fake tanks, speedrunning & you

Muttsmutt

i'd like to touch on this hotly debated topic, as there's a simple five-step program to make everybody happy.
i believe that there is such a thing as a competent, non-disruptive speedrunning fake tank. (let's just call them speedfanks for ease, henceforth)
now, before y'all grab your pitchforks, let me say my piece. starting from the beginning...

why do people fake tank & speedrun random normal dungeons?
simply put, time & efficiency. speedfanks value their time & don't wish to spend more of it on random normals than they have to. as a reasonable human being, you cannot impose upon somebody else to value their time less & do things less efficiently. (as long as they aren't harming you in any way- but the competent speedfank won't, as you'll see by the end)
slotting as a dps not only leads to a longer queue time, but possibly to a longer dungeon completion time as well- because unless you get matched with another speedfank, you'll be one DPS player down. there is absolutely no need for a real, optimized tank in any normal dungeon. however, there are three core things that a tank has to do regardless of content difficulty...

what does a tank actually need to do in a normal dungeon?
hold aggro, debuff boss, and don't die. (and perhaps some minor mechanics for some dungeons... it's normal after all)
therefore, a fake tank needs to fulfill three prerequisites- slot a taunt; slot major breach; slot self-sustain.
if all three of these conditions are met- and it's really not that hard- the only difference between a real tank and a fake tank, in a normal dungeon, is that the group DPS will be higher with the fake tank. that seems like, as far as normal dungeons are concerned, there's no reason you'd want a real tank in your group over a fake tank then, right? until...

oh no, the speedfank is soloing the second boss already and i haven't even finished loading yet!
this here's the real sticker & why speedfanks are hated.
the speedfank has to fulfill three infinitely more difficult prerequisites- look at the chat; comprehend basic english; listen to the other human beings in the group.
somewhere between these three, many speedfanks fail & thus lead to the entirety of their kin to be dismissed as "ruiners of the great fun we would have had otherwise".
there's no cure for fools. however, a reasonable human being (the competent speedfank, as ideal of this thread) will do the absolute minimum of checking the chat to see if anybody said anything that would denote they are not consenting to the speed. or, even better- the competent speedfank shall wait before every boss for the rest of the group to arrive.

that doesn't sound so bad now! what do i do if i get one of them speedfanks in my group, then?
silence is agreement, when it comes to speedfanks. if you do not consent to the speed for any reason, communicate that.
though please consider that if you, for some reason, find yourself in a random normal and wanting to do the dungeon quest in story mode, as in, reading all dialgoue and ooh-ing and aah-ing at everything- maybe random normals isn't the place to do so. perhaps your group will accomodate, yet they have no obligation to- because just as it is inconsiderate of them to rush you through your story mode without consent, it's also inconsiderate of you to use up their time without consent. either end of the speed spectrum can be inconsiderate for the rest of your group members. if you want to do slow story mode in group dungeons, better to ask a guldie, or a friend, to come with you. maybe even ask the speedfank! if all else fails, git gud, solo normals, and become the speedfank.

just give me the tl;dr.
if speedfank slots taunt, breach, and doesn't die, speedfank is a perfectly adequate tank for random normals.
if speedfank waits for everybody to arrive before boss & checks chats to see if anybody is doing the quest, speedfank is not disrupting anybody else in the group.
then, speedfank is not a problem.
if you're a speedfank, make sure you're doing all these.
if you're faced with a speedfank, make sure you communicate with them if you're non-consenting to their speed.
if speedfank can't read, or doesn't want to waste a precious extra minute or two to be courteous to their groupmates, then speedfank is a bad person & unfortunately nobody has yet found the cure to summarily remove the bad in bad people.

obvious as this may sound, some forumgoers seem to forget & instead attribute all evil to speedfanking as a concept, which is simply false. remember:
the problem isn't fake tanking & speedrunning. a player can do those and still be considerate to the rest of the group.
the problem is inconsiderate people.

ixthUA

Fake tanks are very rare in vet dungeons, but fake DDs are very common. For true dungeon experience, switch to vet!

