Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Hybridization Problems
Naelin
✭✭
I've been playing ESO for many years now, ESO had its low moments but in the end ZOS gave us a beautiful and truly amazing game. Even if on certain things I had my doubt in the past (most recent example would be the Champion System 2.0) it turned out to be really great... but that hybridization, I can't support that.
The goal of this post is not to be disruptive, bash the decision made by ZOS, make any demand, protest or being rude, but ZOS told us that they want our feedback and this is my feedback, my concerns and opinion regarding the Hybridization topic in the game. As a Game Dev myself, I know how much work and complexity goes into making a game, especially for something as big as ESO. That being said, the longtime ESO player that I am and the game dev are disappointed and don't agree with that change.
While I agree with many of the changes that are presented to us in the PTS Patch Note... What I do not agree with truly frustrate me. I understand and know that improving character hybridization has been a main focus for ZOS from a long time now, but making every single set viable for a hybrid build is not the right way to do it and the mantra of “play the way you want” is not a valid argument to back that choice.
Playing the way I want is still keeping a distinction between Mag, Stam and Hybrid toons. I am not against making Hybrid Toon more viable for the harder endgame content like Vet Trials and certain Vet Dungeons, hell I really enjoy theorycraft hybrid build and I was working on two of them before that news dropped.
The real problem is that the current Sets that we're having for Hydrid build (such as New Moon Acolyte or Diamond's Victory) are just not good enough compared to the Sets that were made for Stam/Mag toons. Instead of making everything a hybrid set and yes, I agree that the following would have taken way more time and resource from ZOS, but revamping the existing set to make them more viable, create new one that are 100% focused on hybrid build would've been the better course of actions. I wouldn't have been mad to see something in the patch note saying that all the new sets from this DLC are 100% designed and made for hybrid build in order to make them more viable compared to what we have now. The only thing that this current change is doing is really boiling down the distinction of magicka/stamina even more.
Making almost every sets viable for hybrid builds which literally affect and change something that is part of the core Game Design this late in the game exists, will have a really, really big impact on long time player, and changing a core of the design this late in the game can hurt it in a bad way.
For example, why not just getting rid of Mag and Stam resources to make one single resource pool since everything become hybrid?
Well, no, because Elder Scrolls games always had these two resources (not including health in that thinking), it's a core thing for the franchise. In the single player games, yes, we can play the way we want, but there are pros and cons when building your hero in these games. For example, in Oblivion, yes, you can have a full suit of heavy armor and be a Wizard, but the effect of your spell was reduced. Well with the change you want to make in ESO something like this won't really matter, I could be a Mag Sorcerer wearing Kinra's, Relequen and Selene all in medium and while yes, I don't have the passive from the Light Armor tree, I don't care because I will still be able to deal massive amount of damage because the passive from the armor trees are really a Min-Max stats in the end.
With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
Edited by Naelin on September 22, 2021 11:11AM The goal of this post is not to be disruptive, bash the decision made by ZOS, make any demand, protest or being rude, but ZOS told us that they want our feedback and this is my feedback, my concerns and opinion regarding the Hybridization topic in the game. As a Game Dev myself, I know how much work and complexity goes into making a game, especially for something as big as ESO. That being said, the longtime ESO player that I am and the game dev are disappointed and don't agree with that change.
While I agree with many of the changes that are presented to us in the PTS Patch Note... What I do not agree with truly frustrate me. I understand and know that improving character hybridization has been a main focus for ZOS from a long time now, but making every single set viable for a hybrid build is not the right way to do it and the mantra of “play the way you want” is not a valid argument to back that choice.
Playing the way I want is still keeping a distinction between Mag, Stam and Hybrid toons. I am not against making Hybrid Toon more viable for the harder endgame content like Vet Trials and certain Vet Dungeons, hell I really enjoy theorycraft hybrid build and I was working on two of them before that news dropped.
The real problem is that the current Sets that we're having for Hydrid build (such as New Moon Acolyte or Diamond's Victory) are just not good enough compared to the Sets that were made for Stam/Mag toons. Instead of making everything a hybrid set and yes, I agree that the following would have taken way more time and resource from ZOS, but revamping the existing set to make them more viable, create new one that are 100% focused on hybrid build would've been the better course of actions. I wouldn't have been mad to see something in the patch note saying that all the new sets from this DLC are 100% designed and made for hybrid build in order to make them more viable compared to what we have now. The only thing that this current change is doing is really boiling down the distinction of magicka/stamina even more.
Making almost every sets viable for hybrid builds which literally affect and change something that is part of the core Game Design this late in the game exists, will have a really, really big impact on long time player, and changing a core of the design this late in the game can hurt it in a bad way.
