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fake tanks, speedrunning & you
Muttsmutt
✭✭✭✭✭
i'd like to touch on this hotly debated topic, as there's a simple five-step program to make everybody happy.
i believe that there is such a thing as a competent, non-disruptive speedrunning fake tank. (let's just call them speedfanks for ease, henceforth)
now, before y'all grab your pitchforks, let me say my piece. starting from the beginning...
why do people fake tank & speedrun random normal dungeons?
simply put, time & efficiency. speedfanks value their time & don't wish to spend more of it on random normals than they have to. as a reasonable human being, you cannot impose upon somebody else to value their time less & do things less efficiently. (as long as they aren't harming you in any way- but the competent speedfank won't, as you'll see by the end)
slotting as a dps not only leads to a longer queue time, but possibly to a longer dungeon completion time as well- because unless you get matched with another speedfank, you'll be one DPS player down. there is absolutely no need for a real, optimized tank in any normal dungeon. however, there are three core things that a tank has to do regardless of content difficulty...
what does a tank actually need to do in a normal dungeon?
hold aggro, debuff boss, and don't die. (and perhaps some minor mechanics for some dungeons... it's normal after all)
therefore, a fake tank needs to fulfill three prerequisites- slot a taunt; slot major breach; slot self-sustain.
if all three of these conditions are met- and it's really not that hard- the only difference between a real tank and a fake tank, in a normal dungeon, is that the group DPS will be higher with the fake tank. that seems like, as far as normal dungeons are concerned, there's no reason you'd want a real tank in your group over a fake tank then, right? until...
oh no, the speedfank is soloing the second boss already and i haven't even finished loading yet!
this here's the real sticker & why speedfanks are hated.
the speedfank has to fulfill three infinitely more difficult prerequisites- look at the chat; comprehend basic english; listen to the other human beings in the group.
somewhere between these three, many speedfanks fail & thus lead to the entirety of their kin to be dismissed as "ruiners of the great fun we would have had otherwise".
there's no cure for fools. however, a reasonable human being (the competent speedfank, as ideal of this thread) will do the absolute minimum of checking the chat to see if anybody said anything that would denote they are not consenting to the speed. or, even better- the competent speedfank shall wait before every boss for the rest of the group to arrive.
that doesn't sound so bad now! what do i do if i get one of them speedfanks in my group, then?
silence is agreement, when it comes to speedfanks. if you do not consent to the speed for any reason, communicate that.
though please consider that if you, for some reason, find yourself in a random normal and wanting to do the dungeon quest in story mode, as in, reading all dialgoue and ooh-ing and aah-ing at everything- maybe random normals isn't the place to do so. perhaps your group will accomodate, yet they have no obligation to- because just as it is inconsiderate of them to rush you through your story mode without consent, it's also inconsiderate of you to use up their time without consent. either end of the speed spectrum can be inconsiderate for the rest of your group members. if you want to do slow story mode in group dungeons, better to ask a guldie, or a friend, to come with you. maybe even ask the speedfank! if all else fails, git gud, solo normals, and become the speedfank.
just give me the tl;dr.
if speedfank slots taunt, breach, and doesn't die, speedfank is a perfectly adequate tank for random normals.
if speedfank waits for everybody to arrive before boss & checks chats to see if anybody is doing the quest, speedfank is not disrupting anybody else in the group.
then, speedfank is not a problem.
if you're a speedfank, make sure you're doing all these.
if you're faced with a speedfank, make sure you communicate with them if you're non-consenting to their speed.
if speedfank can't read, or doesn't want to waste a precious extra minute or two to be courteous to their groupmates, then speedfank is a bad person & unfortunately nobody has yet found the cure to summarily remove the bad in bad people.
obvious as this may sound, some forumgoers seem to forget & instead attribute all evil to speedfanking as a concept, which is simply false. remember:
the problem isn't fake tanking & speedrunning. a player can do those and still be considerate to the rest of the group.
the problem is inconsiderate people.