SkaraMinoc

I did 10 minute Falkreath Normal speed runs as a fake tank when farming Ironblood for PvP healing. My pugs loved me and couldn't believe how fast we cleared. 9 out of 10 times players just want the daily random xp.

Fake tanking in normal dungeons isn't a problem in my opinion. Just be considerate of new players questing.

Muttsmutt

ixthUA wrote: »

Fake tanks are very rare in vet dungeons, but fake DDs are very common. For true dungeon experience, switch to vet!

"i'm a fake tank because you're a fake DD" is a line i'm still waiting to have the chance to say.

of course, for the true dungeon experience, vet is the way to go. this is not about the true dungeon experience.
this is all about speed & efficiency for random normals, while also not being inconsiderate.

N3CR01

ixthUA wrote: »

Fake tanks are very rare in vet dungeons, but fake DDs are very common. For true dungeon experience, switch to vet!

I only run vet dungeons on my tank and the amount of peoples who don't let me lead...
They just run thru as fast as they can then blame me when they die for not keeping up...

Idiots.

Giraffon

So if you didn't get through OP's whole post (maybe I didn't either), the short version is:

If you pick a tank role, be sure you actually CAN tank, wait for the whole group before engaging bosses, and don't be a jerk. Not every group needs a tank, but if you are in one that does, slow down and be the tank.

Grandchamp1989

It is so, so easy to put on 1-2 skills and, to the most basic degree, fulfill the minimum requirements for the tank role.

Literally Breach (Ele drain for mag - Caltrops for Stam)
Taunt (inner rage)
Don't die

That is such a small requirement to have insta que. I really think you're kinda jerk if you hold other people in such a small regard you don't even want to fulfill the bare minimum of the role you qued for.

What you gain FAR OUTWEIGHT the little effort you have to put into it.

Artim_X

why do people fake tank & speedrun random normal dungeons?
In my experience any normal dungeon run with even 1 proper DPS player (does enough damage for vet runs) will make the run a speedrun regardless of who is in the party. Also you're assuming that only decent DPS queue as fake tanks when realistically there is always the possibility to get into a group with 2 decent DPS, and actual healer, and a tank.


what does a tank actually need to do in a normal dungeon?
IMO for normal dungeons as long as a player taunts priority enemies (bosses and enemies that one-shots), doesn't let the boss move around too much, and does not die then that player is a tank regardless of how high their damage is. Remember we used to be able to queue for multiple roles. No one will complain about a tank that does their role and brings DPS to the table. If a healer is present then they will ideally offer sustain and debuffs. If the healer is fake then there is already enough damage present even without debuffs being slotted. In normal dungeons debuffs are nice to have, but are not a must have.

oh no, the speedfank is soloing the second boss already and i haven't even finished loading yet!
In my experience as long as everyone tank or DPS kills everything they aggro along the way and wait for others before engaging a boss, the rest of the group will not have a problem.

that doesn't sound so bad now! what do i do if i get one of them speedfanks in my group, then?
Pretty much if no one says anything then whatever people are doing is fine. Keep in mind that random normal isn't always random for everyone. A player could have queued for a specific dungeon and put into a group of players that queued for random. As you mention if they're is an issue they should express it in chat. Also not all normals are soloable due to forced group mechanics, particularly the ones in boss fights where if no one interrupts or does a mechanic you die. There is also a nonverbal way to express your concerns about a groupmate. Initiating a vote to kick gives the other group members a chance to overcome the bystander effect and actual do something about a player that is messing up the run.

just give me the tl;dr.
Remember if you do the minimum requirements of a tank in a normal run you are not a fake tank regardless of how much DPS you do. Most people take issue with true fakes that go in with their DPS build without taunt and leaving leftover enemies in their wake. Once again group chat or initiating a kick can help resolve issues a group has with a group member.

Kessra

The problem is NOT that people queue as tank but are truely DDs, but that fake tanks rarely hold agro of the mobs they are supposed to tank. Usually when I queue as DD, which is not that often as I mainly play tanks and healers, I end up tanking the boss in 90% of the cases as the "tank" did not care at all. This is what actually p*sses me off. I don't care if he takes more damage or the like but at least he should hold agro of the mobs he's supposed to tank.

