Cloak has essentially been removed from the game

rbfrgsp · September 2021

The most recent nerf to cloak essentially removes it from the game. What is the thinking behind allowing spammables to draw NB out of cloak (jabs, whirling blades, poison inject), but not ground AoE (caltrops, shalks)?

Is it just to remove all skill requirements from play and make the game as "mash one button" as possible?

Cloak was a little underpowered prior to the recent update, and now it is basically a gimped skill.

WaywardArgonian · September 2021

I honestly have no idea what does/doesn't pull me out of cloak anymore. Could've sworn I got pulled out by Caltrops the other day but sometimes it just seems like a complete gamble.

Vevvev · September 2021

Those spammables have always allowed one to pull someone out of cloak. They just made it so all sources of damage don't pull you out, and that certain effects that'd target you before won't. In essence they buffed cloak, but even then if I was using it I wouldn't stand in AoE since wherever there is AoE there is probably something considered direct damage that'd pull you out still.

colossalvoids · September 2021

I mostly have a problem when the game says I'm cloaked and apparently I'm already not because a pot or reveal effect so I continue draining my resource thinking I'm still repositioning and not just burning all my mag pool for no reason. Other than that it's pretty consistent, at least in smaller environments like IC.

the1andonlyskwex · September 2021

It appears not everyone agrees: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/584587/so-hows-the-new-cloak

rbfrgsp · September 2021

It's not a buff. It's materially a nerf.

theCampeR_ · September 2021

So wait, previously all the abilities you mentioned pulled you out from cloak. and now only direct damage AOEs will pull you out of cloak. Somehow it's a nerf to cloak?

Guide us through the thought process here.

Danse_Mayhem · September 2021

How is it even a nerf? If less pulls you out of stealth now than before thats called a buff lol.

ResidentContrarian · September 2021

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

How is it even a nerf? If less pulls you out of stealth now than before thats called a buff lol.

I don't get it either. I have no issues cloaking on my NB, granted they did fix the ability to abuse forced miss.

Even avoiding jabs or any other melee skill is as easy as rolling, cloaking, and turning around with offense before they can uncloak you (relatively easier).

Forced miss for all single target skills was too strong and was a band-aid for what they have on live anyway, and cloak is still the only skill that gives you a massive offensive and defensive benefit in the game since you can't be targeted, gain damage reduction on cast (passive), and gain damage increases.

Let's not get into the build benefits of having a skill like that and what it ultimately allows you to do vs. the other classes...

vesselwiththepestle · September 2021

Cloak has been buffed.

Please keep in mind that you are immune to all dots while you are cloaked. It is much harder to get a nb out of cloak now, because you can't reveal nightblades with ground aoe anymore, only with direct aoe damage.

rbfrgsp · September 2021

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

How is it even a nerf? If less pulls you out of stealth now than before thats called a buff lol.

I am being pulled out of cloak by basically everything, randomly - light attacks, staff heavy attacks, spin2win, siege weapons. Anything. If this was not what was intended, then the implementation needs more tests because that's what is happening in live encounters. Zero skill requirements when all effects are applied or nullified randomly.

rbfrgsp · September 2021

Cloak has never been a massive offensive and defensive advantage. It has been the key gameplay mechanism in place for a class that is forced to evade rather than heal through damage.

Put it this way, if your class heals were buffed 5%, but would randomly provide zero heals "every so often", would you view that as a buff or a nerf? Because by the numbers alone that would be a buff. But reality would say differently.

rbfrgsp · September 2021

theCampeR_ wrote: »

So wait, previously all the abilities you mentioned pulled you out from cloak. and now only direct damage AOEs will pull you out of cloak. Somehow it's a nerf to cloak?

Guide us through the thought process here.

Lightning staff heavy attack, light attacks etc did not break cloak. Now they do.

NagualV · September 2021

Someone linked the cloak thread I started some time ago, and since I started that thread I've had an opportunity to use the new cloak. I agree with most of the responses in that thread - cloak does not feel nerfed in my opinion. It does seem more reliable.

rbfrgsp · September 2021

I politely disagree with your findings. I wonder how many of the comments are from people playing as Nightblades, and how many playing against?

Tommy_The_Gun · September 2021

From my experience (so far) it seems that random bugs in which something (that is not supposed to pull you out of stealth), pulls you out of inviability, still occur, but very rarely. The other bug (projectile fired before you cloaked & hits you after you cloaked) is not supposed to remove invisibility - but it still does, despite Patch Notes saying something different. That bug is still not fixed.

Also, counters (revealing abilities) were buffed to the point that very often it is impossible to stay invisible, even if 100% of cloak - related bugs were to be fixed.
Add new sets to the mix (AOE dmg with hard CC) and it is pretty much a death sentence to any NB build that relies mostly on cloak to survive.