i believe that there is such a thing as a competent, non-disruptive speedrunning fake tank. (let's just call them speedfanks for ease, henceforth)
now, before y'all grab your pitchforks, let me say my piece. starting from the beginning...
why do people fake tank & speedrun random normal dungeons?
simply put, time & efficiency. speedfanks value their time & don't wish to spend more of it on random normals than they have to. as a reasonable human being, you cannot impose upon somebody else to value their time less & do things less efficiently. (as long as they aren't harming you in any way- but the competent speedfank won't, as you'll see by the end)
slotting as a dps not only leads to a longer queue time, but possibly to a longer dungeon completion time as well- because unless you get matched with another speedfank, you'll be one DPS player down. there is absolutely no need for a real, optimized tank in any normal dungeon. however, there are three core things that a tank has to do regardless of content difficulty...
what does a tank actually need to do in a normal dungeon?
hold aggro, debuff boss, and don't die. (and perhaps some minor mechanics for some dungeons... it's normal after all)
therefore, a fake tank needs to fulfill three prerequisites- slot a taunt; slot major breach; slot self-sustain.
if all three of these conditions are met- and it's really not that hard- the only difference between a real tank and a fake tank, in a normal dungeon, is that the group DPS will be higher with the fake tank. that seems like, as far as normal dungeons are concerned, there's no reason you'd want a real tank in your group over a fake tank then, right? until...
oh no, the speedfank is soloing the second boss already and i haven't even finished loading yet!
this here's the real sticker & why speedfanks are hated.
the speedfank has to fulfill three infinitely more difficult prerequisites- look at the chat; comprehend basic english; listen to the other human beings in the group.
somewhere between these three, many speedfanks fail & thus lead to the entirety of their kin to be dismissed as "ruiners of the great fun we would have had otherwise".
there's no cure for fools. however, a reasonable human being (the competent speedfank, as ideal of this thread) will do the absolute minimum of checking the chat to see if anybody said anything that would denote they are not consenting to the speed. or, even better- the competent speedfank shall wait before every boss for the rest of the group to arrive.
that doesn't sound so bad now! what do i do if i get one of them speedfanks in my group, then?
silence is agreement, when it comes to speedfanks. if you do not consent to the speed for any reason, communicate that.
though please consider that if you, for some reason, find yourself in a random normal and wanting to do the dungeon quest in story mode, as in, reading all dialgoue and ooh-ing and aah-ing at everything- maybe random normals isn't the place to do so. perhaps your group will accomodate, yet they have no obligation to- because just as it is inconsiderate of them to rush you through your story mode without consent, it's also inconsiderate of you to use up their time without consent. either end of the speed spectrum can be inconsiderate for the rest of your group members. if you want to do slow story mode in group dungeons, better to ask a guldie, or a friend, to come with you. maybe even ask the speedfank! if all else fails, git gud, solo normals, and become the speedfank.
just give me the tl;dr.
if speedfank slots taunt, breach, and doesn't die, speedfank is a perfectly adequate tank for random normals.
if speedfank waits for everybody to arrive before boss & checks chats to see if anybody is doing the quest, speedfank is not disrupting anybody else in the group.
then, speedfank is not a problem.
if you're a speedfank, make sure you're doing all these.
if you're faced with a speedfank, make sure you communicate with them if you're non-consenting to their speed.
if speedfank can't read, or doesn't want to waste a precious extra minute or two to be courteous to their groupmates, then speedfank is a bad person & unfortunately nobody has yet found the cure to summarily remove the bad in bad people.
obvious as this may sound, some forumgoers seem to forget & instead attribute all evil to speedfanking as a concept, which is simply false. remember:
the problem isn't fake tanking & speedrunning. a player can do those and still be considerate to the rest of the group.
the problem is inconsiderate people.
PC-EU // UNDEAD
43
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ixthUA✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are very rare in vet dungeons, but fake DDs are very common. For true dungeon experience, switch to vet!40 -
SkaraMinoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I did 10 minute Falkreath Normal speed runs as a fake tank when farming Ironblood for PvP healing. My pugs loved me and couldn't believe how fast we cleared. 9 out of 10 times players just want the daily random xp.
