100%

Your post got me to thinking about when I try to light attack weave. Number one, I hate it. Its not comfortable and so I'd rather not do it, but at the same time I hate being ridiculed for doing low DPS in dungeons and some of my earliest experiences in ESO was a fair amount of beratement from other players at the end of dungeons and you know what they say, first impressions last.

Outside of being physically uncomfortable, I think the reason I do not like light attack weaving is that it feels like it works best in static encounters. I am used to World of Warcraft where I am managing 50 keybinds and cooldowns and using the attack that best fits the immediate encounter, moving all over the playfield but still able to land a "rotation". In ESO, I feel like less of this takes place and that I should be weaving at all times, even when things get hectic and a lot of moving is required, but when things get hectic my brain switches gears and I start thinking of abilities to use to "counter" whatever I face and I forget to weave and once I forget to weave, I often just stop. I have never been able to personally make it muscle memory.

Maybe I am just terrible at action combat. Perhaps I do not possess the "skill" to move around the playfield and alternate between keyboard button presses and mouse button presses, I don't know....but what I do know is that I am not engaged with combat in ESO, never have been and this is probably why I spend most of my time in housing except that a lot of what I desire to accomplish in housing often means running dungeons.

Brrrofski

Ksariyu wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

I can pull off a proper rotation. And ZOS will never change it. What would I have to be emotional about?

[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

Kessra

Amottica wrote: »

They are using the word skill in the terms that the players have refined their rotation to deliver maximum damage. Part of that does include that it takes more work to reliably execute LA weaves into skills than it does a HA.

So you are basically saying people that prefer HA builds have it easier because they do not have to have exact timing on their HA? Using the skill following the HA to early and you have a medium attack, using the skill to slow will start the ramp-up of the next HA and therefore cost precious time. So people still need to have some kind of timing here. So please stop that argument right there.

The difference here is clearly that on using LA rotation allows you to burst out skills more often and thus have essentially more abilities to look for on applying compared to HA rotations. That is also the sole reason why LA rotations do more damage over all because in the same time where you are able to build up a HA you can unleash 2 LA and 2 skills. So even if a HA would do twice as much damage than a LA you still miss out on the damage (and/or buff) the 2nd skill produces. A viable change here would be to increase the damage of a skill used after a heavy attack to be increased by 50%, or by 100% after each 2nd HA or the like.

And about timing, I'm pretty sure there are lots of people out there who use some kind of "macros" that either "play" the whole rotation on a single button press or at least add in LA's in front of skills. While not officially allowed, in PvE no-one really cares. The only part where this really matters is PvP and here you can't really prevent users from LA weaving anyway and HA rotations aren't usable due to the burst-potential of certain classes in combination with LA.

Soulshine

According to some of the comments here, it would seem every trial healer in this game is apparently unskilled and "brain dead" since we have long been forced into wearing HA attack sets which support the very damage which DDs claim as totally their own.

If you think it is brainless to sustain perfect uptimes of major slayer via HAs, while still maintaining perfect uptimes of minor berserk, providing resources, healing, and properly handling all the mechanics while moving, and LA to boot before each skill, then I'd say those people don't know what they are talking about.

Brrrofski

Soulshine wrote: »

According to some of the comments here, it would seem every trial healer in this game is apparently unskilled and "brain dead" since we have long been forced into wearing HA attack sets which support the very damage which DDs claim as totally their own.

If you think it is brainless to sustain perfect uptimes of major slayer via HAs, while still maintaining perfect uptimes of minor berserk, providing resources, healing, and properly handling all the mechanics while moving, and LA to boot before each skill, then I'd say those people don't know what they are talking about.

Nobody said that about healers though?

It's apples and oranges.

A healer does more than put down wall, cast class dot, cast class dot, hold heavy attack for 8 seconds. Cast channeled acceleration every 3 rotations.

Ksariyu

Honestly, mods, can you please close this thread? It's so far off topic now and then notifications are annoying.

Amottica

Kessra wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

They are using the word skill in the terms that the players have refined their rotation to deliver maximum damage. Part of that does include that it takes more work to reliably execute LA weaves into skills than it does a HA.

