I don’t mind too much, I just wish the fake tank would at least keep the boss still so the other three players AOE abilities would be doing something lol

etchedpixels wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

When you mean 'know better' at 1000 cp you can solo normal dungeons, so technically they do. The only issue is where there is no communication in a party or if someone speeds ahead despite being asked by the team not to.

And if they fixed the toxic transmute crystal problem by capping it, moving it per account or allowing solo randoms it would go away - they are toxic people, but the fundamental problem is that ZOS inflicts their toxic behaviour on the rest of us. So it's easy to fix but ZOS don't seem to care.

people are not 'toxic' because they are attracted to a reward. Very rarely do issues arise when someone advises they are doing a quest. What's toxic is people failing to communicate and then creating drama.

I started tanking to avoid fake tanks, and never looked back.
Now I also have to slot heals because of fake healers... and I keep finding myself out of breath (stamina) because of people rushing through the dungeons. Can't win, really. I'ts just people being people, some when they find themselves with strangers do not feel the need to be considerate.

I generally don't have too many problems with speedtanks in normal dungeons, since I am only visiting the normal dungeons on DPS whenever I need these 10 Transmute Crystals, and I don't want to risk getting stranded with a very low DPS group. (I honestly mind abysmal DPS more in the low-end content, because holding the Crypt of Hearts I bosses still for 10 minutes is just mind-numbingly boring.)

However, what I mind is if the speedfanks contribute smaller number to the party DPS than I would be on one of my tanks. If they are doing e.g. 10k DPS, then they maim their team (e.g. by not providing additional penetration, and not stacking the mobs) more than they help. I see such fake tanks quite often - and frankly, if additional DD lowers the total DPS, they should consider instead attempting to do a (very low performing) support role for the run. Just inflicting a Major Breach and turning the boss away is relatively straightforward and doesn't require tanking experience.

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

people are not 'toxic' because they are attracted to a reward. Very rarely do issues arise when someone advises they are doing a quest. What's toxic is people failing to communicate and then creating drama.

It's toxic because there are people with totally conflicting goals and self interests being unnecexsarily pushed into the same queue. That's down to poor game design. You can make any group environment toxic with the wrong mix of incentives.

You also can't assume people will communicate, and even if they did it doesn't alter the fact one person wants to do the quest, two want to just kill the end boss and the other one wants to kill them all. Plus on EU there's the small matter of language. I might be in a group of four without a common language so how are we going to communicate ?

And some people are toxic. When the first person messages the group "quest", and immediately gets a response of "no", but framed in words not permitted on the forum, followed by them trying to vote to kick the quester that's toxic players. Ditto the (probably fake) tank who appears, sees the rest of the group are below level 30 and quits.

As to the other comment above about queue length - the queues were no worse before the transmute crystal change.

Elsonso wrote: »

This isn't why things are toxic. People can have conflicting goals without being toxic. Toxic is the anti-social manner in which people behave towards others, and that is a choice they make, not the game.

And you can't fix the people so you fix the system. You either have rules to prevent them behaving like that with punishments, or you have an environment where they go do it without causing problems to others. Given the farce trying to punish people for being annoying in dungeons would be I'm suggesting the other option.

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

DCUO has an interesting way of dealing with groups that don't have the proper makeup. If you have no tank, the entire group gets a defense buff. If you have no healer, the group gets a health recovery buff. I'm wondering if something like this could work for ESO.

@vivisectvib16_ESO

I have seen similar but done differently, in other games. They placed "healing pots" around the room for boss fights though players needed to activate them when the group needed a heal which means people needed to pay attention. That is sometimes in short supply in GF groups leaving the better player which is probably the better DPS having to make sure the group stays healed. With some fights groups still had difficulty but it had more to do with paying attention, not the design of the instance. It is still better than the buffs mentioned.

Of course, this is on the easier difficulty, not something that should be on veteran difficulty.

Elsonso wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

people are not 'toxic' because they are attracted to a reward. Very rarely do issues arise when someone advises they are doing a quest. What's toxic is people failing to communicate and then creating drama.