Fake tanking in normal dungeons isn't a problem in my opinion. Just be considerate of new players questing.
Edited by SkaraMinoc on November 10, 2021 2:21PMPC NA21 -
Muttsmutt✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are very rare in vet dungeons, but fake DDs are very common. For true dungeon experience, switch to vet!
"i'm a fake tank because you're a fake DD" is a line i'm still waiting to have the chance to say.
of course, for the true dungeon experience, vet is the way to go. this is not about the true dungeon experience.
this is all about speed & efficiency for random normals, while also not being inconsiderate.PC-EU // UNDEAD3 -
N3CR01✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are very rare in vet dungeons, but fake DDs are very common. For true dungeon experience, switch to vet!
I only run vet dungeons on my tank and the amount of peoples who don't let me lead...
They just run thru as fast as they can then blame me when they die for not keeping up...
Idiots.3 -
Giraffon✭✭✭✭✭
✭So if you didn't get through OP's whole post (maybe I didn't either), the short version is:
If you pick a tank role, be sure you actually CAN tank, wait for the whole group before engaging bosses, and don't be a jerk. Not every group needs a tank, but if you are in one that does, slow down and be the tank.
Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!17 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It is so, so easy to put on 1-2 skills and, to the most basic degree, fulfill the minimum requirements for the tank role.
Literally Breach (Ele drain for mag - Caltrops for Stam)
Taunt (inner rage)
Don't die
That is such a small requirement to have insta que. I really think you're kinda jerk if you hold other people in such a small regard you don't even want to fulfill the bare minimum of the role you qued for.
What you gain FAR OUTWEIGHT the little effort you have to put into it.
Edited by Grandchamp1989 on November 10, 2021 2:44PM11 -
Artim_X✭✭✭✭✭
✭why do people fake tank & speedrun random normal dungeons?
In my experience any normal dungeon run with even 1 proper DPS player (does enough damage for vet runs) will make the run a speedrun regardless of who is in the party. Also you're assuming that only decent DPS queue as fake tanks when realistically there is always the possibility to get into a group with 2 decent DPS, and actual healer, and a tank.
what does a tank actually need to do in a normal dungeon?
IMO for normal dungeons as long as a player taunts priority enemies (bosses and enemies that one-shots), doesn't let the boss move around too much, and does not die then that player is a tank regardless of how high their damage is. Remember we used to be able to queue for multiple roles. No one will complain about a tank that does their role and brings DPS to the table. If a healer is present then they will ideally offer sustain and debuffs. If the healer is fake then there is already enough damage present even without debuffs being slotted. In normal dungeons debuffs are nice to have, but are not a must have.
oh no, the speedfank is soloing the second boss already and i haven't even finished loading yet!
In my experience as long as everyone tank or DPS kills everything they aggro along the way and wait for others before engaging a boss, the rest of the group will not have a problem.
that doesn't sound so bad now! what do i do if i get one of them speedfanks in my group, then?
Pretty much if no one says anything then whatever people are doing is fine. Keep in mind that random normal isn't always random for everyone. A player could have queued for a specific dungeon and put into a group of players that queued for random. As you mention if they're is an issue they should express it in chat. Also not all normals are soloable due to forced group mechanics, particularly the ones in boss fights where if no one interrupts or does a mechanic you die. There is also a nonverbal way to express your concerns about a groupmate. Initiating a vote to kick gives the other group members a chance to overcome the bystander effect and actual do something about a player that is messing up the run.
just give me the tl;dr.
Remember if you do the minimum requirements of a tank in a normal run you are not a fake tank regardless of how much DPS you do. Most people take issue with true fakes that go in with their DPS build without taunt and leaving leftover enemies in their wake. Once again group chat or initiating a kick can help resolve issues a group has with a group member.Edited by Artim_X on November 10, 2021 2:58PM(AD) Artim X/Xirtām/Måtrix |PC/NA| Casual staff wielding vampire sorcerer/templar/arcanistElectric-Stunhttps://media.giphy.com/media/Av0zcKH3i2BkaY1GXW/giphy.gif/https://c.tenor.com/jQHdFftrgwMAAAAC/tenor.gifElectric-Pets- Roleplay Damage Dealing Build.