For example, why not just getting rid of Mag and Stam resources to make one single resource pool since everything become hybrid?
Well, no, because Elder Scrolls games always had these two resources (not including health in that thinking), it's a core thing for the franchise. In the single player games, yes, we can play the way we want, but there are pros and cons when building your hero in these games. For example, in Oblivion, yes, you can have a full suit of heavy armor and be a Wizard, but the effect of your spell was reduced. Well with the change you want to make in ESO something like this won't really matter, I could be a Mag Sorcerer wearing Kinra's, Relequen and Selene all in medium and while yes, I don't have the passive from the Light Armor tree, I don't care because I will still be able to deal massive amount of damage because the passive from the armor trees are really a Min-Max stats in the end.
With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
14
-
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Not sure I agree the new CP system turned out great
but I generally think I follow and agree with your stance on hybridization of sets. I'm not going to say the sky is falling. But it's not sitting well with me.
I kind of feel like they came up with Markyn Ring of Majesty and then made this decision to try and completely change up how people look at gear... but I'm not sure this kind of drastic change was warranted or requested and I'm reading in the feedback that the Ring isn't really worth it.2 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not sure I agree the new CP system turned out great but I generally think I follow and agree with your stance on hybridization of sets. I'm not going to say the sky is falling. But it's not sitting well with me.
I kind of feel like they came up with Markyn Ring of Majesty and then made this decision to try and completely change up how people look at gear... but I'm not sure this kind of drastic change was warranted or requested and I'm reading in the feedback that the Ring isn't really worth it.
This really has nothing to do with the ring. These changes were hinted at as early as update 30s combat preview when they introduced "Offensive Penetration" and "Critical Chance" as a way to offer both stats on a set. Even when they described it, they were a bit vague, but they made it sound like all sets would adopt that idea, the same way Resistances were changed to Armor to offer both on sets. As the patches went on, you could see this change in motion.
U31's sets were all hybrid. The only stats that weren't were Resource/Resource Regen.
It's important to note that due to the way games are developed, anything major we see today has most likely been in the pipeline for anywhere between 6-12 months. Knowing how ZOS opperates, they probably already have most of the work for the Chapter completed and that won't be available until Summer of 2022.
So yeah, I highly doubt 1 mythic has anything to do with this.
Also, disagree with OP, whether you're hybrid, stam or mag, there is something for everyone and I still feel like there is enough distinction between skill choice, resource investment and enchants that makes each role feel different from each other while exploding the game with theory crafting like I've never seen before. I think it was a great idea for them to draw the line at Resource/Resource Regen as that is what decides what skills you can afford to cast and for how long.
In some cases, it doesn't even feel hybrid to me. For example, I've made a 5 Medium 2 Light magplar build on Live for PVP and I still consider it a Magicka build. The purpose of Medium armor is for stronger heals, more armor and more speed. Stamina sustain is just as important as magicka for PVP. That idea is very important to the Elder Scrolls experience and reminds me of the versatility we had with those games.Edited by MashmalloMan on September 25, 2021 8:54PM10 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
Post feels longwinded for not much reason. Not sure what "I am a game dev" has to do with much at all.
The hybrid system seems fine so far. I know a Mag user who is inspecting into Siroria/Yandir for 1K+ Spell Dmg burst build. That seems fine to me.5 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭The game engine was built to mimic elder scrolls, a franchise that very much draws the line between magicka, stamina, and the pros and cons of armor investment.
By mashing everything together you abandon the franchise's core combat. Why?
My theory: it's a cheap and easy way to drum up interest and bring back players. It's not exactly the top of most players' wish lists. Most just want the game to work better.
How do you make the game work better? Stop massively changing it every patch for the sake of new shiny things to keep players busy. Focus on putting the current fires rather than sparking new ones.
Most of the useful sets are already usable by any build OR have stam/mag counterparts. The rest are still useful in the right set ups, which people choose to build into to maximize the results.
I believe this change will lead to massive imbalances that will allow PvE players to go full cheese on the system and PvPers to turn Cyrodiil, BGs and IC into a giant mess that'll be fun for about a week before PvPers do what they always do: find the most effective set combinations to ruin the experience for everyone, forcing zos to nerf.
The problem will be that ZOS can't just nerf a few problem sets like Dark Convergence. It's going to be a gigantic mess and in a game this large and this old, the bigger the mess, the longer it will take to deal with. Unfortunately there's no going back. So strap in because this could be the end. Or maybe I'm wrong and ESO will become the hottest MMO out there, similar to a certain Japanese game that got a recent surge in popularity.