Also the wording in some statements leave a smell of elitist behavior that is put in to justify rude behavior. How many times have I been to dungeons where 1 or 2 guys asked for the optional bosses which I agreed to do for them, even though it takes a bit longer, though one guy in the group didn't want to and rushed through to the next boss which ported us right to the boss even though we were close to pull the optional boss. This is just how one guy imposes his game-style onto others and therefore might ruin the game experience of others. This is not an MMO where people play together to reach a certain goal, this is one against the others and I can really understand the sentiment of the players who argue against the rush mentality.

I don't know why people don't form groups beforehand, like in the "good old times" and then queue for dungeons. And this relates to both ends of the spectrum. Most people aren't interested in the story line, especially after the 100th time. If they group up with similar-minded people no-one will complain. The problem arises just if you group up with people you don't know that have different approaches and expectations to the game. But please, stop justifying rude behavior with this overly narrow-mindset excuse of elitist behavior.

Gundug

one very important tanking skill that always seems to be ignored is crowd control and positioning. If you as a tank do not have a chain, at the minimum, you should be ensuring you have initial aggro on any mobs, which means applying damage on them before anyone else, and you should be sight pulling mobs whenever possible so they are clustered up tightly for quick killing. I see a lot of tanks, especially fake DD tanks who have no real conception of how to tank efficiently, that leave stragglers scattered all over the area, making fights take longer than they need to, and causing everyone to waste resources going after them individually.

Slot a chain and drag in loose mobs. Look for areas where you can turn a corner and force all the mobs to follow, stacking themselves up.

ixthUA

Muttsmutt wrote: »

this is all about speed & efficiency for random normals, while also not being inconsiderate.

People who just want the reward tend to do it in the fastest way, usually neglecting others.
People who want social + PVE experience tend to avoid places where they can meet previous type of people, thus eventually going to vet versions of dungeons, or running with guildmates.

Bobby_V_Rockit

We had a fake healer in one today, I sat back and let them die at a boss around halfway, because fudge em. They rage quit and I, the leader, replaced them with Mirri and we completed the job with no more deaths and surprisingly good time

SkillzMFG

Seeing as you can solo most normal dungeons at higher CPs, nobody really cares I think.

M0ntie

Actually they do care - and if you read any of the hundreds of posts on the subject of fake tanking you'd know a lot of people do.

I agree with the OP. Basically for a random normal I don't care how the tank is spec'd, so long as they do the job they signed up for which is at a minimum to hold aggro on the big adds. I waited the time to queue as a role I could fulfil, so why should I also be tanking because the person who queued as tank isn't doing their job?

Ulfhethinn

Muttsmutt wrote: »

silence is agreement

No. Absolutely not. Not in speedrunning, not in anything.

summ0004

As long as they hold aggro and have a taunt, then I dont mind.

What pisses me off is when its just a normal DD with no taunt, and then the boss is my face and I then cant perform my role which is to do damage.

spartaxoxo

In my opinion

The only the requirement of a fake tank is to hold aggro on dangerous mobs. That's it.

The only requirement of a fake healer is to occasionally top people's health up so they don't die.

The only requirement of the dps is to have enough dps to pass any dps checks in the dungeons they are eligible for.

And all group members should never engage a needed boss without all party members present. That's not a role requirement just a basic group one.

If you do these bare minimum things, then you're fine. As long as they are bringing the bare minimum things they have agreed to do in group finding, I really don't care what else they do.

Obsidian3

Fake Healers are more of a problem in DLC Normals. Ran Depths of Malatar with a fake healer, luckily we all had self heals so it wasn't too big an issue.

Sallymen

Fake tanks are the product of fake DPS. I am not holding a boss as a tank for 5 straight minutes.

seldomseenkd

Fake tanks who bring decent DPS are fine. In most normals this is a more optimal group setup imo.

But far more common are fake tanks who are also doing negligible dps. These players are freeloaders.

tomfant

PUGging BDV is currently the worst experience you can have in group dungs cause everyone and their mother is farming Kinra's. In 98% you'll get fake healer and fake tank running straight to the endboss. It's not fun.