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Kinras's jewelry (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Lightning Flood, Shocking Soul (Shock damage, Class Mastery Signature Script, and Empower), and Power Overload.
- Ability-Bar 2: Storm Pulsar, Streak, Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Storms, Shocking Burst (Shock Damage, remove 1 negative effect, and interrupt) and Thunderous Rage.
Solo: Use Kinras's chest, replace Mora with Ring of the Pale Order, and use a heavy Slimcraw piece for max critical.
https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNHVjemwxZHI2ZmQ2bTg1ZG0xOTZ3b2QwajBzNGxmaHh6OXRpN3p6YSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/eBgWizk5dmZRS/giphy.gifElectric-Heal- Stress free one bar pet build .
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants. No chest piece), 1 medium Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, medium, Max Mag Enchants), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant ring and necklace (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant), Oakensoul ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)
- Ability-Bar: Daedric Prey, Summon Volatile Familiar, Bound Armaments, Unstable Wall of Storms, Summon Twilight Matriarch, and Greater storm Atronach.
https://media.giphy.com/media/5ibGIHneWS6ek/giphy.gifElectric-Ward- My Healer Build.
- Gear: 5 Spell Power Cure (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (Charged/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/restoration staff (Powered with absorb magicka enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Power Surge, Boundless Storm, Blessing of Restoration, Energy Orb, Twilight Matriarch, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Overflowing Altar, Elemental Drain, Blockade of Storms, Twilight Matriarch, and Aggressive Horn.
https://media.giphy.com/media/Wa0TGmtDvwW3e/giphy.gifElectric-Vamp- My Meme Tank Build that uses high resistance and variety of wards.
- Gear: 5 Brands of Imperium (All body pieces except Head and Shoulders, with Divine trait, and with Prismatic Defense Enchants), full Iceheart (1 light and 1 medium. Divines and Prismatic Enchant), and Combat Physician jewelry (bloodthirsty with Prismatic Recovery Enchants), Combat Physician restoration staff (Infused with hardening enchant), and combat physician ice staff (Infused with crusher enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Bound Aegis, Deep Thoughts, Boundless Storm, Healing Ward, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Silver Leash (Elemental Drain if healer isn't running it), Bound Aegis, Frost Clench, Blockade of Frost, Empowered Ward, and Temporal Guard.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ukDQiYZzRAxMZKcK86/giphy.gifDawnfang- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (medium chest and body pieces light. All Impenetrable with Prismatic Enchants). Gaze of Sithis and 1 light Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton (light shoulders, and impenetrable with Prismtaic Enchants). Knight Slayer (Swift with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused with oblivion enchant)/restoration staff (infused with oblivion enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Structured Entropy, Boundless Storm, Soul Splitting Trap, Radiating Regeneration, Healing Ward, and Life Giver.
- Ability-Bar 2: Drain Vigor (Elemental Susceptibility), Race Against Time, Rune Cage, Radiant Magelight, Regenerative Ward, and Shatter Soul.
https://media.tenor.com/ogWfvDdsqBIAAAAd/anime-black-clover.gifDuskfang- My casual one bar heavy attack Templar build that primarily utilizes Aedric Spear abilities.
- Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Puncturing Sweep, Aurora Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, Radiant Ward/Breath of life, and Crescent Sweep.
https://media.tenor.com/Jo8aG_ouy_oAAAAd/ac-odyssey.gifEye of the Queen- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Radiant Oppression, Race Against Time, Aurora Javelin, Breath of Life, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/44/1c/fd441c8242af6ec35ada94496feb0901.gifEye of the King- My casual one bar heavy attack Arcanist build that primarily utilizes Herald of the Tome abilities.
- Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Pragmatic Fatecarver, Cephaliarch's Flail, Rune of Displacement, Inspired Scholarship/Evolving Runemend, and The Languid Eye.
https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOTAzdjV1eTgwbDFmM3lrZmxuMXRqdDR3Y3h1ZDRpajR0M3VjZzQ3NSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/zXmbOaTpbY6mA/giphy.gifPvE Starter Gear- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Race Against Time, Rune of Uncanny Adoration, Evolving Runemend, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
https://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gifRace- Gear: 5 Law of Julianos (heavy chest, gloves/belt light, and the rest can be light or 1 medium piece if you're not wearing medium anywhere else on your body. All in training if grinding for XP or divines), Armor of the Seducer or Magnus' Gift head, shoulder, and staves (light with 1 medium piece if you are not already wearing 1 medium Julianos piece. All in training or divines. The staves should be training or infused), and 3 purple Willpower Jewelry with Arcane trait (can be bought from trading guilds for relatively cheap.
- Check tamrieltradecentre.com for the best deals if you're not using a price checking addon).
https://media.giphy.com/media/sdEkeWpiaGz0A/giphy.gifMundus Stones- High elf, since you will not have issues with sustain, but other mag based races are also fine so this is more of a personal choice.
https://media.giphy.com/media/cT3wMhLGQWdKU/giphy.gifCurrent Champion Points- PvP: The Steed for speed. Gotta go fast!
- PvE Healing/Damage: The Thief for decent crit rate.
- PvE Tanking: The Lady to get close to resistance cap.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FGDAx6u3hthMhgI/giphy.gifFavorite Foods and Potions- DPS: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Exploiter, Weapons Expert, Fighting Finesse, Master-at-Arms, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Healer Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Hope Infusion, Weapon's Expert, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Tanky Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Ironclad, Enduring Resolve, Reinforced, Duelist's Rebuff, Bastion, Ward Master, Rejuvenation, Fortified.
- PvP Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, Occult Overload, Arcane Supremacy, Bastion, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- PvP Temp/Arcanist: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, From the Brink, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif- Parse Food for PvE:(DPS) Ghastly Eye Bowl (increases Max Magicka by 4592 and Magicka Recovery by 459 for 2 hours).
- Gold/Purple Food for Sorc PvP and Meme Tanking:(PvP) Clockwork Citrus Filet (increases Max Health by 3326, Health Recovery by 406 [useful if stage 1 vampire], Max Magicka by 3080, and Magicka Recovery by 338 for 2 hours). Witchmother's Potent Brew (Increase Max Magicka by 2856, Max Health by 3094, and Magicka Recovery by 315 for 2 hours.
- Trash Potions when feeling cheap: Regular CP150 Essence of Magicka pots that I obtain frequently from playing the game or Crown Tri-Restoration Potion obtained from dailies.
- Crafted Potions: Essence of Spell Critical (Bugloss, Lady's Smock, and Water Hyacinth). Without magelight this is my primary means of obtaining Major Prophecy on my Sorc, which increases my Spell Critical Rating. This also heals and restores magicka. Essence of Immovability (Columbine, Corn Flower, and Wormwood). I use this in PvP, since this gives me stealth detection, knockback immunity, and restores magicka (better to use it when competent allies are nearby, since it might reveal that you are surrounded by multiple players in stealth and you will not have an emergency pot available after use). Essence of Invisibility with only 2 ingredients (Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, Nirnroot, or Spider Egg). I use this in PvE content that requires stealth and if I need more speed I'll use Rapid Maneuver before using the potion. Essence of Invisibility with 3 ingredients (Blessed Thistle, Blue Entoloma, and Namira's Rot). Very useful in PvP alongside the vampire Dark Stalker passive, since you'll be invisible, ignore movement speed penalty while in Crouch, and you'll have a 30% movement speed boost from Major Expedition (I always have this slotted when riding from point A to B in PvP land, since gankers are always lurking). My templar/arcanist will mostly use Essence of Health (Tri-Stat Potion) Ingredients: (Mountain Flower, Columbine, and Bugloss).
