xylena_lazarow wrote: »It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane
xylena_lazarow wrote: »It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane
Yeah because it's balanced when one ability performs 3 different roles: Armor buff, AoE DoT and also magelight. As perfectly balanced as streak.
vesselwiththepestle wrote: »The best thing is, with being able to start a gank with a guaranteed Uppercut crit with vampire bonus to weapon damage and dealing damage from 3 skills, 1 medium attack, 1 light attack all within 1 GCD makes Cloak worth it for me.
Yes it is ridiculous isn't it? High cost, high risk, or high skill demand skills have become worse against cloak. Meanwhile, if you just spam acid spray or spin2win, you're fine.xylena_lazarow wrote: »It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane and Destro Ult can no longer be used to reveal cloaked enemies. It makes no sense, and forces you into even more narrow and build-warping tools if you want to actually fight a NB.
Oh the tears of nightblades ^^
Oh also: any nightblade, actually capable, would know, it was a buff. Less abilitys pull you out now. but heeeeeeey, its always the others
I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists. I genuinely mean that, I would like an explanation. I have seen videos of highly skilled magblades who actually end up using dark cloak.
It also amazes me that sorcs who vehemently defend streak/bol(which I think is fine) turn around and say cloak is overtuned/OP. The logic they use to defend streak/bold somehow doesnt seem to apply to cloak. It sounds the same to me .
Nightblades are not hard to counter in this game. But you have to know how. The same applies to sorcs.
I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists.
I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists. I genuinely mean that, I would like an explanation. I have seen videos of highly skilled magblades who actually end up using dark cloak.
It also amazes me that sorcs who vehemently defend streak/bol(which I think is fine) turn around and say cloak is overtuned/OP. The logic they use to defend streak/bold somehow doesnt seem to apply to cloak. It sounds the same to me .
Nightblades are not hard to counter in this game. But you have to know how. The same applies to sorcs.
I mained stamblade for 7 months and got alliance rank 32, magsorc for 6 months then converted to stamsorc main for 3 years and got alliance rank 50. I've done all types of PvP on both NB and Sorc, from dueling to 1vX, small scale to large scale, Cyrodiil to BG, and even ganking. I think I'm qualified enough to answer your question.
Magblade actually does very well in group PvP as a bomber. You'll often see full damage bombblades in an organized ball group. However, it consistently ranks near the bottom of PvP tier list for solo PvP because it lacks 2 key things:
1) A good class burst heal
2) A reliable burst combo
Most magicka classes have a good class burst heal. Necros have Resistant Flesh, Templars have Honor of the Dead, DKs have Coagulating Blood, Sorcs have Twilight. Wardens are an exception as their burst heals aren't as powerful, but they still have a burst heal. Meanwhile, magblades have none, so when they get bursted to near death, they have no way to escape the execute phase. Good magblades will usually block shade with HoTs rolling, but if they have several DoTs on them it's pretty easy to execute through their HoTs and block. Most good magblades nowadays have transitioned to melee builds though because it's better. They can play like a stamblade, while having much better heals with Dark Cloak + Rapid Regen + Blessing of Restoration (which is actually a very good universal burst heal for magicka classes).
Most magicka classes also have a reliable burst combo. Necros can time Blastbones with their ultimate, Templars can time Purifying Light with Crescent Sweep and Puncturing Sweeps on top of all their AoE DoTs, DKs can time Flames of Oblivion with Molten Whip and Leap, Sorcs can time Haunting Curse with Crystal Frag, and Wardens can time Shalks with their ultimates. The key point here is all of these classes have some form of delayed burst to time with other abilities. Magblades however, don't have any. All their damage aren't delayed, so by the time they setup a combo, their opponent has already evaded it.
These are the reasons why Magblade is so bad right now. All ZOS has to do is give them a good class burst heal and make Relentless Focus a true delayed burst ability, then magblade will actually be good.
Now moving on to Cloak. It isn't insanely overpowered, but extremely stacked compared to other abilities. You press one button and get 5 different things:
1) A 100% chance to crit your next heal or direct dmg ability
2) A 6s armor buff which increases to 9s if you run the standard 5-2 setup
3) An instant 3s LoS that can only be broken by direct AoE dmg or stealth detection
4) A budget "purge" as it suppresses single target DoTs
5) An extra slot as you don't need to slot an armor buff ability like other classes
The only ability that can closely match Cloak right now is Streak. You press one button and get 4 different things:
1) A 15m gap closer
2) A 15m distance creator
3) An irresistible AoE stun
4) An AoE direct dmg with a slightly low tooltip (1-3k) that acts as a soft NB counter
Both abilities are very stacked, but Streak cannot match Cloak in terms of utility for solo PvP. However, it outclasses cloak in group utility. So depending on the situation, I can say Cloak > Streak or Streak > Cloak. I think people who think 1 ability is more OP than the other are just not playing all aspects of PvP.