My money is on the former and that's why I really hope someone up the ladder is already preparing a team to get in front of the impending disaster that is hybridization.I drink and I stream things.8 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
Post feels longwinded for not much reason. Not sure what "I am a game dev" has to do with much at all.
The hybrid system seems fine so far. I know a Mag user who is inspecting into Siroria/Yandir for 1K+ Spell Dmg burst build. That seems fine to me.
Just to confirm, Yandirs 5th piece is now Hybrid too? Confirm plz im a console player lol0 -
oterWitz✭✭✭✭Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
Post feels longwinded for not much reason. Not sure what "I am a game dev" has to do with much at all.
The hybrid system seems fine so far. I know a Mag user who is inspecting into Siroria/Yandir for 1K+ Spell Dmg burst build. That seems fine to me.
Just to confirm, Yandirs 5th piece is now Hybrid too? Confirm plz im a console player lol
Yes, I just double checked. Both of the five piece bonuses (Giant's Endurance and Giant's Might) give weapon and spell damage now.PC NA1 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
Post feels longwinded for not much reason. Not sure what "I am a game dev" has to do with much at all.
The hybrid system seems fine so far. I know a Mag user who is inspecting into Siroria/Yandir for 1K+ Spell Dmg burst build. That seems fine to me.
Just to confirm, Yandirs 5th piece is now Hybrid too? Confirm plz im a console player lol
Yes, I just double checked. Both of the five piece bonuses (Giant's Endurance and Giant's Might) give weapon and spell damage now.
Ahhhh man thank you for telling me bro! This is definitely gonna be good on a StamDK with hybrid skills like molten whip and flames of oblivion. Magic characters can use this now too which is coolEdited by Bl4ckR3alm93 on September 26, 2021 1:23PM0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hybridization, or more accurately, homogenization, is a good step going forward for the studio. With this, they can reduce the complexity of combat and itemization, which then improves efforts to balance the game. They already have many many sets and they just keep adding more. The same team has to maintain this increasing number sets with every update. The QA team has to test them to make sure they still work. Sets are a burden, but if they can consolidate how the sets work, it can significantly ease that burden carried by the studio.
Now, I am not saying that this is the ultimate reason they are doing this. I just want to point this out because it seems to me that they would have also considered this point.
Combat in this game is already split in half between magicka and stamina. The "stamina morph" system, while familiar to us now, remains a strange answer for adding stamina class skills to a game that was not originally designed to have stamina class skills. I don't think it was ever really intended that anyone would put everything into stamina. The result is that every character is a magicka class until the character gets to the point where it can spec into a stamina build and buy the "stamina morph". This game has 6 starting classes and 12 end-game classes. We treat this as normal, but it isn't really normal at all. It is an adaptation to quirks in how combat was designed long before the game shipped.
From where I sit, they have clearly tried to address the problems that were created before launch, like having stuff scale off the highest attribute rather than a dedicated attribute. It does help hybrid builds that used to scale off of the minority attribute, but I don't think it really changed how people did builds. This next change will also help hybrid builds by making it so that sets can be used by hybrid builds without being blocked by a set that builds combat stats for the wrong attack. This will allow builds with both stamina and magicka buffs and have them both contribute to the same combat stats.
This helps, but it still does not solve all the problems with hybrid builds. Hybrid builds still suffer from reduced effectiveness because they only scale off the highest attribute. A hybrid will always have a lower "highest attribute" than a traditional all-in build. They will still be weaker, and this will drive many people to just continue using the "all-in" builds as the meta. In the end, I doubt that this will be widely adopted at the top end-game level. It may even be shunned in veteran venues.
More work is necessary. The next step in homogenization is to equalize the combat power for stamina and magicka, and possibly also health. The goal will be to remove any advantage that is derived from an "all-in" build, and that is the only way that hybrid builds will be widely accepted.
I disagree with the methods and ultimate direction that the studio is going here, but things are already lost in the woods, so to speak. Getting out of the woods is a monumental task that will never happen. Going further into the woods isn't going to make us any more lost.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
Eormenric✭✭✭
"In the end"? The game is not over. You reference this again by saying...I've been playing ESO for many years now, ESO had its low moments but in the end ZOS gave us a beautiful and truly amazing game.
Consider remembering that this is an MMO, a videogame designed while it's being played, not designed before it's being played and released into stagnancy.Making almost every sets viable for hybrid builds which literally affect and change something that is part of the core Game Design this late in the game exists, will have a really, really big impact on long time player, and changing a core of the design this late in the game can hurt it in a bad way.