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Kessra✭✭✭The problem is NOT that people queue as tank but are truely DDs, but that fake tanks rarely hold agro of the mobs they are supposed to tank. Usually when I queue as DD, which is not that often as I mainly play tanks and healers, I end up tanking the boss in 90% of the cases as the "tank" did not care at all. This is what actually p*sses me off. I don't care if he takes more damage or the like but at least he should hold agro of the mobs he's supposed to tank.
Also the wording in some statements leave a smell of elitist behavior that is put in to justify rude behavior. How many times have I been to dungeons where 1 or 2 guys asked for the optional bosses which I agreed to do for them, even though it takes a bit longer, though one guy in the group didn't want to and rushed through to the next boss which ported us right to the boss even though we were close to pull the optional boss. This is just how one guy imposes his game-style onto others and therefore might ruin the game experience of others. This is not an MMO where people play together to reach a certain goal, this is one against the others and I can really understand the sentiment of the players who argue against the rush mentality.
I don't know why people don't form groups beforehand, like in the "good old times" and then queue for dungeons. And this relates to both ends of the spectrum. Most people aren't interested in the story line, especially after the 100th time. If they group up with similar-minded people no-one will complain. The problem arises just if you group up with people you don't know that have different approaches and expectations to the game. But please, stop justifying rude behavior with this overly narrow-mindset excuse of elitist behavior.Edited by Kessra on November 10, 2021 2:56PM3 -
Gundug✭✭✭✭✭one very important tanking skill that always seems to be ignored is crowd control and positioning. If you as a tank do not have a chain, at the minimum, you should be ensuring you have initial aggro on any mobs, which means applying damage on them before anyone else, and you should be sight pulling mobs whenever possible so they are clustered up tightly for quick killing. I see a lot of tanks, especially fake DD tanks who have no real conception of how to tank efficiently, that leave stragglers scattered all over the area, making fights take longer than they need to, and causing everyone to waste resources going after them individually.
Slot a chain and drag in loose mobs. Look for areas where you can turn a corner and force all the mobs to follow, stacking themselves up.2 -
ixthUA✭✭✭✭✭
People who just want the reward tend to do it in the fastest way, usually neglecting others.this is all about speed & efficiency for random normals, while also not being inconsiderate.
People who want social + PVE experience tend to avoid places where they can meet previous type of people, thus eventually going to vet versions of dungeons, or running with guildmates.
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Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭We had a fake healer in one today, I sat back and let them die at a boss around halfway, because fudge em. They rage quit and I, the leader, replaced them with Mirri and we completed the job with no more deaths and surprisingly good time
Edited by Bobby_V_Rockit on November 11, 2021 11:42AM0 -
SkillzMFG✭✭✭✭Seeing as you can solo most normal dungeons at higher CPs, nobody really cares I think.1 -
M0ntie✭✭✭✭✭Actually they do care - and if you read any of the hundreds of posts on the subject of fake tanking you'd know a lot of people do.
I agree with the OP. Basically for a random normal I don't care how the tank is spec'd, so long as they do the job they signed up for which is at a minimum to hold aggro on the big adds. I waited the time to queue as a role I could fulfil, so why should I also be tanking because the person who queued as tank isn't doing their job?5 -
summ0004✭✭✭As long as they hold aggro and have a taunt, then I dont mind.
What pisses me off is when its just a normal DD with no taunt, and then the boss is my face and I then cant perform my role which is to do damage.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In my opinion
The only the requirement of a fake tank is to hold aggro on dangerous mobs. That's it.
The only requirement of a fake healer is to occasionally top people's health up so they don't die.
The only requirement of the dps is to have enough dps to pass any dps checks in the dungeons they are eligible for.
And all group members should never engage a needed boss without all party members present. That's not a role requirement just a basic group one.
If you do these bare minimum things, then you're fine. As long as they are bringing the bare minimum things they have agreed to do in group finding, I really don't care what else they do.