If you play other classes, then you might find both Cloak and Streak to be extremely annoying. Would I say they are OP? No, because those abilities were designed to compensate for Sorc and NB lacking good heals. Would I say they are annoying? Definitely, because I have to either slot an ability that is usually useless against other classes, or use a potion that isn't as strong as other ones, just to counter these two abilities. Basically, I have to go out of my way to counter these two classes, which becomes an annoyance. Again, this is something ZOS can totally address by giving people more useful counters. Personally, I would prefer ZOS to just buff Sorc and NB's healing so they don't have to rely on Cloak or Streak. They are homogenizing everything, so they might as well do that with Sorc and NB.
Hope that answers your question
xylena_lazarow wrote: »It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane
Yeah because it's balanced when one ability performs 3 different roles: Armor buff, AoE DoT and also magelight. As perfectly balanced as streak.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane
Yeah because it's balanced when one ability performs 3 different roles: Armor buff, AoE DoT and also magelight. As perfectly balanced as streak.
If you want to go that route then it’s perfectly balanced when Surprise Attack performs 4 different roles: Armor Buff, Armor Debuff, Stun, & also deals 7-10k spammable damage. As perfectly balanced as cloak which also buffs armor, guarantees a crit heal or crit dmg, suppresses single target DoTs, and is an on demand LoS ability.
-Sarcasm off-
Cloak was already too powerful, and it got buffed in waking flame, not nerfed.
They also buffed reveal spells, but they are still very expensive.
WaywardArgonian wrote: »I honestly have no idea what does/doesn't pull me out of cloak anymore. Could've sworn I got pulled out by Caltrops the other day but sometimes it just seems like a complete gamble.
I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists. I genuinely mean that, I would like an explanation. I have seen videos of highly skilled magblades who actually end up using dark cloak.
It also amazes me that sorcs who vehemently defend streak/bol(which I think is fine) turn around and say cloak is overtuned/OP. The logic they use to defend streak/bold somehow doesnt seem to apply to cloak. It sounds the same to me .
Nightblades are not hard to counter in this game. But you have to know how. The same applies to sorcs.
I mained stamblade for 7 months and got alliance rank 32, magsorc for 6 months then converted to stamsorc main for 3 years and got alliance rank 50. I've done all types of PvP on both NB and Sorc, from dueling to 1vX, small scale to large scale, Cyrodiil to BG, and even ganking. I think I'm qualified enough to answer your question.
Magblade actually does very well in group PvP as a bomber. You'll often see full damage bombblades in an organized ball group. However, it consistently ranks near the bottom of PvP tier list for solo PvP because it lacks 2 key things:
1) A good class burst heal
2) A reliable burst combo
Most magicka classes have a good class burst heal. Necros have Resistant Flesh, Templars have Honor of the Dead, DKs have Coagulating Blood, Sorcs have Twilight. Wardens are an exception as their burst heals aren't as powerful, but they still have a burst heal. Meanwhile, magblades have none, so when they get bursted to near death, they have no way to escape the execute phase. Good magblades will usually block shade with HoTs rolling, but if they have several DoTs on them it's pretty easy to execute through their HoTs and block. Most good magblades nowadays have transitioned to melee builds though because it's better. They can play like a stamblade, while having much better heals with Dark Cloak + Rapid Regen + Blessing of Restoration (which is actually a very good universal burst heal for magicka classes).
Most magicka classes also have a reliable burst combo. Necros can time Blastbones with their ultimate, Templars can time Purifying Light with Crescent Sweep and Puncturing Sweeps on top of all their AoE DoTs, DKs can time Flames of Oblivion with Molten Whip and Leap, Sorcs can time Haunting Curse with Crystal Frag, and Wardens can time Shalks with their ultimates. The key point here is all of these classes have some form of delayed burst to time with other abilities. Magblades however, don't have any. All their damage aren't delayed, so by the time they setup a combo, their opponent has already evaded it.
These are the reasons why Magblade is so bad right now. All ZOS has to do is give them a good class burst heal and make Relentless Focus a true delayed burst ability, then magblade will actually be good.
Now moving on to Cloak. It isn't insanely overpowered, but extremely stacked compared to other abilities. You press one button and get 5 different things:
1) A 100% chance to crit your next heal or direct dmg ability
2) A 6s armor buff which increases to 9s if you run the standard 5-2 setup
3) An instant 3s LoS that can only be broken by direct AoE dmg or stealth detection
4) A budget "purge" as it suppresses single target DoTs
5) An extra slot as you don't need to slot an armor buff ability like other classes
The only ability that can closely match Cloak right now is Streak. You press one button and get 4 different things:
1) A 15m gap closer
2) A 15m distance creator
3) An irresistible AoE stun
4) An AoE direct dmg with a slightly low tooltip (1-3k) that acts as a soft NB counter
Both abilities are very stacked, but Streak cannot match Cloak in terms of utility for solo PvP. However, it outclasses cloak in group utility. So depending on the situation, I can say Cloak > Streak or Streak > Cloak. I think people who think 1 ability is more OP than the other are just not playing all aspects of PvP.