You say you're frustrated and that ESO's mantra of "Play the way you want" is not a valid argument. What 'is' a valid argument for you? Is it even achievable in your frustrated state? If you're aware a valid argument exists, then be okay with that. If you require an explanation other than the mantra, then no matter what that explanation is you'll be then fine with these changes, yes? You can't say, "The reason you give is invalid". All you can say is, "That is a valid reason, but I don't like it." That's all this is about: You don't like what they're doing. Which is just fine because it doesn't appear to affect gameplay--just opens up more options on how to experience gameplay.While I agree with many of the changes that are presented to us in the PTS Patch Note... What I do not agree with truly frustrate me. I understand and know that improving character hybridization has been a main focus for ZOS from a long time now, but making every single set viable for a hybrid build is not the right way to do it and the mantra of “play the way you want” is not a valid argument to back that choice.
More hybrid options will give you a way more theorycrafting hours. What would Mother's Sorrow look like with equivalent weapon crit? Oh, the possibilities!I really enjoy theorycraft hybrid build and I was working on two of them before that news dropped.
Try seeing it from this perspective: ESO is going the route of hybrid not to bastardize either stamina or magicka, but to better balance the usage of them. By implementing hybrid armor, you allow varied skills, which creates more diverse gameplay than stacking all of the same skill types. Instead of stamina users using magicka only for, say, Accelerate, they might use it for different skills now because it's not wasteful to equip a magicka ability that isn't supportive. That opens up a lot more options per encounter!For example, why not just getting rid of Mag and Stam resources to make one single resource pool since everything become hybrid?
If you do think just any player can command a meeting with game developers of a videogame, it really paints a color over your whole argument.I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 27, 2021 1:26PM3 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭More hybrid options will give you a way more theorycrafting hours. What would Mother's Sorrow look like with equivalent weapon crit? Oh, the possibilities!
*Cough* LEVIATHAN *cough*
As I said, many sets are either usable by both builds OR already have counterparts.
I want this game to remain Elder Scrolls. This is another step in destroying core combat. You really think people will diversify? No. The elite players will figure out the best set combos to cheese the game and most players will adopt them to one degree or another.Edited by DrSlaughtr on September 27, 2021 12:24AMI drink and I stream things.6 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I like the idea of the hybridization of sets. It gives more options for Stam and Magicka builds. But I also agree that it makes the hybrid sets from before not good by comparison. I don't think this is much of a problem: if anything, it just makes hybrids have the same options main classes have, but for DPS, it'll really boil down to 3-4 sets for any occasion. To make this whole thing work, they need to redo many sets and make them viable options, hard cap crit rate to make people focus on other stats (60% is my guess for somewhere that would make other sets more viable), and buff penetration for stam to put them on an even playing field with magicka. I dislike the idea that there are only a few good sets that you can use if you want to be viable, so just making everything that's not used or is bad better rather than nerfing what is good is the way to go in my opinion.Edited by merpins on September 27, 2021 3:40AM0 -
wheresbes✭✭✭✭My question is: what are they planning to do with sets that will become redundant? Some will have very similar stats (eg rattlecage and dreugh king). Personally, I have a bad feeling about this - I suspect that they'll eventually drastically change some of them as it happened to pelinal's (for different, unknown reasons).2
-
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The game is too difficult for the players they want to attract. That simple.
The players they want to attract are the ones that generate the most revenue.Edited by katorga on September 27, 2021 1:08PM1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hybrid is cool but conversion is cooler (to me), and you can do it in a myriad of ways.
I'd be lying though if I said I didn't want to make a spellsword and use some physical skills and some elemental.
I like synergy like things best (NOT WHAT IS CURRENTLY IN THE GAME)
What I mean is comboing abilities whether alone or with another.
Example 1, eso buff nature : Use engulfing flames this enchants my blades with fire for 14 seconds all physical skills now scale off magicka and deal fire damage with a nice fiery particle effect (you could do other elements too I'm just obsessed with flames)
Example 2, combo style: Use whip, this empowers chains to turn into a chain sword and deal extra damage, using this combo empowers leap to leave an aoe behind. Once combo is triggered it's gone. (Not saying those exact combos but I digress)
Combos would liven up the combat system because other than pvp right and even a lot of times in pvp its buff buff buff dot dot dot spam spam spam spam spam spam with different numbers of spam and sometimes a proc (which is admittedly more interesting that it not being there) based on class and yes shalks and blastbones are just another word for spam.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
ajkb78✭✭✭✭✭I've been playing ESO for many years now, ESO had its low moments but in the end ZOS gave us a beautiful and truly amazing game. Even if on certain things I had my doubt in the past (most recent example would be the Champion System 2.0) it turned out to be really great... but that hybridization, I can't support that.