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Obsidian3✭✭✭✭Fake Healers are more of a problem in DLC Normals. Ran Depths of Malatar with a fake healer, luckily we all had self heals so it wasn't too big an issue.1
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Sallymen✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are the product of fake DPS. I am not holding a boss as a tank for 5 straight minutes.Current Undaunted Key Count: 4,9024 -
seldomseenkd✭✭✭Fake tanks who bring decent DPS are fine. In most normals this is a more optimal group setup imo.
But far more common are fake tanks who are also doing negligible dps. These players are freeloaders.6 -
tomfant✭✭✭✭PUGging BDV is currently the worst experience you can have in group dungs cause everyone and their mother is farming Kinra's. In 98% you'll get fake healer and fake tank running straight to the endboss. It's not fun.0
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are the product of fake DPS. I am not holding a boss as a tank for 5 straight minutes.
A whole 5 minutes.
Just goes to show generational changes. Back when MMORPGs first came out a 10 minute boss fight was like a mini boss. End bosses could last half an hour or more. I'm not saying whether this change is good or bad mind you. I just think it's interesting just how much people's perceptions of what constitutes a long boss fight has changed over the years.Edited by Jeremy on November 11, 2021 9:27PM1 -
Call_of_Red_Mountain✭✭✭✭I speedrun normal dungeons. But always help if i see that someone typed "Need quest" in text chat.0 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭i'd like to touch on this hotly debated topic, as there's a simple five-step program to make everybody happy.
i believe that there is such a thing as a competent, non-disruptive speedrunning fake tank. (let's just call them speedfanks for ease, henceforth)
now, before y'all grab your pitchforks, let me say my piece. starting from the beginning...
why do people fake tank & speedrun random normal dungeons?
simply put, time & efficiency. speedfanks value their time & don't wish to spend more of it on random normals than they have to. as a reasonable human being, you cannot impose upon somebody else to value their time less & do things less efficiently. (as long as they aren't harming you in any way- but the competent speedfank won't, as you'll see by the end)
slotting as a dps not only leads to a longer queue time, but possibly to a longer dungeon completion time as well- because unless you get matched with another speedfank, you'll be one DPS player down. there is absolutely no need for a real, optimized tank in any normal dungeon. however, there are three core things that a tank has to do regardless of content difficulty...
what does a tank actually need to do in a normal dungeon?
hold aggro, debuff boss, and don't die. (and perhaps some minor mechanics for some dungeons... it's normal after all)
therefore, a fake tank needs to fulfill three prerequisites- slot a taunt; slot major breach; slot self-sustain.
if all three of these conditions are met- and it's really not that hard- the only difference between a real tank and a fake tank, in a normal dungeon, is that the group DPS will be higher with the fake tank. that seems like, as far as normal dungeons are concerned, there's no reason you'd want a real tank in your group over a fake tank then, right? until...
oh no, the speedfank is soloing the second boss already and i haven't even finished loading yet!
this here's the real sticker & why speedfanks are hated.
the speedfank has to fulfill three infinitely more difficult prerequisites- look at the chat; comprehend basic english; listen to the other human beings in the group.
somewhere between these three, many speedfanks fail & thus lead to the entirety of their kin to be dismissed as "ruiners of the great fun we would have had otherwise".
there's no cure for fools. however, a reasonable human being (the competent speedfank, as ideal of this thread) will do the absolute minimum of checking the chat to see if anybody said anything that would denote they are not consenting to the speed. or, even better- the competent speedfank shall wait before every boss for the rest of the group to arrive.
that doesn't sound so bad now! what do i do if i get one of them speedfanks in my group, then?
silence is agreement, when it comes to speedfanks. if you do not consent to the speed for any reason, communicate that.
though please consider that if you, for some reason, find yourself in a random normal and wanting to do the dungeon quest in story mode, as in, reading all dialgoue and ooh-ing and aah-ing at everything- maybe random normals isn't the place to do so. perhaps your group will accomodate, yet they have no obligation to- because just as it is inconsiderate of them to rush you through your story mode without consent, it's also inconsiderate of you to use up their time without consent. either end of the speed spectrum can be inconsiderate for the rest of your group members. if you want to do slow story mode in group dungeons, better to ask a guldie, or a friend, to come with you. maybe even ask the speedfank! if all else fails, git gud, solo normals, and become the speedfank.