If you play other classes, then you might find both Cloak and Streak to be extremely annoying. Would I say they are OP? No, because those abilities were designed to compensate for Sorc and NB lacking good heals. Would I say they are annoying? Definitely, because I have to either slot an ability that is usually useless against other classes, or use a potion that isn't as strong as other ones, just to counter these two abilities. Basically, I have to go out of my way to counter these two classes, which becomes an annoyance. Again, this is something ZOS can totally address by giving people more useful counters. Personally, I would prefer ZOS to just buff Sorc and NB's healing so they don't have to rely on Cloak or Streak. They are homogenizing everything, so they might as well do that with Sorc and NB.
Hope that answers your question
If you gave NB a burst heals then you need to eliminate cloak since that is the reason, they don’t have a burst heal in the first place.
Sorcerer has a great burst heal in Twilight Matriarch it’s a better heal then most. It cost 1000 less then Honor The Dead not counting the free damage and LOS issues it gives the Sorcerer. Sure, you must double bar it, but they do get extra benefits in return for that requirement not counting the extra double heal at full strength which is a great group utility.
As far as cloak my biggest problems with it is the suppression of single target DoTs. Which it should not in my opinion, but ZOS could not figure how to code it, so it doesn’t take a NB out of cloak every tick. Instead ZOS choose just to suppressed them. Plus, it just makes sense that AOE’s damage abilities should also cause damage on the NB. I’m fine with it not taking them out of cloak like direct damage abilities but it shouldn’t negate them altogether either.
NB do also have a delayed type burst skill they can use in Grim Focus and its morphs. When you have it ready it is a good burst type skill, but it suffers the same as the other base classes compared to the 2 new classes.
Stay safe everyone and ZOS please fix the green tree micromanaging
NBs so used to crying nerf they can't recognise a buff when they see one.
NBs so used to crying nerf they can't recognise a buff when they see one.
Now I would be carefull with blanket statements like this.
Some may see this as a buff, like stamblades that cloak and may not be integral to their build. While other this can actually be seen as a nerf.
Losing the projectile force miss aspect to Cloak can be a HUGE damage increase to some builds, especially those that don't use dodge roll as preemptive defences, like magicka nb. And before anyone cries foul or that this aspect of cloak was unintended, it was an intended mechanic since release. So, this change of cloak is an actual nerf, the impact of which is dependent upon your playstyle/spec.
I would personally call this a buff for stamina NB's and a nerf for magicka NB's.
Yes, cloak is more reliable now (sort of) and it costs less to maintain for stamina builds, while seeing little to no impact on the damage mitigation aspect since they can and usually do, roll dodge ad nauseum.
However the damage incoming will actually increase for the mageblade, with little to no benefit, since they can and usually do, spam cloak.
So as you can see it's a matter of perspective.
NBs so used to crying nerf they can't recognise a buff when they see one.
Now I would be carefull with blanket statements like this.
Some may see this as a buff, like stamblades that cloak and may not be integral to their build. While other this can actually be seen as a nerf.
Losing the projectile force miss aspect to Cloak can be a HUGE damage increase to some builds, especially those that don't use dodge roll as preemptive defences, like magicka nb. And before anyone cries foul or that this aspect of cloak was unintended, it was an intended mechanic since release. So, this change of cloak is an actual nerf, the impact of which is dependent upon your playstyle/spec.
I would personally call this a buff for stamina NB's and a nerf for magicka NB's.
Yes, cloak is more reliable now (sort of) and it costs less to maintain for stamina builds, while seeing little to no impact on the damage mitigation aspect since they can and usually do, roll dodge ad nauseum.
However the damage incoming will actually increase for the mageblade, with little to no benefit, since they can and usually do, spam cloak.
So as you can see it's a matter of perspective.
Yeah, if you're LITERALLY only considering the projectile force miss aspect but that's hardly the only change. Which are buffs.
I appreciate you all that took time to answer my question. Do you all feel that if magblade was given a good burst heal, it would push them into OP territory? Cloak/burst heal? Would it be beneficial to give them a good burst heal THEN give cloak the "ramping cost" treatment?
It sounds like cloak cannot overcome the lack of a burst heal or the assasinswill/swallow soul/soul harvest "dodgeability" issue.
I appreciate you all that took time to answer my question. Do you all feel that if magblade was given a good burst heal, it would push them into OP territory? Cloak/burst heal? Would it be beneficial to give them a good burst heal THEN give cloak the "ramping cost" treatment?
It sounds like cloak cannot overcome the lack of a burst heal or the assasinswill/swallow soul/soul harvest "dodgeability" issue.
The most recent nerf to cloak essentially removes it from the game. What is the thinking behind allowing spammables to draw NB out of cloak (jabs, whirling blades, poison inject), but not ground AoE (caltrops, shalks)?
Is it just to remove all skill requirements from play and make the game as "mash one button" as possible?
Cloak was a little underpowered prior to the recent update, and now it is basically a gimped skill.