The goal of this post is not to be disruptive, bash the decision made by ZOS, make any demand, protest or being rude, but ZOS told us that they want our feedback and this is my feedback, my concerns and opinion regarding the Hybridization topic in the game. As a Game Dev myself, I know how much work and complexity goes into making a game, especially for something as big as ESO. That being said, the longtime ESO player that I am and the game dev are disappointed and don't agree with that change.
While I agree with many of the changes that are presented to us in the PTS Patch Note... What I do not agree with truly frustrate me. I understand and know that improving character hybridization has been a main focus for ZOS from a long time now, but making every single set viable for a hybrid build is not the right way to do it and the mantra of “play the way you want” is not a valid argument to back that choice.
Playing the way I want is still keeping a distinction between Mag, Stam and Hybrid toons. I am not against making Hybrid Toon more viable for the harder endgame content like Vet Trials and certain Vet Dungeons, hell I really enjoy theorycraft hybrid build and I was working on two of them before that news dropped.
The real problem is that the current Sets that we're having for Hydrid build (such as New Moon Acolyte or Diamond's Victory) are just not good enough compared to the Sets that were made for Stam/Mag toons. Instead of making everything a hybrid set and yes, I agree that the following would have taken way more time and resource from ZOS, but revamping the existing set to make them more viable, create new one that are 100% focused on hybrid build would've been the better course of actions. I wouldn't have been mad to see something in the patch note saying that all the new sets from this DLC are 100% designed and made for hybrid build in order to make them more viable compared to what we have now. The only thing that this current change is doing is really boiling down the distinction of magicka/stamina even more.
Making almost every sets viable for hybrid builds which literally affect and change something that is part of the core Game Design this late in the game exists, will have a really, really big impact on long time player, and changing a core of the design this late in the game can hurt it in a bad way.
For example, why not just getting rid of Mag and Stam resources to make one single resource pool since everything become hybrid?
Well, no, because Elder Scrolls games always had these two resources (not including health in that thinking), it's a core thing for the franchise. In the single player games, yes, we can play the way we want, but there are pros and cons when building your hero in these games. For example, in Oblivion, yes, you can have a full suit of heavy armor and be a Wizard, but the effect of your spell was reduced. Well with the change you want to make in ESO something like this won't really matter, I could be a Mag Sorcerer wearing Kinra's, Relequen and Selene all in medium and while yes, I don't have the passive from the Light Armor tree, I don't care because I will still be able to deal massive amount of damage because the passive from the armor trees are really a Min-Max stats in the end.
With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
Go 7 medium and you'll sustain for maybe half a rotation.0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My question is: what are they planning to do with sets that will become redundant? Some will have very similar stats (eg rattlecage and dreugh king). Personally, I have a bad feeling about this - I suspect that they'll eventually drastically change some of them as it happened to pelinal's (for different, unknown reasons).
They revamped some of them.
Rattle/Dreugh for example <And the other Crit versions> now grant both Brutality and Sorcerer for 5 piece bonuses rather than just one. Which is actually a surprisingly good change as it makes it a true hybrid set <There are zero hybrid pots in game that give both, at least to my knowledge>.2 -
Naelin✭✭
I can understand why you may think that, although I do not command a meeting with ZOS but saying that I am open to talk with them in a more direct way than just the forum.If you do think just any player can command a meeting with game developers of a videogame, it really paints a color over your whole argument.
Yes it is achievable, even if I am frustrated by the change I can remain rational. As a Game Dev myself, I don't agree with all the decision made on the project I am working on and like I did here, I say my concern(s) and feedback.What 'is' a valid argument for you? Is it even achievable in your frustrated state?
Sadly, you are right and it can already be seen on the PTS... The change doesn't fix and on a certain front it makes it worst than it was.TheEndBringer wrote: »I want this game to remain Elder Scrolls. This is another step in destroying core combat. You really think people will diversify? No. The elite players will figure out the best set combos to cheese the game and most players will adopt them to one degree or another.
Edited by Naelin on September 29, 2021 2:16PM2 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can understand why you may think that, although I do not command a meeting with ZOS but saying that I am open to talk with them in a more direct way than just the forum.
I can quote EQ devs too. If you want a more...direct way of communication.
https://www.zenimaxonline.com/careers
I mean. Its a hell of the most direct way to communicate.0 -
ZeroDPS✭✭✭✭I've been playing ESO for many years now, ESO had its low moments but in the end ZOS gave us a beautiful and truly amazing game. Even if on certain things I had my doubt in the past (most recent example would be the Champion System 2.0) it turned out to be really great... but that hybridization, I can't support that.