just give me the tl;dr.
if speedfank slots taunt, breach, and doesn't die, speedfank is a perfectly adequate tank for random normals.
if speedfank waits for everybody to arrive before boss & checks chats to see if anybody is doing the quest, speedfank is not disrupting anybody else in the group.
then, speedfank is not a problem.
if you're a speedfank, make sure you're doing all these.
if you're faced with a speedfank, make sure you communicate with them if you're non-consenting to their speed.
if speedfank can't read, or doesn't want to waste a precious extra minute or two to be courteous to their groupmates, then speedfank is a bad person & unfortunately nobody has yet found the cure to summarily remove the bad in bad people.
obvious as this may sound, some forumgoers seem to forget & instead attribute all evil to speedfanking as a concept, which is simply false. remember:
the problem isn't fake tanking & speedrunning. a player can do those and still be considerate to the rest of the group.
the problem is inconsiderate people.
you can add not roll-dodge, hop like a crazy person, and kite all over creation so the rest of us can actually kill the bosses in question not waste buffs and utlimates, then I would agree.1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A guild mate converted his Necro to tank and asked if I wanted to run a normal random with him so he could try it out before doing vet stuff. I was on my healer. We both are really high CP and as it turns out could easily solo the dungeons we got.
When we queued we got a level 12 DPS and a level 14 tank because my friend forgot to change his role. We of course got an easy dungeon and they both had quest. My friend typed take your time and listen to the dialog if you want. So they did. We didn't get to test my friends tank and I ended up switching to DPS and back barring breath of life but all was good.
Finished that one and as a group queued again. Then did a third dungeon with my friend bringing an alt in. Anyway we did three dungeons that two of us had soloed many times. The new players were able to listen to all the dialog.
After the third one typed "dungeons are hella fun" and I'm guessing he is looking forward to running more. My friend answered lots of questions, he is more patient about that kind of thing than I am. And they both joined a guild he is in that specifically helps new players.
If they had been put in with a speed runner on that first run I'm not sure they would have come out thinking dungeons are fun. That is why when I queue I always assume it is going to take time. I'm usually on a healer and I stick with the slowest most the time.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."6 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
But who were they talking to?
Want to speed run? Get a group.
Want to do quest? Get a group.
I'm thinking if you want to skip content get a group.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭
But who were they talking to?
Want to speed run? Get a group.
Want to do quest? Get a group.
I'm thinking if you want to skip content get a group.
I have said this before on the many multiple threads about this. Apply it across the board. Yes, get a group -- whatever your gripe about randoms happens to be ---- if you can't or don't want to deal with what may happen. In those cases just make your own group and stop expecting random people to do what you want.3 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭
But who were they talking to?
Want to speed run? Get a group.
Want to do quest? Get a group.
I'm thinking if you want to skip content get a group.
I have said this before on the many multiple threads about this. Apply it across the board. Yes, get a group -- whatever your gripe about randoms happens to be ---- if you can't or don't want to deal with what may happen. In those cases just make your own group and stop expecting random people to do what you want.
I can't agree with those post enough.2 -
moleculardrugs✭✭✭✭I think having the option to opt-in for DPS-pure or 3-DPS 1-Healer for normal dungeons should be a thing. Like it's normal, so most likely we'll breeze through it (long time players).
Perhaps add in that at least 1 person needs to be of high CP for the randomized/non-segregating dungeon selection protocol and that could help with everything too.
Or they could just offer this for the base dungeons, not the DLC ones. So DSC, FG, SC, etc etc. Then it'll be basically new players and longer-term players, not having to wait a long time and also getting to play together to maybe learn from the vets and then also make people participate more in rnDD, because honestly, 8/18 of my toons aren't tanks or healers so I don't play with them when it comes to the dailies. I have to queue for 15-30 mins, on average my queue is more like 10-15 mins but those are the extreme values I've noticed.1