VD resource bombers are also pretty much gone as it is extremely hard (and often impossible) to approach a group of players undetected. You can pretty much only do it during larger fight, when a group of players is busy fighting with some one else.

So overall, cloak feels kinda more reliable... if it wont bug-out. Imho it is either the same, or worse (or a nerf if you take into account buffed counters), as a lot of bugs are still not fixed (sure, some were fixed, but not all). Also, in case of PvE mobs - those still have this annoying behaviour and when they are "thinking of attacking you" (even if you pass by them invisible / cloaked) - they will remove cloak & invisibility not by dealing dmg to you, but simply casting abilities on you.

TLDR:
Cloak feels kinda more reliable (it is less likely to bug-out than before), but definitely less powerful (nerfed) due to extremely buffed counters and AOE meta sets.

divnyi · September 2021

rbfrgsp wrote: »

theCampeR_ wrote: »

So wait, previously all the abilities you mentioned pulled you out from cloak. and now only direct damage AOEs will pull you out of cloak. Somehow it's a nerf to cloak?

Guide us through the thought process here.

Lightning staff heavy attack, light attacks etc did not break cloak. Now they do.

No, they don't. I play heavy attack build so I know. I need to pull NBs with radiant to kill.

Which, btw, now works as intended.

katorga · September 2021

divnyi wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

theCampeR_ wrote: »

So wait, previously all the abilities you mentioned pulled you out from cloak. and now only direct damage AOEs will pull you out of cloak. Somehow it's a nerf to cloak?

Guide us through the thought process here.

Lightning staff heavy attack, light attacks etc did not break cloak. Now they do.

No, they don't. I play heavy attack build so I know. I need to pull NBs with radiant to kill.

Which, btw, now works as intended.

Logically, any ground effect should dispel cloak, imo. Every other attack should not. Make them have to zig and zag.

Right now, even detect pots are not certain to work.

MalakithAlamahdi · September 2021

Cloak is still as dumb as ever. I can either hit people in cloak with skills such as flare without them getting pulled out the entire fight or they cloak away and get revealed right away, there is little in the middle. It's always frustrating to play against or you barely notice it exists.

Cloak should've had the dodge/ streak treatment years ago, and the counter skills seriously need to get looked at, needing to use pods to counter a skill that can be spammed is really bad design imo. And that is IF the pods work to begin with, which they often don't.

At the same time cloak needs to be more reliable so that its still worth slotting/ using for NB's.

I also haven't noticed a nerf to cloak, most people seem to have no issues using it as far as I've seen.

divnyi · September 2021

katorga wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

rbfrgsp wrote: »

theCampeR_ wrote: »

So wait, previously all the abilities you mentioned pulled you out from cloak. and now only direct damage AOEs will pull you out of cloak. Somehow it's a nerf to cloak?

Guide us through the thought process here.

Lightning staff heavy attack, light attacks etc did not break cloak. Now they do.

No, they don't. I play heavy attack build so I know. I need to pull NBs with radiant to kill.

Which, btw, now works as intended.

Logically, any ground effect should dispel cloak, imo. Every other attack should not.

Ground effects are generally dots. Dots should not pull out of stealth. Direct damage AoEs should.
I guess exception is getting hit by enchant proc from ground AoE, which would be direct damage.

vesselwiththepestle · September 2021

divnyi wrote: »

Ground effects are generally dots. Dots should not pull out of stealth. Direct damage AoEs should.
I guess exception is getting hit by enchant proc from ground AoE, which would be direct damage.

Dots should deal damage. Right now they don't. When I hammer you with my Dawnbreaker or put Venomous Claw or Noxious Breath on you, why does cloak make you avoid all the damage over time? It's stupid.

Players are using more detection mechanisms, which is a good thing and when I get pulled out of stealth it's usually a detect pot or a detect skill. When I get pulled out of stealth/cloak by other means, it's because I was trying to retreat from a failed gank/attack and I am rightfully getting those Jabs, Engulfing Flames, Steel Tornado, whatever spammed on me. I should not be able to just cloak and avoid that. We've got the Shadow for that.

MadeInVN · September 2021

Last patch I made a build specifically to counter stamblades by stacking 3 sources of AoE DoTs (Caltrops, Bladecloak, and Hurricane) and 1 AoE direct damage (Whirling Blades). Now, only Whirling Blades pull NBs out of stealth.

So tell me exactly how this is a cloak nerf?

MadeInVN · September 2021

rbfrgsp wrote: »

Cloak has never been a massive offensive and defensive advantage. It has been the key gameplay mechanism in place for a class that is forced to evade rather than heal through damage.

Put it this way, if your class heals were buffed 5%, but would randomly provide zero heals "every so often", would you view that as a buff or a nerf? Because by the numbers alone that would be a buff. But reality would say differently.