So you are basically saying people that prefer HA builds have it easier because they do not have to have exact timing on their HA? Using the skill following the HA to early and you have a medium attack, using the skill to slow will start the ramp-up of the next HA and therefore cost precious time. So people still need to have some kind of timing here. So please stop that argument right there.

The difference here is clearly that on using LA rotation allows you to burst out skills more often and thus have essentially more abilities to look for on applying compared to HA rotations. That is also the sole reason why LA rotations do more damage over all because in the same time where you are able to build up a HA you can unleash 2 LA and 2 skills. So even if a HA would do twice as much damage than a LA you still miss out on the damage (and/or buff) the 2nd skill produces. A viable change here would be to increase the damage of a skill used after a heavy attack to be increased by 50%, or by 100% after each 2nd HA or the like.

And about timing, I'm pretty sure there are lots of people out there who use some kind of "macros" that either "play" the whole rotation on a single button press or at least add in LA's in front of skills. While not officially allowed, in PvE no-one really cares. The only part where this really matters is PvP and here you can't really prevent users from LA weaving anyway and HA rotations aren't usable due to the burst-potential of certain classes in combination with LA.

What was edited out of my comment you quoted.

In that, and the context of this thread, the most important thing that can be said is "Play as you want" never meant that any build will be equal to any other or even viable for any chosen activity.

That is the intended design of the game, that not every build will be equal.

And as I have stated previously, a HA build uses about half as many skills per minute that a LA weave does. The damage from skills is more powerful than even a LA and should always be more powerful than any basic attack. As such the HA build should not perform on par. It tended to not perform on par with a LA build even before LAs were buffed. It would be a bad game design for a HA to be more powerful than damage skills which is what is being asked in this thread.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Try and Light attack weave with the Vampire spammable, you cannot do it.

Brrrofski

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Try and Light attack weave with the Vampire spammable, you cannot do it.

Yes you can, quite easily.

master_vanargand

LA weaving is a lot of fun.
It's similar to a fighting game.

Did you know that Street Fighter 2's cancel attack was originally a bug?

Such a great idea comes from chance.
I think the ESO combat system is great.

Kessra

"Amottica wrote: »

It would be a bad game design for a HA to be more powerful than damage skills which is what is being asked in this thread.

Why? Because you give players more options to play how they want? And I didn't claim HA should be more powerful than skills, but that they could buff up the damage done of these to be more bursty and thus compensate for the lack of used skills in the same time window. HA builds are at a clear disadvantage already in PvP as you basically can't really react to your opponent quickly and are more or less open for attacks in that time window and always exposed to the danger of being CC'ed/interrupted and thus not do any damage at all. In terms of risk and reward, LA weaving has less risks than HA rotations but provide much more potential than the latter one. IMO if you're doing HA you shouldn't be allowed to move at all and on building up HA's one should be unstealthed also to remove that stealth-modifier bonus to prevent one-shots.

Most people will naturally assume that HAs should produce at least equal if not even more damage after all, as you invested much more time into the building-up phase. Through buffing the damage that comes after a HA , or after every 2nd HA at least almost up to equal damage should be achievable.

Currently, if you want to play as high-end DD your only chance to deal top-notch DPS is by adopting to the LA weaving style which might lead some people to cheat in order to avoid having to press LA before each of their skills and instead automatically "do LA" before each skill through the usage of macro or the like. It's cheating as here 3rd party tools or certain hardware modifiers are used. And yes, there are even ways to achieve something similar on consoles. I'm all for that the right "rotation" used should be the enabler for high DPS but the lack of LA/HA or a .65 usage of these should not result in a DPS loss of up to 30k or more when skills are the important bits of your rotation. DPS should not be tide that closely to the connection speed you have but more to the skill-selection you did upfront and the order you execute these. Still people with high latency have troubles getting off their LA correctly, especially when latency is fluctuating, and therefore suffer a notable DPS loss.

In the end, a game that advertises itself as play as you want should have multiple viable ways to perform similar DPS otherwise people will just blindly following the best available meta.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We are going to go ahead and close this thread as per the request of the OP.

Thank you for your understanding!