It's toxic because there are people with totally conflicting goals and self interests being unnecexsarily pushed into the same queue. That's down to poor game design. You can make any group environment toxic with the wrong mix of incentives.

This isn't why things are toxic. People can have conflicting goals without being toxic. Toxic is the anti-social manner in which people behave towards others, and that is a choice they make, not the game.

Exactly. Its a mmorpg, people will have different goals but work together. A segment of modern culture cant see beyond their own instant needs or know how to communicate and/or negotiate - that's a root cause of toxicity in this case. Not everything is a system to be fixed and people would be less toxic if they took responsibility for their own actions and behaviours. Empathy and tolerance.

Damage meters only appears to favor the fake role because they either ran ahead, let the rest of the group die, or let them have aggro so they had to avoid damage instead of doing DPS. This is a mistake many fake-role players make. Not allowing others to do DPS does not mean one person did more or all the DPS, they only caused the other players to do less.
As a real tank I can also do most DPS with my 1.9k DPS. I would only have to not aggro and I'll end up on top. This is why I feel DPS meters should not be in-game. Players have become slaves to the instruments instead of self-functioning beings.

Fake roles do not help queue's. They actually cause many players to have to go through more than one queue. Plenty of players will always be running dungeons, this was also the case before the fake role thing started. Fake roles are toxic, because even though it is a random, they signed up for a role they are not willing to perform. That by itself is already toxic, as that is a clear choice made by those players before even entering a dungeon. The other three players should not have to accept cheaters, who clearly do not respect the other three players with them.

Speedrunners are toxic because they waste three other player's time, over their own. This is not how groupcontent should work. By denying three players loot and a real dungeon experience, they are basically breaking the game. In an extremely toxic way.

So no, fake roles and speedrunners should not be accepted. And ZOS should fix these issues ASAP, before more and more players leave the game due to the toxic environment some selfish players have created.

I'm playing solo a lot more and really enjoying the serenity 😊😊😊

I am not sure anymore where to draw line? Is it okay as long as it's faster?

RN is not a problem for fake tanks (y dont like fake healers more in RN as some of my DD chars has no any self healing).
But running undaunted vet dailies with fake tanks (nonDLC ones) is really annoying. As instead of focusing on DPSing and rotation you are bennyhilling around and your AoEs are ineffective cause bosses are roaming around. So making vets with fake tanks are much more slower. And 3 DDs make less dmg then 2DD and tank.

Xebov wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

It's toxic because there are people with totally conflicting goals and self interests being unnecexsarily pushed into the same queue. That's down to poor game design. You can make any group environment toxic with the wrong mix of incentives.

That has nothing to do with something being toxic. [...] What you describe is ppl failing to communicate propperly.

I don't think it is communications, either. I see people who are very unwilling to bend to someone else's desires, but seem OK when other people bend to theirs. I also see the people who just don't care what others do or think and go about their business like no one else is there. At that point, communication is just added drama sprinkled on an already bad situation.

It was suggested above (and I paraphrase) that it is the place of ZOS to punish these people, but this is not the answer. Speed running is not against the rules. Doing dungeons slowly is not against the rules. Ignoring other players in the dungeon is not against the rules.

ZOS can, and probably should, do something about dungeons that allow quirky shortcuts past bosses, but they have doubled down on focusing dungeon and PUG game play on end boss farming. If ZOS wants to design their game so that we go straight to dessert as soon as the first person gets that far, that is what they want to do. It helps keep the party together when one player skips everything and goes right for the dessert. I don't expect them to be thinking about punishing those people. They just handed them a massive reward for doing it.

Fizzyapple wrote: »

I feel that most of the people who fake tank wouldn't say that even if they knew for certain that we wouldn't mind.

i used to do that before i had experience "fake" tanking all the DLC dungs, and funnily enough, i never got kicked over that. i only ever got kicked once while fake tanking, and to this day i'm still not sure why. one groupmate stood in stupid & obviously died, and i think that must have triggered a "tank is trash cause im dead" kind of instinct. thankfully it was just the first boss & all it did was confuse me to the point i thought i accidentally left the group or something.