The goal of this post is not to be disruptive, bash the decision made by ZOS, make any demand, protest or being rude, but ZOS told us that they want our feedback and this is my feedback, my concerns and opinion regarding the Hybridization topic in the game. As a Game Dev myself, I know how much work and complexity goes into making a game, especially for something as big as ESO. That being said, the longtime ESO player that I am and the game dev are disappointed and don't agree with that change.
While I agree with many of the changes that are presented to us in the PTS Patch Note... What I do not agree with truly frustrate me. I understand and know that improving character hybridization has been a main focus for ZOS from a long time now, but making every single set viable for a hybrid build is not the right way to do it and the mantra of “play the way you want” is not a valid argument to back that choice.
Playing the way I want is still keeping a distinction between Mag, Stam and Hybrid toons. I am not against making Hybrid Toon more viable for the harder endgame content like Vet Trials and certain Vet Dungeons, hell I really enjoy theorycraft hybrid build and I was working on two of them before that news dropped.
The real problem is that the current Sets that we're having for Hydrid build (such as New Moon Acolyte or Diamond's Victory) are just not good enough compared to the Sets that were made for Stam/Mag toons. Instead of making everything a hybrid set and yes, I agree that the following would have taken way more time and resource from ZOS, but revamping the existing set to make them more viable, create new one that are 100% focused on hybrid build would've been the better course of actions. I wouldn't have been mad to see something in the patch note saying that all the new sets from this DLC are 100% designed and made for hybrid build in order to make them more viable compared to what we have now. The only thing that this current change is doing is really boiling down the distinction of magicka/stamina even more.
Making almost every sets viable for hybrid builds which literally affect and change something that is part of the core Game Design this late in the game exists, will have a really, really big impact on long time player, and changing a core of the design this late in the game can hurt it in a bad way.
For example, why not just getting rid of Mag and Stam resources to make one single resource pool since everything become hybrid?
Well, no, because Elder Scrolls games always had these two resources (not including health in that thinking), it's a core thing for the franchise. In the single player games, yes, we can play the way we want, but there are pros and cons when building your hero in these games. For example, in Oblivion, yes, you can have a full suit of heavy armor and be a Wizard, but the effect of your spell was reduced. Well with the change you want to make in ESO something like this won't really matter, I could be a Mag Sorcerer wearing Kinra's, Relequen and Selene all in medium and while yes, I don't have the passive from the Light Armor tree, I don't care because I will still be able to deal massive amount of damage because the passive from the armor trees are really a Min-Max stats in the end.
With all of that being said, here's my bucket of salt of the matter.
I hope and wish that someone from ZOS will read it and take my feedback into consideration.
I would also be more than happy to sit down with a fellow Game Dev from ZOS to talk about it, because in the end, I think all Devs want the same thing, make the best game we possibly can.
agree 100000000000%
why dont just remove wep/spell damage and instead have just 1 stat "damage".... sarcasm here
if this tendency will be kept, after 1-3 years we will have smth like this
Damage
Armor(ahahah we already have)
Health
Resource
ridiculous....
P.S. another game dev here1 -
Naelin✭✭I can understand why you may think that, although I do not command a meeting with ZOS but saying that I am open to talk with them in a more direct way than just the forum.
I can quote EQ devs too. If you want a more...direct way of communication.
https://www.zenimaxonline.com/careers
I mean. Its a hell of the most direct way to communicate.
As much as I would love to do that there are factors that make me just unable to apply, like not having the role I have experience in and not having an office where I live. (I know remote working is a thing, but I hate remote work that ain't for me)
Although, thanks for the thought.0 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭Playing the way I want is still keeping a distinction between Mag, Stam and Hybrid toons.
Mag and Stam toons will always "Feel" different and play different even if every single stat went Hybrid.
Stamina "skills" usually feel like a physical based thing, while Magicka "spells" feel more elemental.
Stam can roll and block more, Mag can better use shields/wards, Mag has higher inate penetration while Stam has naturally higher weapon damage.
Even before any Hybrid changes there were some things that felt the same regardless of Mag or Stam, DK breath, claws, Leap, Templar Jabs and potl, Necro Blastbones.
Even Vigor looks like Magic.
You will always need the 3 bars because that separates a bad player from a good player.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Play as you want" does not mean every build will be equal or even close to it. While I know someone who has cleared many of the vet DLC trials with a hybrid build that does not mean they would make the cut for most of the top competitive raid groups.
Even then, other players with hybrid builds may be challenged getting on any raid teams because their hybrid build is not very good for a hybrid build and they may still be developing their playing skills.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Play as you want" does not mean every build will be equal or even close to it.