Jeremy

Sallymen wrote: »

Fake tanks are the product of fake DPS. I am not holding a boss as a tank for 5 straight minutes.

A whole 5 minutes.

Just goes to show generational changes. Back when MMORPGs first came out a 10 minute boss fight was like a mini boss. End bosses could last half an hour or more. I'm not saying whether this change is good or bad mind you. I just think it's interesting just how much people's perceptions of what constitutes a long boss fight has changed over the years.

Call_of_Red_Mountain

I speedrun normal dungeons. But always help if i see that someone typed "Need quest" in text chat.

kmcaj

Just get a group

Soulshine

Muttsmutt wrote: »

i'd like to touch on this hotly debated topic, as there's a simple five-step program to make everybody happy.
i believe that there is such a thing as a competent, non-disruptive speedrunning fake tank. (let's just call them speedfanks for ease, henceforth)
now, before y'all grab your pitchforks, let me say my piece. starting from the beginning...

why do people fake tank & speedrun random normal dungeons?
simply put, time & efficiency. speedfanks value their time & don't wish to spend more of it on random normals than they have to. as a reasonable human being, you cannot impose upon somebody else to value their time less & do things less efficiently. (as long as they aren't harming you in any way- but the competent speedfank won't, as you'll see by the end)
slotting as a dps not only leads to a longer queue time, but possibly to a longer dungeon completion time as well- because unless you get matched with another speedfank, you'll be one DPS player down. there is absolutely no need for a real, optimized tank in any normal dungeon. however, there are three core things that a tank has to do regardless of content difficulty...

what does a tank actually need to do in a normal dungeon?
hold aggro, debuff boss, and don't die. (and perhaps some minor mechanics for some dungeons... it's normal after all)
therefore, a fake tank needs to fulfill three prerequisites- slot a taunt; slot major breach; slot self-sustain.
if all three of these conditions are met- and it's really not that hard- the only difference between a real tank and a fake tank, in a normal dungeon, is that the group DPS will be higher with the fake tank. that seems like, as far as normal dungeons are concerned, there's no reason you'd want a real tank in your group over a fake tank then, right? until...

oh no, the speedfank is soloing the second boss already and i haven't even finished loading yet!
this here's the real sticker & why speedfanks are hated.
the speedfank has to fulfill three infinitely more difficult prerequisites- look at the chat; comprehend basic english; listen to the other human beings in the group.
somewhere between these three, many speedfanks fail & thus lead to the entirety of their kin to be dismissed as "ruiners of the great fun we would have had otherwise".
there's no cure for fools. however, a reasonable human being (the competent speedfank, as ideal of this thread) will do the absolute minimum of checking the chat to see if anybody said anything that would denote they are not consenting to the speed. or, even better- the competent speedfank shall wait before every boss for the rest of the group to arrive.

that doesn't sound so bad now! what do i do if i get one of them speedfanks in my group, then?
silence is agreement, when it comes to speedfanks. if you do not consent to the speed for any reason, communicate that.
though please consider that if you, for some reason, find yourself in a random normal and wanting to do the dungeon quest in story mode, as in, reading all dialgoue and ooh-ing and aah-ing at everything- maybe random normals isn't the place to do so. perhaps your group will accomodate, yet they have no obligation to- because just as it is inconsiderate of them to rush you through your story mode without consent, it's also inconsiderate of you to use up their time without consent. either end of the speed spectrum can be inconsiderate for the rest of your group members. if you want to do slow story mode in group dungeons, better to ask a guldie, or a friend, to come with you. maybe even ask the speedfank! if all else fails, git gud, solo normals, and become the speedfank.

just give me the tl;dr.
if speedfank slots taunt, breach, and doesn't die, speedfank is a perfectly adequate tank for random normals.
if speedfank waits for everybody to arrive before boss & checks chats to see if anybody is doing the quest, speedfank is not disrupting anybody else in the group.
then, speedfank is not a problem.
if you're a speedfank, make sure you're doing all these.
if you're faced with a speedfank, make sure you communicate with them if you're non-consenting to their speed.
if speedfank can't read, or doesn't want to waste a precious extra minute or two to be courteous to their groupmates, then speedfank is a bad person & unfortunately nobody has yet found the cure to summarily remove the bad in bad people.

obvious as this may sound, some forumgoers seem to forget & instead attribute all evil to speedfanking as a concept, which is simply false. remember:
the problem isn't fake tanking & speedrunning. a player can do those and still be considerate to the rest of the group.
the problem is inconsiderate people.

you can add not roll-dodge, hop like a crazy person, and kite all over creation so the rest of us can actually kill the bosses in question not waste buffs and utlimates, then I would agree.