Cloak is the only ability in the game that guarantees your next ability to crit. That's like a massive advantage right now, considering crit damage is easy to stack and most people have <2000 crit resistance. So while 5 classes struggle to get enough crit chance or are forced to use mech acuity for reliable crits, nbs can just cast their defensive ability and get a free mech acuity 5th bonus at will lol.

techyeshic · September 2021

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Ground effects are generally dots. Dots should not pull out of stealth. Direct damage AoEs should.
I guess exception is getting hit by enchant proc from ground AoE, which would be direct damage.

Dots should deal damage. Right now they don't. When I hammer you with my Dawnbreaker or put Venomous Claw or Noxious Breath on you, why does cloak make you avoid all the damage over time? It's stupid.

Players are using more detection mechanisms, which is a good thing and when I get pulled out of stealth it's usually a detect pot or a detect skill. When I get pulled out of stealth/cloak by other means, it's because I was trying to retreat from a failed gank/attack and I am rightfully getting those Jabs, Engulfing Flames, Steel Tornado, whatever spammed on me. I should not be able to just cloak and avoid that. We've got the Shadow for that.

I thought they changed it to where you now take damage from DOTs in cloak, but just dont get pulled out of cloak?

josh.lackey_ESO · September 2021

1) You're wrong, Cloak got a buff. It's an absurdly overpowered "god mode" ability and always has been. (Cannot be targeted, cannot be seen, damage suppressed, double damage dealt [guaranteed crit])

2) Cloak SHOULD be completely removed from PvP. There is no way to balance spammable, permanent invisibility. It should only be for PvE.

The only invisibility should come from potions.

Zekka · September 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Ground effects are generally dots. Dots should not pull out of stealth. Direct damage AoEs should.
I guess exception is getting hit by enchant proc from ground AoE, which would be direct damage.

Dots should deal damage. Right now they don't. When I hammer you with my Dawnbreaker or put Venomous Claw or Noxious Breath on you, why does cloak make you avoid all the damage over time? It's stupid.

Players are using more detection mechanisms, which is a good thing and when I get pulled out of stealth it's usually a detect pot or a detect skill. When I get pulled out of stealth/cloak by other means, it's because I was trying to retreat from a failed gank/attack and I am rightfully getting those Jabs, Engulfing Flames, Steel Tornado, whatever spammed on me. I should not be able to just cloak and avoid that. We've got the Shadow for that.

I thought they changed it to where you now take damage from DOTs in cloak, but just dont get pulled out of cloak?

That is true only for ground based AoE DoTs like Caltrops, Wall of Elements etc... Cloak still suppresses applied DoTs like Venomous Claw or Dawnbreaker.
That's why a lot of "good" (stam)nightblades were scared after the cloak rework announcement, they thought ZOS finally took the very generous DoT damage suppression (that isn't even mentionned in the tooltip) away.

Jaimeh · September 2021

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

I honestly have no idea what does/doesn't pull me out of cloak anymore. Could've sworn I got pulled out by Caltrops the other day but sometimes it just seems like a complete gamble.

Same, I just cloak and pray

rbfrgsp · September 2021

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

1) You're wrong, Cloak got a buff. It's an absurdly overpowered "god mode" ability and always has been. (Cannot be targeted, cannot be seen, damage suppressed, double damage dealt [guaranteed crit])

2) Cloak SHOULD be completely removed from PvP. There is no way to balance spammable, permanent invisibility. It should only be for PvE.

The only invisibility should come from potions.

You have never played as Nightblade in Cyrodiil.

MihailioG · September 2021

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

1) You're wrong, Cloak got a buff. It's an absurdly overpowered "god mode" ability and always has been. (Cannot be targeted, cannot be seen, damage suppressed, double damage dealt [guaranteed crit])

2) Cloak SHOULD be completely removed from PvP. There is no way to balance spammable, permanent invisibility. It should only be for PvE.

The only invisibility should come from potions.

Cloak got a buff yes,but saying its god mode is just lol,you can break cloak if you predict target movement with almost every class certain skills so you are totaly wrong with 1.

2. Maybe nightblade shuld be able only to light attack,then you can be happy with it.

vesselwiththepestle · September 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

I thought they changed it to where you now take damage from DOTs in cloak, but just dont get pulled out of cloak?

I recommend to test stuff like that yourself. I am immune to DOTs while cloaked. Although I use cloak 99% in the offense, to prepare a bomb on my Magblade or to gank on my Stamblade. So being immune to all DOTs isn't that important for me.

The best thing is, with being able to start a gank with a guaranteed Uppercut crit with vampire bonus to weapon damage and dealing damage from 3 skills, 1 medium attack, 1 light attack all within 1 GCD makes Cloak worth it for me.

xylena_lazarow · September 2021

It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane and Destro Ult can no longer be used to reveal cloaked enemies. It makes no sense, and forces you into even more narrow and build-warping tools if you want to actually fight a NB.