With the changes in U32, they will be a step closer to that, though. This is why I don't call this "hybrid". The term is not inaccurate, but there are better terms. The true path to "play as you want" is one of becoming "homogeneous", and U32 takes the next step on that path.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭"Mod Developer" here, since we're whipping out our whatever-titles...
My Skyrim mod for Destruction Magic "Bound" weapons:https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71443
^ This is hybridization. The spells are mostly elemental damage, but significantly less physical damage. The armor does the same, significant elemental resistance, but little physical resistance, and bonus resistances are penalized if wearing physical armor also. In the end, I made it so that players can MAX their resistance in spell, physical, or hybrid form. They all reach hard-cap at a certain skill level. I created over 1,000 entries to make the spells "level" as characters level up, so it wasn't some 1-and-done creation kit entry for each type. Scaled with 0-19, 20-39, 40-59, 60-79, 80-99, and 100 Master Levels for each spell type, all in one learnt spell.
TL;DR: I mod hybrid **** for my Elder Scrolls games.
I completely agree with hybridization as long as it done correctly and doesn't invalidate pure magicka or pure stamina builds.***TheEndBringer wrote: »The game engine was built to mimic elder scrolls, a franchise that very much draws the line between magicka, stamina, and the pros and cons of armor investment.
By mashing everything together you abandon the franchise's core combat. Why?
My theory: it's a cheap and easy way to drum up interest and bring back players. It's not exactly the top of most players' wish lists. Most just want the game to work better...
lol what are you talking about? The Elder Scrolls franchise has ALWAYS let players be both magicka and stamina if they so wanted. There were CLASSES in oblivion that had specific magicka skill lines combined with melee/athletic skills! You could have been the highest jumping and fastest running mage in all of Cyrodiil--but I digress.
In Skyrim I had 1H and spells, and enchanted my armor to increase my destruction magic and 1H skill lines. There were no "Stamina spells" however, just heavy attacks that cost stamina. In Oblivion I'd swap between spells for long range and 1H and shield for close range combat. In Morrowind I used spears (but that's besides the point).
This game CAN and WILL balance hybridization because the game should never have catered to the MMO audience, but rather the Elder Scrolls audience (imho). It's not going to be correct their first try, we all know that. But let them try.7 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Play as you want" does not mean every build will be equal or even close to it.
With the changes in U32, they will be a step closer to that, though. This is why I don't call this "hybrid". The term is not inaccurate, but there are better terms. The true path to "play as you want" is one of becoming "homogeneous", and U32 takes the next step on that path.
I did not see what you called it. However, the reality is the term means the build is a hybrid of stamina and Magicka. So until Zenimax eliminates the two resource systems they are still hybrids. More importantly, until Zenimax completely eliminates all differences between stamina and magica builds then there will still be a difference in effectiveness, though as I pointed out in what was edited out of your quote, most of that difference seem to come down to a player's personal skill level.0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭"Mod Developer" here, since we're whipping out our whatever-titles...
My Skyrim mod for Destruction Magic "Bound" weapons:https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71443
^ This is hybridization. The spells are mostly elemental damage, but significantly less physical damage. The armor does the same, significant elemental resistance, but little physical resistance, and bonus resistances are penalized if wearing physical armor also. In the end, I made it so that players can MAX their resistance in spell, physical, or hybrid form. They all reach hard-cap at a certain skill level. I created over 1,000 entries to make the spells "level" as characters level up, so it wasn't some 1-and-done creation kit entry for each type. Scaled with 0-19, 20-39, 40-59, 60-79, 80-99, and 100 Master Levels for each spell type, all in one learnt spell.
TL;DR: I mod hybrid **** for my Elder Scrolls games.
I completely agree with hybridization as long as it done correctly and doesn't invalidate pure magicka or pure stamina builds.***TheEndBringer wrote: »The game engine was built to mimic elder scrolls, a franchise that very much draws the line between magicka, stamina, and the pros and cons of armor investment.
By mashing everything together you abandon the franchise's core combat. Why?
My theory: it's a cheap and easy way to drum up interest and bring back players. It's not exactly the top of most players' wish lists. Most just want the game to work better...
lol what are you talking about? The Elder Scrolls franchise has ALWAYS let players be both magicka and stamina if they so wanted. There were CLASSES in oblivion that had specific magicka skill lines combined with melee/athletic skills! You could have been the highest jumping and fastest running mage in all of Cyrodiil--but I digress.