Soulshine

kmcaj wrote: »

Just get a group

Amen. It is easily the simplest solution to everything but people just want to make problems where there shouldn't be.

Random means "random" - accept that or don't do it.

kargen27

A guild mate converted his Necro to tank and asked if I wanted to run a normal random with him so he could try it out before doing vet stuff. I was on my healer. We both are really high CP and as it turns out could easily solo the dungeons we got.

When we queued we got a level 12 DPS and a level 14 tank because my friend forgot to change his role. We of course got an easy dungeon and they both had quest. My friend typed take your time and listen to the dialog if you want. So they did. We didn't get to test my friends tank and I ended up switching to DPS and back barring breath of life but all was good.

Finished that one and as a group queued again. Then did a third dungeon with my friend bringing an alt in. Anyway we did three dungeons that two of us had soloed many times. The new players were able to listen to all the dialog.

After the third one typed "dungeons are hella fun" and I'm guessing he is looking forward to running more. My friend answered lots of questions, he is more patient about that kind of thing than I am. And they both joined a guild he is in that specifically helps new players.
If they had been put in with a speed runner on that first run I'm not sure they would have come out thinking dungeons are fun. That is why when I queue I always assume it is going to take time. I'm usually on a healer and I stick with the slowest most the time.

kargen27

Soulshine wrote: »

kmcaj wrote: »

Just get a group

Amen. It is easily the simplest solution to everything but people just want to make problems where there shouldn't be.

Random means "random" - accept that or don't do it.

But who were they talking to?

Want to speed run? Get a group.

Want to do quest? Get a group.

I'm thinking if you want to skip content get a group.

Soulshine

kargen27 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

kmcaj wrote: »

Just get a group

Amen. It is easily the simplest solution to everything but people just want to make problems where there shouldn't be.

Random means "random" - accept that or don't do it.

But who were they talking to?

Want to speed run? Get a group.

Want to do quest? Get a group.

I'm thinking if you want to skip content get a group.

I have said this before on the many multiple threads about this. Apply it across the board. Yes, get a group -- whatever your gripe about randoms happens to be ---- if you can't or don't want to deal with what may happen. In those cases just make your own group and stop expecting random people to do what you want.

neferpitou73

Soulshine wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

kmcaj wrote: »

Just get a group

Amen. It is easily the simplest solution to everything but people just want to make problems where there shouldn't be.

Random means "random" - accept that or don't do it.

But who were they talking to?

Want to speed run? Get a group.

Want to do quest? Get a group.

I'm thinking if you want to skip content get a group.

I have said this before on the many multiple threads about this. Apply it across the board. Yes, get a group -- whatever your gripe about randoms happens to be ---- if you can't or don't want to deal with what may happen. In those cases just make your own group and stop expecting random people to do what you want.

I can't agree with those post enough.

moleculardrugs

I think having the option to opt-in for DPS-pure or 3-DPS 1-Healer for normal dungeons should be a thing. Like it's normal, so most likely we'll breeze through it (long time players).

Perhaps add in that at least 1 person needs to be of high CP for the randomized/non-segregating dungeon selection protocol and that could help with everything too.

Or they could just offer this for the base dungeons, not the DLC ones. So DSC, FG, SC, etc etc. Then it'll be basically new players and longer-term players, not having to wait a long time and also getting to play together to maybe learn from the vets and then also make people participate more in rnDD, because honestly, 8/18 of my toons aren't tanks or healers so I don't play with them when it comes to the dailies. I have to queue for 15-30 mins, on average my queue is more like 10-15 mins but those are the extreme values I've noticed.