In Skyrim I had 1H and spells, and enchanted my armor to increase my destruction magic and 1H skill lines. There were no "Stamina spells" however, just heavy attacks that cost stamina. In Oblivion I'd swap between spells for long range and 1H and shield for close range combat. In Morrowind I used spears (but that's besides the point).
This game CAN and WILL balance hybridization because the game should never have catered to the MMO audience, but rather the Elder Scrolls audience (imho). It's not going to be correct their first try, we all know that. But let them try.
Here's the issue with what you said.
Playing a single player game is not the same as an MMO where players are inherently competing with one another, whether directly via pvp or indirectly in pve through opportunities that may go to the hardest hitters, best tanks and strongest healers.
In Skyrim or Oblivion, no one cared if you ran around throwing fireballs with a sword. It's your game and you're not affecting other players. So put the difficulty where you want. Install whatever mods you like. No one cares.
However, even in those games, you ARE a stronger mag flinger with your staff. You DO hit harder with martial attacks via a melee weapon. You DO get penalized for armor types.
No one cares because you can still beat Skyrim naked on hard mmode. So cheese the game all you want. No one is pushing score. It's just about having your own little bubble.
This is an MMO. It's not your personal space where you should be able to get every damage buff with one potion and run around dropping 20k mages wrath with a sword.
These distinctions exist for a reason. It's easier to balance when there are specific roles. Getting rid of that will make it harder for them to keep up with shifts in meta that HURT the game.I drink and I stream things.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wouldn't bring up the single player games to defend homogenization. In those games, if you wanted to play a hybrid, say a 'battlemage', you had to give up some form of combat skill in order to strengthen your magic. There was give and take.
Unless of course you hit max level in all skills but that's really beside the point because in the single player endgame you were basically a living God.1 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭I wouldn't bring up the single player games to defend homogenization. In those games, if you wanted to play a hybrid, say a 'battlemage', you had to give up some form of combat skill in order to strengthen your magic. There was give and take.
Unless of course you hit max level in all skills but that's really beside the point because in the single player endgame you were basically a living God.
Yes, and you only have 10 slots to use whether you're mag, stam, or hybrid. You still only have access to your character's class' skils. You still have to balance the use of abilities when your resource regen rate is the hardest since it makes for a challenging rotation.
It's not as though there are 0 drawbacks to hybridizing the stats (non-regen and non-resource).
You can choose to be all magicka to only need stamina for sprinting, breaking free, interrupting (if you don't use stave pulse morph for it).
Magicka abilities costs more, so it'll still be extra tough on a medium armored hybrid dps or tank to balance the magicka heavy spells with the usual stamina attacks and buffs/heals.
If the argument is purely for "scoreboard" reasons, and they manage to make hybrid damage builds equivalent to pure stamina or magicka characters for 6 months, will it ruin your gaming experience THAT bad? You can't enjoy your thing, and let others enjoy their thing?
I'm trying to be reasonable but fail to see the magnitude of the situation as others think the game will be absolutely BROKEN the next update, like critical builds used to be for years.2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wouldn't bring up the single player games to defend homogenization. In those games, if you wanted to play a hybrid, say a 'battlemage', you had to give up some form of combat skill in order to strengthen your magic. There was give and take.
Unless of course you hit max level in all skills but that's really beside the point because in the single player endgame you were basically a living God.
Yes, and you only have 10 slots to use whether you're mag, stam, or hybrid. You still only have access to your character's class' skils. You still have to balance the use of abilities when your resource regen rate is the hardest since it makes for a challenging rotation.
It's not as though there are 0 drawbacks to hybridizing the stats (non-regen and non-resource).
You can choose to be all magicka to only need stamina for sprinting, breaking free, interrupting (if you don't use stave pulse morph for it).
Magicka abilities costs more, so it'll still be extra tough on a medium armored hybrid dps or tank to balance the magicka heavy spells with the usual stamina attacks and buffs/heals.
If the argument is purely for "scoreboard" reasons, and they manage to make hybrid damage builds equivalent to pure stamina or magicka characters for 6 months, will it ruin your gaming experience THAT bad? You can't enjoy your thing, and let others enjoy their thing?
I'm trying to be reasonable but fail to see the magnitude of the situation as others think the game will be absolutely BROKEN the next update, like critical builds used to be for years.
I don't care about scoreboards. I care about pvp getting ran in the ground worse than that did in August 2020 with proc-ogeddon, the negative effects of which they're still trying to untangle over a year later.I drink and I stream things.0 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭
There is no specific roles. There is a DD that allowed to have 3 different executions skills and there another DD that got a single weapon gutted to something tanky-wonky-support nonsense and without even remotely effective executeTheEndBringer wrote: »It's easier to balance when there are specific roles.
1